Discussion V was murdered theory

[Demonspeed]

I wouldn't mind it if V takes over and replaces Bam as MC, not at all. I know that a lot of readers don't want to accept such an outcome though, they'll hammer on teh same boring line "We had over 600 chapters of Bam as an MC just for him to change?". But if it was always V's story and Bam was just a vessel until V came back, then what's the problem? I really have no problem with it at all.

I also don't think we can conclude whether V was the "main character" among the 13 irregulars or not. It doesn't matter if we think of him(From their perspective) as the "main character" or the "main antagonist" V ultimately remained, from teh beginning to the end a being that influenced their lives in one way or another, good or bad. We don't know at which point they stopped looking towards V, what we do know is there used to be a time when they did look towards him. He was always at the forefront at their climb, with Jahad next to him too. Now you can make an argument for either V being the MC of their climb or V being the villain of their climb, what you cannot do is deny that V played a leading role in their climb. He was then more of a "main character" than the surrounding family heads who could all have been just supporting roles.

It's not about wanting it or not. It's simply not going to happen. V was the one FUG was looking for, but Baam is the MC. I never denied his importance, but in the end Zahard was their leader. The other FHs aren't exactly good role models. All of them became terrible beings.

 

[Lord V returned]

History belongs to the victors.

That doesn't make it true though.

The entire Empire and History of Jahad is nothing but a big lie, it's an alternate history, one that's not true. We already know this for a fact. You're wasting your time trying to deny it and you're wasting your time trying to defend someone that had to rewrite history and wipe their own memories to hide from teh truth. There's your real losers.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 29, 2025, Original Post Date: Jan 29, 2025 ---

It's not about wanting it or not. It's simply not going to happen. V was the one FUG was looking for, but Baam is the MC. I never denied his importance, but in the end Zahard was their leader. The other FHs aren't exactly good role models. All of them became terrible beings.

Well who knows...There was also no way it'll ever happen that Siu makes c-rank regulars be on par with high rankers making them effectively more of a "genius" than Adori herself. But it happened. But whether it happens or not is completely irrelevant and doesn't change anything that I said, not in the slightest.

 

[Lonatian]

That doesn't make it true though.

The entire Empire and History of Jahad is nothing but a big lie, it's an alternate history, one that's not true. We already know this for a fact. You're wasting your time trying to deny it and you're wasting your time trying to defend someone that had to rewrite history and wipe their own memories to hide from teh truth. There's your real losers.

History was erased, not changed. Gustang threw it in the red dump, not edited it. You always say history is a lie.
So what did it say wrong?

Basically an irregular group entered the tower and then became the rulers of the tower. I don't see anything wrong with that, it's not like they acted like saints and then stabbed each other in the back like V. Everyone knows they're dictators.

 

[Lord V returned]

History was erased, not changed.

There mere act of just erasing anything from history already changes it, it's the entire point of erasing it in the first place.

 

[Lonatian]

There mere act of just erasing anything from history already changes it, it's the entire point of erasing it in the first place.

You are the one who said history is a big lie. But that is not true, not telling part of the story and lying are two different things.

Also, only Gustang cares about history. You blame Zahard and other FHs for changing history, which is not true, they do not care about history. They consider themselves superior beings and others are bugs.
Why do they care what bugs think?

 

[Lord V returned]

You are the one who said history is a big lie. But that is not true, not telling part of the story and lying are two different things.

Yes, their entire history is a lie, as said by the keeper of History, multiple times. You're trying to twist things around to make it look like erasing parts of history isn't the same as changing history altogether and that's not true in the slightest.

Also, only Gustang cares about history. You blame Zahard and other FHs for changing history, which is not true, they do not care about history. They consider themselves superior beings and others are bugs.
Why do they care what bugs think?

If they didn't care what the bugs thought, then why bother erasing V and Arlene in the first place? The mere act of erasing them from history set up an entirely different narrative and history in that tower. If V and Arlene were not an issue at all, they could have left them in the history books and tower to be ridiculed by history. Instead they remove any and all traces of their existence as if they never existed and they did that for a reason, yes even if it was to deceive the 'bugs'.

It doesn't matter how much you try to argue against it, erasing history is the same as rewriting it. And if you took a minutes out of your busy day of admiring yourself on how wrong you are and actually thought about it, you'd realize it's true.

 

[Lonatian]

Yes, their entire history is a lie, as said by the keeper of History, multiple times. You're trying to twist things around to make it look like erasing parts of history isn't the same as changing history altogether and that's not true in the slightest.



If they didn't care what the bugs thought, then why bother erasing V and Arlene in the first place? The mere act of erasing them from history set up an entirely different narrative and history in that tower. If V and Arlene were not an issue at all, they could have left them in the history books and tower to be ridiculed by history. Instead they remove any and all traces of their existence as if they never existed and they did that for a reason, yes even if it was to deceive the 'bugs'.

It doesn't matter how much you try to argue against it, erasing history is the same as rewriting it. And if you took a minutes out of your busy day of admiring yourself on how wrong you are and actually thought about it, you'd realize it's true.

No one thinks that Zahard took V's fate. V chose his own path and he is responsible for it. Zahard and V's paths are not the same, and they don't have a common goal. They were different from the beginning, but Zahard is still the leader. And you think Zahard is jealous of V because of his life, so he took V's fate. Zahard has nothing besides being king, he loves one person all his life, has no wife, no children, the princess is from another family to fight for power, he has to bear all the internal and external enemies by himself.
It is common in every culture for a loser to be erased from history. Zahard did not create a fabricated story about V.

If you have a conscience, you won't blame Zahard for V's failed life. Zahard and the 10 family heads are victims of V's rebellion and V's choice in the rice pot.

He did not tell the world that V was the worst, a traitor to humanity. The world only knows that Zahard killed an entire race, and cursed the remaining opponents, history didn't erase this. Erasing V and Arlene just add two more losers.

Gustang rewrote history, but that was his own wish. If you think about it, you will see that Gustang did not make up anything. Gustang did not have a very close relationship with Zahard. He also did not record anything good for Zahard other than the truth.

 

[arrowofsky]

Lonatian, You have too much pure conjectures. You can have them if you want but they are not canon, we don't know yet, not to mention the fact that you will not enjoy ToG becuase you already think you know many yet to be uncovered things.

-Zahard and V's paths are not the same, and they don't have a common goal. They were different from the beginning, but Zahard is still the leader.

We know of Zahard superficially, there are some obvious things but why he stopped climbing, why he was obsessed with being the king is more or less unknown, we only know second-hand sources. For V, we just don't know what was his first purpose, why he "rebelled", even the reason he "committed suicide" can be changed. Hence, we can't make comparisons among two things, which one of them is barely known the other is pure mystery.

-Zahard has nothing besides being king, he loves one person all his life, has no wife, no children, the princess is from another family to fight for power, he has to bear all the internal and external enemies by himself.

I am not sure about Zahard bearing all internal external enemies by himself, could you check the Lo po bia family, how he was introduced for which reason, for instance?

-Zahard and the 10 family heads are victims of V's rebellion and V's choice in the rice pot.

Could you please introduce us "Tower of Lonatian" more properly?

-He did not tell the world that V was the worst, a traitor to humanity. The world only knows that Zahard killed an entire race, and cursed the remaining opponents, history didn't erase this. Erasing V and Arlene just add two more losers.

Let's say you are making a scientific experiment. You got 20 results, 8 of them were messed up. You removed them and report results from the 12 you chose. What you did was fabricating the results. Removing losers from the history is not the common sense, history being written by the winner is the common one. At some point, winner may decide removing, which also means fabricating a history, because the real history should have the deleted record. And it is not a less bad thing than badmouthing, as badmouthing generally creates more followers for the badmouthed one, while if you manage to erase, you won't have further enemies.

You may not like V, and I don't like Zahard. But I am fine with him being in the story. It is just that we came to hundreds of chapters and we still have so few ideas about such important figures, we may predict and speculate, but we should know there is not much canon here yet.

 

[Lord V returned]

For V, we just don't know what was his first purpose, why he "rebelled", even the reason he "committed suicide" can be changed

That is IF it's even true that V "rebelled" in the first place. I suspect we don't have the full truth about that instance either. It might just be that what happened there was also distorted and from Arlene's perspective(The pocket) we just didn't get much information about it at all. The reason I say that is because of how Luslec reacted to Arie Hon's line.

Arie Hon: It saddens me, you know. One by one, all my dearest friends are leaving me. Give my regards to Arlene and V. Although they might not wish to hear from me.
Luslec: Ha...! What are you talking about? You people are the ones... who chose to leave. Or have you forgotten?! WHAT DID YOU EXPECT TO HAPPEN AFTER WHAT YOU DID?!

Going by that, I suspect that there's more to the whole war than what we were led to believe. Luslec knows the truth of it for sure, and it's implied stated by him that it's because of something the Family Heads did and which it seems they forgot. As we already know, at that point they already erased a lot of their memories already! It was also hinted at by Eduan, Gustang, Traumerei that they obviously changed after having those memories erased.

Eduan: Sigh.You know, maybe Amizu is right. Ever since we lost our memories of that day... we've changed.

So clearly something went on back in the day that we as a reader have not been informed about. The only clues we have to things not being as they appear is 1.) Gustang, one of the Family Heads himself admitting that history is a lie and he is the one that rewrote it on their behalf, 2) Luslec implying that more happened than what we were shown and it was because of those incidents that they split up or left/rebelled in the first place.

 

[Lonatian]

Lonatian, You have too much pure conjectures. You can have them if you want but they are not canon, we don't know yet, not to mention the fact that you will not enjoy ToG becuase you already think you know many yet to be uncovered things.

So why can the above person say that history is a big lie when neither of you know anything?
I asked him what history lied, but he couldn't tell me. He insisted that erasing means changing, changing means lying. They're not even synonymous.
Do you two have the right to make up stories?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 30, 2025, Original Post Date: Jan 30, 2025 ---

We know of Zahard superficially, there are some obvious things but why he stopped climbing, why he was obsessed with being the king is more or less unknown, we only know second-hand sources. For V, we just don't know what was his first purpose, why he "rebelled", even the reason he "committed suicide" can be changed. Hence, we can't make comparisons among two things, which one of them is barely known the other is pure mystery.

I really don't understand what you're saying.
Why would you want to know the reasons for two people's choices to prove that they are different?

Do I still need to explain this basic thing?

It's obvious that Zahard and V's paths are not the same. Zahard and the 10 FHs' thoughts are different from V's. Eduan himself said that in HF.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 30, 2025 ---

Could you please introduce us "Tower of Lonatian" more properly?

Just like how you defended the person who said Zahard stole V's fate. You two like to make up stories.

Am I wrong?

In Traumerei's flashback, GoG said that V's choice made everything evolve, even evil creatures, and he said he didn't regret his decision.
Plus, at the time of the proposal party, it was clear that those people didn't want to kill their friends. Yirang helped Amizu, Hon spared Luslec. If V's side did not drag all of their towerborn friends away, using them to attack Team 11, then those people wouldn't need to become enemies.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 30, 2025 ---

Let's say you are making a scientific experiment. You got 20 results, 8 of them were messed up. You removed them and report results from the 12 you chose. What you did was fabricating the results. Removing losers from the history is not the common sense, history being written by the winner is the common one. At some point, winner may decide removing, which also means fabricating a history, because the real history should have the deleted record. And it is not a less bad thing than badmouthing, as badmouthing generally creates more followers for the badmouthed one, while if you manage to erase, you won't have further enemies.

You may not like V, and I don't like Zahard. But I am fine with him being in the story. It is just that we came to hundreds of chapters and we still have so few ideas about such important figures, we may predict and speculate, but we should know there is not much canon here yet.

But the problem is that Zahard erased V and Arlene from history because he was the victor. Besides, V and Arlene were two people. He may have killed a billion people, erased 2, the remaining 999 999 998 people were not erased. Is 2/1 000 000 000 enough of a ratio for towerborn to care? Like I said, if Zahard did not erase V and Arlene, he just added two more loser at the list.

Zahard doesn't care about history. He didn't make it up. More importantly, he was the victor at that time. He should have erased the story of Enryu and Phanta to suit your wishes.

If you are a V fan, you should face the facts. V's failure is his own doing. Blaming Zahard doesn't make him any better.

 

[arrowofsky]

So why can the above person say that history is a big lie when neither of you know anything?
I asked him what history lied, but he couldn't tell me. He insisted that erasing means changing, changing means lying. They're not even synonymous.
Do you two have the right to make up stories?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 30, 2025, Original Post Date: Jan 30, 2025 ---

I really don't understand what you're saying.
Why would you want to know the reasons for two people's choices to prove that they are different?

Do I still need to explain this basic thing?

It's obvious that Zahard and V's paths are not the same. Zahard and the 10 FHs' thoughts are different from V's. Eduan himself said that in HF.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 30, 2025 ---

Just like how you defended the person who said Zahard stole V's fate. You two like to make up stories.

Am I wrong?

In Traumerei's flashback, GoG said that V's choice made everything evolve, even evil creatures, and he said he didn't regret his decision.
Plus, at the time of the proposal party, it was clear that those people didn't want to kill their friends. Yirang helped Amizu, Hon spared Luslec. If V's side did not drag all of their towerborn friends away, using them to attack Team 11, then those people wouldn't need to become enemies.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 30, 2025 ---

But the problem is that Zahard erased V and Arlene from history because he was the victor. Besides, V and Arlene were two people. He may have killed a billion people, erased 2, the remaining 999 999 998 people were not erased. Is 2/1 000 000 000 enough of a ratio for towerborn to care? Like I said, if Zahard did not erase V and Arlene, he just added two more loser at the list.
About the how history was changed or which erased, I missed the part where we were assured canonically that the omissions were only Arlene/V and NOTHING ELSE for sure. There may be much more, "thousands", "billions" are trivial in ToG. I know we are all impatient because of this hiatus after seeing some really good actions but come on.

Zahard doesn't care about history. He didn't make it up. More importantly, he was the victor at that time. He should have erased the story of Enryu and Phanta to suit your wishes.

If you are a V fan, you should face the facts. V's failure is his own doing. Blaming Zahard doesn't make him any better.

A person who says "we don't have enough info to decide surely about" does not 'make up' stories.
The reason you really don't understand what I am saying is beyond this forum. If you want to compare two things, you need to know both. It is not just "reasons", we know Zahard only very superficially and always from second-hand, while V was purely unknown and we just saw several panels of him only. You need to know better to make a healthy comparison, the only thing you know about their fate is that currently Zahard is the king and V is probably in a resuscitation period at best. You can only conjecture about their previous fate. Lord V returned can think one thing, you can think another.

 

[Lonatian]

A person who says "we don't have enough info to decide surely about" does not 'make up' stories.
The reason you really don't understand what I am saying is beyond this forum. If you want to compare two things, you need to know both. It is not just "reasons", we know Zahard only very superficially and always from second-hand, while V was purely unknown and we just saw several panels of him only. You need to know better to make a healthy comparison, the only thing you know about their fate is that currently Zahard is the king and V is probably in a resuscitation period at best. You can only conjecture about their previous fate. Lord V returned can think one thing, you can think another.

That guy said history is a big lie. He repeated it many times. But he did not provide any evidence that Zahard made it up.

Why are you complaining only to me?

Because you do not like Zahard, you trample on fairness, while you know that guy is wrong.

I said it, and said it many times. There is no reason to blame Zahard for V's failed life.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 30, 2025, Original Post Date: Jan 30, 2025 ---

Erasing the existence of those two doesn't affect how the towerborns think of Zahard. Zahard also did not pretend to be a saint with altruism and love for humanity.
I've already said, even if Zahard doesn't erase them, the world will just think of them as two losers.

How do you expect the towerborns to react?

If they need to oppose the government, just join FUG, they're there, they'll tell you the "wonderful" story about Zahard.

 

[Lord V returned]

That guy said history is a big lie. He repeated it many times. But he did not provide any evidence that Zahard made it up.

Why are you complaining only to me?

Because you do not like Zahard, you trample on fairness, while you know that guy is wrong.

I said it, and said it many times. There is no reason to blame Zahard for V's failed life.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 30, 2025, Original Post Date: Jan 30, 2025 ---

Erasing the existence of those two doesn't affect how the towerborns think of Zahard. Zahard also did not pretend to be a saint with altruism and love for humanity.
I've already said, even if Zahard doesn't erase them, the world will just think of them as two losers.

How do you expect the towerborns to react?

If they need to oppose the government, just join FUG, they're there, they'll tell you the "wonderful" story about Zahard.

There's no need for me to prove anything. It's literally written in the story that History is false. History was erased, History was changed. It's not my fault that you lack the ability to read and comprehend things. Nor is it my fault that you lack the ability to understand how erasing things from history changes it. That's all on you.

You can reply back to me again once you actually sit and think about how erasing history changes it. Once you've done that then I can at least take comfort in the fact that you advanced past kindergarten and we might have a decent debate again. Until then you're just wasting my time with things that should be common sense to anyone and I'm not here to rectify your nation's failed education system.

 

[Lonatian]

There's no need for me to prove anything. It's literally written in the story that History is false. History was erased, History was changed. It's not my fault that you lack the ability to read and comprehend things. Nor is it my fault that you lack the ability to understand how erasing things from history changes it. That's all on you.

You can reply back to me again once you actually sit and think about how erasing history changes it. Once you've done that then I can at least take comfort in the fact that you advanced past kindergarten and we might have a decent debate again. Until then you're just wasting my time with things that should be common sense to anyone and I'm not here to rectify your nation's failed education system.

It's your fault for not knowing how to spell. And not understanding what words mean.
No one calls history a big lie like you. You assume that ERASE is CHANGE, CHANGE is LIE. They are three words, they are not the same.

Even Zahard wasn't the one who recorded history. But for you, all of V's failures were Zahard's fault.

I said, unless you are a historian, no one can know the whole story. We cannot know the names of all the defeated generals, only the victors are remembered.

You simply do not accept that Zahard was the victor and V was the loser. You are looking for reasons to deny Zahard's victory.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2025, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2025 ---

The public education system cannot teach you all the details of history.

History belongs to the victors.

All you are taught is what your government has decided. If you do not study, you will not know what is right and what is wrong.

Erasing and lying are two different things. For example, a general who lost a war.
- Erasing means you do not know that person existed. It does not matter because you do not know anything.
- Lying means history say that he was the worst terrorist who killed millions of people. That general will be disgraced and cursed forever by people.

I don't see any similarity between them, ignorance and misunderstanding are not the same. Both are not knowing the truth, but lying makes it so much worse.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2025 ---

Just because I left out some details in my story, you immediately call me a liar.
What if I didn't know? What if I forgot?
I only summarized the content, but it's still the truth.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2025 ---

You should change your inaccurate way of thinking.

 

[Lord V returned]

Erasing something is not changing something, changing it is not lying about it's true context - Some uneducated guy 2025

 

[Lonatian]

Erasing something is not changing something, changing it is not lying about it's true context - Some uneducated guy 2025

Erasing means lying - A definition a guy made up to blame others.

Zahard is still the winner, no matter how much you want to deny it. History was not written by him, nor did he make it up.
I don't understand why you want people to admit that Zahard lied just because he or someone else erased V and Arlene from history.
What benefit did he get from that?
In your opinion, wouldn't it be more reasonable for him to erase the story of Enryu or Phanta?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2025, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2025 ---

Not to mention you was not as good at debating as I was, and you called me uneducated.
That was a sign of defeat.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2025 ---

V's fans are the same. They don't like to talk politely.

 

[Ray Barracuda]

What benefit did he get from that?
In your opinion, wouldn't it be more reasonable for him to erase the story of Enryu or Phanta?

Yeah, V is pretty small in comparison to Enryu and Phanta who actually had a direct impact to undermine the authority of Zahard.


I mean Phanta straight up checked him in the throne room and left after killing his rankers yet Zahard did nothing to change this history nor hide it.


Nothing of V's existence is remotely as threatening to his image.

 

[Lonatian]

Yeah, V is pretty small in comparison to Enryu and Phanta who actually had a direct impact to undermine the authority of Zahard.


I mean Phanta straight up checked him in the throne room and left after killing his rankers yet Zahard did nothing to change this history nor hide it.


Nothing of V's existence is remotely as threatening to his image.

It was obvious. Phanta and Enryu hurt his reputation more than the two losers.
Phanta and Enryu were still at the top of the rankings. Zahard didn't even make up any stories to ruin their reputations.

 

[Lord V returned]

Yeah, V is pretty small in comparison to Enryu and Phanta who actually had a direct impact to undermine the authority of Zahard.


I mean Phanta straight up checked him in the throne room and left after killing his rankers yet Zahard did nothing to change this history nor hide it.


Nothing of V's existence is remotely as threatening to his image.

Oh come on. How can he change that history? Even if we forget the phanta nonsense, there is absolutely NO WAY he can erase the history of Enryu. The entire Tower turned red when he entered and you think what? People just won't notice it?

Besides, it's not the same thing at all. V was a "champion" of the people, as was evident by the fact that people joined them in their effort to steal the key, unlock the door and reach new heights. If you want to prevent that hope from staying and fueling the masses then you need to write the source of it out. Kind of like how some communist nations wrote Jesus out of "history" to break that hope for the people and when it obviously failed they started to rewrite it again to paint Jesus as a communist etc etc Or perhaps a bit more "modern", how the CCP is trying to rewrite history through censorship of things like Tiananmen square, Mao Zedong etc.

V was a "beacon" for the people, as long as they knew of him and history knew of him, people could continue to hope and fight. That was erased completely as if he never existed at all, along with any possible actual contributions he made. Same with Arlene.

So of course now you'll mention FUG, but FUG was also "rewritten" as nothing more than a "common criminal organization", to deter people from even listening to anything it says lest they somehow end up being guilty by association. Rewriting history changes it.

Bam himself is now that same "beacon" that needs to extinguished at all costs, even to the point of attacking a train that is for regulars alone, or attacking them at a regular only station(last station)... If Bam was to lose this war/battle, then you can bet your ass that Zahard will rewrite history again to make it look like "Juy Viole Grace" never existed at all.

 

[Ray Barracuda]

Oh come on. How can he change that history? Even if we forget the phanta nonsense, there is absolutely NO WAY he can erase the history of Enryu. The entire Tower turned red when he entered and you think what? People just won't notice it?

Besides, it's not the same thing at all. V was a "champion" of the people, as was evident by the fact that people joined them in their effort to steal the key, unlock the door and reach new heights. If you want to prevent that hope from staying and fueling the masses then you need to write the source of it out. Kind of like how some communist nations wrote Jesus out of "history" to break that hope for the people and when it obviously failed they started to rewrite it again to paint Jesus as a communist etc etc Or perhaps a bit more "modern", how the CCP is trying to rewrite history through censorship of things like Tiananmen square, Mao Zedong etc.

V was a "beacon" for the people, as long as they knew of him and history knew of him, people could continue to hope and fight. That was erased completely as if he never existed at all, along with any possible actual contributions he made. Same with Arlene.

So of course now you'll mention FUG, but FUG was also "rewritten" as nothing more than a "common criminal organization", to deter people from even listening to anything it says lest they somehow end up being guilty by association. Rewriting history changes it.

Bam himself is now that same "beacon" that needs to extinguished at all costs, even to the point of attacking a train that is for regulars alone, or attacking them at a regular only station(last station)... If Bam was to lose this war/battle, then you can bet your ass that Zahard will rewrite history again to make it look like "Juy Viole Grace" never existed at all.

Enryu ok but rewriting Phantas history is unironically more easier cause Phanta came in like a ghost leaving no permanent mark in the tower unlike Enryu.

Note, this is not a strength comparison I'm making here cause good lord Enryu is never scratching even a random low-tier Axis let alone a top 5 King like Phanta.



And Zahard doesn'tshy away from being a tyrant nor does he care to pretend he'sbenevolent so I see no reason why V being a beacon of hope shoulda bothered him.


In fact we have all the info and hints we need that Zahard and V's fallout fallout had much more to do with Arlene than with V being some promised one.