Mag Talk Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk

[ttxdragon]

Ok, I just had a pretty long discussion about when Meister started to be rated.... Since there's the rumor that Meister started to be rated in Issue #8 and that somehow didn't sit well after thinking about it logically. I went and made a table to make my point, hoping to get some answers to my questions about the logic behind having Meister start to be rated in Issue #8.

Spoiler: The table

This starts from "a fresh year" ie. leaving out the previous years issues for the "to be rated" weeks.

Legend:
Issue = Issue Number
8Weeks = If the chapters are rated after 8 weeks they are drawing voting-results from this issue number
8Issues = If the chapters are rated after 8 issues they are drawing voting-results from this issue number

Red = No unique voting result from 8weeks prior available
Blue = Issue Number without voting-results being used anywhere

Issue  => 8weeks => 8Issues
---------------------------
# 1    =>        => 
# 2    =>        => 
# 3/4  =>        => 
# 5/6  =>        => 
# 7    =>        => 
# 8    => # 1    => 
# 9    => # 2    => 
#10    => # 3/4  => # 1
[color=red]#11    =>        => # 2[/color]
#12    => # 5/6  => # 3/4
[color=red]#13    =>        => # 5/6[/color]
#14    => # 7    => # 7
#15    => # 8    => # 8
#16    => # 9    => # 9
#17    => #10    => #10
#18    => #11    => #11
#19    => #12    => #12
#20    => #13    => #13
#21    => #14    => #14
#22/23 => #15    => #15
[color=blue]          #16[/color]
#24    => #17    => #16
#25    => #18    => #17
#26    => #19    => #18
#27    => #20    => #19
#28    => #21    => #20
#29    => #22/23 => #21
[color=red]#30    =>        => #22/23[/color]
#31    => #24    => #24
#32    => #25    => #25
#33    => #26    => #26
#34    => #27    => #27
#35    => #28    => #28
#36/37 => #29    => #29
[color=blue]          #30[/color]
#38    => #31    => #30
#39    => #32    => #31
#40    => #33    => #32
#41    => #34    => #33
#42    => #35    => #34
#43    => #36/37 => #35
[color=red]#44    =>        => #36/37[/color]
#45    => #38    => #38
#46    => #39    => #39
#47    => #40    => #40
#48    => #41    => #41
#49    => #42    => #42
#50    => #43    => #43
#51    => #44    => #44
#52    => #45    => #45
# 1    => #46    => #46
# 2    => #47    => #47
# 3/4  => #48    => #48
[color=blue]          #49[/color]
# 5/6  => #50    => #49
[color=blue]          #51[/color]
# 7    => #52    => #50
# 8    => # 1    => #51
# 9    => # 2    => #52
#10    => # 3-4  => # 1
[color=red]#11    =>        => # 2[/color]
#12    => # 5-6  => # 3-4
[color=red]#13    =>        => # 5-6[/color]
#14    => # 7    => # 7

If ratings were always drawn from 8 weeks prior, the following would occur:

- Issue #11, #13, #30 and #40 would have completely editor-set TOC or use the same TOC as the week before and

- Issue #16, #30, #49 and #51 would never have the votes of them used in any TOC

So, my question is:
Why would Shueisha basically waste 4 issues worth of votings and let their editors decide the complete TOC for 4 issues per year?
Wouldn't it make more sense to have the voting of 8 issues prior counted?

And why would they even have the results so much earlier? I'd assume the people who go over the postcards (at least those not readable by computer) would have weeks off too, just like the mangaka do have breaks.


Either my logic is flawed somewhere or Shueisha is doing something very illogical, imho.

 

[[Cross]]

I hear that D.Gray-Man will be back in April, or something to that extent, most likely the Spring season since Hoshino was reported saying (OneManga News) So that's another cut we should be expecting.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

it's 8 weeks prior there's no real hole in the logic, it's not like all the series reset for those first issues of the new year.

and don't trust onemanga news there's no definite info about hoshino's absence, and certainly no info on her return

 

[Muddy]

Yeah, such a sad story for Asklepios but at least it had a bit of a chance...and didn't do anything with it.

Oh, it did. Except that it fulfilled its potential when it already was at the bottom of the ToC, which turned out useless, practically speaking - but at least provided me with one of the best arcs I've ever read in a shounen. Against all odds, the manga turned out fantastic.

In my opinion, of course; I'm sure others will disagree. I know at least Noodles is on my side, though! And that's not too bad. Anyway, I'll definitely be buying the tankoubon for this one; Asklepios isn't the kind of series I'd want missing from my WSJ shelf.

 

[ttxdragon]

Noodles:
I know they don't reset, I just started it from blank to not start with random seeming numbers and to illustrate it better. I could repeat the years infinitely (as I hinted at the end of the table by going up to Issue #14) with the same double issues etc and it would get the same holes as before.

Those holes are real if it's really 8 "weeks" and not "issues".

 

[Imitorar]

Yeah, I agree with Muddy. Asklepios did an amazing job of skipping to what would have been the final arc of a series at least 10 volumes long if it had actually survived. I think that Asklepios wasn't given enough of a chance. As Buzz's attempt to get recognized by the Church showed, the manga could have been amazingly thrilling. If it had been allowed to live and develop naturally, that is. People were whining around chapter 5 that "Buzz needs to be more like he was in the oneshot" without actually thinking that maybe he would DEVELOP into the way he was in the oneshot, and that expecting him to have accepted his role as the Asklepios by chapter 5 was just plain stupid. But Jump readers are notoriously impatient, and they've been known to cancel what could have been a very good series before. The untimely cancellation of Double Arts still hurts, and I consider Asklepios' early cancelletion just as much of a loss, if not more so.

 

[Rejuvenation]

#11 (09/02) :
Mago
Neuro
Meister
Asklepios (End)
Jaguar

#12 (16/02) :
One Piece (Couv & Pc)
Kuroko (Pc)
You Matsuyuki / One Shot

To Love Ru and Psyren not being in this list means I am happy.

And Asklepios finally dies. *hopes the series that takes its place appeals to me more*

 

[Muddy]

But Jump readers are notoriously impatient, and they've been known to cancel what could have been a very good series before. The untimely cancellation of Double Arts still hurts, and I consider Asklepios' early cancelletion just as much of a loss, if not more so.

Yeah, it really sucks. Both series were uncharacteristically (for Jump) leisurely, which I loved. My user-namesake (the series Muddy) was the same way - it had a meandering, organic approach to its story and didn't rush anything or make anything clear immediately, and got axed for it. It's really a shame that series like these aren't given their chance. Imitorar's descriptions of Asklepios are exactly in line with my own (and with your appreciation of Double Arts, sir, it looks like we have much in common).

I'm also inclined to agree that Asklepios is a heavier loss than DA, because while Komi Naoshi will surely be back with something soon, this really was probably Uchimizu's last chance, and Jump screwed him over. 'tis a damn shame. I'm glad that there are people in this community, though, who also appreciated what Asklepios was and realized what it could have been.

 

[Sexy Randal 105]

Ehh...the whole point to story telling is that you should make the story compelling. He obviously couldn't do that. Oh well. I am excited to see what new series come.

 

[ZoddGuts]

#11 (09/02) :
Mago
Neuro
Meister
Asklepios (End)
Jaguar

#12 (16/02) :
One Piece (Couv & Pc)
Kuroko (Pc)
You Matsuyuki / One Shot

Like I thought Meister bombed and won't recover like Bari Haken/Askelepios weren't able to. Not a big loss since I consider Kuroko and Bokkesan to be better series. To-love isn't in the bottom rankings goes to show the power of loli when loli Celine showed up 8 weeks ago.

 

[Kaiten]

Buzz and what's her name roll up into a town, the church follows closely, someone's sick, Buzz isn't confident but attempts surgery anyways, Buzz saves their life while narrowly avoiding capture. Repeating the same chapter ten times isn't a slow start, it's poor story telling. Plenty of series start slowly, plenty of authors like taking time to establish their story. D. Gray Man, One Piece, Full Metal Alchemist; all took at least three volumes to establish their basic plot. But while they developed slowly all were compelling, varied reads. Asklepios was just repetitive, seemingly turning off a lot of readers in the process. Myself included.

 

[Imitorar]

All of that happened within the first 8 chapters. Would you like to judge all of One Piece by the Morgan arc? Caligula showed up at the end of chapter 6, and once you knew that he was responsible for the death of Buzz's father, you already knew that he was going to become a recurring enemy and push Buzz forward. And then there was Pare's VERY well done death, which also resulted in character and plot development. And could have led to development in a direction other then the end of the story, but like I said, people didn't give it a chance. You're only proving the point, since your complaints are all about the first volume of the series. But that's how manga in a weekly magazine works, it's hard to look at the big picture. Asklepios wasn't able to find an audience, which is sad, because I think that there was a great story that circumstances will not allow to be told.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

the difference was that one pieces first 8 chapters weren't repetitive, they were compelling and well paced... series don't get that small pleasure anymore.

and goddamn do i hate the japanese readers right now... meister being my favourite current series

 

[StrangerAtaru]

I know I really don't read too many of the newer series, but the key is to make it compelling and grow while keeping people interested long enough to get to the exciting stuff. Whenever I make comments, I generally don't know of the series, so I wouldn't realize that something like Asklepios did a good job on what would have been a series finale arc...many years too early. The evolution of a manga from a promising newbie to a potential hit requires both showing natural evolution and things that let the readers stay interested long enough before hitting the big stuff.

(trust me, one of the few newer series I followed and mourned was Chagecha, which did an incredible job in setting up the world and pretty much died with an "opening arc" but did enough that Sawai essentially allowed for his world to be revealed without revealing too much...even if there probably were a couple rushed concepts)

 

[Kaiten]

the difference was that one pieces first 8 chapters weren't repetitive, they were compelling and well paced... series don't get that small pleasure anymore.

and goddamn do i hate the japanese readers right now... meister being my favourite current series

Toriko established itself quickly despite the plot moving at a slower pace. It goes to show that an engaging series will find it's audience without rushing through the plot in the first ten chapters. Psyren too, there are still a lot of plot points from volume one just now being revealed, and it's lasted over a year. Asklepios reminded me of Le Visiteur; a series with an interesting plot but a mangaka unsure of what to do with it until it was to late.

Jump readers really don't seem interested in sports anymore. It's sad but it seems Meister is the latest to fall victim to this change in taste.

 

[Galactic Tomahawk]

Yeah, really.

Asklepios had all sorts of potential in the first chapter and the oneshot, but it never really used it in favor of the shoddy surgery of the day formula until it was waaaaaaay too late. If the latter half the manga had just happened right off the bat (turn Pare's death in to a shocking swerve almost immediately after his introduction and go from there) I think it could've gone a lot better.

 

[Akainu]

imo exactly that is was the problem. to appeal to the readers it would have to be like what you described, but then it wouldn't fit what it should have been: a manga about a guy doing surgeries - that for me was what I was missing most in the latter half of Asklepios, especially the medical stuff, but I think the average japanese wsj readers aren't interested in such.

 

[The Adamant Dragon]

Hmmm, This is kinda random but I've been wondering: Did One piece ever lost his Place as #1 in Jump at some point, even once since Acquiring that position? (Only In Japan ofcourse)

The only ones I see beating Oda way back and in present are: Yu-Gi-Yo and Naruto.

Because I've been Finding O-P interesting only lately and before I was often asking myself why it was so popular in japan. (The begining wasn't really interesting imho).

 

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

Hmmm, This is kinda random but I've been wondering: Did One piece ever lost his Place as #1 in Jump at some point, even once since Acquiring that position? (Only In Japan ofcourse)

The only ones I see beating Oda way back and in present are: Yu-Gi-Yo and Naruto.

Because I've been Finding O-P interesting only lately and before I was often asking myself why it was so popular in japan. (The begining wasn't really interesting imho).

Yeah same here, OP didn't interest me at the start but it was no.1 for a reason so I decided to keep watching and reading it.

 

[Koen]

Well I kinda thirded to what TDA and adamant say... One piece's start wasn't really great to me too. I had given up on it too untill someone adviced me to have some patience till they entered the grand line. Yeah the guy was right and op was and is still amazing

then again I have to admit: fater rereading the 5 dutch volumes that have been released over here, I have to admit the beginning isn't so bad. I even like op's beginning now