Round of 16 Zeref vs Invel

[Axiomus]

He would have to create flames both as powerful and and hot as Natsu's partial END's flames, a feat that he hasn't shown. Invel didn't even attempt ice lock on Gray again and I don't think that has much to do with Gray's pof power. Based on the context of his uses of ice lock, I think it works best as a sneak attack but he wouldn't need to catch Zeref off guard if he can freeze him for a moment long enough to ice lock him

No he wouldn't. All Zeref needs is enough power in his flames to match the ones Natsu has here to break Invel's ice.

Spoiler: This is enough to break Invel's ice

If Ice Lock would have worked against Gray, then Invel should have used it instead of taking like 8 hits from Gray throughout the entire course of their battle. How can you be certain that Invel will get the drop on Zeref? Invel doesn't have a great track record defending against attacks from Gray. Zero longsword hit him twice, and this was before POF. After Gray had POF, Invel simply could not keep up. Gray's landed like 3 hits before Invel tried to use divine railment, and 4 more times after. Zeref can stun people with a look, without even moving, and he could do it to DF Natsu. What's to say Zeref won't just stun Invel with a glare, and then blast a hole through him?

Spoiler: Zeref can stun with a look

 

[Tirl]

If Ice Lock would have worked against Gray, then Invel should have used it instead of taking like 8 hits from Gray

Zeref can jump into guild in the beginning, stole FH, kill everyone by his death magic and use Neo Eclipse in few second after start the war. And he didn't. So he can't?

 

[Nemispelled]

Zeref can stun people with a look, without even moving, and he could do it to DF Natsu. What's to say Zeref won't just stun Invel with a glare, and then blast a hole through him?

Spoiler: Zeref can stun with a look

To be honest, that looks more like a push-back type of attack rather than an actual stun.

Invel, on the other hand, has stuns that are permanent. One touch of his divine ice and his opponent is frozen for good.

Even insta-freeze is more of a stun than Zeref's glare.


And sure, Natsu broke out of Invel's insta-freeze with basic flames.

But it took time for that to happen. Without Gray there, Invel had free shots.

Even Gray would have been frozen if he didn't have high tolerance to ice and the cold. And in this case, Zeref doesn't have any of that.

So if he were to come into contact with any amount of divine ice, he'd be as good as done.

 

[Axiomus]

To be honest, that looks more like a push-back type of attack rather than an actual stun.

Invel, on the other hand, has stuns that are permanent. One touch of his divine ice and his opponent is frozen for good.

Even insta-freeze is more of a stun than Zeref's glare.

And sure, Natsu broke out of Invel's insta-freeze with basic flames.

But it took time for that to happen. Without Gray there, Invel had free shots.

Even Gray would have been frozen if he didn't have high tolerance to ice and the cold. And in this case, Zeref doesn't have any of that.

So if he were to come into contact with any amount of divine ice, he'd be as good as done.

It would be no different than Gray punching Invel in the face. Since Invel couldn't defend against Gray's punches, what makes you think he can defend against Zeref's blasts?

Gray broke out of Invel's ice with brute strength, and like I said he has the ability to imitate Invel's ice with his ice make. If he could have simply tagged Zeref with the divine ice to freeze him, then he needn't have resorted to iced shell. I see absolutely no reason to take Invel at his word to the exception of everything else. There's no more reason to believe Invel's statement that he can freeze anyone with no exception than there is reason to believe Irene's statement that no human can possibly slice her meteor.

 

[M3J]

eh changing my vote again for Invel.

If that's so, then I'm changing it back to Zeref.

SIKE

It's already been Zeref

 

[Valhalla]

Sure, I understand some people want to make fun of Natsu. But I'm not here to do that. (Nor could I care any less about that)

I'm here to strictly compare Zeref and Invel.

And personally, I don't see any reason why Invel should not proceed over Zeref, according to Mashima's writing.


I assumed everybody was going by feats and performances, but I found it hard to believe that some people would start ignoring critical areas of the manga just to say that Zeref wins.

Invel wins in my honest opinion and by my honest analysis.

That's cool. You have valid points there.
I think that Zeref (and many others, even Acnologia, holy shit) was a true victim of Mashima's bad writing. The sad thing is that the main reason why Zeref doesn't have many feats and why people are including Natsu in this debate is beacause Zeref only fought Natsu and Natsu alone, in this whole arc. Mashima basically shut down Zeref for the reamainder of the arc and than pinned him against his favorite pink haired freak who cant be even compared to anyone anymore (In regards to Natsu I'm sounding more and more like my countryman Jean Gray lol). This is basically why I think Zeref lacks feats. If Mashima made Zeref battle other people, maybe he would show more feats, i dont know, and maybe we would have more backgound around his abilities, like why is he called the strongest black wizard in history, why is he so hyped and stuff like this.
So in the end we are left with only small feats, huge assumptions and huge hype, and thats really sad for any Zeref fan.

 

[Nemispelled]

It would be no different than Gray punching Invel in the face. Since Invel couldn't defend against Gray's punches, what makes you think he can defend against Zeref's blasts?

Gray broke out of Invel's ice with brute strength, and like I said he has the ability to imitate Invel's ice with his ice make. If he could have simply tagged Zeref with the divine ice to freeze him, then he needn't have resorted to iced shell. I see absolutely no reason to take Invel at his word to the exception of everything else. There's no more reason to believe Invel's statement that he can freeze anyone with no exception than there is reason to believe Irene's statement that no human can possibly slice her meteor.

Zeref's blasts are overrated. It never stopped somebody like Natsu before.

He killed Larcade with it, but Larcade was already beaten and didn't even want to retaliate because he believed that Zeref was his actual father.


Also, Gray would have eventually been frozen by Divine Ice if it weren't for his ice conversion capabilities.

Zeref doesn't have that, so he's finished if he is struck by any amount of Divine Ice. (And he also doesn't have decent feats to make it believable that he could counter it)

Gray practically resisted being frozen throughout their entire battle because he is a trained Ice Mage who has been fighting that way his whole life.

Zeref has no special tolerance or capability to counter super-freezing properties. He cannot be compared to Gray, especially not after last chapter.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2017, Original Post Date: May 22, 2017 ---

That's cool. You have valid points there.
I think that Zeref (and many others, even Acnologia, holy shit) was a true victim of Mashima's bad writing. The sad thing is that the main reason why Zeref doesn't have many feats and why people are including Natsu in this debate is beacause Zeref only fought Natsu and Natsu alone, in this whole arc. Mashima basically shut down Zeref for the reamainder of the arc and than pinned him against his favorite pink haired freak who cant be even compared to anyone anymore (In regards to Natsu I'm sounding more and more like my countryman Jean Gray lol). This is basically why I think Zeref lacks feats. If Mashima made Zeref battle other people, maybe he would show more feats, i dont know, and maybe we would have more backgound about his abilities, like why is he called the strongest black wizard in history, why is he so hyped and stuff like this.
So in the end we are left with only small feats, huge assumptions and huge hype, and thats really sad for any Zeref fan.

Yeah, and I sympathize with Zeref fans, but that doesn't mean I give Zeref the Character a pass here.

I didn't like how Gray acted this arc either, but I still used his performances the way it was shown. Characters were ruined left and right, but this tournament is supposed to do a good job reflecting Mashima's writing.


Zeref only wanted to fight Natsu throughout this entire manga.

That's why that is his only feat. He had plenty of chances to fight other people, but instead, he got what he wanted... a fight with only Natsu.

Zeref's feats have never been impressive. He picked on a beaten and bawling Larcade and was almost frozen by Gray

He stood behind his Spriggan the whole time, so I can't help that he has no feats.

The fact is that his performance was sub-par to his own Spriggans, so that's the only evidence I'm going by.

 

[Axiomus]

Zeref's blasts are overrated. It never stopped somebody like Natsu before.

He killed Larcade with it, but Larcade was already beaten and didn't even want to retaliate because he believed that Zeref was his actual father.


Also, Gray would have eventually been frozen by Divine Ice if it weren't for his ice conversion capabilities.

Zeref doesn't have that, so he's finished if he is struck by any amount of Divine Ice. (And he also doesn't have decent feats to make it believable that he could counter it)

Gray practically resisted being frozen throughout their entire battle because he is a trained Ice Mage who has been fighting that way his whole life.

Zeref has no special tolerance or capability to counter super-freezing properties. He cannot be compared to Gray, especially not after last chapter.

Zeref's black magic trapped Natsu for pretty much just as long as Invel's ice did (around 1 chapter).Plus it did damage. Plus Natsu had to resort to using Dragon Force to burn it away. Zeref's blasts can put a hole through Larcade. Even if you say Larcade was already beaten, that shouldn't change the toughness of his body. Invel's durability was never stated to be exceptional in the first place. Even if it doesn't blast a hole through him, it would most likely heavily injure him.

I'm not sure what you mean by ice conversion capabilities. Gray can imitate Invel's ice with ice make, but there was never anything stated about him converting Invel's ice. As far as I'm concerned, Gray simply broke through Invel's ice with brute strength.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2017, Original Post Date: May 22, 2017 ---

That's cool. You have valid points there.
I think that Zeref (and many others, even Acnologia, holy shit) was a true victim of Mashima's bad writing. The sad thing is that the main reason why Zeref doesn't have many feats and why people are including Natsu in this debate is beacause Zeref only fought Natsu and Natsu alone, in this whole arc. Mashima basically shut down Zeref for the reamainder of the arc and than pinned him against his favorite pink haired freak who cant be even compared to anyone anymore (In regards to Natsu I'm sounding more and more like my countryman Jean Gray lol). This is basically why I think Zeref lacks feats. If Mashima made Zeref battle other people, maybe he would show more feats, i dont know, and maybe we would have more backgound around his abilities, like why is he called the strongest black wizard in history, why is he so hyped and stuff like this.
So in the end we are left with only small feats, huge assumptions and huge hype, and thats really sad for any Zeref fan.

Yeah, but even if you make the argument that Zeref only fought Natsu...Invel only really fought Gray in this arc as well. And Invel did worse against Gray than Zeref did against Natsu. Natsu pushed himself to the limit like 3 times fighting Zeref. Invel was Gray's stepping stone before fighting END.

 

[Nemispelled]

Zeref's black magic trapped Natsu for pretty much just as long as Invel's ice did (around 1 chapter).Plus it did damage. Plus Natsu had to resort to using Dragon Force to burn it away. Zeref's blasts can put a hole through Larcade, which should be scaleable to Invel.

Again, Gray brute forced Invel. I'm not sure what you mean by ice conversion capabilities. Gray can imitate Invel's ice with ice make, but there was never anything stated about how he converted Invel's ice or anything. Zeref taught the founding members of Fairy Tail their magic. He taught Law to Mavis. He can tank attacks from Igneel's power,. He can survive attacks that burned away at Natsu's arm.

I would argue that insta-freeze is quicker than Zeref' black magic. Especially since Zeref's black magic is a lot easier to dodge than air freezing around a person's body.

Gray may have brute forced Invel's regular body, but not when he activated Raiment Armor.

Gray actually came close to being frozen by Divine Ice, but his capability to convert ice through his body was what saved him from being ultimately frozen solid.

Zeref is a scholar in magic, but that doesn't equate to his experience in combat. He tanked Igneel's power because of his immortality (high durability)... he doesn't have that in this tournament.

Without his immortality (aka high durability), half of his feats are disregarded here.

 

[Valhalla]

Zeref's black magic trapped Natsu for pretty much just as long as Invel's ice did (around 1 chapter).Plus it did damage. Plus Natsu had to resort to using Dragon Force to burn it away. Zeref's blasts can put a hole through Larcade. Even if you say Larcade was already beaten, that shouldn't change the toughness of his body. Invel's durability was never stated to be exceptional in the first place. Even if it doesn't blast a hole through him, it would most likely heavily injure him.

I'm not sure what you mean by ice conversion capabilities. Gray can imitate Invel's ice with ice make, but there was never anything stated about him converting Invel's ice. As far as I'm concerned, Gray simply broke through Invel's ice with brute strength.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2017, Original Post Date: May 22, 2017 ---

Yeah, but even if you make the argument that Zeref only fought Natsu...Invel only really fought Gray in this arc as well. And Invel did worse against Gray than Zeref did against Natsu. Natsu pushed himself to the limit like 3 times fighting Zeref. Invel was Gray's stepping stone before fighting END.

Also valid points and my main reason why I voted for Zeref.

 

[Axiomus]

I would argue that insta-freeze is quicker than Zeref' black magic. Especially since Zeref's black magic is a lot easier to dodge than the air freezing around the body.

Gray may have brute forced Invel's regular body, but not when he activated Raiment Armor.

Gray actually came close to being frozen by Divine Ice, but his capability to convert ice through his body was what saved him from being ultimately frozen solid.

Zeref is a scholar in magic, but that doesn't equate to his experience in combat. He tanked Igneel's power because of his immortality (high durability)... he doesn't have that in this tournament.

Without his immortality (aka high durability), half of his feats are disregarded here.

Why would instant freeze be quicker than Zeref's black magic? Both can be cast with a simple wave of the hand. This should just be a matter of reaction time. Zeref can react blow for blow against Natsu, who is on Gray's level. Invel was getting over and over again by base Gray's non-magical punches. Zeref can tag Igneel-powered Natsu mid-way through Natsu's attacks. Once Gray started wailing on Invel, there wasn't a single time where Invel actually managed to get a hit in.

Where was it stated that Gray's ability to convert ice was what saved him? All that was said was that Gray imitated the ice in the divine railment with ice-make. He broke the divine railment with a punch.

Spoiler

Zeref is still immortal. He simply can't regenerate his wounds. Any attack that he can survive in canon is still valid.

 

[Nemispelled]

Why? Both can be cast with a simple wave of the hand.

Where was it stated that Gray's ability to convert ice was what saved him? All that was said was that Gray imitated the ice in the divine railment with ice-make.

Spoiler

Zeref is still immortal. He simply can't regenerate his wounds. Any attack that he can survive in canon is still valid.

The result is still the same. Gray survived Invel's Divine Ice because he is an experienced Ice Mage.

Zeref cannot imitate any kind of ice and doesn't even have Ice-Make to do that. He couldn't even resist being frozen by Gray's Lost Ice Shell, so he is defenseless against Divine Ice.


Zeref can be beaten by being immobilized. So his immortality is pointless against Invel because his "high durability" can practically be ignored.

If it's an attack that is based off of sheer power, then his immortality might be of little advantage to him.

But in this case, Invel's divine ice causes his opponents to instantly freeze for good.

That completely nullifies any consideration of Zeref being beaten the same way that Natsu defeated him.

Invel wins because of a different reason. He doesn't necessarily need to beat Zeref into total exhaustion.

 

[Axiomus]

The result is still the same. Gray survived Invel's Divine Ice because he is an experience Ice Mage.

Zeref cannot imitate any kind of ice and doesn't even have Ice-Make to do that. He couldn't even resist being frozen by Gray's Lost Ice Shell, so he is defenseless against Divine Ice.


Zeref can be beaten by being immobilized. So his immortality is pointless against Invel because his "high durability" can practically be ignored.

If it's an attack that is based off of sheer power, then his immortality might be of little advantage to him.

But in this case, Invel's divine ice causes his opponents to instantly freeze for good.

That completely nullifies any consideration of Zeref being beaten the same way that Natsu defeated him.

Invel wins because of a difference reason. He doesn't necessarily need to beat Zeref into total exhaustion.

Gray survived Invel's divine ice because he brute forced the ice. Nothing was mentioned about Gray's converting ice. Anyone with similar levels of brute force should do the same. Gray wasn't instantly frozen by the divine railment. Gray imitated the ice from the divine railment, and when it hit Invel... Invel wasn't instantly frozen. Honestly, I don't know why we're putting so much faith on Invel's self-hype. Invel also claimed that ice lock wasn't coming off until one of them died, and that they couldn't possibly disobey their orders to kill each other. Well, Gray and Juvia disobeyed their orders to kill each other, and neither of them died.

Can Invel immobilize Zeref before Zeref makes his move though? Like I said, all it would take is a stare for Zeref to tag Invel and then follow up with the same blast he used against Larcade. Zeref can trade blow for blow with Natsu, who in turn can trade blow for blow with Gray. Invel cannot. Gray basically mauled him when it came to CQC.

 

[Nemispelled]

Gray survived Invel's divine ice because he brute forced the ice. Nothing was mentioned about Gray's converting ice. Anyone with similar levels of brute force should do the same. Gray wasn't instantly frozen by the divine railment. Gray imitated the ice from the divine railment, and when it hit Invel... Invel wasn't instantly frozen. Honestly, I don't know why we're putting so much faith on Invel's self-hype. Invel also claimed that ice lock wasn't coming off until one of them died, and that they couldn't possibly disobey their orders to kill each other. Well, Gray and Juvia disobeyed their orders to kill each other, and neither of them died.

Can Invel immobilize Zeref before Zeref makes his move though? Like I said, all it would take is a stare for Zeref to tag Invel and then follow up with the same blast he used against Larcade. Zeref can trade blow for blow with Natsu, who in turn can trade blow for blow with Gray. Invel cannot. Gray basically mauled him when it came to CQC.

Gray still needed Ice-Make or some type of Ice Magic to avoid being frozen though. Brute force alone didn't save Gray.

Ice Lock was self-hyped by Invel, that I agree with and kind of expected. But I don't doubt his divine ice. Gray admitted to shivering from Invel's cold atmosphere and even resorted to countering Raiment with his own ice spell.

I don't see anything that would discredit Invel's Divine Ice since that is practically his strongest feat. It's probably what made him a Spriggan to begin with.


Zeref's stare would only push Invel back, but if Zeref tried to follow it up with a blast, Invel could still easily dodge it.

Natsu was frozen before Invel even made his appearance. So I have no doubt that freezing the air around a person is somewhat quicker.

Zeref could potentially beat Invel if it came down to CQC or an exchange of magic blasts.

But if Invel is bloodlusted with the intention to win, it's a lot easier if he just insta-freezes Zeref or tags him with his Divine Ice from Raiment.

 

[Tirl]

Gray survived Invel's divine ice because he brute forced the ice

Did you see manga? Gray is ice make mage. He just consumed divine ice and make it unaffected to him like he did in sun village . It is all. After this he push Invel back by DeS punches. Lyon or Ur can make the same thing. But not Zeref.

Can Invel immobilize Zeref before Zeref makes his move though?

How long cast Zeref's spells? Elfman and Ever easily run away from his death wave. Natsu easily burn his ball. While Invel doesn't need even hand's swipe to instantly freeze anything he want and use ice lock also instantly.

 

[Axiomus]

Gray still needed Ice-Make or some type of Ice Magic to avoid being frozen though. Brute force alone didn't save Gray.

Ice Lock was self-hyped by Invel, that I agree with and kind of expected. But I don't doubt his divine ice. Gray admitted to shivering from Invel's cold atmosphere and even resorted to countering Raiment with his own ice spell.

I don't see anything that would discredit Invel's Divine Ice since that is practically his strongest feat. It's probably what made him a Spriggan to begin with.


Zeref's stare would only push Invel back, but if Zeref tried to follow it up with a blast, Invel could still easily dodge it.

Natsu was frozen before Invel even made his appearance. So I have no doubt that freezing the air around a person is somewhat quicker.

Zeref could potentially beat Invel if it came down to CQC or an exchange of magic blasts.

But if Invel is bloodlusted with the intention to win, it's a lot easier if he just insta-freezes Zeref or tags him with his Divine Ice from Raiment.

Natsu escaped Invel's ice with fire magic, and Zeref has his black flames which should be at least as strong as the flames Natsu used even without FH. I find Invel's ice to be overrated. Gray literally just broke the divine railment with a punch. Gray then copied the ice, and created gauntlets. His gauntlets ended up smashed Invel's armour, so Gray's ice should be stronger. Invel might be a spriggan, but he was never stated to be exceptional among the Spriggans.

Natsu had no idea where Invel was coming from, or who Invel was at that point. It would be a different story if Natsu and Invel were facing off, and they had to make their move. If Zeref and Invel faces off, it would be more similar to the situation where Gray faced off with Invel. In that both knew they were about to fight. I see no reason why Zeref can't tag Invel with the same ease that Gray punched him.

Did you see manga? Gray is ice make mage. He just consumed divine ice and make it unaffected to him like he did in sun village . It is all. After this he push Invel back by DeS punches. Lyon or Ur can make the same thing. But not Zeref.

How long cast Zeref's spells? Elfman and Ever easily run away from his death wave. Natsu easily burn his ball. While Invel doesn't need even hand's swipe to instantly freeze anything he want and use ice lock also instantly.

Spoiler: Imitate, not consume

Not only have I read the manga, but I am the only one who bothered posting it. The manga never said Gray never consumed the divine ice. Nor did it say that Gray redirected Invel's ice or reshaped it. It said that Gray imitated the ice with his ice-make. Gray used that ice to make gauntlets, and he used those gauntlets to beat up Invel. Honestly, all that tells me is that the ice in Invel's armour wasn't so special to the point that Gray didn't know how to copy it.

Fast enough to tag Igneel-powered Natsu mid rampage. Zeref's death wave wasn't really an attack. That was just ankhseram's curse randomly firing off. Plus, it's been said Zeref gets stronger the less he cares about life. Tenrou Zeref =/= Current Zeref.

 

[Unnamed Namesake]

Again, this isn't Natsu vs. Zeref...

This is Invel vs. Zeref. This is exactly what I mean when I said "people are putting too much emphasis on Natsu vs. Zeref."

I don't know why people keep comparing the 2 battles.

Invel vs. Zeref has no "burning hax". All it has is Invel's hax.

And that is exactly what I am going to go by.


Comparing Gray vs. Invel or Natsu vs. Zeref is absolutely pointless.

Gray is an ice mage. Zeref is not. Whatever feats Gray accomplished to avoid getting frozen by Invel cannot be replicated exactly the same by Zeref.

Zeref isn't anywhere near the same caliber of an ice mage as Gray is.

And Natsu vs. Zeref is completely irrelevant. Natsu won because he had more power.

In this battle, Invel isn't winning because of his power. He's winning because of his hax and Zeref's lacking feats.

I disagree. Looking at people's previous fights helps draw a conclusion. From knowledge Natsu's previous fights I can tell you his moveset, his fighting style, how his battles progress, his magical power, etc. I can tell you a number of things. MMA fighters do this all the time to try and capitalize on an advantage they have over their opponents. It takes this kind of knowledge of a character to make an educated guess on how they'd fair when pit with another character.

Laxus isn't good against well defended opponents like Jura who was able to play pinball with him. Jellal is a glass cannon. August can't copy holder magic. Wall is immune to lightning. Gray is nearly immune to ice. These are important factors when pitting two people against each other because they can be a deciding factor, and the more fights a character has, the bigger sample size we have to reference.

 

[LaGOAT]

^Dude, did you really join MH just to write an essay on why Invel is stronger than Zeref??? Holy crap Hiro, what have you done to your fans?

bro i just realized what u wrote on this post i somehow missed this loooool im in tears

Igneel-powered Natsu could have potentially killed Zeref. Base Natsu just knocked him down. Erza had a bunch of disadvantages against Ajeel, but dealing enough damage to take him out wasn't one of them. With POF, she is definitely above your average Spriggan. Also, the difference between Erza's scenario against Ajeel and Natsu's scenario against Invel is obviously the condition they were in. Gray had POF against Invel. Gray had POF and was demonized against END Natsu. END Natsu wasn't in the same league as DF Natsu, and POF Natsu is above DF.

Base Natsu with POF
FH Zeref
DF Natsu/Igneel-powered Natsu
Zeref/August/Irene
END Natsu/Demonized Gray with POF
Base Natsu/Base Gray with POF
Invel/Demonized Gray
Base Gray

cool he had the power to kill zeref. lol ok?? he tanked his attacks and till able to fight natsu. base natsu causal punch FH zeref and he wasnt able to move. that the same thing as killing him too. just because he had the power to kill natsu doesnt make it any different from getting reviving an L from a causal punch. a lost is a lost dead or alive. and Fh zeref>base zeref. erza only disadvantage was when she could use her equip properly once she wasnt restricted she till got shitted on. also i can debate that POF kicked in when natsu melt the ice because lucy and juvia broke out with POF and that was the same time gray brought up the POF speech. also invel never use ice lock on POF gray so u cant say wouldnt work him because invel was hit by PIS. also ice lock is a sneak type of type not a direct combat attack.

come on if u want to use an analogy stick with it dont back off/switch it up if ur including POF feats then it should be with all characters not just one character. zeref hasnt shown a decent feat that make him a top tier is the FT verse. he was false hype. and im speaking facts also people also forgot that zeref has some restriction in this tournament. but yet u guys continue to believe that zeref will come on top. base natsu>>>>>>ig natsu and ingeel and ancologia. invel win this battle but i know he losing this round just cause people are beleive in zeref's hype

--- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2017, Original Post Date: May 23, 2017 ---

That's cool. You have valid points there.
I think that Zeref (and many others, even Acnologia, holy shit) was a true victim of Mashima's bad writing. The sad thing is that the main reason why Zeref doesn't have many feats and why people are including Natsu in this debate is beacause Zeref only fought Natsu and Natsu alone, in this whole arc. Mashima basically shut down Zeref for the reamainder of the arc and than pinned him against his favorite pink haired freak who cant be even compared to anyone anymore (In regards to Natsu I'm sounding more and more like my countryman Jean Gray lol). This is basically why I think Zeref lacks feats. If Mashima made Zeref battle other people, maybe he would show more feats, i dont know, and maybe we would have more backgound around his abilities, like why is he called the strongest black wizard in history, why is he so hyped and stuff like this.
So in the end we are left with only small feats, huge assumptions and huge hype, and thats really sad for any Zeref fan.

exactly bro u hit it right on point. that the problem zeref lacks feats and when he had time to shine he was disappointing and his feats he show was unimpressive.

 

[Nemispelled]

Natsu escaped Invel's ice with fire magic, and Zeref has his black flames which should be at least as strong as the flames Natsu used even without FH. I find Invel's ice to be overrated. Gray literally just broke the divine railment with a punch. Gray's gauntlets smashed Invel's armour, so Gray's ice should be stronger. Invel might be a spriggan, but he was never stated to be exceptional among the Spriggans. I don't see him as being on August or Irene's level, or even Larcades' level.

Natsu had no idea where Invel was coming from, or who Invel was at that point. It would be a different story if Natsu and Invel were facing off, and they had to make their move. If Zeref and Invel faces off, it would be more similar to the situation where Gray faced off with Invel. In that both knew they were about to fight. I see no reason why Zeref can't tag Invel with the same ease that Gray punched him.

I never doubted that Natsu's flames are enough to melt Invel's insta-freeze. But that took some time, which is more than enough for Invel to kill off a defenseless statue.

I'm fairly certain that Gray's ice magic saved him from being frozen. For somebody like Zeref, he would be frozen instantly, especially since he couldn't even break out of Gray's Lost Ice Shell aura.


While it's true that Natsu didn't know where Invel was, the point is that Invel quickly froze Natsu, Lucy, and Juvia.

In a fight with Zeref, the speed at which Zeref gets frozen will still be the same.

Zeref can't tag Invel using CQC because if he touched the Raiment Armor, he would be finished. His blasts is the only thing that he can use.

But Invel is quicker if he just insta-freezes Zeref and tags him with Divine Ice while he's frozen for a few seconds.

 

[Axiomus]

bro i just realized what u wrote on this post i somehow missed this loooool im in tears

cool he had the power to kill zeref. lol ok?? he tanked his attacks and till able to fight natsu. base natsu causal punch FH zeref and he wasnt able to move. that same thing as kill him too. just because he had the power to kill natsu doesnt make it any different from getting revive an L from a causal punch. a lost is a lost dead or alive. and Fh zeref>base zeref. erza only disadvantage was when she could use her equip properly once she wasnt restricted she till got shitted on. also i can debate that POF kicked in when natsu melt the ice because lucy and juvia broke out with POF and that was the same time gray brought up the POF speech. also invel never use ice lock on POF gray so u cant say wouldnt work him because invel was hit by PIS. also ice lock is a sneak type of type not a direct combat attack.

come on if u want to use an analogy stick with it dont back off/switch it up if ur including POF feats then it should be with all characters not just one character. zeref hasnt shown a decent feat that make him a top tier is the FT verse. he was false hype. and im speaking facts also people also forgot that zeref has some restriction in this tournament. but yet u guys continue to believe that zeref will come on top. base natsu>>>>>>ig natsu and ingeel and ancologia. invel wisn this battle but i know he losing this round just cause people are beleive in zeref's hype

Even if base Natsu vs. Zeref > IgNatsu, that doesn't mean that base Natsu vs. Invel was stronger than IgNatsu. That's absurd. Natsu was pumped on POF against Zeref. You can even argue that the guild mark glowing counts as a new form. He went all out against Zeref, and burned his arm. This is leagues upon leagues away from the effort he used to break out of Invel's ice.

I am being consistent. All characters have POF, but not all POF is equal. Natsu w/POF > Gray w/POF.