Discussion Zoro and Sanji

[King Moe]

I'm in the middle. It's clear to me that Sanji defeated Page one. The last time we saw him he was screaming out after Sanji had just rocked him, showing Sanji with clear superiority. I dont need Oda to spoon feed me a panel of Page 1 all bandaged up to know Sanji defeated him or at least humiliated him. But, there is no proof Page 1 didnt just run away like a coward without Sanji getting the finishing blow in.

In the long run it doesnt matter. Page 1 is no doubt back up and moving both because he is a Zoan and because it's been over a week. Unless Sanji killed him, defeating him was insignificant in the long run.

It been several chapters. Idea he still around and Sanji doesn't mention it doesn't make sense. He is down for good like many who though Cracker would return last arc after some time, but didn't.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2019 ---

Sanji fights against Page One is like many of the clashes in Marineford, which don't lead anywhere.

It does as wasn't to show off RS just like in current chapters Oda off-screen fights of Oden and other stuff. Though for another reason for them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It been several chapters. Idea he still around and Sanji doesn't mention it doesn't make sense. He is down for good like many who though Cracker would return last arc after some time, but didn't.

It's been over a week in One Piece time. No opponent we've seen has been knocked out that long. And an Ancient Zoan at that.

You have to atleast admit a week is long enough for an Ancient zoan to recover enough to continue fighting. We are talking about one of Kaido's elite here

 

[Deleted member 169696]

It's been over a week in One Piece time. No opponent we've seen has been knocked out that long. And an Ancient Zoan at that.

You have to atleast admit a week is long enough for an Ancient zoan to recover enough to continue fighting. We are talking about one of Kaido's elite here

What if Sanji broke Page One's bones or something?

Then one week won't suffice.

 

[nik87]

PageOne didnt re-appear because Drake killed him.

 

[HereNThere]

There really can be no in-between for y'all is there.

Anyway, take this to the power level thread or Sanji's thread I guess.

 

[kkck]

He was aiming with front of his blade so he was trying to cut her down, but missed. Well not really as she fights by shocking you and you can see there she got him by shocking him as he groan in pain to that. So wouldn't say he 'block' the attack. I understand Zoro strikes differently, but it kinda of a 'slowish style to it compare to others who are speedster like Carrot with her abilities and mobility. Not saying Zoro will lose, but it's clear he have trouble with opponents like that.

It speed thing with nails as why couldn't Zoro use Haki to defend in time of his body instead of tanking it regularly as why use Haki at all if you don't know how to defend from sharp objects like Luffy who do it more natural when dealing with sharp objects as well with Sanji. He doesn't seem to do that flexibility with his Haki when attacks come in at him whether he knew or not.

Not saying it's always bad with his speed and speed reaction, but it's clear it's not on the lvl of Luffy and Sanji who has shown to know when to dodge and deflect more with opponents.

He face two people before and it was Nyan Brothers and Kaku and Jabra. He beaten former while survived the latter, but he is unable to do same with these two who one is nerf and other is a fox? This isn't first time Zoro face multiple threats and if he can't handle that with them, how would he face in War if many came at him the same way. That's the issue and he need to learn to raise awareness on his reaction speed and using Haki flexible in case one hit gets it especially major one given his Enma's drawback on taking his Haki away.

Brook, Idk about him. Sanji has shown he can deal with it on his mobility and reaction speed. He took on top tiers who are stronger and fight them off as of late, so he does have better performance in those stats than Zoro does.

That isn't the same thing as going all out though. This is OP, characters don't usually start fights going all out. And yeah, she shocked zoro.... but what does that have to do with speed? Was zoro supposed to avoid dodge the electricity itself? He wasn't trying to avoid the carrot's weapon touching his sword. And come on, no one believes carrot is going to give zoro an iota of trouble in a real fight. She'd get foderized near instantly... Her full moon form will definitely pose a challenge. For as shortly as it lasts...

I agree in that zoro does not seem to have that flexibility with his haki. He relies on his swords for offense and defense. But that is a different thing from zoro being slow. Or.... is the assumption here that the speed at which zoro is able to run or jump related to the speed at which zoro can deploy his haki? The manga has never elaborated on this but at least to me the notion that they would be directly connected is somewhat counter intuitive.

My point with the reaction speed was that if zoro was indeed slow, then he absolutely has to have beyond ridiculous reaction speed. As in, the slower his speed the higher his reaction speed has to be to keep up. But that only works if zoro's speed works as you mention. Logically speaking if there is a fight between zoro and sanji.... if zoro has inferior speed and reaction speed compared to sanji, then zoro simply can't even defend, he'd get helplessly kicked around. And its not a situation where zoro would need just good reaction speed, he'd need reaction speed specifically higher than sanji's. Otherwise sanji would react to zoro's reaction and still run circles around him.

 

[King Moe]

That isn't the same thing as going all out though. This is OP, characters don't usually start fights going all out. And yeah, she shocked zoro.... but what does that have to do with speed? Was zoro supposed to avoid dodge the electricity itself? He wasn't trying to avoid the carrot's weapon touching his sword. And come on, no one believes carrot is going to give zoro an iota of trouble in a real fight. She'd get foderized near instantly... Her full moon form will definitely pose a challenge. For as shortly as it lasts...

I agree in that zoro does not seem to have that flexibility with his haki. He relies on his swords for offense and defense. But that is a different thing from zoro being slow. Or.... is the assumption here that the speed at which zoro is able to run or jump related to the speed at which zoro can deploy his haki? The manga has never elaborated on this but at least to me the notion that they would be directly connected is somewhat counter intuitive.

My point with the reaction speed was that if zoro was indeed slow, then he absolutely has to have beyond ridiculous reaction speed. As in, the slower his speed the higher his reaction speed has to be to keep up. But that only works if zoro's speed works as you mention. Logically speaking if there is a fight between zoro and sanji.... if zoro has inferior speed and reaction speed compared to sanji, then zoro simply can't even defend, he'd get helplessly kicked around. And its not a situation where zoro would need just good reaction speed, he'd need reaction speed specifically higher than sanji's. Otherwise sanji would react to zoro's reaction and still run circles around him.

Happy to have honest and reasonable conversation as at least you see points and give your views while you agree on these parts, but disagree on others.

Now to your points. Speed was him trying to cut her down, not shocking factor. You can see he was aiming to attack her, but Carrot blitz from his blade and got hit in herself on him. As for real life, probably not her base form, no. Though Su Long Form would be another issue though for Zoro if he is unable to get hit on her Base like that. So just saying he does have issues with speedsters as while he might win in the end, they will do more damage to him than he does to them given their mobility and also her shocking if anything like Enel's is more affective if you use weapons as metal is conductor to be potent against him more.

He is slow on deflecting them as he can't use Haki to Harden his skin in time or use COO to know where they land yet he did same thing for Hody when he send multiple water shots at him and he dodge them all. Granted could be skill lvl, but still Zoro should have been more flexible in that scene, but that one and later with Kamazou push more he isn't good on reaction speed on dodging and deflecting a lot especially using his Haki to help him in those moments. That will cost him in a fight when his opponent does something unexpected or something he can't get around and doesn't have time to use his Haki for it. Get what I mean?

I get what you mean Sanji vs Zoro if they fought, which is why judging on both fights on their opponents, Sanji looks to have more mobility, reaction speed, and using his Haki when strike at compare to Zoro who take damage directly or just use his swords to block, but can backfire on him if push or hit by element like electricity or something. Just stating which stats they are good at and how if they face different opponents, doesn't mean Zoro would do better than Sanji as sometimes opponents excel in something that meant for character to take on like per-say if Jabra face Zoro who is much faster than Kaku with his Zoan and mastery to it, Zoro would have tougher time to keep up. Not saying he won't beat him, but clearly Jabra was someone Sanji excel on facing more than Zoro would in his fight with Kaku.

Sanji will have troubles as well facing Kaku, but will go about beating him too, just his issues is more on the 'goofyiness' and unique style of fighting as well making sure his swords don't cut him as he block with his legs, but won't have no issues facing swordsman though as not saying that.

 

[kkck]

Happy to have honest and reasonable conversation as at least you see points and give your views while you agree on these parts, but disagree on others.

Now to your points. Speed was him trying to cut her down, not shocking factor. You can see he was aiming to attack her, but Carrot blitz from his blade and got hit in herself on him. As for real life, probably not her base form, no. Though Su Long Form would be another issue though for Zoro if he is unable to get hit on her Base like that. So just saying he does have issues with speedsters as while he might win in the end, they will do more damage to him than he does to them given their mobility and also her shocking if anything like Enel's is more affective if you use weapons as metal is conductor to be potent against him more.

He is slow on deflecting them as he can't use Haki to Harden his skin in time or use COO to know where they land yet he did same thing for Hody when he send multiple water shots at him and he dodge them all. Granted could be skill lvl, but still Zoro should have been more flexible in that scene, but that one and later with Kamazou push more he isn't good on reaction speed on dodging and deflecting a lot especially using his Haki to help him in those moments. That will cost him in a fight when his opponent does something unexpected or something he can't get around and doesn't have time to use his Haki for it. Get what I mean?

I get what you mean Sanji vs Zoro if they fought, which is why judging on both fights on their opponents, Sanji looks to have more mobility, reaction speed, and using his Haki when strike at compare to Zoro who take damage directly or just use his swords to block, but can backfire on him if push or hit by element like electricity or something. Just stating which stats they are good at and how if they face different opponents, doesn't mean Zoro would do better than Sanji as sometimes opponents excel in something that meant for character to take on like per-say if Jabra face Zoro who is much faster than Kaku with his Zoan and mastery to it, Zoro would have tougher time to keep up. Not saying he won't beat him, but clearly Jabra was someone Sanji excel on facing more than Zoro would in his fight with Kaku.

Sanji will have troubles as well facing Kaku, but will go about beating him too, just his issues is more on the 'goofyiness' and unique style of fighting as well making sure his swords don't cut him as he block with his legs, but won't have no issues facing swordsman though as not saying that.

You mentioned this bit:

Well not really as she fights by shocking you and you can see there she got him by shocking him as he groan in pain to that. So wouldn't say he 'block' the attack. I understand Zoro strikes differently, but it kinda of a 'slowish style to it compare to others who are speedster like Carrot with her abilities and mobility. Not saying Zoro will lose, but it's clear he have trouble with opponents like that.

So... what's your point? We see carrot lunge, zoro attacks, carrot dodges, gets to zoro's back, attacks and then zoro blocks and gets electrocuted. Zoro absolutely blocked the attack (because at that point carrot was on the offensive). I am kinda lost tbh, your wording there is confusing.

But zoro did block at least most of the nails. In the way you'd expect him to. I suppose someone like luffy would have only armament as defense but that's not the case for zoro. Add to that a speed comparison between zoro who is using his swords to block the nails against someone who would simply harden his body seems moot at best. Zoro got attacked by a stream of nails at close range from an enemy who is at least around his own tier... And zoro only got hit by a few nails while protecting someone else.

Look at the times zoro has fought presumably faster or at least speedy people though:

Luffy vs zoro at whiskey peaks
Zoro vs ryuma

Luffy at the time didn't have gear two but he was already a nimble fighter at least. At no point in the fight did zoro have trouble keeping up with luffy's speed.

And ryuma was a corpse possessed by brook's shadow.... After having already outclassed brook in every regard. Add to that brook/ryuma being a fencer and zoro being perfectly capable of keeping the stabs at bay.Speed was never an issue for zoro in this fight.

I suppose the most reasonable alternative to this would be... oda handling speed at his own convenience and he doesn't care even a tiny bit about consistency. Oda has mentioned brook being the fastest strawhat but there is no way that this would actually be a thing in the manga in a serious fight. As in, who here doubts for a second that if there was a fight between zoro and brook where the two of them went all out from the get go the result would be anything but zoro ending brook in a near instant slash? Rather than, say, brook dodging and running around while zoro is unable to hit him? I suppose brook could potentially run away from zoro but any scenario where they fight just doesn't end with brook's alleged speed advantage being a thing. That's not how oda presents fights in the manga.

 

[King Moe]

You mentioned this bit:


So... what's your point? We see carrot lunge, zoro attacks, carrot dodges, gets to zoro's back, attacks and then zoro blocks and gets electrocuted. Zoro absolutely blocked the attack (because at that point carrot was on the offensive). I am kinda lost tbh, your wording there is confusing.

But zoro did block at least most of the nails. In the way you'd expect him to. I suppose someone like luffy would have only armament as defense but that's not the case for zoro. Add to that a speed comparison between zoro who is using his swords to block the nails against someone who would simply harden his body seems moot at best. Zoro got attacked by a stream of nails at close range from an enemy who is at least around his own tier... And zoro only got hit by a few nails while protecting someone else.

Look at the times zoro has fought presumably faster or at least speedy people though:

Luffy vs zoro at whiskey peaks
Zoro vs ryuma

Luffy at the time didn't have gear two but he was already a nimble fighter at least. At no point in the fight did zoro have trouble keeping up with luffy's speed.

And ryuma was a corpse possessed by brook's shadow.... After having already outclassed brook in every regard. Add to that brook/ryuma being a fencer and zoro being perfectly capable of keeping the stabs at bay.Speed was never an issue for zoro in this fight.

I suppose the most reasonable alternative to this would be... oda handling speed at his own convenience and he doesn't care even a tiny bit about consistency. Oda has mentioned brook being the fastest strawhat but there is no way that this would actually be a thing in the manga in a serious fight. As in, who here doubts for a second that if there was a fight between zoro and brook where the two of them went all out from the get go the result would be anything but zoro ending brook in a near instant slash? Rather than, say, brook dodging and running around while zoro is unable to hit him? I suppose brook could potentially run away from zoro but any scenario where they fight just doesn't end with brook's alleged speed advantage being a thing. That's not how oda presents fights in the manga.

My point of him unable to cut her in time before she strikes back at him and shocks him. Talking about when he was aiming to strike at her at first go, but she outspeed him and got him first.

I get how they fight differently, but if Zoro can only use COA just on his swords, then what's point of having it if he can't learn to use on his body or least use his COO affectively to block them all off so it doesn't damage him. Also not protecting as Luffy was there with Tama, if it was just him and Tama, I understand, but I do see Luffy helpless when that comes as knowing him he would use Haki to protect himself and Tama over his body or use Balloon encased with Haki to do so.

Luffy vs Zoro isn't good example as during fight Luffy got all his punches in. Zoro barely hurt him or got hits in. Luffy was faster striker than him in damaging and only got him once when he got him within his tornado, but Luffy counter it by punching square in the face afterwards where he was standing. Obvious in the fight, Luffy is more agile than him when comparing them.

As for Zoro vs Ryuma, I will say that it was a fight where speed was quite quick especially with Brook's shadow, but they take stances before swift striking each other, so debatable on speed on how fast it was. Though will say it was one of the clashes of swordsmanship and skill for sure. Though talking more as of late in timeskip than using past events as it seems he is lacking what he used to have back then in keeping up compare to that. Zoro from TB wouldn't have gone down to Wano arc if he has those reflexes, but somehow he got hurt by Hawkins with nails and later with Kamazou and Gyukimaro. He isn't same as he was before and which is why he stated he need to get stronger and train again.

Think it counts for both running and fighting speed as Brook does cut you in a speed that hard to blink similar to Sanji when he hit Oven and people weren't aware of hit until later. So if they were to fight seriously. Zoro might win given his durability and stamina to outlash to get blow, but after Wano fight, it's debatable more as Brook can hit you hard especially with his Ice abilities, so feel be high-extreme fight between them depending. Oda has push Brook serious when he is fighting as well out speeding his opponents when he strikes. I doubt Zoro has reach anything in that speed when he attacks someone as best it comes is when happens the moments he strikes while Brook harm those before they realize it and he sheathed back his sword judging on fighting style.

 

[Fox666]

You mentioned this bit:


So... what's your point? We see carrot lunge, zoro attacks, carrot dodges, gets to zoro's back, attacks and then zoro blocks and gets electrocuted. Zoro absolutely blocked the attack (because at that point carrot was on the offensive). I am kinda lost tbh, your wording there is confusing.

But zoro did block at least most of the nails. In the way you'd expect him to. I suppose someone like luffy would have only armament as defense but that's not the case for zoro. Add to that a speed comparison between zoro who is using his swords to block the nails against someone who would simply harden his body seems moot at best. Zoro got attacked by a stream of nails at close range from an enemy who is at least around his own tier... And zoro only got hit by a few nails while protecting someone else.

Look at the times zoro has fought presumably faster or at least speedy people though:

Luffy vs zoro at whiskey peaks
Zoro vs ryuma

Luffy at the time didn't have gear two but he was already a nimble fighter at least. At no point in the fight did zoro have trouble keeping up with luffy's speed.

And ryuma was a corpse possessed by brook's shadow.... After having already outclassed brook in every regard. Add to that brook/ryuma being a fencer and zoro being perfectly capable of keeping the stabs at bay.Speed was never an issue for zoro in this fight.

I suppose the most reasonable alternative to this would be... oda handling speed at his own convenience and he doesn't care even a tiny bit about consistency. Oda has mentioned brook being the fastest strawhat but there is no way that this would actually be a thing in the manga in a serious fight. As in, who here doubts for a second that if there was a fight between zoro and brook where the two of them went all out from the get go the result would be anything but zoro ending brook in a near instant slash? Rather than, say, brook dodging and running around while zoro is unable to hit him? I suppose brook could potentially run away from zoro but any scenario where they fight just doesn't end with brook's alleged speed advantage being a thing. That's not how oda presents fights in the manga.

If you read the fight of Zoro with Ryuuma, it's clear Brook had no problem seeing their movements. He even talks about how his own attacks don't have the same destructive power as Ryuuma.

Brook vs Ryuuma gives an idea of what would happen if Brook was fighting Zoro... speed wouldn't be a problem, but once their swords clashed, Brook would be completely overpowered.

 

[kkck]

If you read the fight of Zoro with Ryuuma, it's clear Brook had no problem seeing their movements. He even talks about how his own attacks don't have the same destructive power as Ryuuma.

Brook vs Ryuuma gives an idea of what would happen if Brook was fighting Zoro... speed wouldn't be a problem, but once their swords clashed, Brook would be completely overpowered.

Well, yeah, that is sort of the point. In the fight between ryuma and brook we see brook simply being outclassed. And the fight ended when brook and ryuma used brook's strongest technique, the 3 step humming thing. It is large a speed based technique and ryuma came out on top. And then you have the ryuma vs zoro fight.... and at no point do you see a substantial difference in their speed. And this is even in spite of ryuma's fencing style where he uses thrusts which are, in theory at least, faster than slashes.

 

[afromarco005]

Unless his raid suit protects sanjiro from haki imbued katanas then this:

Spoiler

happens to him eventually.

Btw oda greenlit this movie so thats that

 

[ish3]

This is a summary of how silly everyone sounds. I wish I could put up the zoro with luffys straw hat image.

 

[King Moe]

Unless his raid suit protects sanjiro from haki imbued katanas then this:

Spoiler

happens to him eventually.

Btw oda greenlit this movie so thats that

Oda greenlit all the movies. Guess you agree to Zoro being beaten by filler stuff like glue, when he was captured in sixth movie, couldn't beat Crocodile in latest, fighting weaker opponent in Z, dressing as girl in Omake, etc..

If we going by fillers are canon than guess those are too .

Zoro got nothing to do against Sanji if fainting from one hit is all it took to beat him. Haki didn't help with Hawkins, Kyoshiro, Kamazou, and Gyukimaro in the long run and been hype tool Wan while Sanji is beating facing and beat credible threats like PO and Drake.

 

[hokageji]

Also see him equal or stronger at times than Zoro

I disagree... Zoro > Sanji in terms of fighting skills... but its close....

 

[King Moe]

I disagree... Zoro > Sanji in terms of fighting skills... but its close....

Looking at Wano, nah that's a lie. Sanji would end him until he learn how to tank and stamina again. His attack has evolved on his end too.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It speaks volumes because Zoro trains nonstop, day after day to get to where he is at right now. Sanji hasnt trained physically at all, that we have seen on panel

And still the 2 are very near each other combat wise. This is a combination of Oda's portrayal of the 2 and fan discussed.

If Sanji was only focused on cooking, we'd have character like Franky or Robin over him combatwise and that isnt the case.

Sanji and Zoro are always spoken about in the same type of tough situations where their strength is looked to for protection (by the weaker Strawhats)

Bottom line, Sanji cooks and Zoro trains but Oda still hasn't shown Zoro is far and away miles ahead of Sanji, especially since neither have has a proper all out 1 v 1

 

[HereNThere]

Is it not possible that he can focus on cooking and be strong, you know, like how it's been constantly shown in the series?

Law's a doctor and he's strong, yet I never see his job being used to downplay his strength.

 

[nik87]

Let me ask you this, if you put fighting out and rank them on just their characters, would you still put Zoro way ahead of Sanji?

Yes, I have nothing interesting on Sanjino to pick, except his spectacular cooking.

 

[hokageji]

Whats so spectacular about his cooking?