Seinen Vagabond by Inoue Takehiko

[Homeless Ninja]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

Well, I was wrong too, no disrespect to the great Ito, it's just that I didn't expect Musashi to ever lose again. I was actually shocked by his utter defeat, though it's also an exciting turn since it means he still has further to go. If I were him, I'd seek out Ittosai, not nesesarially for a rematch, but to learn how to continue down the path of the sword with a disability. Ittosai completely outmatched him from the beginning, mentally and physically. It was amazing how he's still managed to remain on top without even being able to draw his sword, and to even use it to his advantage. Also, if I had to guess, I'd agree with 宮本寶藏 that Ittosai probably lost his fingers due to firearms or another powder-related injury, which would be poetic considering his disdain for them and how they symbolize the end of the era of the sword.

Between Kojiro, Musashi, and now Ittosai, this series is becoming more like Real. =)

 

[Musashi_Keiji]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

Really? you guys didn't think Musash would ever lose again?

I expected him to half-way lose to some people like he did with Inshun, where he loses then trains and fights again and wins. Like I read somewhere that he fights Gennosuke(a spear master by this time) and loses. Then challenges him again and wins.

But him losing to a palm thrust was surprising. Stuff like this is what keeps the story good

 

[Homeless Ninja]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

Really? you guys didn't think Musash would ever lose again?

Well, Musashi is famous in part for arguably never having lost, and in the novel he's practically invincible from cover to cover, so despite Inoue's take being more down to earth, it's certainly not something I ever expect. Even the thing with Inshun still feels kind of blasphemous. Him suffering any kind of defeat in general makes me feel like the kid in The Princess Bride, "Hold it! Hold it! Grandpa, you're getting the story wrong!"

I expected him to half-way lose to some people like he did with Inshun, where he loses then trains and fights again and wins.

Yeah, the perfect counter example to what happened here is Ueda in 224; he rushes an out of sorts Musashi, gets inside, and hits Musashi before he can even draw his blade and respond. Musashi's only saving grace was Ueda's caution around him, and Ittosai obviously wasn't burdened by any such compunction. Actually, Musashi performed much better here in spite of the result.

Anyway, it's not like I thought he wouldn't continue to be challenged, but since returning to Kyoto and defeating Seijuro, he's been seemingly invincible already. Even in the above example, Musashi's moment of weakness seems perfunctory before his inevitable triumph. This was obviously very different, no half-way loss, he was just beat down in one move flat. What's funny is before this I felt like he almost had achieved too much too soon, his victory in any fight seemingly a forgone conclusion. That's what made this so surprising, and refreshing as well.

Like I read somewhere that he fights Gennosuke(a spear master by this time) and loses. Then challenges him again and wins.

As the legend goes, Musashi won the first match, and Gonnosuke the second, albeit that's Gonnosuke side of the story (others claim it a tie, if they even dueled at all). In the novel, of course it's portrayed that Musashi never really lost but magnanimously concedes as Gonnosuke becomes his disciple. Speaking of, that's another person I'm looking forward to this Musashi running into. I wonder how Gonnosuke has matured since we last saw him.

But him losing to a palm thrust was surprising. Stuff like this is what keeps the story good

Agreed, and one of the coolest single attacks in the series, Ittosai's double feint was brilliant.

 

[Chortles]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

For some reason, I think UFC's Lyoto Machida would really like this manga. XD

As for Ittousai choosing that exact moment to move in, before Musashi could choose a "flight or fight" response to Ittousai's entering the circle... that's "timing" for ya.

 

[宮本寶藏]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

I guess I was right this time around:
http://www.onemanga.com/Vagabond/281/12/

Just as I assumed, this is soooo Itto's style which makes him a super cool/egotistic dude.

Even though I can't read Japanese, I can read simplified/traditional Chinese, which helps a little. Because when I was reading the 281 raw, on the page posted above, I see in Itto's chat box it had the Kanji word "酒". Of course, although may look the same as traditional Chinese, often enough the meaning are not the same. So I had to make an educated guess, but I know for a fact that "酒" means "Alcohol/Wine". Since in Vagabond, Itto is like the most egotistic man I've yet to read, it's just like him to say something like that.

Imagine, like you're a celebrity, say ...someone big. You walk into a restaurant, drinks a Vodka Martini then walk out without paying. As you walk towards the exit, you tell the waiter that the cup you just used to drink the Martini is the payment. Why? Because you're so damn famous and important, everything you touch becomes priceless.

 

[DrTopo]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

For some reason, I think UFC's Lyoto Machida would really like this manga. XD

What about Matt Hamill? I'm sure a deaf fighter could relate to Kojiro and the whole "listening to your body thing".

 

[Homeless Ninja]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

Just as I assumed, this is soooo Itto's style which makes him a super cool/egotistic dude.

Haha, he certainly is, though still very matter of fact about it. It's almost a grudging acknowledgment of his celebrity just so he can exploit it, as is the case here or when he used his name to get to Yagyu. Otherwise, he doesn't seem to have much use for it, he's the type of man that rather be feared than revered.

What about Matt Hamill? I'm sure a deaf fighter could relate to Kojiro and the whole "listening to your body thing".

It actually makes me wonder if Musashi's leg will ever totally recover, or if he's going to have to live with and become stronger for it like Kojiro. Before, Musashi felt like he would have won their match, now the playing field has been evened.

 

[Chortles]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

What about Matt Hamill? I'm sure a deaf fighter could relate to Kojiro and the whole "listening to your body thing".

Did not realize that about Hamill... on the other hand, supposedly he's Jon "Bones" Jones' greatest upcoming challenge.

The reason for my Machida mention was because of Musashi specifically using the circle to represent the fighting ranges. The relation of the Machida family take on Shotokan-ryu (his father is supposedly 7th dan and innovated a personal variation passed down to his sons) to the sword is deeper than merely "never get hit"... get what I mean?

In this case, either Musashi didn't have it down pat and thus was not prepared, or Ittousai understood it himself (intuitively or not) even before Musashi admitted what it was, so he was not confused and entered range before Musashi could either counterattack or move away... or make the decision to do either.

Funny thing is, in playing the PS2 game Kengo 3, the concept is there, even if as a versus fighting game I can't use a circle to represent it.

 

[Homeless Ninja]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

The reason for my Machida mention was because of Musashi specifically using the circle to represent the fighting ranges. The relation of the Machida family take on Shotokan-ryu (his father is supposedly 7th dan and innovated a personal variation passed down to his sons) to the sword is deeper than merely "never get hit"... get what I mean?

In this case, either Musashi didn't have it down pat and thus was not prepared, or Ittousai understood it himself (intuitively or not) even before Musashi admitted what it was, so he was not confused and entered range before Musashi could either counterattack or move away... or make the decision to do either.

Musashi did counter, but the other part of this equation is that he was countering an attack that wasn't there, Ittosai's sword feint, rather than Ito's true attack. Theoretically, if Ito had been able to draw his sword with his right hand as he telegraphed, perhaps that counter by Musashi would have been good enough to stop Ito's attack and create one of his own. Conversely, if Musashi had guessed Ito's intentions correctly, he may have performed an appropriate counter, so rather than merely gashing Ito's shoulder, which may have merely been incidental if he was trying to fend off Ito's sword rather than attack Ito himself, Musashi possibly could have cut him down outright, or run him through even if he still absorbed the blow dealt by Ito. As it is though, we'll never know if Musashi's counter would have been good enough (unless it's analyzed further in the story), but it certainly wasn't in this case.

I'm curious of what we'll see in 282. I'm hoping that Otsu's flute will give Yagyu a reason to hang on a little longer, perhaps even long enough to affect Musashi's current fate. Going further, I'd like to see Musashi pursue Ittosai with an improved mindset.

 

[Shinsatsu]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

282 is sopposed to come out this week...

 

[Daarigaz]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

i have a question, if musahi had used his longest sword.. wouldnt him have made a deadlier wound to itto... i mean, he realised takezo was fast enought to counter after he knocked him, and asks "how many points is that, would you say"(accordin to Edited Manga version i read)
for some reason he countered with the smaller sword... or short sword is better to counter the attack what he thought itto was going to do... so confusing to me...

(srry for my bad english.... )

 

[fantheblaze]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

Longer sword means longer time to pull out of the sheath and swing.
The sword would probably be blocked by the shoulder, too since it is longer and the tip would reach past behind the person if that makes sense.

 

[Homeless Ninja]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

It's all about time and space; as fantheblaze said, longer sword means longer time and longer range needed to attack. As in volume 8 when, after a failed attack by Musashi, In'ei noted his bokken was too long; had it been a proper sword, Inshun would be dead. In this case, Ittosai moved in so fast that there wasn't even room for the short sword to be effective, so the long sword might not have touched him at all.

 

[Aqsa]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

It's all about time and space; as fantheblaze said, longer sword means longer time and longer range needed to attack. As in volume 8 when, after a failed attack by Musashi, In'ei noted his bokken was too long; had it been a proper sword, Inshun would be dead. In this case, Ittosai moved in so fast that there wasn't even room for the short sword to be effective, so the long sword might not have touched him at all.

Incorrect. In'ei mentioned that Inshun would be dead because Inshun was blocking with the middle, wooden part of his spear. A swing by Musashi with a real sword would have penetrated the wood and cut down Inshun.

A bokken is actually far lighter than a steel katana, and is thus faster.

In case anybody was wondering Vagabond 282 was released in Japan. Can't wait for the scans!

 

[Homeless Ninja]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

Incorrect. In'ei mentioned that Inshun would be dead because Inshun was blocking with the middle, wooden part of his spear. A swing by Musashi with a real sword would have penetrated the wood and cut down Inshun.

A bokken is actually far lighter than a steel katana, and is thus faster,

Interpretation. While that's also true, depending on the angle at which Inshun initially blocked Musashi, I was emphasizing In'ei's comments pertaining to the length of Musashi's sword to make a point relevant to the conversation, namely Musashi's encounter with Ittosai, not recounting the details his battle with Inshun. Sorry if it was misleading though, wasn't my intention.

A bokken is actually far lighter than a steel katana, and is thus faster.

Naturally, though it depends on the Bokken and the Katana of course, and the balance of the particular weapon. It actually makes me wonder about the weight of the bokken's Musashi uses in Vagabond, as they're pretty hefty looking in some cases, particularly the one he gets from Oko that looks like it's for heavy training.

In case anybody was wondering Vagabond 282 was released in Japan. Can't wait for the scans!

Me neither! It's been a little while already and they haven't surfaced though, 283 is going to be out before long.

 

[宮本寶藏]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

Vagabond 283 is out, but 282 is missing. Somebody forgot to scan Morning #44 lol... wth...

---

Uh... and 283 is like 8 pages o_o; what's going on?

 

[Dante Julius]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

Damn it. Well, we'll do 283 for the time being, then 282 whenever it comes out. Hopefully there's nothing heavily contextually related to the previous chapter.

Edit:

Spoiler

Roughly finished my part and it looks like it should be able to stand on it's own well enough. It's one of those Matahachi flash back ones, heavy on the philosophy.

 

[Homeless Ninja]

Re: Vagabond 280 - 281 Discussion / 282 Prediction Thread

Vagabond 283 is out, but 282 is missing.
Somebody forgot to scan Morning #44 lol... wth...
<hr noshade size="1">
Uh... and 283 is like 8 pages o_o; what's going on?

Just as I feared about 282, though somebody did scan material from Morning #44, because Billy Bat #19 came out right on schedule of course. No accounting for taste I guess (no offense to Urasawa, but what kind of sick person overlooks Vagabond? Maybe it was issue #45 =). And yeah, 283 is a bit light at 12 pages, but not unheard of, and it all seems to be there.

Damn it. Well, we'll do 283 for the time being, then 282 whenever it comes out. Hopefully there's nothing heavily contextually related to the previous chapter.

It's too bad though, from the sketches it looked like 282 continued directly from where we left off with Musashi in 281. Oh well.

 

[Dante Julius]

Vagabond 282 - 283 Discussion / 284 Prediction Thread

Thankfully everything's in order now.

chapter 282 is out. I can't upload it here, but you can get it here:
http://nihilsinenefas.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/vagabond-c-282/

chapter 283 is out. I can't upload it here, but you can get it here:
http://nihilsinenefas.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/vagabond-c-283/


You can discuss the chapter, and predict the next one!

 

[L0ki]

Re: Vagabond 283 Discussion / 282 and 284 Prediction Thread

To read or not to read... that is the question...