Seinen Tokyo Ghoul by Ishida Sui

[ShadowHeart]

You raise questions that I have dwelt on myself, so rather than schooling you, I can give you my interpretation of the matter.

From what I've seen, Eto never really mentioned peaceful coexistence, she only advocated ghoul freedom. She says she wants ghouls to stop being persecuted for what they are, but the details about how to make peace with humans and allow both species to live in relative harmony don't seem to figure into her design.

If we assume this, then it starts to make more sense why she never even attempted to portray ghouls in a way for humans to see that they aren't all monsters, instead shaping Aogiri Tree into an aggressive organization that either lured powerful human-hating ghouls into their ranks or coerced weaker ones into joining against their will, while directly opposing that very institution - the CCG - which, at the end of the day, is perceived by humans as the only line of defense against ghouls running free to murder and eat them all.

The biggest irony, in my opinion, lies in the consideration that while Eto's idol and inspiration was her human mother, she doesn't seem to care about humans as a whole at all - and while her father is the person she hated the most because of his opposite approach toward the goal of "breaking the birdcage", it might have been just Yoshimura's influence over Kaneki and Anteiku that lead him to become the One-Eyed King and create the possibility of humans and ghouls finally understanding each other.

Lastly, yes, the plan to wait for an adequate one-eyed ghoul to appear sounds really bad, so I guess it came up as a lucky occurrence which led Arima and Eto to change their original plans accordingly. Had there been no Kanou and no Kaneki, they would probably have tried something else, something I suppose would have been closer to Aogiri's brute-force methods.

Well once again you managed to to give a perspective on something TK related. God I hate Eto and Arima plan so I hope your right they had another in mind. But it really does seem like that was there only plan waiting for a ghoul strong enough to kill him. Honestly it's a blight on Tokyo Ghoul for me because that's how stupid I find it. Why do you think they never tried to destroy V themselves?

 

[Vandred]

Well once again you managed to to give a perspective on something TK related. God I hate Eto and Arima plan so I hope your right they had another in mind. But it really does seem like that was there only plan waiting for a ghoul strong enough to kill him. Honestly it's a blight on Tokyo Ghoul for me because that's how stupid I find it. Why do you think they never tried to destroy V themselves?

Yeah, I don't like how the whole business with Arima and Eto ended up either, which is something I believe I have remarked often enough.

As to why they never tried to actually oppose V, we still haven't given a good reason. I guess we'll have to wait and see whether we'll get one eventually or not...

 

[Lambu]

The plan is weird on its own, the major problem I have with it is that the reader has to guess too many details, especially when this page comes to mind:

Spoiler

I still dont understand Arima`s motivation when I remember this. There were other ways to carry on with the "Break Birdcage Plan" but he chose the one that dirtied his hands the most.
This just intrincate the things so much that the shocking revelation at the end of Cochlea arc (presumably the greatest of the series as a whole) raises more questions than answers, so it confused me quite a bit.

I hope there are still some details to reveal about the "master plan", like the suicidal nature of Eto with Aogiri and the alliance with Kanou.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Vandred and Lambu I love you both so much right now.

 

[Byron]

The plan is weird on its own, the major problem I have with it is that the reader has to guess too many details, especially when this page comes to mind:

Spoiler

I still dont understand Arima`s motivation when I remember this. There were other ways to carry on with the "Break Birdcage Plan" but he chose the one that dirtied his hands the most.
This just intrincate the things so much that the shocking revelation at the end of Cochlea arc (presumably the greatest of the series as a whole) raises more questions than answers, so it confused me quite a bit.

I hope there are still some details to reveal about the "master plan", like the suicidal nature of Eto with Aogiri and the alliance with Kanou.

Honestly it's kind of hillarious that I'm replying to this as I have no idea what you're discussing about. However, the other day I was thinking of that exact page and one thing came to my mind: The butterfly effect. Till now, I thought that butterfly was a way to show Arima's softer side, but I believe I was wrong. It's all about making choices and how each has consequences. In a sense, when Arima grabbed that butterfly, he was actually making a choice, following the butterfly in itself is a choice. And this reminds me of Kaneki's torture. Jason had given him a choice to save the mother or the child but he didn't choose so both died. I think this scenario is similar bu altered. The butterfly does not represent freedom or anything but rather, Arima letting go of the butterfly signifies him giving up on his life. You could say that he conspired with Eto but in the end, he never really took the initiative, he was just playing along with whatever chance arose. If Eto hadn't appeared, Arima would continue obeying orders without a doubt.

 

[Spirit]

Honestly it's kind of hillarious that I'm replying to this as I have no idea what you're discussing about. However, the other day I was thinking of that exact page and one thing came to my mind: The butterfly effect. Till now, I thought that butterfly was a way to show Arima's softer side, but I believe I was wrong. It's all about making choices and how each has consequences. In a sense, when Arima grabbed that butterfly, he was actually making a choice, following the butterfly in itself is a choice. And this reminds me of Kaneki's torture. Jason had given him a choice to save the mother or the child but he didn't choose so both died. I think this scenario is similar bu altered. The butterfly does not represent freedom or anything but rather, Arima letting go of the butterfly signifies him giving up on his life. You could say that he conspired with Eto but in the end, he never really took the initiative, he was just playing along with whatever chance arose. If Eto hadn't appeared, Arima would continue obeying orders without a doubt.

Have you ever seen Bleach? In that manga, they explain how the Butterfly is like a companion to a Shinigami, a God of Death. Now the fact that Arima is known as the Shinigami makes this little gem all the sweeter. That's what I thought of when I saw this anyway.

 

[Lambu]

Honestly it's kind of hillarious that I'm replying to this as I have no idea what you're discussing about. However, the other day I was thinking of that exact page and one thing came to my mind: The butterfly effect. Till now, I thought that butterfly was a way to show Arima's softer side, but I believe I was wrong. It's all about making choices and how each has consequences. In a sense, when Arima grabbed that butterfly, he was actually making a choice, following the butterfly in itself is a choice. And this reminds me of Kaneki's torture. Jason had given him a choice to save the mother or the child but he didn't choose so both died. I think this scenario is similar bu altered. The butterfly does not represent freedom or anything but rather, Arima letting go of the butterfly signifies him giving up on his life. You could say that he conspired with Eto but in the end, he never really took the initiative, he was just playing along with whatever chance arose. If Eto hadn't appeared, Arima would continue obeying orders without a doubt.

Its a nice way to see the meaning of the butterfly, actually its the way that a like the most of all the possible meanings, but I was not referring to the butterfly but to the words Arima says:

"I always hated to be the one who takes from others"

If that means he never wanted to kill all those people then why didn`t he do anything about it? Was he just another piece in the board for Eto? He was supposed to be the One Eyed King but did he just act that way to make all ghouls cheer for Kaneki when he kills him? It sounds so cheesy and surreal I just cant buy that, not with some extra explanation.
To resume what I said before, people can try to explain the plan but that is exactly the problem, it should be way clearer than it is but there are so many possible interpretations that the reader has to "fulfill" the explanation.

@WithYouInSpirit I loved that detail too, another meaning you could add to the butterfly.

 

[Byron]

Its a nice way to see the meaning of the butterfly, actually its the way that a like the most of all the possible meanings, but I was not referring to the butterfly but to the words Arima says:

"I always hated to be the one who takes from others"

If that means he never wanted to kill all those people then why didn`t he do anything about it? Was he just another piece in the board for Eto? He was supposed to be the One Eyed King but did he just act that way to make all ghouls cheer for Kaneki when he kills him? It sounds so cheesy and surreal I just cant buy that, not with some extra explanation.
To resume what I said before, people can try to explain the plan but that is exactly the problem, it should be way clearer than it is but there are so many possible interpretations that the reader has to "fulfill" the explanation.

@WithYouInSpirit I loved that detail too, another meaning you could add to the butterfly.

Yeah I have read Bleach, true.
As for that phrase. Well to me it proves exactly what I stated: he doesn't make a choice for himself and just shows his disgust for the choices that are given to him. You may want something more heroic but this is actually a very humane quality. Many people despise their lives but not to the point of actually trying to change them. For they have that little something that is sufficient enough to the point of not actually fighting for more even though they well deserve that more. Same with Arima, he's disgusted but that won't stop him from doing what he has always done; following a routine. He's just selfish. Even cooperating with Eto was out of pure hydonism. It may have seemed heroic but in the end, what exactly changed in his actions? Absolutely nothing, he just enriched his actions with a meaning. That doesn't mean that these actions for him truly gained some meaning but rather they started to entertain him a bit more as a reason was given to him to act. Again, he didn't take any initiatives. Yes, he did have left Eto and some others get away now and then but he didn't act; rather his contribution was specifically his inaction. Till now he was killing everyone indiscriminately wheareas afterwards he proceeded to do the same old only with few exeptions made. I truly don't believe that Arima was trying to help anyone at all. Yes he might have loved Kaneki but that's it. His life was meaningless, he has given up on making his own choices and got used so much to be degraded to a killing machine, that he couldn't see himself acting any differently. In the end, he cooperated with Eto to just give a certain meaning to his life, not necessarily a meaningful but a better one that having none.

 

[Spirit]

Yeah I have read Bleach, true.
As for that phrase. Well to me it proves exactly what I stated: he doesn't make a choice for himself and just shows his disgust for the choices that are given to him. You may want something more heroic but this is actually a very humane quality. Many people despise their lives but not to the point of actually trying to change them. For they have that little something that is sufficient enough to the point of not actually fighting for more even though they well deserve that more. Same with Arima, he's disgusted but that won't stop him from doing what he has always done; following a routine. He's just selfish. Even cooperating with Eto was out of pure hydonism. It may have seemed heroic but in the end, what exactly changed in his actions? Absolutely nothing, he just enriched his actions with a meaning. That doesn't mean that these actions for him truly gained some meaning but rather they started to entertain him a bit more as a reason was given to him to act. Again, he didn't take any initiatives. Yes, he did have left Eto and some others get away now and then but he didn't act; rather his contribution was specifically his inaction. Till now he was killing everyone indiscriminately wheareas afterwards he proceeded to do the same old only with few exeptions made. I truly don't believe that Arima was trying to help anyone at all. Yes he might have loved Kaneki but that's it. His life was meaningless, he has given up on making his own choices and got used so much to be degraded to a killing machine, that he couldn't see himself acting any differently. In the end, he cooperated with Eto to just give a certain meaning to his life, not necessarily a meaningful but a better one that having none.

Perhaps it was his only chance at redemption in his eyes? He didn't care about what happened after he was gone, but I think he just wanted at least one person to love and/or forgive him for his sins.

 

[Byron]

Perhaps it was his only chance at redemption in his eyes? He didn't care about what happened after he was gone, but I think he just wanted at least one person to love and/or forgive him for his sins.

Yeah sure, I'm not ruling out that. I'm just saying, people give me more credit than he deserves. They try to make him look more empathetic than he truly was. To me, Ishida has a cruel sense of irony (well yeah he's him, no wonder) because despite making Arima a King, he was always acting like a pawn. To me he was a a pawn ordering a true king.

 

[Vandred]

Vandred and Lambu I love you both so much right now.

As long as you didn't go full Matsuri in public...

Yeah I have read Bleach, true.
As for that phrase. Well to me it proves exactly what I stated: he doesn't make a choice for himself and just shows his disgust for the choices that are given to him. You may want something more heroic but this is actually a very humane quality. Many people despise their lives but not to the point of actually trying to change them. For they have that little something that is sufficient enough to the point of not actually fighting for more even though they well deserve that more. Same with Arima, he's disgusted but that won't stop him from doing what he has always done; following a routine. He's just selfish. Even cooperating with Eto was out of pure hydonism. It may have seemed heroic but in the end, what exactly changed in his actions? Absolutely nothing, he just enriched his actions with a meaning. That doesn't mean that these actions for him truly gained some meaning but rather they started to entertain him a bit more as a reason was given to him to act. Again, he didn't take any initiatives. Yes, he did have left Eto and some others get away now and then but he didn't act; rather his contribution was specifically his inaction. Till now he was killing everyone indiscriminately wheareas afterwards he proceeded to do the same old only with few exeptions made. I truly don't believe that Arima was trying to help anyone at all. Yes he might have loved Kaneki but that's it. His life was meaningless, he has given up on making his own choices and got used so much to be degraded to a killing machine, that he couldn't see himself acting any differently. In the end, he cooperated with Eto to just give a certain meaning to his life, not necessarily a meaningful but a better one that having none.

That could be a valid interpretation of Arima's character, but in my opinion, it starts to show some cracks once you take into account that he was implied to have been the actual One-Eyed King that was spoken of in the first part of TG, the hidden leader of Aogiri. Tatara bowed before him and called him "King". Eto mentions him as having been essential in the fabrication of his legend while the two are shown side by side. We know for sure that he took an active approach to the plan at least since the fight in V14, so can we really assume he didn't take any initiative? Even if he didn't in the first ten years after he spared Eto - which we can't know with certainty - he sure acted in the following three until his death. Regardless, indolence or no, there are other facts that I don't think align well enough with each other.

But I'm glad to see that Arima is still one of the hottest topics of discussion around here.

 

[Iownamovingcastle]

Arima kind of fell apart as a character for me for a lot of the reasons you guys are bringing up. I like(d) him as a character and, I reread certain parts with him recently, and it is better than I remembered. Like, the final fight, when you read it in sequence, is actually pretty damn awesome.
But, his actual character and motivations? I feel like they got away from Ishida a bit. Which happens in long-running manga. Like, there are very few long-running manga that are so tightly written that I can't pick apart certain threads or motivations like with Arima.
I do hope we learn more, but if we don't I will just file it away with some of my Bleach and Naruto complaints (Ultimately, TG has way less of these moments than they do, though, of course, it is much shorter than them as well).

 

[SonOfDaws]

Conceptually, I love Arima and Eto, Eto more so, and I'm still alright with most of what they've done.... However, I'm not a huge fan of how those concepts were handled/executed, if that makes sense.

My main issue right now is with Eto's defeat. I was alright with her going down like that before because it served to further build up Furuta, another extremely important character in the series. Thing is, it's been +20 chapters later and Furuta's been shaping up to be a pretty uninteresting, unoriginal villain.. He has the occasional cool or funny moment, but he's nothing special. A major character like Eto being beaten off-screen to build up another character only works if the character being built up is better than the one they "replaced," but as of right now, Furuta's not a better character imo. My opinion could change in the future though..

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2017 ---

Arima kind of fell apart as a character for me for a lot of the reasons you guys are bringing up. I like(d) him as a character and, I reread certain parts with him recently, and it is better than I remembered. Like, the final fight, when you read it in sequence, is actually pretty damn awesome.
But, his actual character and motivations? I feel like they got away from Ishida a bit. Which happens in long-running manga. Like, there are very few long-running manga that are so tightly written that I can't pick apart certain threads or motivations like with Arima.
I do hope we learn more, but if we don't I will just file it away with some of my Bleach and Naruto complaints (Ultimately, TG has way less of these moments than they do, though, of course, it is much shorter than them as well).

So, you're alive after all We thought you got kidnapped at that convention or something..

But yeah Arima.. I feel like Ishida didn't really know for sure what his motivations were until the middle of :re or something. Either way, I don't like how unexplained the character was. I'm fine with it being open-ended, but we barely knew anything about Arima until he killed himself which happens far too often in TG.

 

[Byron]

As long as you didn't go full Matsuri in public...

That could be a valid interpretation of Arima's character, but in my opinion, it starts to show some cracks once you take into account that he was implied to have been the actual One-Eyed King that was spoken of in the first part of TG, the hidden leader of Aogiri. Tatara bowed before him and called him "King". Eto mentions him as having been essential in the fabrication of his legend while the two are shown side by side. We know for sure that he took an active approach to the plan at least since the fight in V14, so can we really assume he didn't take any initiative? Even if he didn't in the first ten years after he spared Eto - which we can't know with certainty - he sure acted in the following three until his death. Regardless, indolence or no, there are other facts that I don't think align well enough with each other.

But I'm glad to see that Arima is still one of the hottest topics of discussion around here.

I'm noy saying that he wasn't an actual One-Eyed King but not the one from the myths. What I mean is that yes he became a symbol because of his actions but you must take into account humans's egocentric nature. By that, I 'm not talking about selfishness but rather the way humans perceive the world. When humans don't have knowledge about something or someone, they try to substitute this lack of knowledge based on impressions created by the way a certain being or phenomenon affects them in a personal way. Therefore, they perceive as good whatever benefits them and as bad as whatever harms them. He was perceived as good because ghouls' world was indirectly benefited from him.

Let me talk on a real basis. Let's take Hitler as example. Hitler once he rose in power, he was glorified by Germans because Germany at first was benefited from him. As a country, WW1 had deeply harmed their economy and as a nation they were disrespected. At that point, the original one, they didn't know anything of him, of his train of thought. The only thing they knew was that he was benefiting them. In that sense, you may help someone and thus appear as good while your aim is just complete control over power. Thus doing good things for others for egocentric reasons that have nothing to do with them. That doesn't make you good, that's what you're perceived as from those who don't know how you operate.


Returning now to Arima: "Taking an active role", what exactly changed in his modus vivendi and operandi? He still continued killing ghouls just with few exceptions. Certainly, you could say that these few exceptions had a postive impact on Ghouls' world and that's why they considered him a "friend" but that is only an impression based on the lack of knowledge we have for him. I think that Ishida once called him a sadist? Don't take my word for it. But truthfully, given his god status, what he did based on what he could is just scraps. Yeah, Squad Zero was holding him back but I'm sure that he was not as helpless as he made it sound like. I truly believe that he lost interest in living and making his own choices. That developed a sadistic side presented in a clearer fashion in the way he was "educating" Kaneki. One could call it just "cruel love", I prefer to see it as over the top in order to satisfy his inner needs. To be a sadist, it doesn't mean that you can't be helpful by just masking your urges with such "cruel love".

So in the end, I see his alliance to Eto as a way to fuck CCG up for the way they treated him and also a cruel game. To feel the adrenaline out of fear for your life ( a rare thing for him) and in general a sadistic concept of help as 'the more I help you, the more I can keep you alive and thus the more I will hurt you in the end".

As for the lack of facts, I think that was exactly the point of his character, to force the readers to draw conclusions based on his actions solely. It takes a base mind to differentiate positive to negative but to actually pin-point the different nuances, that's what it takes to build one's personality (writer here :P ). Think of it as perception test; how far will the reader go to question one's actions and information given for these actions? Will they just assume that they were justified because it was said so by other characters of the story who share this exact lack of knowledge and much like readers rely on impressions to draw out their conclusions? The theme of Tokyo Ghoul is illusion, Arima is no different.

 

[Erium]

My main issue right now is with Eto's defeat. I was alright with her going down like that before because it served to further build up Furuta, another extremely important character in the series. Thing is, it's been +20 chapters later and Furuta's been shaping up to be a pretty uninteresting, unoriginal villain.. He has the occasional cool or funny moment, but he's nothing special. A major character like Eto being beaten off-screen to build up another character only works if the character being built up is better than the one they "replaced," but as of right now, Furuta's not a better character imo. My opinion could change in the future though..

I must reluctantly agree that right now Furuta is more of a despotic troll than a true villian, he lacks the depth and the intricate nuances that make Eto a rich and ambivalent character, I hope Ishida gives him more "pagetime" to elucidate his character, especially his past. Furuta has the potential to become a great antagonist.

Though I'll be honest when I read "uninteresting, unoriginal villian" I became furious!

I think that Ishida once called him a sadist? Don't take my word for it.

He kinda did:

 

[Spirit]

Well I'm more than willing to wait and see what Ishida has in store for us with Furuta, because you're right. He's just trolling everyone right now because it's in his nature. However, I do think he has an end goal, and that all of this nonsense is working up towards that climax. I mean, for real, we've never seen Furuta actually get serious. Not even against Eto. These days I feel like some people like jumping to conclusions about things that we know next to nothing about. (Not pointing any fingers).

 

[Erium]

Well I'm more than willing to wait and see what Ishida has in store for us with Furuta, because you're right. He's just trolling everyone right now because it's in his nature. However, I do think he has an end goal, and that all of this nonsense is working up towards that climax. I mean, for real, we've never seen Furuta actually get serious. Not even against Eto. These days I feel like some people like jumping to conclusions about things that we know next to nothing about. (Not pointing any fingers).

We haven't seen him get serious in a fight but there have been instances where he was serious, for example: When he grabbed Kaneki by the neck and told him to 'take the blame and disappear' and his outburst when Eto roasted him.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Well I'm more than willing to wait and see what Ishida has in store for us with Furuta, because you're right. He's just trolling everyone right now because it's in his nature. However, I do think he has an end goal, and that all of this nonsense is working up towards that climax. I mean, for real, we've never seen Furuta actually get serious. Not even against Eto. These days I feel like some people like jumping to conclusions about things that we know next to nothing about. (Not pointing any fingers).

We don't know if he got serious against Eto or not because it was off screen. Anyway this will be my last post in regards to that crap situation. Since Donato trick last chapter I decided to pretend that's what Eto did. Been using a clone while she's chilling in the 24th ward. That's my coping mechanism now with regards to Ishida portrayal of her. Was reading the original recently and I just laugh every time someone brings up how dangerous Eto and Aogiri are.

 

[SonOfDaws]

These days I feel like some people like jumping to conclusions about things that we know next to nothing about. (Literally, pointing all my fingers at @SonOfDaws. What a bitch, amiright?..).

I was just saying how I felt about Furuta as of right now. He definitely has the potential to be a great character..

We don't know if he got serious against Eto or not because it was off screen. Anyway this will be my last post in regards to that crap situation. Since Donato trick last chapter I decided to pretend that's what Eto did. Been using a clone while she's chilling in the 24th ward. That's my coping mechanism now with regards to Ishida portrayal of her. Was reading the original recently and I just laugh every time someone brings up how dangerous Eto and Aogiri are.

Probably opened up a coffee shop bookstore called "Idontevenliketeaku"...

or "Barnes & Noble"

(A bad joke but I honestly would not be surprised if that happened)

 

[Iownamovingcastle]

I loved Furuta basically since his introduction and lately have felt less in love with him? Like, I don't entirely like how his story arc is going, Eto being beaten and possibly killed off screen is lame, I found him to be an interesting villain, but right now I find others to be better than him? Eto was 100X more interesting as the big bad to me, Donato is awesome, Uta is still mysterious and dangerous. Then there is Furuta, who can apparently basically one shot Eto, but we haven't really seen him fight, and his stated motive is he wants to impregnate Rize. I don't know.
I liked him better almost when we knew less about him.

Of course, this might change! I think he does lie sometimes (I doubt his only motive is to impregnate Rize). I am sure his character will be developed as time passes. But, right now, he has quickly gone from one of my fav characters to...meh.