Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2015] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[De La Croissant]

ALL battle shonens nowadays are a copy of Hokuto no Ken.
Almost everything that the new ones do today, Hokuto aleady did before.
Yet, I never saw someone complaining about it.

This is because the battle shonens "copied" the formula, not the script. DB has influence of HNK, Saint Seiya too, but each one has distinct elements in its development. If the way of writing is too similar, with no differential, the reader will naturally complain. It's like Pokemon and Digimon. The base is the same, the execution is not.

 

[xi0]

Yeah, clearly Magi plagiarized The Tower of Druaga

It seems like people need to look up what actual plagiarism is. The amount of similar panels in shounen manga is probably pretty astounding, if you really went and looked for it. I remember the case regarding Hoshino's supposed plagiarism from years back and it was a bit more damning than this nonsense.

Many more examples can be found here.

 

[piau9000]

I remember a game called Hack. that had an anime and manga. There's some dungeons as the story centers around a virtual reality RPG that became "too real".
This came before Sword Art Online too. But again I don't see people saying that SAO copied it.

Another example is the heroes that grown hair when they transform. Most people believe that Dragon Ball created it, even though Ushio to Tora used it before.

In the end it all comes to the "seven basic plots".

---------- Post added at 07:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

This is because the battle shonens "copied" the formula, not the script. DB has influence of HNK, Saint Seiya too, but each one has distinct elements in its development. If the way of writing is too similar, with no differential, the reader will naturally complain. It's like Pokemon and Digimon. The base is the same, the execution is not.

There's several stances when Naruto/Bleach/One Piece/etc... used more than the "formula". Some events happens almost the same. The background of some characters are almost the same too.
People don't complain beacuse HnK is old and forgoten.

Now, let we imagine if Black Clover did something "almost" the same as One Piece/Naruto/etc...
People would do a shitstorm.




Ops, it's already happening.

 

[Unok]

If all are so obsessed about "plagiarism" or stealing ideas, why no one is complaining that Naruto seemingly took great inspiration from Ninku? No-paretns wind ninja, which uses "rasengan".

Now about Toriko anime returning, I don't think it will happen. If it doesn't happen this year, it's definitely not gonna happen especially taking Toriko's huge sales decline and unstable toc placements into consideration.

It obviously can't happen this year:
1) because Dragon Ball Super must be 13 eps in order for Toriko to take it's old time slot for Dream 9 and DB Super won't be 13 eps. They would be idiots to make new DB and be only 13 eps, especially when Toriko isn't ready to return.
2) because it have around 70 chapters after the last anime = not enough material for a new lengthy anime.

First anime started after 140 or so chapters. The anime almost caught up to the manga and was a good place to end, so they ended it there. Now it's obviously they wait for manga material to start it again. And if the rumor is right that DB Super will be 100 eps = 2 years = 100 more chapters -> around 170 chapters after the anime -> enough material for a lengthy anime. And that's when they will make Toriko's new anime.

Also World Trigger isn't big seller too, yet it got anime and it still doesn't sell like other high-selling Jump series, yet it gets another anime in October. So manga sales may not matter as much as you make them for anime adaptation. WT ToC position is also pathetic, yet it got anime and now 2nd anime.

 

[De La Croissant]

There's several stances when Naruto/Bleach/One Piece/etc... used more than the "formula". Some events happens almost the same. The background of some characters are almost the same too.
People don't complain beacuse HnK is old and forgoten.

Now, let we imagine if Black Clover did something "almost" the same as One Piece/Naruto/etc...
People would do a shitstorm.

Ops, it's already happening.

If you compare the first chapters of OP, HxH and Naruto, you will see that they share the same formula (boy goes on an adventure to be the best something), but both, written and design, go by different paths (Oda is cartoonish, Togashi's kinda weird/underground, and Kishimoto is more hysterical). If you compare the first BC chapters with these three titles, you will see that it shares formula, writing, MC and some design specifically from Naruto.

Now the author is changing? Great. He's getting his own style? Cool. And I wish him success, but then, again, after a start so similar, it is natural for people to complain and make fun of other things they find similar in the series. It will pass. With time. Don't worry. And to contribute: this is the last time I talk about it.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

There's several stances when Naruto/Bleach/One Piece/etc... used more than the "formula". Some events happens almost the same. The background of some characters are almost the same too.

Please enlighten me about this!

---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 PM ----------

If all are so obsessed about "plagiarism" or stealing ideas, why no one is complaining that Naruto seemingly took great inspiration from Ninku? No-paretns wind ninja, which uses "rasengan".

Ninjas, ninjas powers in general and ninjas with wind powers(elements) is highly common. In the beginning of the anime industry, Toei did an anime about that called: Boy Ninja Fujimaru of the Wind, and that was done in 1964. https://youtu.be/RoGR_f5qL2M?t=20s
For what I saw from Ninku the main character in fact has a mother still alive. Fujimaki is the same thing.

Better would be talking about Son Goku and Gon Janken.


About World Trigger and Toriko, the comparison is all wrong. First World Trigger airs at 6:30 a.m while Toriko was in the Dream 9/Big 9 timeslot(9 a.m). Second World Trigger is having another anime in October after 50 episodes(1 year), Toriko already had 147 episodes(3 years). Another anime of Toriko is not comparable of another anime of World Trigger right now.

Also note that World Trigger rankings in the Magazine are due to the author health problems. This was already officially clarified.

About Toriko coming after Dragon Ball Super. Toei by that time will have 3 options: Toriko, Old Epic series(Gegege no Kitaro, Dr. Slump, ...), new popular series(My Hero Academia with around 150 chapters by that time, Black Clover with around 120 chapter by that time, ...). Toriko is most probably not the best option they have, so hardly will it return after DBS.

 

[SharkBait]

Majin Bone sequel is more likely than a Toriko sequel. That deserved 50 more episodes

 

[Bigivelfhq]

Will give my 2 cents about this Black Clover discussion.
While plagiarism is too big a word to be calling Black Clover, the series is in fact heavily influenced and inspired in a lot of other works, and not in a good or smart way, being it manga or other things(Harry Potter for example).

Note that this is not Tabata first work like this, Hungry Joker was also heavily inspired of other works. In this case mainly D. Gray Man, to a point of having an exact same character and introduction arc like Miranda, and the character being revealed to be one of the bad guys that are some kind of deities/divinities, a power like "innocence" and a similar type of search for it, an organization like the Black Priets(here called White Joker), and the obvious comparisons continue and continue.

When an author takes inspirations in other works he should give it enough of his own spin, to turn it his. Tabata is not proficient in doing that(yet?).
This seems obvious by looking at something like My hero Academia that uses the overused themes of superheros comics and Battle shonen manga, just because of that certainly he took innumerable bits of inspiration from other places, but you don't see the same obviousness in what is shown.

This is obviously a negative in Tabata writing, but in the end, you just have to go past that and enjoy everything else in his work(or even embrace it). Or not and continuously and frequently complain XP.

Extra: Who said that Fairy Tail doesn't have the title of biggest Shonen action copycat doesn't real know what its talking about.

---------- Post added at 06:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 PM ----------

Majin Bone sequel is more likely than a Toriko sequel. That deserved 50 more episodes

Majin Bone is from TV Tokyo so it has nothing to do with Toriko that is from Fuji TV.

Majin Bone was amazing, but I don't think it will get a sequel. Not only Toei has its hands full right now(though they can always increase the workload a little more) but Majin Bone wasn't Mega popular and for Toei it was certainly just a side collaboration with Bandai and Shueisha. Unless the Cards are selling like water, I don't think Bandai will try to re-open all facets of the multimedia project.

 

[101nemesis]

It obviously can't happen this year:
1) because Dragon Ball Super must be 13 eps in order for Toriko to take it's old time slot for Dream 9 and DB Super won't be 13 eps. They would be idiots to make new DB and be only 13 eps, especially when Toriko isn't ready to return.
2) because it have around 70 chapters after the last anime = not enough material for a new lengthy anime.

First anime started after 140 or so chapters. The anime almost caught up to the manga and was a good place to end, so they ended it there. Now it's obviously they wait for manga material to start it again. And if the rumor is right that DB Super will be 100 eps = 2 years = 100 more chapters -> around 170 chapters after the anime -> enough material for a lengthy anime. And that's when they will make Toriko's new anime.

Also World Trigger isn't big seller too, yet it got anime and it still doesn't sell like other high-selling Jump series, yet it gets another anime in October. So manga sales may not matter as much as you make them for anime adaptation. WT ToC position is also pathetic, yet it got anime and now 2nd anime.

Well toriko's anime itself didn't really do that well now either. Sure ratings were okay but DVD sales-wise it didn't even sell 900 per volume other than the first one (or 2nd. Cant recollect). And the movie itself sold less DVD's than say what Bleach's anime volumes sold at it's lowest state i.e less than 1500k. Those are really poor numbers tbh. Also take in the fact that they severely changed the end of that battle.
And the difference between Toriko and WT is that Toriko was marketed a lot more than WT with its collaborations with Dragon Ball, One Piece and whatnot. WT, on the other hand, is clearly a low budget series.

 

[Caiops]

World Trigger anime is a little popular with female fans.

I see a lot of doujins since when the anime started. and more, DVD and BDs still sell 1,6k per volume, what is really much if you compare with what other series who air in the morning.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

Weekly Shounen Jump Issue 35 - 2015
Boku no Hero Academia (Cover, Lead Color Page, 1th Anniversary)
Ansatsu Kyoushitsu
Sesuji wo Pin! to
Deadman Killer (Color Page, Golden Future Cup #2)
PSI Kusuo Saiki
Black Clover
Hinomaru Zumou
Shokugeki no Souma
Haikyuu!! (Color Page)
Gintama
Best Blue
Nisekoi
Toriko
World Trigger
Kagamigami
Kochikame
Lady Justice
Bleach
Devilyman
Isobe Isobee Monogatari
One Piece (Absent)

Weekly Shounen Jump Issue 36 - Information
Black Clover (Cover and Lead Color Page)
Nisekoi (Color Page)
Galaxy Gang (Color Page, Golden Future Cup #3)

 

[RafaFedKilla]

Female audience really seems to have an effect on Jump. It's driving Straighten Up's rankings.

 

[stratofortress]

cover

 

[Mammo]

it's awesome how devilyman & lady justice gave kagami a new life


anyway, today soul catcher(s) have officially joined jump plus

http://plus.shonenjump.com/rensai_detail.html?item_cd=SHSA_JP01PLUS00002041_57

 

[Bigivelfhq]

Well toriko's anime itself didn't really do that well now either. Sure ratings were okay but DVD sales-wise it didn't even sell 900 per volume other than the first one (or 2nd. Cant recollect). And the movie itself sold less DVD's than say what Bleach's anime volumes sold at it's lowest state i.e less than 1500k. Those are really poor numbers tbh. Also take in the fact that they severely changed the end of that battle.
And the difference between Toriko and WT is that Toriko was marketed a lot more than WT with its collaborations with Dragon Ball, One Piece and whatnot. WT, on the other hand, is clearly a low budget series.

Toei reports certain data publicly, so it can be analysed!

Note: Toei reports their 4 best series of Domestic Licensing, Overseas Film and Overseas Licensing. Licensing is any thing done of the franchise that isn't from Toei and so that company has to make a contract and pay Toei. Film counts Movies, TVs, DVDs(also BDS) and others(Social gaming for example).

Toei Toriko's sales number reported:
2013 -> Domestic Licensing(4th best Toei series): 88 Million yen(709,104 dollars)
2012 -> Domestic Licensing(4th best Toei series): 167 Million yen(1.35 Million dollars), Oversea Film(4th best Toei series): 76 Million yen(612,408 dollars)
2011 -> Domestic Licensing(4th best Toei series): 234 Million yen(1.89 Million dollars)

As comparison we have
4th place of Domestic Licensing:
- 339 Million Yen(2.73 Million dollars) in 2014 by Sailor Moon
--- Toriko appearance ---
- 112 in 2010 by Digimon
- 73 in 2009 by Kinnikuman
- 122 in 2008 by Kinnikuman
- 148 in 2007 by One Piece
- 85 in 2006 by One Piece
(Yep, in 2007 and 2006 One Piece was just the 4th best Toei Domestic License. This was between beginning of Ennies Lobby and beginning of Thriller Bark)

4th place Overseas Film:
- 174 in 2014 by Sailor Moon
- 221 in 2013 by Saint Seiya
--- Toriko Appearance ---
- 60 in 2011 by Pretty Cure
- 62 in 2010 by Saint Seiya
- 96 in 2009 by Pretty cure
- 127 in 2008 by Hokuto no Ken
- 174 in 2007 by Digimon
- 182 in 2006 by Pretty Cure

1st and 2nd place of Domestic Licensing during Toriko run:
- in 2013, 3,925 by One Piece and 977 by Pretty Cure
- in 2012, 5,254 by One Piece and 1,061 by Pretty Cure
- in 2012, 4,837 2011 by One Piece and 1,046 by Pretty Cure

1st and 2nd place of Overseas Film during Toriko run:
- in 2013, 796 by One Piece and 431 by Dragon Ball
- in 2012 436 by One Piece and 338 by Dragon Ball
- in 2011 681 by Dragon Ball and 662 by One Piece

 

[conankudo]

I mentioned it a couple of weeks before, it is safe to assume that One Piece will get Lead Colour Pages in Issue 37-38 (Double Issue due to Obon Festival) like the years before
Preview 37-38
Cover: Jump All Stars
Lead CP: One Piece (18th Anniversary)

 

[Gikiseima]

it's awesome how devilyman & lady justice gave kagami a new life

LOL

 

[DoctorApollo]

Female audience really seems to have an effect on Jump. It's driving Straighten Up's rankings.

Are you sure it's female audience? YOKO has a huge online following, I think this is just a side effect of that.

 

[piau9000]

Please enlighten me about this!

Do the job yourself.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FistOfTheNorthStar/TropesAToH
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FistOfTheNorthStar/TropesIToP
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FistOfTheNorthStar/TropesQToZ

 

[conankudo]

I
There's several stances when Naruto/Bleach/One Piece/etc... used more than the "formula". Some events happens almost the same. The background of some characters are almost the same too.
People don't complain beacuse HnK is old and forgoten.

Now, let we imagine if Black Clover did something "almost" the same as One Piece/Naruto/etc...
People would do a shitstorm.




Ops, it's already happening.

Do the job yourself.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FistOfTheNorthStar/TropesAToH
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FistOfTheNorthStar/TropesIToP
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FistOfTheNorthStar/TropesQToZ

At least give expamples and not some stupid trope links. I actually read Hokuto no Ken (twice), Saint Seiya and cannot share your obscure aspects. DE La croissant made a good point

This is because the battle shonens "copied" the formula, not the script. DB has influence of HNK, Saint Seiya too, but each one has distinct elements in its development. If the way of writing is too similar, with no differential, the reader will naturally complain. It's like Pokemon and Digimon. The base is the same, the execution is not.