Games The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original version and expansion packs)

[blai]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

It's rank 12 but still, very good job, wish I had it so I could join you

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

Ranks really don't mean much since it's a very new division. Points as a display of skill might work in a couple of weeks when there have been enough games played as a comparison. My games for example were all played when I was in diamond exept for 1w 1l, so the score are just derivated from my former diamond score, which was not "defined" yet because I didn't play that much - score need a broad statistical database to be precise as a measurement, and 50 games definitly isn't one (200-300 might be).

 

[blai]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

I know, that's why I said "rank 12 but still...." since you might as well rise quick or fall quick b/c it's such a young season.

 

[cracker]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

The bar was set so high with the originals. SC 2 storymode was good, but for something that I waited almost 10 years for it could have been much, much better. What really got me into Sc was the story more than anything, I only really started to appreciate that gameplay sometime after.

The plotting, the backstabbing, double crossing...it was brilliant, felt like what a war should be all about (not that actual wars are anything good)

Not to mention brilliant characterizations and memorable dialogue, I can still quote stuff. I'm waiting for the expansions maybe at the end of journey the wait would have been worthwhile afterall.

 

[kkck]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

Well, in the original starcraft we could see past a single character which I guess makes a big difference. I mean, it started with raynor joining mensk, then working for him and quitting.... We saw the perspectives of so many of them even though would could only see their faces. In turn with starcraft II most of what we saw was from raynor's perspective. I felt the storyline was a bit limited in that. The storyline had a much limited scope in comparison to the original. This time we saw raynor and his 300 soldiers while before it was a mass scale interplanetary conflict with constant changes in power. To be fair though, we are still two expansion packs short so it is perhaps still far to early to compare the story lines.

 

[cracker]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

Well, in the original starcraft we could see past a single character which I guess makes a big difference. I mean, it started with raynor joining mensk, then working for him and quitting.... We saw the perspectives of so many of them even though would could only see their faces. In turn with starcraft II most of what we saw was from raynor's perspective. I felt the storyline was a bit limited in that. The storyline had a much limited scope in comparison to the original. This time we saw raynor and his 300 soldiers while before it was a mass scale interplanetary conflict with constant changes in power. To be fair though, we are still two expansion packs short so it is perhaps still far to early to compare the story lines.

Well I kinda did say that, didn't I?

Either way something 10 years in making could have been better...look at James Cameron Avatar (for those who experienced it in theatres know what I'm talking about)

They do have two more games to kinda turn it around but they got off on a bad foot

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

SC2 Storyline and staging definitly was far worse than in every Blizzard title before.
All the characters are so absolutely stereotype, it feels so cheaply staged and so one-dimensional.
It's become really bad because it now focusses so much on one character's struggles, so that we really see all of it. Before that, most characters were kinda mysterious, we knew a little about them but not all of it, and all were kinda cool and interesting. But these are just so 300% cliche, really boring

Also trying to be moralist, but beeing so in a very superficial way. All of the high quality visuals combined with this really flat content made it feel like any random hollywood movie of transformers-type: Looking great, but there's nothing beneath the surface. I think they really adapted themselves to Hollywood mainstream in SC, because they wanted to imrpove their staging, but ultimately made it just worse this way (exept for <12yr old boys).

 

[cracker]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

I basically agree with everything you have said expect for the first line, Warcraft 3 expansion to me was the worst. The storylines were fucking terrible, I almost died going through the human (wtf elves???) and nightelves storylines -___-

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

I basically agree with everything you have said expect for the first line, Warcraft 3 expansion to me was the worst. The storylines were fucking terrible, I almost died going through the human (wtf elves???) and nightelves storylines -___-

Ah okay that one doesn't count, nobody would take it seriously anyways
Same for WoW, they screwed up Warcraft universe and nobody cares because it's not Warcraft 4

Quite some of my fellow students have SC2, sadly all or most of them are only bronze players it seems

Oh, about blizzard going for cliche and superficial wannabecool stuff: Check out the Diablo 3 demon hunter trailer... so cliche hollywood bullshit with running around with two guns (no, even more stupid, two one-handed rapid firing crossbows...) and stuff

Btw if anyone would be up for a round of Starcraft 2 (Europe server) or SC:BW (any server), pm me
(also playing 2v2, don't worry if you feel nooby, I play with anyone ^^)

---

Since I was just stumbling about this topic in off topic area: Table of Major Tournaments and Price Pools

132,00$ allone for one month of GSL (Code A and B) which is a monthly tournament! 100,000$ for NASL. 100,000$ for GSL World Invitational. 15,000$ for a half-day 8 players tournament in Dreamhack Invitational.
SC2 sure has become huge already. Even though nothing yet overcame first two GSL Seasons: 180,000$ each for season one and two... This earned NesTea and Fruitdealer, S1/S2 champions, almost 90,000$ each!

 

[kkck]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

As far as storyline is concerned with starcraft II what bothers me the most is that it is not that different from warcraft(which makes sense since it is the same dude who makes both of them).

Zerg == undead
Protoss == night elves
Hybrid == burning legion
voice in the darkness (or whatever appeared in zeratul's vision) == archimonde/kiljaiden
kerrigan == arthas/lich king
tassadar == malfurion
tycus == grom hellscream
overmind == lich king
xel naga == titans

Then you add in more technology, change the power of nature to the khala and arcane to dark templar energies. Obviously there are differences but that still does not change that the basic concept is essentially the same.

As far as the personalities being outright generic, I am not so sure(except for tycus, he was fairly standard through most of the game although the expanded universe around him would suggest there was more to him). Overall I felt they kept the concepts they established in the original game fairly well. I did find certain things about Raynor's personality rather random. In the original expansion Raynor was supposed to have been left bitter and angry. Through most of Starcraft II that was only evident at very specific moments and I felt the transition to them was not overall all that good and rather random.

I was also creep out by the whole "friend Raynor" thing. It sounds too weird and I really don't remember him being called that in the original game. It's obviously minor but still lol.

The character that has baffled me the most in the series in kerrigan herself. I could understand her being like she is when she was controlled by the overmind but what about after he died? Why didn't she revert to her old self? Maybe her zerg body had instincs which drove her to be like that? Perhaps even going as far as having a prime directive towards that sort of action as the overmind himself had? Not necessarily having a prime directive to destroying everything considering the overmind himself did not necessarily want to do that but a prime directive towards stopping the hybrid at all cost. Anyways, how will he be affected by the xel naga artifact? Based on her hair and the fact that she will be returning in the zerg campaign I would think she was not completely de-infested however her personality should be affected right?

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

That "friend Raynor" was quite okay. The Protoss seem a very title-focussed society, so "Friend" probably is some kind of special title they (or at least Zeratul) gave to Raynor for beeing their perhaps first non-Protoss ally.

Still, the staging felt empty. Well done on the surface, but without beeing meaningful, touching or even actually cool. It all felt kind of embarassing rather, a failed attempt of creating a stylish atmosphere.
I'm currently playing a little broodwar again, also campaign, and it really feels a lot more authentic. Much cooler to follow the storyline.

I came back to Broodwar a bit, because I
1) managed to finally get it running without crashing on Win7
2) still think that it's fundamental design is much, much better than that of SC2. And many people share that mindset.
One example that makes a drastic difference: In Broodwar it was much easier to defend cost-efficiently. That means that I need less of an army to defend and can spread out more (take more bases, attack my opponent with little groups of units all over the map) as well as teching faster. It means that the game is more farspread all over the map with action everywhere and everytime.

SC2 in comparison often becomes to a one-push-decides-everything game, which is kind of annoying and boring. It means that both players assemble their army in front of their base (cost efficient defense isn't really possible anymore for a variety of reason, such as changed high-ground mechanics and the fact that units clump much more tightly in SC2 and thus can easier all move into attack position), because they need their army to defend. And then it all ends in one clash, the one ending up with the advantage of that usually wins either right away or a few minutes later.

Also see this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213083
And especially this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxzUWXO28dE
It might be just a little bit hard to follow without having ever seen Broodwar and obviously it has lower graphics (what doesn't really bother me at least though), but it's just aweeesome gameplay and a great comeback.

 

[kkck]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

Well, but why wouldn't the whole friend raynor thing be mentioned before? If they wanted such a title for raynor it seems as something which should have been given back in the original game. Dunno, for me it just sounds awkward and unnecessarily formal after the apparent comfort there seemed to be between the protoss and Raynor. It's not like we have seen such things when we see only protoss either.

Anyways, from reading those articles it just seems like the issue is the improved game mechanics which is a bit ironic. I never noticed how much of a skill it really was to maneuver the units through the keyboard. Obviously it is a bit of an issue when a strategy game comes to an end after one bit confrontation but I don't think they should try to make the game as the previous one though. The idea that a strategy game would depend so much on learning how to maneuver units through limited gameplay is rather awkward too. It's a strategy game so I would think the makers of the game would want to incorporate the improved gameplay to enhance the strategic part of the game. Of course, there can be a balance, there are things they could limit in terms of gameplay to improve the game. Overall I would think that unit clustering could be limited for one thing. Having a limit in terms of how many units you can control would be a good second step but in turn going back to 12 units at a time be a little too much.

Seriously, if it is a strategy game then it should not be about winning due to better button clicking (leave that for one person shotters) but rather because you went freaking Sun Tsu on someones ass.

On another note, I found the units used in the game you osted interesting interesting. Overall it was limited to lurkers, hydras, zerglings, dragons and zealots. I have never being into watching such games but in turn I was mildly surprised higher units did not come into play in a professional match.

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

Seriously, if it is a strategy game then it should not be about winning due to better button clicking (leave that for one person shotters) but rather because you went freaking Sun Tsu on someones ass.

On another note, I found the units used in the game you osted interesting interesting. Overall it was limited to lurkers, hydras, zerglings, dragons and zealots. I have never being into watching such games but in turn I was mildly surprised higher units did not come into play in a professional match.

Of course that's really extreme in Broodwar where one has to click a lot of buttons, but in SC2 it's kinda the opposite. The player having the stronger army at the point of clash will 99% win and there is nothing what can be done about it.

Now you might say "shouldn't the stronger army win?", but that's the problem: Because then only builds which aim for quickly building a strong army are viable, and this reduces the tactical choices much harder. It also means that one cannot go around the map and fight at several locations, because then one will lose to the single, united army of the opponent, and that makes gameplay dull.
This means that for the sake of tactical variation, it has to be possible to win a battle cost-efficiently, killing a stronger army with a weaker one - when the right circumstances are given, of course.

However, it's not that bad. Compared to like 98% of strategy games, the balance between defense and offense is still very very good. Just worse than that of Broodwar.

About the Broodwar video: Yeah, those are the army backbone units for most of the time, but there were also High Templars, Defiler, Shuttles, Dark Templars, Observers, Scourges and Ultralisks used, so ultimately most units of the tech tree, leaving aside only Reavers of Protoss, Air tech of Protoss and most of Zerg air tech (which however both are often used in other Protoss vs Zerg matches)

 

[kkck]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

Well, the largest army winning is really the scenario that makes the most sense in a completely direct confrontation however getting around that would be exactly what I meant by going Sun Tsu on someone. I think another big issue with this would be how spellcasters were changed. Defilers were changed for the infestor. The defiler would be an unit which provides an incredibly high tactical advantage and support as it has the cloud thingy and the corroding acid however it was replaced by the infestor which basically merely increases the number of units in the fight. I would see it as an issue when the main mage for a race ends up being a glorified melee unit. Not sure about how I feel about the dark archon being divided into the high templar and sentry. I guess the functionality remains roughly in the same athough perhaps maelstrom would be a bit overpowered with the whole better clustering of units seen in SC2. Not sure how much that unit would be used in pro matches though. I also miss the science vessel. I guess the version seen in the campaign would be too hax (battle-cruisers and siege tanks with healers!?) but in turn the old one had quite some uses.I guess ghosts would still have the emp shot but in turn they can't fly which would make a specific target harder to reach specially if there are detectors around. The turret guy is basically seems basically like a flying mechanical version of the infestor....

I recently played a few matches and I have to say I loved reapers. My opponent had two bases and once I upgraded their speed I could not help but enjoy sneaking them in and ridding him of probes in both bases.

---

On another note, I was reading online and apparently there is a connection between the mobious guy Narud and duran (which was first evidenced by the fact that narud is the reverse for duran). Now, this being the case then it seems extremely likely the entire terran campaign was manipulated to eliminate kerrigan. Even the relative youth of the artifacts collected through the missions would suggest such manipulation. Of course, kerrigan actually living would perhaps have been beyond the calculations of whoever actually planned this.

Thinking about it, the voice in the darkness was seen controlling the zerg in the vision. The zerg without an intelligence such as the overmind or kerrigan are nothing but ferral and viral creatures, in that sense kerrigan's death would easily allow another powerful force to take control.

The next expansion is supposed to focus on kerrigan going through mutations to increase her own power and increasingly get more control of more zerg. It would be interesting if at some point we actually see the hybrid as a force competing for control over the zerg. Also, if the deinfestation did result in her regressing to who she was back in the first terran campaign to some extent then perhaps the most likely scenario is that she will collaborate with protoss and terrans to some extent to fight the hybrid.


On another note, this could be a massive spoiler. This video was released on youtube and is apparently the leaked ending of the next expansion. I found it very interesting. Watch at your own risk to be spoiled.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_-_rGcF7rY

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

Of course sidestepping a big fight only makes sense with a weaker army, but it's questionable to what amount that's possible. Well, gonna see whether SC2 ever lives up to Brood War.

The whole Science Vessel/Raven thing: I think Ravens are quite fine to replace science vessels, but there is a huge difference in SC2 and BW armies: In Broodwar, one would usually have much, much more spare gas to spend on tricky caster units such as science vessels (which actually cost 225 gas even!).
In SC2, fighting units tend to cost a lot more gas instead: MMM (Marine-Marauder-Medivac) for example: in BW one would only have Marine-Medic, with only medic costing gas, and a lot less than medivacs, too. Siege Tank gas costs were also increased, also players playing Mech only would now go Siegetank - Thor - Hellion, which is a lot more gas than Tank - Vulture.

For Protoss it's the same: Now Protoss have to use a lot of Sentries and Colossi, both extremely heavy on gas (100 for sentry, 200 for colossus), which makes it hard to go for High Templars.
Archons became kinda useless now, all they are good for is having a last use for empty HTs.

 

[kkck]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

Well, I guess the raven does work but I do think it is mostly because the science vessel abilities were split between ghosts and battle cruisers(except for irradiate). I guess using EMP shockwave against the protoss should be a lot faster than what it used to be and there should be more shots available as you are more likely to have more ghosts than what you would have had science vessels. Basically since the science vessel abilities were split between other units the raven is still indeed a bit of an addition. I still don't like its missile and turret thingy though. I guess they do make good support as a summoner of sorts but I would still prefer actual spells.

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

Hunter-Seeker-Missile is pretty strong and it requires even less tech than Science Vessels did for Iradiate. It's just that nobody could afford the gas for several ravens anymore. Science Vessels didn't have a single spell exept for the shield one iirc without research even.
I think Vessel and Raven are relatively even ultimately, it's just the two factors that make the difference:
1) Less detection required vs Zerg because there are no Lurkers
2) Less gas available for tech units, more required for army
----------------------------------------------------------
Just felt like sharing two of the most epic SC2-related "troll" or fun posts:
"The Hydraroach"
Terrans - A Race for Real Men

About actual SC2:
-I'm currently switching from Protoss to Zerg. Perhaps completely, perhaps just a little Zerg really is very different from P and T so it took a little to adjust to it, but I can beat platinum players safely and diamond players at an acceptable rate now.
For beginners, just playing Roach-Hydra-massss infestor is really great. Playing many Lings is a little more complicated, because it means to not ever miss a single larva inject on queens.
Macroing really is hard in later game, I never have enough Hatches and don't inject enough, I'm often ending on 2000 minerals x_x
-I don't find much time to play and don't ladder at all Sitting at low master league rank, only playing custom games.

---------- Post added May 31, 2011 at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was May 16, 2011 at 07:48 PM ----------

Should've posted it right here

SC2 Heart of the Swarm Info

Fairly interesting stuff. If that is true then I would actually be surprised about there being other sentient creatures besides kerrigan within the zerg. I always thought that before kerrigan the sole sentient creatures were the overmind and celebrates and with the demise of the overmind and the eventual slaughter of the celebrates it was kerrigan who was the sole consciousness behind the zerg. I guess this makes things more interesting plotwise as the zerg could be a bit more than ferral creatures with a puppetmaster in this scenario. I am still curious as for how the deinfestation affected kerrigan's personality, I thought that particular event would lead to her regressing a bit towards her older personality.

It seems she is forming a totally new character now, just based on the scrambles of memory she still has. It's certainly gonna be interesting to see her acting now.
As about independend Zerg creatures: I think that independency was once said that this is the gift that Kerrigan brought to the Zerg. That might've been back in Broodwar campaign, possibly.

Btw: Most info this trailer provides, and that everybody had been looking for: Kerrigan's new hair style! I approve of it

 

[kkck]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

I guess it would make sense if kerrigan's personality ends up being something in the middle between her former human self and her zerg self before her infestation. I do recall the overmind making a mention of kerrigans personality but in turn he also did mention she was bound to him as any other celebrate. Or maybe you refer to the bit of her being the key to freedom from the voice in the darkness?

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

I guess it would make sense if kerrigan's personality ends up being something in the middle between her former human self and her zerg self before her infestation. I do recall the overmind making a mention of kerrigans personality but in turn he also did mention she was bound to him as any other celebrate. Or maybe you refer to the bit of her being the key to freedom from the voice in the darkness?

Dunno exactly, but it was about her beeing the one to bring freedom to the zerg. A somewhat democratical thought, after they have always been mindless creatures ruled by dicators so to say

It seems you are right about her beeing somewhere between Zerg and Human. Some previews on German pages said that it is possible to develop Kerrigan's abilities during the campaign, and during that she ever becomes more human looking or more zerg like. In most extreme case she can look as Zergy as she did in Wings of Liberty.

HOTS-Campaign will have 20 missions, and Kerrigan will always be part of the player's army. She can't pick up equipment or something like that, but become stronger (more hp, cause more damage, gain more energy, cast better spells and so on), to add a little bit of an RPG touch to it.

---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 AM ----------

In an interview Blizzard (Dustin Browder in this case speaking for them) say that they were totally amazed by how players would use units, especially:
-MarineKingPrime (MKP) who showed how Marines can be used against Banelings (by splitting them up rapidly, so that banelings only kill single Marines and thus aren't cost effective anymore)
-NesTea as the best Zerg, who actually performed a spine crawler rush versus Protoss and won because of that. (He played a super fast tech against a forge/cannon expanding Zerg, used an overlord to create creep in front of the Protosses' base and built spinecrawlers there )

We might see a Nestea or MKP tribute mission in HOTS, who knows

 

[kkck]

Re: The StarCraft 2 Thread (also includes original vesion and expansion packs)

I would find it a tad strange for us to be able to have that much control over kerrigan's evolution. I could understand us choosing some things but in turn going to deep into that would seem like something that could have a big impact in the story. Any amount of control we have over how kerrigan evolves can't be so significant that it will have an impact in the story for the sake of future coherence. Kinda like how nova/tosh storylines won't have an impact in what happens in later expansions.

The overmind did see kerrigan as the path to freedom for the zerg, that was the whole point of making her right? I do recall a previous trailer saying something about the zerg becoming more than what they are. I guess it is plausible for such a thing to happen if there are zerg within the swarm outside of kerrigan, celebrates or overmind who have personalities and wills of their own but I would still consider it too far fetched that every zerg out there has an individuality. I just can't imagine zerglings and banelings as more than ferral creatures lol. I wonder if perhaps a new overmind of sorts will be naturally born from the zerg though, that would make sense. If I recall, the original overmind was made by the xel naga from the collectiveness of consciousness of the zerg. In that sense even the original overmind was something in a few ways foreign to the zerg. The zerg are psionic creatures so perhaps at some point their collectiveness will once again form something like that except that it would be something completely natural to them without any external origins. I see it as a disenbodied consciousness so to speak, in that sense the zerg wouldn't be susceptible to being taken over by strong enough psionic creatures.

That said, how cannon are the starcraft novels? One of the novels actually reveals quite a bit about the xel naga and I really don't know if it actually counts within the starcraft universe. One of the novels mentions the xel naga and extremely long lived species who do not reproduce at all. Instead of that the next generation of xel naga is made by combining species with purity of form and purity of essense. The process itself is not some derange insane experiment but rather something about as natural as breathing is to us. The xel naga before being destroyed by the overmind did seem to finish their grand experiment as both the protoss and zerg had purity of form and essense so the final step is that both species will at some point naturally merge into the next iteration of xel naga. If this is the case then perhaps the zerg becoming something more in the next expansion is the final step before the zerg and protoss merge and become the xel naga. The hybrid we have seen so far is not what the xel naga had in mind when they were experimenting but rather it is an gross deviation from what they plan. I was thinking that perhaps the final expansion will deal with the actual merging of the zerg and protoss into xel naga. rather than having some huge army with terrans, protoss and zerg fighting for survival perhaps the last expansion will be about the final merger of both species as the means to oppose the hybrid. I guess the voice in the darkness not having control of the entire zerg (which is apparently already strong enough to take over the universe a few times) will play a big part too lol.