Discussion Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

[nik87]

New bounties:

Daifuku: 300 millions
Oven: 300 millions

So, Sanji was having trouble with those weaklings?

 

[Franz]

So, Sanji was having trouble with those weaklings?

Since when does 300 million mean being weak?

 

[nik87]

Since when does 300 million mean being weak?

Since 500m mark became nothing special.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It's not surprising. Bounty has nothing to do with strength for the most part, but crime. If you commit a crime, you get a bounty... not if you grow strong, you get a bounty.

 

[nik87]

It's not surprising. Bounty has nothing to do with strength for the most part, but crime. If you commit a crime, you get a bounty... not if you grow strong, you get a bounty.

It has always been about combat abilities and the threat those combat abilities present. Everything else is just an extra on top of them.
Picking up a fight with Pudding is no crime or any fight between the pirates but the threat that picking on Pudding represents is attracting the wrath of a Yonko. Even tho you have to deal with a Yonko for picking on Pudding, the bounty of Pudding herself doesnt repesent that threat because her own combat abilities are meh. SH pirates going against BM pirates is no crime, remember?
When you see a seasoned brawler character like Oven and Daifuku, their bounties represent only their combat abilities, no more no less...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It has always been about combat abilities and the threat those combat abilities present. Everything else is just an extra on top of them.
Picking up a fight with Pudding is no crime or any fight between the pirates but the threat that picking on Pudding represents is attracting the wrath of a Yonko. Even tho you have to deal with a Yonko for picking on Pudding, the bounty of Pudding herself doesnt repesent that threat because her own combat abilities are meh. SH pirates going against BM pirates is no crime, remember?
When you see a seasoned brawler character like Oven and Daifuku, their bounties represent only their combat abilities, no more no less...

Nope. Fights between Pirates is an incident. Crimes and Incidents are what are accounted for in a bounty.

It only shows combat ability to the degree that the person is probably competent, it's a generalisation.

It isn't a measure of strength but crime.

Like I said, show me when a bounty has gone up without a crime? There's not one example.

It's never been about combat, otherwise, there'd be consistency.

In fact, I've already written about this before and this only further proves my point.

 

[Fox666]

So, Sanji was having trouble with those weaklings?

Sanji or Zoro are practically the same, so they are also weaklings...?

Since 500m mark became nothing special.

Absolutely not. Only legends from the past or the Emperor strongest fighters have bounties like that. The rookies with bounties of 200 or 300 million from 2 years ago have caused world-scale turmoil.

 

[Shasha23]

So, Sanji was having trouble with those weaklings?

why are you shocked, a 300m+ pirate almost killed him in 2 hits if not for Law saving him

 

[Franz]

Morgans is a user of Bird-Bird fruit model Albatross.
Charlotte Mont-d’Or bounty 120 millions.

 

[nik87]

Nope. Fights between Pirates is an incident. Crimes and Incidents are what are accounted for in a bounty.
It only shows combat ability to the degree that the person is probably competent, it's a generalisation.
It isn't a measure of strength but crime.
Like I said, show me when a bounty has gone up without a crime? There's not one example.
It's never been about combat, otherwise, there'd be consistency.
In fact, I've already written about this before and this only further proves my point.

Why hasnt Zoro and the rest gotten bounty increase after WCI events?
Incidents are not crimes.

Sanji or Zoro are practically the same, so they are also weaklings...?

Absolutely not. Only legends from the past or the Emperor strongest fighters have bounties like that. The rookies with bounties of 200 or 300 million from 2 years ago have caused world-scale turmoil.

They have never been the same, it will become clear soon enough.
They are quite weak compared to Persopero and Snack while Urogue defeated Snack...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Incidents are not crimes.

Crimes and incidents. Didn't say they're the same. they're the only things that raise Bounty and you can't disprove that even if you tried.

Like I said, find me a time bounty went up without a crime or incident, and you wont.

https://mangahelpers.com/forum/threads/bounties-how-are-they-attributed.3009003/: It's no coincidence that what I wrote here a year or 2 ago regarding bounty is still relevant because bounty and strength are not related, it's crime or incident.

Tell me why Robin didn't get a bounty for 20 years? Maybe it's because they had no idea what crimes or incidents she'd been involved in? How about Brook, 50 years... there's a clear trend and correlation.

Why hasnt Zoro and the rest gotten bounty increase after WCI events?

Obviously because Zoro wasn't involved in WCI.

Like I said, find me an example where a bounty went up without a crime or incident and you won't find one.

They are quite weak compared to Persopero and Snack while Urogue defeated Snack...

Urouge had a bounty of 108m last time we knew, yet he defeated a character of 602m. Has nothing to do with strength, but crime and incident.

Robin had a bounty of 80m, by your logic you must think an 8 year old Robin must have been as power as Boa Hancock.

 

[King Moe]

So, Sanji was having trouble with those weaklings?

They aren't weaklings, 300 million is still something and they could be stronger than their debut bounties as they haven't gone out to cause trouble for awhile to get more increasion.

Also you do realize that even Zoro dealing with Pica who has 99 million bounty, Hawkins with 320 million bounty, Killer with 200 million bounty. Don't think we should read on bounty meaning they be 'easy' to deal with or hard to deal with everytime. Bounties get hard to be raised nowadays, so if they been managing things on their Islands especially under someone, they don't have time to raise them.

Sanji and Zoro are in same boat and equals, but probably this arc they are facing more dangerous and bounty threats if their final opponents are who Oda been foreshadowing being King, Queen, Jack, or Orochi.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 1, 2019 ---

why are you shocked, a 300m+ pirate almost killed him in 2 hits if not for Law saving him

Doflamingo bounty though was frozen as Warlord. It can't be raised after that. He would have larger bounty if so kinda like in SBS Oda mentions if Marines knew prior of Crocodile actions, his bounty would be in 180 million+, but instead 80 million. Same can be said with Doffy as he defeated Law and Zoro couldn't cut his birdcage at all. Might have been 500 million+ or a bit more if they knew what he did and knows more.

 

[Shasha23]

Doflamingo bounty though was frozen as Warlord. It can't be raised after that. He would have larger bounty if so kinda like in SBS Oda mentions if Marines knew prior of Crocodile actions, his bounty would be in 180 million+, but instead 80 million. Same can be said with Doffy as he defeated Law and Zoro couldn't cut his birdcage at all. Might have been 500 million+ or a bit more if they knew what he did and knows more.

Yeah but it was sad when he ran away from Zoro and begged Fujitora to save him, kinda made Sanji into more of a joke since he was almost killed in 2 hits

 

[Franz]

Ships:
Vinsmoke: Saint German
Jorul and Jarul: Great Magni
Gerd: Naglfar

Birthplaces of the Charlotte family:
0996 Charlotte LinLin: 68 years ago“Grand Line”
1009 Charlotte Perospero: 50 years ago at a certain port
Katakuri, Daifuku, Oven: 48 years ago on the ship
1011 Charlotte Cracker: 45 years ago on ship
1003 Charlotte Brulee: 43 years ago at a certain port
1033 Charlotte Mont-d’Or: 38 years ago on ship
1049 Charlotte Smoothie: 35 years ago Totto Land
0983 Charlotte Pudding: 16 years ago Totto Land
1147 Charlotte Flampe: 15 years ago Totto Land

Haki:
No confirmation for any characters in the Germa pack.
Big Mom and Katakuri: All Three
Perospero, Cracker, Smoothie, Daifuku, and Oven confirmed to be users of Armament and Observation.


New Heights(with ages):
1066 Streusen 1.4m, 92 years old
0983 Charlotte Pudding 1.66m, 16 years old
1147 Charlotte Flampe 1.7m, 15 years old
1100 Carmel 1.85m, 80 years old
1007 Charlotte Chiffon 2.15m, 26 years old
1033 Charlotte Mont-d’Or 2.6m, 38 years old
1004 Vinsmoke Judge 2.72m, 56 years old
1070 Morgans 3.05m, 53 years old
1003 Charlotte Brulee 3.5m, 43 years old
1000 Pound 7.31m, 48 years old
0997 Charlotte Praline 8m, 29 years old
0411 Oimo 16m, 153 years old
0410 Kashii 17m, 156 years old
1111 Gerd 17m, 75 years old
1114 Jarul 20.5m, 345 years old (63 years ago)
1113 Jorul 21.5m, passed away at 344
1012 KingBaum 23.4m

1059 Prometheus over 2.39m
1060 Zeus over 2.32m


Profiles of some characters in the BMP pack that I translated:
0996 Charlotte LinLin
First Appearance: vol 83 chapter 829
Epithet: “Big Mom”
Fruit: Soul-Soul Fruit
Haki: Conqueror, Armament, Observation
Four Emperors
“Totto Land” Queen
Big Mom Pirates/Captain
【Profile】
Gender: female
Ship: Queen Mama Chanter
Birthday: February 15
Age: 68
Height: 8.8m
Birthplace: “Grand Line”
Favorite food: sweets
【Bounty】

1059 Prometheus
First Appearance: vol 85 chapter 853
Epithet: “Prometheus the Sun”
Fruit:
Haki:
Race: Homie
Big Mom Pirates/Member
【Profile】
Ship: Queen Mama Chanter
Birthday: July 19
Height: over 2.39m
Birthplace: “Grand Line”
Favorite food: Fire

In his early designs he had a Handlebar mustache.


1060 Zeus
First Appearance: vol 85 chapter 853
Epithet: “Zeus the Thundercloud”
Fruit:
Haki:
Race: Homie
Big Mom Pirates/Member
【Profile】
Ship: Queen Mama Chanter
Birthday: June 26
Height: over 2.32m
Birthplace: “Grand Line”
Favorite food: Thunderclouds made by Nami

In his early design his epithet was “Zeus of the North Wind”.


1009 Charlotte Perospero
First Appearance: vol 83 chapter 834
Epithet:
Fruit: Lick-Lick fruit
Haki: Armament, Observation
First son of Charlotte family
Candy Island Minister of Candy
Big Mom Pirates/ Member
【Profile】
Gender: male
Ship: Queen mama Chanter
Birthday: March 14
Age: 50
Height: 3.33m
Birthplace: a certain port
Favorite food: Candy, beef tongue
【Bounty】700 millions

1011 Charlotte Cracker
First Appearance: vol 83 chapter 835
Epithet: “Thousand Arms Cracker”
Fruit: Bis-Bis fruit
Haki: Armament, Observation
Tenth son of Charlotte family
Biscuits Island Minister of Biscuit
Big Mom Pirates/Three Sweet Commanders
【Profile】
Gender: male
Ship: Queen mama Chanter
Birthday: February 28
Age: 45
Height: 3.07m
Birthplace: on the ship
Favorite food: biscuits
【Bounty】860 millions


1033 Mont-d’Or
First Appearance: vol 84 chapter 843
Epithet: “Scribe” Mont-d’Or
Fruit: Book-Book fruit
Haki:
19th son of Charlotte family
Cheese Island Minister of Cheese
Big Mom Pirates/Member
【Profile】
Gender: male
Ship: Queen mama Chanter
Birthday: April 23
Age: 38
Height: 2.6m
Birthplace: on the ship
Favorite food: Cheese
【Bounty】120 millions


1049 Charlotte Smoothie
First Appearance: vol 84 chapter 846
Epithet:
Fruit: Wring-Wring fruit
Haki: Armament, Observation
Race: Half Longleg-human
14th daughter of Charlotte family
100% Island Minister of Juice
Big Mom Pirates/ Three Sweet Commanders
【Profile】
Gender: female
Ship: Queen mama Chanter
Birthday: October 12
Age: 35
Height: 4.64m
Birthplace: “Grand Line” Totto Land
Favorite food: smoothie
【Bounty】932 millions


1076 Charlotte Katakuri
First Appearance: vol 86 chapter 860
Epithet:
Fruit: Mochi-Mochi fruit
Haki: Conqueror, Armament, Observation
Second son of the Charlotte family
Wheat Island Minister of Flour
Big Mom Pirates/Three Sweet Commanders
【Profile】
Gender: male
Ship: Queen Mama Chanter
Birthday: November 25
Age: 48
Height: 5.09m
Birthplace: on board
Favorite food: donut
【Bounty】1 billion 57 millions


1087 Charlotte Daifuku
First Appearance: vol 86 chapter 864
Epithet:
Fruit: Hoya-Hoya fruit
Haki: Armament, Observation
Third son of the Charlotte family
Poripori Island Minister of Beans
Big Mom Pirates/member
【Profile】
Gender: male
Ship: Queen Mama Chanter
Birthday: November 25
Age: 48
Height: 4.89m
Birthplace: on board
Favorite food: mame daifuku
【Bounty】300 millions


1088 Charlotte Oven
First Appearance: vol 86 chapter 864
Epithet:
Fruit: Heat-Heat fruit
Haki: Armament, Observation
Fourth son of the Charlotte family
Yakigashi Island Minister of Browned food
Big Mom Pirates/Member
【Profile】
Gender: male
Ship: Queen Mama Chanter
Birthday: November 25
Age: 48
Height: 4.92m
Birthplace: on board
Favorite food: baked confectioneries
【Bounty】300 millions

“one of Big Mom Pirates’ main forces.”


1100 Carmel
First Appearance: vol 86 chapter 866
Epithets: “Sister Carmel” “Mother Carmel” “Holy Mother” “Mountain Witch”
Fruit: unknown name
Haki:
Child Trafficker
Sheep’s House/Holy Mother
【Profile】
Gender: female
Birthday: December 21
Age: 80(when missing)
Height: 1.85m
Birthplace: “West Blue”
Favorite foods: lamb, chocolate

 

[nik87]

@Hannibal Psyche Well, first off, the two of us had this debate at least two times if I recall correctly and we couldn't find common ground on this topic and I guess we won't be able to this time either so let's keep that in mind.

My arguments are the following:
1. Even for Robin, who at the first sight looks like threat only because of her knowledge, Aokiji says that her bounty is made of combat capabilities included. Combat capabilities were included in the bounty of an 8-year-old child and then he adds that her bounty also includes the threat she represents to WG. I dont know if you are debating and saying no to this but you can look it up, it is in the manga.

2. Your early definitions were stating that it was only for crimes against WG and I have been saying otherwise, the WCI happened and you included accidents into your definition. Surely, to be recognized by the WG something has to happen, crime or an accident, I am not disputing that because you dont get high bounty or any bounty if you are unknown and hidden from the world, no matter how strong you are. However, the incidents and crimes dont determine the height of the bounty, the combat capabilities of an individual are the main factor for that.

Luffy and Blackbeard were involved in the same incident - Impel Down and Marineford War, one got an increase of 100mil while being the ringleader, the other got an increase of 2.2Bil... It is not hard to guess why.

3. You posted a screenshot showing that underlings get an increase because of their captain and that's why I asked you why Zoro didnt get an increase thanks to his captain. Being involved or not doesnt have anything to do with getting an increase thanks to his captain and it obviously happens so rarely that it cannot be the main source of increase for any character. For Strawhats it only happened once and it occurred to only half of a crew and in the end that small increase will be just a minor part of their bounty.

Luffy's latest increase is not thanks to any crime, just another incident is not what increased it to 1.5Bil, it is a show of strength, it is a real representative of Luffy's combat capabilities after the time skip, a proof that he "won" against 1Bil strong opponent. He never gets a lower bounty increase than the guy who he defeated.

4. Make a distinction between established characters and new rising stars. Established pirates have a bounty which is not changing anywhere close to how fast it changes for the characters whose story we read and follow. Strawhats and their companions are constantly doing something and their bounties change almost every 2 arcs, that doesnt apply to established characters whose bounties are staying the same or they eventually increase if they end up on the side of Strawhats and get involved into something.

Rising stars are also Urogue and rest of Supernovas of course, they are trying to establish their dominance, to get part of the pie. The Shichibukai's are established individuals who have proven their strength and their bounties are frozen since they joined the WG, of course their bounties dont represent their real strength but they are at least strong how much it is shown on their bounty posters. The commanders under the Yonko are established pirates whose bounties we probably will never see change, maybe Blackbeards crew since they are a new player on the chessboard.

Same with Zoro dealing with Pica who has 99 million bounty, Hawkins with 320 million bounty, Killer with 200 million bounty. Don't think we should read on bounty meaning they be 'easy' to deal with or hard to deal with everytime. Bounties get hard to be raised nowadays, so if they been managing things on their Islands especially under someone, they don't have time to raise them.

Sanji and Zoro are in same boat and equals, but probably this arc they are facing more dangerous and bounty threats if their final opponents are who Oda been foreshadowing being King, Queen, Jack, or Orochi.

Zoro defeated his opponents, except Hawkins who he never fought until the end. Sanji, on the other hand, had plenty of opportunities against Daifuku and he couldnt do anything against him...
No, Zoro and Sanji are not equals and it is finally time for you to realize that. Zoro will most end up fighting King because, let's face it, there is no one more competent for that job while Sanji, will either fight a Supernova or a veteran from BM pirates and that is more than he can swallow but considering that he is a cook, it is good enough.

 

[King Moe]

@Hannibal Psyche Well, first off, the two of us had this debate at least two times if I recall correctly and we couldn't find common ground on this topic and I guess we won't be able to this time either so let's keep that in mind.

My arguments are the following:
1. Even for Robin, who at the first sight looks like threat only because of her knowledge, Aokiji says that her bounty is made of combat capabilities included. Combat capabilities were included in the bounty of an 8-year-old child and then he adds that her bounty also includes the threat she represents to WG. I dont know if you are debating and saying no to this but you can look it up, it is in the manga.

2. Your early definitions were stating that it was only for crimes against WG and I have been saying otherwise, the WCI happened and you included accidents into your definition. Surely, to be recognized by the WG something has to happen, crime or an accident, I am not disputing that because you dont get high bounty or any bounty if you are unknown and hidden from the world, no matter how strong you are. However, the incidents and crimes dont determine the height of the bounty, the combat capabilities of an individual are the main factor for that.

Luffy and Blackbeard were involved in the same incident - Impel Down and Marineford War, one got an increase of 100mil while being the ringleader, the other got an increase of 2.2Bil... It is not hard to guess why.

3. You posted a screenshot showing that underlings get an increase because of their captain and that's why I asked you why Zoro didnt get an increase thanks to his captain. Being involved or not doesnt have anything to do with getting an increase thanks to his captain and it obviously happens so rarely that it cannot be the main source of increase for any character. For Strawhats it only happened once and it occurred to only half of a crew and in the end that small increase will be just a minor part of their bounty.

Luffy's latest increase is not thanks to any crime, just another incident is not what increased it to 1.5Bil, it is a show of strength, it is a real representative of Luffy's combat capabilities after the time skip, a proof that he "won" against 1Bil strong opponent. He never gets a lower bounty increase than the guy who he defeated.

4. Make a distinction between established characters and new rising stars. Established pirates have a bounty which is not changing anywhere close to how fast it changes for the characters whose story we read and follow. Strawhats and their companions are constantly doing something and their bounties change almost every 2 arcs, that doesnt apply to established characters whose bounties are staying the same or they eventually increase if they end up on the side of Strawhats and get involved into something.

Rising stars are also Urogue and rest of Supernovas of course, they are trying to establish their dominance, to get part of the pie. The Shichibukai's are established individuals who have proven their strength and their bounties are frozen since they joined the WG, of course their bounties dont represent their real strength but they are at least strong how much it is shown on their bounty posters. The commanders under the Yonko are established pirates whose bounties we probably will never see change, maybe Blackbeards crew since they are a new player on the chessboard.




Zoro defeated his opponents, except Hawkins who he never fought until the end. Sanji, on the other hand, had plenty of opportunities against Daifuku and he couldnt do anything against him...
No, Zoro and Sanji are not equals and it is finally time for you to realize that. Zoro will most end up fighting King because, let's face it, there is no one more competent for that job while Sanji, will either fight a Supernova or a veteran from BM pirates and that is more than he can swallow but considering that he is a cook, it is good enough.

Zoro got damaged hard by Hawkins and tied with Killer who he fainted against him. The only defeat he did I mention was Pica, but he is only 99 million barely couldn't get 100 million or over before his bounty was frozen too. Compare to an Yonko group and these guys being Katakuri siblings and 300 million each? How that mean Zoro would have easier time when he can't handle those in similar areas of bounties? Sanji wasn't trying to fight them, but handle both greatly without much issues. Idk where you think he did nothing to Daifuku as last time we saw him he was fighting Giant Genie with ease.

A lot stuff points equally to their situations like Fox and Hannibal said. Along with bounties given doesn't mean their 'true power and limits'. There been many indication of this especially Marine are the ones who have to see first-hand or hear on what they can do. If they didn't or those with bounties gone out to increase their bounties in public, then it truly doesn't mean that's where they stand.

Nah after fainting backlash and story is going, Oda making Zoro vs Orochi. Sanji however been doing more work compare to him so him facing King or Queen make sense especially his side follows that after easily beating a T6H. When Zoro beat someone significant in the arc, we can say him facing higher challenges. Though his only legit win in Wano is defeating a member of fodder-like ninja squad. Nothing more.

 

[nik87]

Zoro got damaged hard by Hawkins and tied with Killer who he fainted agaibsted.

I stopped reading after this. Nothing to debate after seeing this delusional opinion.

 

[King Moe]

Yeah but it was sad when he ran away from Zoro and begged Fujitora to save him, kinda made Sanji into more of a joke since he was almost killed in 2 hits

Now that's the most non-factual statement I ever heard from someone on OP threads. Admiral running away from Zoro and Doflamingo 'begging' him to protect him? Reality is reality, Zoro couldn't handle them along with Law, not Sanji alone at that time in the arc.

 

[Shasha23]

Now that's the most non-factual statement I ever heard from someone on OP threads. Admiral running away from Zoro and Doflamingo 'begging' him to protect him? Reality is reality, Zoro couldn't handle them along with Law, not Sanji alone at that time in the arc.

1. Did Doffy nearly kill Sanji in 2 hits?
2. Did Doffy ask Fujitora for help?
3. Did Fujitora protect Doffy from Zoro?
4. When did Zoro and Law team up?

"not Sanji alone at that time in the arc" clarify

it was so badass seeing Doffy block Sanji's strongest attack without Haki but then it turned into despair when he ran away from Zoro and cried to Fujitora for help

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 1, 2019 ---

Sanji however been doing more work compare to him so him facing King or Queen make sense

The one and only time Sanji tried to step up and fight the vice-captain/2nd strongest no difficulty, the enemy even took pity on him, so him wearing big boi pants again ain't happening since he will get destroyed.
True backing a cake, crying and getting bullied and crying some more is a lot of work, your right man Sanji has been pushing hard

 

[King Moe]

1. Did Doffy nearly kill Sanji in 2 hits?
2. Did Doffy ask Fujitora for help?
3. Did Fujitora protect Doffy from Zoro?
4. When did Zoro and Law team up?

"not Sanji alone at that time in the arc" clarify

it was so badass seeing Doffy block Sanji's strongest attack without Haki but then it turned into despair when he ran away from Zoro and cried to Fujitora for help

1. Nope cause he survived. Though still lost. Never said he didn't lose. Though Law also got defeated and Zoro couldn't get past his birdcage. These are facts your ignoring.

2. Not really. Visitors did what he wants on his own, but knew he can't do harm to him without HQ permission and Warlord status.

3. What that means Zoro could handle Doffy if wasn't for Fujitora? He get defeated the same like with the latter. Means nothing at all.

4. Never said that, but your are spouting non-factual stuff.

Doflamingo defeated Law and Zoro couldn't best his Birdcage. Doflamingo was too strong for many others except Luffy at the time.

Again those statements are non-factual. Your losing ground here and getting off-track.