Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2017] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[shoyoboyo]

It's really just not as easy as giving a female character male traits and sticking her in the spotlight.

Yeah, that's pretty much the problem with Emma. She's pretty much just a generic male shounen mc in a girl's body.

 

[Nakura]

Yeah, that's pretty much the problem with Emma. She's pretty much just a generic male shounen mc in a girl's body.

What about Emma do you feel is specifically a male trait, as opposed to a female's?

 

[Leoat12]

Right, but my question is does gender really come into play in what makes a good character good or a bad character bad in any aspect other than how they're designed/look? Does someone really say "Oh this character sucks because they're a girl/guy" or "This character sucks because I don't relate to them/they're not written well?"

Yes, it does. There are some actions that are good with boys, but not as good with girls. Let's take a battle for example, male and female characters fight very differently generally, guys rely on their brute force and to make the their movements strong and indefensible. Girls, on the other hand, doesn't normally rely on strength, they rely on skill more, grace would be the world. People will probably reject the idea right off the bat because I will use SAO as example, but I will take the risk: Kirito's attacks are much more blunt, strong, he uses a heavy sword to make the blow a powerful as possible, Asuna, on the other hand, rely on speed and precision. Can you say that Kiriko style is better than Asuna's because his is stronger in the power point of view? No, he himself admits that Asuna style would be hard to defeat even for him. Each one have their way to fight, but none of them are over the other.
Male and Female characters can be equally good, respecting the differences, they act differently, there is no way to make everything fit to both.

 

[tirakai]

I just want more prominent female characters who have their own stories and motivations that don't solely revolve around liking a guy. Asuna is a prime example of how not to write a female character, sure she's strong but past her introduction she pretty much exclusively exists to be MC's devoted girlfriend.

At the very least within jump you have to admit Noelle is done a lot better than Ochako when comparing Black Clover and MHA's main girls. Noelle liking Asta is a big part of her character of course but she does have her own major story arcs with her struggle to control her magic and her family conflicts, Ochako got a brief mention of her parents early on but since then she hasn't really had much development beyond liking Deku.

 

[shoyoboyo]

What about Emma do you feel is specifically a male trait, as opposed to a female's?

Her whole spiel about wanting to protect everyone is reminiscent of Natsu and Luffy's mind set.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

Yes, it does. There are some actions that are good with boys, but not as good with girls. Let's take a battle for example, male and female characters fight very differently generally, guys rely on their brute force and to make the their movements strong and indefensible. Girls, on the other hand, doesn't normally rely on strength, they rely on skill more, grace would be the world. People will probably reject the idea right off the bat because I will use SAO as example, but I will take the risk: Kirito's attacks are much more blunt, strong, he uses a heavy sword to make the blow a powerful as possible, Asuna, on the other hand, rely on speed and precision. Can you say that Kiriko style is better than Asuna's because his is stronger in the power point of view? No, he himself admits that Asuna style would be hard to defeat even for him. Each one have their way to fight, but none of them are over the other.
Male and Female characters can be equally good, respecting the differences, they act differently, there is no way to make everything fit to both.

But there are male characters who rely on intelligence and girls who use brute strength. I can't really comment on SAO since I haven't seen it, but a fighting style isn't really one that denotes one gender is better than another. Like I know this is a Shounen Jump thread, and this is a shounen sunday series that no one reads, but Saike for example has Ana who looks like a gothic lolita girl, but is more prone to solve problems with violence leaving Saike --who isn't physically strong to do the thinking. That just ascribes to their characters, more than making them more or less interesting. Yes it's nice that the usual shounen tropes are flipped but that doesn't inherently make them better characters, it's just a different execution of the story. You can have girls who are physically strong, and boys who are not, but that doesn't make them better or worse really.

Though it might just be me. I really don't care either way --I do want to see more female protagonists in shounen, but I couldn't qualify what would make them better other than just having a change from the usual. Admittedly my reason itself is pretty lacking, lol.

 

[Nakura]

Her whole spiel about wanting to protect everyone is reminiscent of Natsu and Luffy's mind set.

But why does that mean she's a typical male MC in a female's body? Why is the idea of wanting to protect everyone a problem if it's a female character?

 

[savethecat]

Her whole spiel about wanting to protect everyone is reminiscent of Natsu and Luffy's mind set.

I'd say that's a Shonen MC trait, but I don't think that's a trait specific to males

 

[shoyoboyo]

I'd say that's a Shonen MC trait, but I don't think that's a trait specific to males

Ah that makes sense actually. I guess I just expected her to act differently from other shounen mc's because she's a female.

 

[Mawara]

I'm sorry, but reading some posts regarding Emma and why she's not a good protagonist makes me feel uncomfortable.
I get, when people don't like having a protagonist who wants to help everyone, can get boring, but saying that's a bad thing for Emma, bc she feels like a boy then is not a good thing, guys. Should she NOT help people, because she is a girl?
To be honest, that feels like, as criticism of a typical shounen protagonist but used against her gender now.
I mean, I get it, if it's about shounen protagonist overall, but there were people who defended the tropes and clichès of shounen, because it's shounen, and if someone dislike it, then shouldnt read shounen. But NOW it's problem?
(not including ppl who didnt say that shounen mcs must be boys, but disliking this tropes)

Also, I disagree that Emma is just a genderbender Shounen MC. I would call it subtle, but she radiates a certain "Onee-chan" charm around her family and is very protective and motherly to the younger ones. Also Mother Isabelle wanted her as a Mother on the Human Plantages, which is only possible for other women. And then there is also Norman who had a crush on her.
I mean, yeah, these things are more "subtle" hints that she's a "female human", but that's also because she IS human.
There is a wide range of different male protagonists, who are either extremely manly or not. I dont see a problem in Emma as a female protagonist, because she's not wearing the most pinkish pink and doesnt talk only about boys *cough*Sakura*cough*.
I mean, if the debate is just about Emma as a shounen protagonist, who acts like many other shounen protagonists, then I would get it, but saying she's not a good female character, because she's not acting like a stereotypical female is... something different.

 

[Leoat12]

I just want more prominent female characters who have their own stories and motivations that don't solely revolve around liking a guy. Asuna is a prime example of how not to write a female character, sure she's strong but past her introduction she pretty much exclusively exists to be MC's devoted girlfriend.

At the very least within jump you have to admit Noelle is done a lot better than Ochako when comparing Black Clover and MHA's main girls. Noelle liking Asta is a big part of her character of course but she does have her own major story arcs with her struggle to control her magic and her family conflicts, Ochako got a brief mention of her parents early on but since then she hasn't really had much development beyond liking Deku.

Asuna has everything you said here about Noelle.
We are going in circles here. Uraraka behavior is not exclusive for her, EVERY CHARACTER IN MY HERO ACADEMIA ARE THERE FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DEVELOPING DEKU. EVERYBODY. BAKUGO IS THERE FOR THE SAKE OF DEKU DEVELOPEMNT, TODOROKI, ALL MALE CHARACTERS, ALL FEMALE CHARACTERS. Mirio got the spot light in the latest chapters, but guess what who appeared to save the day? DEKU.
99.999% of the protagonists in shounen are male characters, therefore 99% OF FEMALE CHARACTERS WILL be BELOW THE PROTAGONIST, and not only them, EVERY CHARACTER.

So can we end now? Female characters will be the huge majority of the time below the male protagonist, that's obvious.

 

[ShenGao]

Emma is a bad character because her character changes depending on what the plot demands. She is super intelligent, but then she acts dumb like in the current chapter with the prisoner. She acts like an innocent little girl, but then she looks and sounds like a cold blooded psycho who would kill Mama on the spot.
This has nothing to do with her gender. It's her character which fluctuates all the time as if she had multiple personalities.

 

[TM2]

That may have been the fault of the art. Though I'm not sure how deliberate that moment was.

While I don't mind Emma as a character and having multiple facets to a character is usually a welcome addition in character writing. I have to say that Emma in those moments weren't particularly well executed. I think a more gradual decline into developing that "cold-bloodedness" would have helped matters immensely.

 

[savethecat]

Emma is a bad character because her character changes depending on what the plot demands. She is super intelligent, but then she acts dumb like in the current chapter with the prisoner. She acts like an innocent little girl, but then she looks and sounds like a cold blooded psycho who would kill Mama on the spot.
This has nothing to do with her gender. It's her character which fluctuates all the time as if she had multiple personalities.

From the beginning its been stated that she's intelligent but extremely naive. I've never seen her come off as dumb, more so just childish or absent minded. But never dumb in the same sense as Luffy, Goku or Naruto.
And she acts cold and psycho when her siblings are threatened, which falls right in line with her trait that she wants to protect everyone

 

[TM2]

But in those cases she only LOOKS cold and psycho rather than actually acting psycho. Yes it has been established that she is naive but when she only looks like that it just seems like it was a way for the author to manipulate the perception that the situation is more dire that it actually is or in this case the author seems to be giving the illusion that Emma is becoming "cold-blooded" instead of actually making her cold blooded. This is a similar problem I had with the Ray incident. Even at this point I'm fairly sure Norman is still alive despite being more or less "killed off".

 

[justanotherone]

I'm sorry, but reading some posts regarding Emma and why she's not a good protagonist makes me feel uncomfortable.
Also, I disagree that Emma is just a genderbender Shounen MC. I would call it subtle, but she radiates a certain "Onee-chan" charm around her family and is very protective and motherly to the younger ones. Also Mother Isabelle wanted her as a Mother on the Human Plantages, which is only possible for other women. And then there is also Norman who had a crush on her.

Same. If you remember we talked about this in the past and I just don't get how people still feel like Emma would be the same if she was a boy. I mean at this point it's just plain wrong and not an "opinion" when you have those facts in the manga. Tbh I'm getting really tired and some posts make me pretty upset but I don't have the energy to reply, it would be useless, besides you already said everything I wanted to.
Personally I still think Emma is a good character and lol I'm a girl so it's bad if I appreciate the manga more because of her? I don't think so and I'll keep doing that.

 

[ChocoBar9]

At the very least within jump you have to admit Noelle is done a lot better than Ochako when comparing Black Clover and MHA's main girls. Noelle liking Asta is a big part of her character of course but she does have her own major story arcs with her struggle to control her magic and her family conflicts, Ochako got a brief mention of her parents early on but since then she hasn't really had much development beyond liking Deku.

No? Because by the end of the day she's not a terribly interesting character and the story doesn't do much with her but then again this is the same problem with the majority of the cast in BC since they're not given enough time to shine, its like people saying how they like Yuno's friendly rivalry with Asta which doesn't mean much of anything since Yuno barely has any screentime and is boring as hell, Anna from Shaman King was also a heroine who had things going for her other than loving Yoh its too bad she was a blatant Mary Sue and Takei wrote as his ideal waifu that leaked into another character (Tamao) instead of trying to make her a good character. I know I keep bringing up Kaoru but I feel she's a counter example to the notion that a female character being an anchor for the MC is bad especially if its handled well (also MHA has always given me Kenshin vibes more so than Naruto) sine she served to give Kenshin a will to live and he in term made her a better person as a result they both complete one another which is one of the driving themes of the manga, I wouldn't say Ochako is all about loving Deku since its something that just recently came to her mind she's still all about being a hero to support her family and her arc is all about improving herself alongside her own feelings towards Deku and a potential adversary with Toga at bay.

Asuna has everything you said here about Noelle.
We are going in circles here. Uraraka behavior is not exclusive for her, EVERY CHARACTER IN MY HERO ACADEMIA ARE THERE FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DEVELOPING DEKU. EVERYBODY. BAKUGO IS THERE FOR THE SAKE OF DEKU DEVELOPEMNT, TODOROKI, ALL MALE CHARACTERS, ALL FEMALE CHARACTERS.

No that's not the case at all each character has their own struggles to face by themselves that usually doesn't effect Deku at all, Momo's self-esteem issues, Aoyama's lack of self-worth, Kirishima's cowardice, Urakara lament of her own weakness all had nothing to do with Deku and even when he does play a role by the end of the day its still the character's decision to change for the better. The only character who exists for the betterment of Deku's character is All Might and he's the deuteragonist of the series with his own stakes in the plot.

Mirio got the spot light in the latest chapters, but guess what who appeared to save the day? DEKU.

Wow its almost like he's the main character or something

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2017 ---

Also, I disagree that Emma is just a genderbender Shounen MC. I would call it subtle, but she radiates a certain "Onee-chan" charm around her family and is very protective and motherly to the younger ones. Also Mother Isabelle wanted her as a Mother on the Human Plantages, which is only possible for other women. And then there is also Norman who had a crush on her.
I mean, yeah, these things are more "subtle" hints that she's a "female human", but that's also because she IS human.
There is a wide range of different male protagonists, who are either extremely manly or not. I dont see a problem in Emma as a female protagonist, because she's not wearing the most pinkish pink and doesnt talk only about boys *cough*Sakura*cough*.
I mean, if the debate is just about Emma as a shounen protagonist, who acts like many other shounen protagonists, then I would get it, but saying she's not a good female character, because she's not acting like a stereotypical female is... something different.

Yeah so subtle its barely even there. This is an argument I had here a ways back about how Emma's gender doesn't really mean much of anything since the same story can be told with a male MC and it rings even true now that they've left the plantation. Call it backlash for people making a big deal over her being a female protagonist in a Jump manga and a successful one at that, which is quite the rarity, when her being female has never been the main draw of this series or why its praised or that her gender has never been important in the actual story (except for one instance). If your female lead does not have traits to distinguish her feminity then why make her a girl to begin with?

 

[Scruffy8642]

Few things:
People talking about Ochako as if she's only there for Deku's development and loving him, but people do actually realize this is a very new thing? Ochako's feelings have hardly even been focused on apart from that one time where she semi-admitted it to the other Class A girls. Devaluing her entire character for something that has had very little to do with her actual development just because it's typical is a bit shallow...

On the talk of Kaoru and Kenshin, I do struggle to admit she was actually a good female character because she wasn't that much better than Sakura for most of the story... She just fussed over Kenshin is an obviously lovey-dovey way and just seemed to fill the role of 'token annoying female' a lot of shounens seem to have. She was one of the reasons I disliked early Kenshin so much. However her development in the final arc completely flipped that on its head and made her into one of the better shounen 'heroines', so credit where it's due I guess.

Emma IS a good female protagonist precisely because people feel like she could be replaced by a male/comes across as being male-like (which she doesn't, that's just how we perceive generic shounen MCs and associate it with males...). She isn't chained down by gender stereotypes. She may not be a good protagonist in general, but she is a good female one.

 

[shoyoboyo]

Emma IS a good female protagonist precisely because people feel like she could be replaced by a male/comes across as being male-like (which she doesn't, that's just how we perceive generic shounen MCs and associate it with males...). She isn't chained down by gender stereotypes. She may not be a good protagonist in general, but she is a good female one.

Wait, so are you saying that she's a good female protagonist because she's basically a genderbent male mc? That doesn't really sound right.

 

[xAsum0x]

[

EVERY CHARACTER IN MY HERO ACADEMIA ARE THERE FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DEVELOPING DEKU.

Are we reading the same series? Just because they're a rival doesn't mean their sole existence is to develop him. I honestly have no idea how you came to that conclusion, because like Chocobar said, literally the only characters that exist for that purpose is Gran Torino and All Might, who are literally his mentors...what with these lazy opinions?