Politics United States Presidential Election Thread

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Leos~

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Toad Sage, (this is slightly off topic, but...) have you read the book "All the King's Men" by Robert Penn Warren? If you haven't read it yet, I think you'd might enjoy it. Back on topic, I agree with most of what you say, but at the same time I would like to be a bit more optimistic and say that we, as voting citizens, can and will make a difference by voting, and that some of the people running for president just might have the good of the American people first and foremost in their thoughts. Personally, because of some of the problems you listed above, I am leaning towards Barock Obama because of his lack of experience. I really think it's time for some fresh faces, "out with the old and in with the new" if you will. Of course that's not the only reason I'm voting for him, but with all the people saying how his lack of experience is hurting him, I figured I'd point out why I believe that's not necessarily a detriment to his presidential abilities. Also on the point of the candidates, and I hesitate to say this because the state primaries have not been completed yet, I think that the candidates for presidency are far better this time than they have been for at least the past two presidential elections (2000 and 2004).
 

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Well, I love playing devil's advocate, so I must say that if voting worked, they'd make it illegal... My first opportunity to participate in a national election was an utter fraud: voters being purged, "hanging chads," and goon squads scaring citizens away from recounting votes, all culminating with the Supreme Court deciding the outcome in a 5/4 decision split along party lines. That experience has taught me to not trust national politics and our precaution against future abuses by instituting voting machines has only deepened my mistrust. Notice, too, this was a Federal decision despite the fact that collecting and tallying votes is the sovereign right of each state. The Federal government, i.e. the Bush administration (supposedly anti-big government conservatives), withheld federal education funding from the states if they exceeded the set deadline for their adoption. As a New Yorker, I experienced this first hand, since my state went past the deadline the Federal Government had set...

But just to play along and pretend that my vote would have an impact, I'd probably vote for Hillary Clinton because it would signify a return to the white house for Bill Clinton. Just as Hillary herself played an influential role in her husband's administration, I also expect Bill to get involved in some of its functions. In a recent worldwide survey, Bill Clinton came in second place after Nelson Mendela in an imaginary "who would you elect to run the world" poll. I think this is an indication that the Clinton name could help restore the relationship with Europe Bush has annihilated. If Hillary removed our armies from the middle east, I also think she would effective at re-establishing our place as a leader in human rights (we'd also have to quit torturing and definitively end the ridiculous debate over whether a civilized nation should torture detainees.) In sum, I think restoring the effectiveness of our diplomacy is going to be overwhelming important for us, as I believe politics is going to become increasingly international in the decades to come. Clinton clearly has the international savvy to pull this off. Also, frankly, I think the simple fact she is a women would be an indication to the outside world we're coming out of our ultra-conservative haze and therefore ready to take international discussion seriously once more.

Last, and definitely not least, if Hillary believes in one thing, it is national healthcare, and I am convinced this is exactly what our country needs to balance our desire to compete internationally and restore industry to our country. One of the greatest obstacles we face when trying to compel international corporations to create plants on our shores is the problem of health insurance costs. Besides how much it costs for regular citizens, it's even more expensive for large corporations to meet the demands of unions for worker healthcare. As such, we lose business to overseas competitors (just consider what's happening to Ford right now in America wrt Toyota). I think if we had an affordable form of national healthcare we could attract business to our shores and begin helping to restore the middle class. Right now, the middle class in our country is dead.

In the 2005 census, overall earnings had increased by 3% from the previous year, whereas marginal propensity to consume for households with income lower than 100K had decreased by a staggering 7%. What this means is that the rich are getting way richer, and the poor are getting way poorer. Because we have no industry in our country, the children of the middle class are shipped off to college to go deeply into debt and enter the job market seeking entry level retail positions (largely the sector all the job growth in the last seven years has been in, i.e. more walmart jobs) that cannot possibly hope to pay off the debt they've accrued. The way we've driven industry into third world countries since the Regan era has crippled our country and I predict we're going to see just how badly when this wave of college students hits their thirties with an average 100K in debt and they're trying to pay that off by working part time at Payless Shoes. To finish this rant, again, I feel the way to work toward a solution for the problem is to offer national healthcare and attract industry back to our shores. WIth reduced healthcare costs, they can afford to pay wages that are acceptable-even desirable-in America and remain competitive (or at least moreso than presently) in the international arena.

Also, healthcare is just a thing we all deserve, and I'll argue this point to death with anyone. We are supposed to be free citizens here in America, and a crucial aspect of freedom is our right to healthcare. Not to mention from a practical point of view that presently we spend 18% of GDP per capita on healthcare whereas Germany pays 7% of its GDP per capita-and this is with national healthcare! What the hell kind of scenario is that? To me that just sounds like a capitalist gangbang, and we, the regular citizens, are its victims. I can't imagine how any worker in this country could support the right of the powerful and rich to suppress them. Well, when we hang the last capitalist he'll sell us the rope! That's just a joke. He'd probably sell us the entire gallows.

Anway, vote Hillary and don't get distracted by her war record. Everyone at the time-dem and rep-had a gun to their head, politically speaking, to go along with Bush. Those days are over and we're trying to fix things. Despite Obama's obvious charisma, I don't think there is much else to him as a politician since he's a junior senator. The job we have ahead of us for fixing America is just too big for him. We need some real politically connected individual with the know how to fix the mess Bush is leaving us with. And that person, I believe, is Hillary Clinton (well, again, given my choices).
 
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Leos~

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I have no problem with Hillary, and she would be my second place vote, but there's just something about her that make some people hate her, for no real reason. Now, I know this sounds insane, but I'm sure you've met some of these people too: alot of people seem to be totally against hillary for no reason at all. I've met more people than I can count who say they will vote for "anyone but hillary" and when I ask why, they can't give any logical reason. I don't understand it, but there's just something about her that some people inherintly hate (it could be her being a woman, it could be her husband being bill clinton-who I thought did a great job- or it could be she's an alien. I'll probably never know). Personally, if either of them wins the democratic primaries I'll vote for whoever it is. If not, I'll have to see who the candidates are.

As for voting being an utter fraud, I live in Florida. That basically covers it all. But like I said, I'm an optimist, and I'd like to think that my little vote counts :p At least I know that my vote won't count if I don't vote.
 

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The reason Hillary has these negative feelings attached to her isn't necessarily because she's a Clinton, it's because she has many special interest groups backing her. This isn't anything new to a politician, but she most likely attracts them because of her insane popularity and who she's married to.

I myself don't really trust politicians, and I am attracted more to third party candidates as I think the way our Democracy masquerades as being anything other than a two party government is laughable.

Fact: The last Senator elected to the Presidency was JFK, so current senators running now have that working against them.

The current congress really pissed me off that I voted for them in 2006 for how inept they appear to be. I will most likely vote Democrat this election as I am a registered Democrat. I live in Maryland so it's pretty much pointless to even vote Republican as the last Republican to win Maryland was the first George Bush in 1988, and this state has gotten in more blue since then. I liked Giuliani prior to this campaign, but he has just come off badly, as well as John McCain.

And yes, it certainly seems like all the candidates try to paint themselves as moderates when there are very few in actuality.
 
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Leos~

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I think theres more to it than just the fact that she has special interest groups backing her. That is actually a listed reason someone can use to justify not liking her. What I'm saying is alot of people simply hate her for no reason at all. I actually don't think it's any one thing that causes it (it has as much to do with some people being idiots as her being a woman or a clinton or maybe her personality, etc etc. I guess it doesn't really matter why, but that just seems to be the way it is: alot of people hate her for no apparant reason).
 

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Toad Sage, I definitely agree with you regarding your ideas on health care. The United States is seriously in the dark ages as far as our policies on this are concerned. (And I still can't believe Bush vetoed the bill that would've expanded SCHIP).

However, taking the cynical viewpoint, even if Hillary (who has a lot of good ideas on the subject) was elected president, and even if the president had a lot more power, there is no way in the foreseeable future that the United States will ever have universal health care.

I was talking about this with a friend of mine from France the other day. In France, they have a form of universal health care where the government (social security program) pays 75% of almost all medical bills, and the (very cheap, optional) private insurance pays the rest. This is only for people over a certain income level though. For everyone under this, the social security program pays 100% of costs. For this to work, all the companies in France pay a certain amount towards the social security, and employees also have a portion of their paycheck going towards social security. However, even with these high taxes, the program is already severely in debt -- somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.2 trillion euros. France is obviously a much more liberal country than the US in general. There probably aren't too many fiscal conservatives in the US who would let that happen.

Another point essential to the universal health care system working in France -- the government controls the price of all pharmaceutical drugs, and obviously they set the prices much, much cheaper than the pharma companies are able to sell the same drugs for in the US. This extreme price-fixing will never happen in the US. The pharmaceutical industry just has way too many powerful lobbyists in Washington.

The thing is, it's extremely expensive to make a successful drug. It takes somewhere on the order of 12 years to get a drug through all the stages of development, and along the way the pharma companies have to abandon many more drugs that they've already invested a lot of money in. Without the possibility of the very large rewards that come from marketing a sucessful drug in the US market, many companies wouldn't accept the risk of making the drugs in the first place. The pharma lobbyists obviously understand this point, and they're very convincing. Not to mention that they have a lot of money to spare for "campaign contributions" and such.

so, as much as we need it, I don't see a universal health care bill ever passing through congress.

As for Hillary herself, she does have a lot of good ideas, but the problem is, she's very divisive. If she's elected president, I can't see any of her good ideas coming to light, because I can't see her getting republicans and democrats to work together on anything. I think Barak has a better chance at this. And, to be perfectly honest, I don't think this country is ready to elect a female president. If she does win out in the primaries, I see this election going to the republicans.
 

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As for voting being an utter fraud, I live in Florida. That basically covers it all. But like I said, I'm an optimist, and I'd like to think that my little vote counts :p At least I know that my vote won't count if I don't vote.
Yes the wonders of the electronic age. Partisan is getting out of control. I don't trust my state in the least. I live in Washington, a radically Democratic state. In our last govenor race we had a Republican canidate winning. That is, until we got a flood of "absentee" ballets. In fact we had a a citizen who registered her cat and had it vote.

Though the cat is an exagerration (though it should be pointed out that the lady turned herself in to get attention to the subject matter and could have gotten away with it if she wanted too.) The big problem is that in Washington we seem to love to send in absentee ballets of the dead people. Here's an article that helps you get a picture on how citizens got away with it http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/206969_dead07.html

So in the future I hope we stray away from being heavily partisan. Look at the Republican party, it was founded on the belief that the Federal Government should shrink. Does it ever actually shrink under them? Of course not, each party wants to control America. Its not even about improving America anymore. Its now all about having Majority so you can push your agendas. I wish I had the video but I've seen (on Youtube albeit) was multiple senators submitting their vote from an absent Senator by pushing a button that didn't belong to them. Please we need some damn honesty in office, unfortunately I'm not going to be able to leave my mark this election.... damn 1990 birthdate... stupid decade.
 

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I agree with you on what you say Manu, especially about avoiding being too partisan. I know way too many people who will outright refuse to vote for someone if they are in the[insert rival party here] party. I would vote for a Republican just as soon as a Democrat as long as they are what I am looking for in a candidate. With the voting, I'm pretty sure that eventually all voting will be switched to electronic in the near future, and untill that gets settled in there will probably be some glitches. That's not to say there ever won't be problems, I just think that there will be less once we get the electronic voting down.
 

manu

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Electronic Voting though is so easly hacked. In Florida the big conspiracy was that in all the small "minor" counties the Bush/Kerry votes would get reversed. The projection of votes had been proven wrong in multiple small counties but maintaned the same in bigger counties where the difference would have been seen. And when asked if its theoretically possible to hack the voting polls the consensus has always been yes. Ok thats not true, the winners will stand by that the computers weren't hacked but here's a compelling article (just one of many on the internet) http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm

Yeah but they'll insert some bogus rule in the electronic voting to keep out the votes of who they don't want. Its an old tried and true technique of racism.

In the past when blacks were given "supposed" rights to vote after the Civil War they did enjoy the rights for a while. Until they started charging people to vote and declaring that only people who own X amount of property could vote. Now they didn't particularly exclude African Americans but they know that the majority of blacks just simply can't afford property at that time and it kept them out of voting in the south.

Now onto modern times. Blacks still have difficulty to vote and its thanks to the "fancy" voting machines. The technology unfortunately is never equally distributed to all communities. Here's a quote from the NY times
In the case of Ms. McCray, David Leahy, the supervisor of elections in Miami-Dade County, said she had been properly registered and should have been allowed to cast her ballot. Mr. Leahy could not say why Ms. McCray's name had been omitted from the precinct voting lists. He acknowledged in an interview this week that the phone lines on which precinct workers were supposed to check a voter's status were frequently busy. Mr. Leahy said the county tried to ease the strain on its phone lines by providing election officials in 18 of the county's larger precincts with laptop computers that were linked to the official register of voters.

A New York Times analysis of those precincts shows that 14 were predominantly Hispanic while 1 was heavily African-American and 3 were mostly white. Vice President Al Gore carried Miami-Dade County by 53 percent to 46 percent. The analysis shows the 18 precincts with the laptops voted 56 percent to 42 percent for Gov. George W. Bush.
Actual source if you need reassuring http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/30/politics/30BLAC.html?ex=1192852800&en=b9e813682e79d38c&ei=5070

Now the reason I bring up this fact is that Florida was essential to the last election and secondly because Jeb Bush, George Bush's brother was the governor for that state. When we continue having two parties controlling the United States you'll see that cases like this are evident all over history. Everyone wants their team to win and is willing to cheat. Eliminate the parties and you make it that each individual is running by themself and has to win due to their policies and not by which party is most popular.

So yeah, its impossible outside of a revolution to chance the system and when I get to vote for President in 4 years I'll try my best to find a comprimise but this is really a broken system that needs some help.
 

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That's a very thought provoking post, Kaylee. I've said a lot already so I won't belabor you guys with another two page post giant, but I just wanted to chime in to express my admiration.
 

kaylee

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Thanks, Toad Sage! But I actually liked reading your two-page posts. So if you ever have the time or inclination to do another one, please do! There aren't many people posting here anyway.
 

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For anyone interested, USAToday has a pretty useful quiz that asks your opinion on a bunch of topics and then shows you which candidates you best match up with. And then in the end, it shows you an overall view of each of the candidate's positions on all of the questions.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/candidate-match-game.htm
Quite the interesting quiz. When I got done with it, I was identified as leaning towards Hillary Clinton (D), Duncan Hunter (R), and Barack Obama (D).

@Toad Sage: Interesting info you posted there. It's only a matter of time before presidential elections arrive, so whoever has to finish up what Bush leaves behind will be quite a challenge.
 
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Toad Sage

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I got Gravel, Dodd, and 3rd Kucinich. I don't even know who the first two candidate are! I'd vote for Kucinich, as he's fairly pro-labor, which is my personal issue. I'm very pro-working class on the whole, which is why I probably skew fairly conservative when it comes to immigration issues.

I don't blame immigrants for seeking a better life here, but to me its absurd they even have to being our neighbors. I think the best way to solve the immigration trouble is to look for solutions south of border and try, however in vain it may be, to improve the standard of living outside of the US so that sneaking into America isn't such an attractive option; no fence, barrier, or border is going to stem the tide of immigrants so long as the risks of sneaking into America are outweighted by the desperation at home. How often do we deal with Canadians sneaking into the US? And compare their standard of living to what is putatively the average standard of living in Central America. I'm hardly an expert on this issue, but to me this seems like the most equitable and logical solution to the problem. It would also spare us the indiginity of being told there is work we Americans don't want when what is really meant is that we don't want to work for so little.

But right now, with foreign issues being what they are, I don't see focusing on domestic issues as important in the next few years. I don't know how many of you saw Putin warning western powers to stay out of Iran this week only for Bush to mention (remember, he's a president of the USA) world war three the next day in the white house press room. Scary stuff!
 

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((I haven't had a chance to read the other post atm other then what was on pg3 i will go back if i have any free time and read them l8er))

I don't want Hillary to win i also am Pro-life so that takes out some of the republican's too ..

This election will be the first i get to vote in so i am looking forward to it i am also scared because i know the next person in charge will have a lot of power to effect a lot of things.

Health Care is a big issue for me too seeing as i have a large family and if our health care was to have been the way it is in some other country's i seriously doubt that some of my siblings would have made it / we would have been able to afford it .
 

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I don't really have to anything to say about whether the voting process is corrupted or flawed or not, except that if it is as bad as you guys think, all the more reason for the people to really let them hear about what they think. The less we do, the worse it just gets.

Just wanted to bring attention to a big Republican debate currently airing right now on several channels. I have it on in the background.
 

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Thanks for bringing attention to the debate... watching now. I don't understand Mitt Romney's position against gay marriage. Is he arguing against it simply because he doesn't want same-sex couples adopting kids? Is there any empirical evidence that same-sex couples are worse at raising kids than a male-female couple?
 

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I don't know... maybe it's that he thinks it's better to have a father and a mother because the kid gets perspectives from both sexes which may help him/her get a better view on life overall. But I guess there's always extended family for that, and having gay parents would be better than having no guardians at all, and most orphans wouldn't care as long as they have good parents and a family to call their own.

But I don't know that much about Romney so I don't know. I also don't really see why gay marriage should have anything to do with adoption of kids anyway.
 

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Funny how this debate is just turning into a Hillary-bashing fest. Every candidate is scoring jokes off her. :amuse

I don't know whether to take this as the rebublicans thinking she's a threat or a joke.
 

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Oh, both. She's definitely a threat. (And the Republicans do think the Dems are a joke, more or less, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual.)

EDIT: When I said "definitely a threat," I meant from the Republician perspective, I didn't want to offend any Hillary supporters :p
 
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kaylee

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I don't know... maybe it's that he thinks it's better to have a father and a mother because the kid gets perspectives from both sexes which may help him/her get a better view on life overall. But I guess there's always extended family for that, and having gay parents would be better than having no guardians at all, and most orphans wouldn't care as long as they have good parents and a family to call their own.

But I don't know that much about Romney so I don't know. I also don't really see why gay marriage should have anything to do with adoption of kids anyway.
Definitely agree here. If Romney is arguing that kids are raised better with both sexes, he should go ahead and take away all the kids from single mothers too. And there are plenty of traditional, married couples with kids who really aren't fit to be parents either. So I don't see how kids come into a gay marriage debate.

I just don't see why we should hold same-sex couples to a different standard to opposite-sex couples. I actually haven't heard a good argument yet against gay marriage.
 
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