Fall NFL Thread

[Jammin]

Re: The NFL Thread

Well, Jammin, if the Ravens won home field advantage over the Patriots on a tiebreaker or something, the solution could be just to host the game at a neutral site, although I doubt the NFL would go in that direction, because that would be admitting that they were at fault.

Sure that would be a solution. Except for the fact that the NFL would never ever do that.

Though like I said this could all be a moot point. It seems unlikely the Raven's and the Pat's will end up with the same record; even if they do both make the playoffs, which is certainly not a sure thing for either team.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Re: The NFL Thread

Sure that would be a solution. Except for the fact that the NFL would never ever do that.

Though like I said this could all be a moot point. It seems unlikely the Raven's and the Pat's will end up with the same record; even if they do both make the playoffs, which is certainly not a sure thing for either team.

If the Ravens end up 12-4 and the Patriots are 11-5, then that game still mattered. The tiebreaker means that the Pats have to outperform the Ravens to get home field, which means that it will be an unfair advantage if it goes on like this. As we both know, the NFL would never go with a neutral site for the AFC Championship game.

To be honest, the Patriots could have been expected to win that game, as the only game the Patriots have ever lost to the Ravens was that playoff game where Welker wasn't able to play. Now, a 7-1 record doesn't mean that the Patriots will win, but the Patriots had had the advantage in the series. In fact, the questionable refereeing disadvantaged the Patriots more because if the Ravens were disadvantaged and lost, I'm not sure that anyone would've necessarily raised eyebrows about it. Yes, of course the refereeing would still have been an issue, but I think less of an issue.

 

[Kaiten]

Re: The NFL Thread

Looks like a deal between the NFL and the NFLRA is imminent (if not completed). That disaster on Monday night really may have been the tipping point. Sounds like they are working to have the real ref's back this weekend.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Re: The NFL Thread

It does appear to be that way, Kaiten, but the NFL still look like complete asses even if a deal is done and the regular refs in place for this weekend's games.

 

[xi0]

Re: The NFL Thread

That's exactly it. I mean, it's impossibly to say how the officiating effected that game but it definitely did.

Both of Torry Smith's touchdown catches were push-offs (though admittedly the first one was fairly minor). The final drive was one giant mass of penalty provided first downs, including that insane illegal contact penalty they called within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. The game winning field goal looked very questionable. Ray Lewis spent most of the game straight up mugging Gronkowski at midfield. To top of all of that, every-time the Pat's tried to go no huddle the Ref's stopped the game for 30 seconds or more giving the defense time to rest. And all that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Now there can be no doubt that the Raven's suffered too, but did they suffer THAT much? I don't know, if we don't know then I think an asterisk has to go on it.

I have to disagree about Smith's catches though. The second was flagged and then picked up, which I think was a good call.

I didn't watch Lewis vs. Gronkowski the entire game, so I can't say, but Lewis was penalized for Pass Interference/Holding/Illegal Contact against him at LEAST once in the game. So that didn't go unnoticed either.

I don't recall the exact play the illegal contact was called, but McCourty completely stepped in it by wrapping up Jacoby Jones...that cost the Patriots big.

If the Ravens end up 12-4 and the Patriots are 11-5, then that game still mattered. The tiebreaker means that the Pats have to outperform the Ravens to get home field, which means that it will be an unfair advantage if it goes on like this. As we both know, the NFL would never go with a neutral site for the AFC Championship game.

To be honest, the Patriots could have been expected to win that game, as the only game the Patriots have ever lost to the Ravens was that playoff game where Welker wasn't able to play. Now, a 7-1 record doesn't mean that the Patriots will win, but the Patriots had had the advantage in the series. In fact, the questionable refereeing disadvantaged the Patriots more because if the Ravens were disadvantaged and lost, I'm not sure that anyone would've necessarily raised eyebrows about it. Yes, of course the refereeing would still have been an issue, but I think less of an issue.

Expected? The Ravens were favored in the game.

Even with the legit referees the home team more often than not gets more calls. The fact is the Ravens haven't played the Patriots at home since 2007 when we nearly broke their winning streak and suspect officiating was responsible then...though not as awful overall. The last 3 matchups prior to this were on the road, with the Patriots winning two regular season matchups and losing one in the playoffs. They're both good franchises, so homefield advantage definitely plays into the record. It's not a case of them being divisional rivals and meeting home and away, it's just the way it shook out with the schedule-makers.

It does appear to be that way, Kaiten, but the NFL still look like complete asses even if a deal is done and the regular refs in place for this weekend's games.

Temporarily. They're smart to fix this ASAP, soon it'll be in the back of our thoughts I'm afraid.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Re: The NFL Thread

I have to disagree about Smith's catches though. The second was flagged and then picked up, which I think was a good call.

I didn't watch Lewis vs. Gronkowski the entire game, so I can't say, but Lewis was penalized for Pass Interference/Holding/Illegal Contact against him at LEAST once in the game. So that didn't go unnoticed either.

I don't recall the exact play the illegal contact was called, but McCourty completely stepped in it by wrapping up Jacoby Jones...that cost the Patriots big.

You know, he's a neutral party and I'm a Pats fan, so we're always going to disagree with you on this one, Gary. You're a lot less likely/willing to see Ravens' players committing penalties than a neutral party or a fan of the opposition. The Ravens were actually called for more penalties for more yards, but our receivers weren't getting away with anything like yours were. Edelman got shoved and was being defended by a player who didn't even turn around or make a play on the ball, but somehow it's OFFENSIVE pass interference?

Expected? The Ravens were favored in the game.

Even with the legit referees the home team more often than not gets more calls. The fact is the Ravens haven't played the Patriots at home since 2007 when we nearly broke their winning streak and suspect officiating was responsible then...though not as awful overall. The last 3 matchups prior to this were on the road, with the Patriots winning two regular season matchups and losing one in the playoffs. They're both good franchises, so homefield advantage definitely plays into the record. It's not a case of them being divisional rivals and meeting home and away, it's just the way it shook out with the schedule-makers.

Learn to ignore the odds.

In the 2007 game, regardless of what you want to say about the officiating, if the Ravens had kept a timeout in that game, they would've won. If I remember the events correctly, the Ravens hurled it up and got down to like the two or three yard line and if there were a timeout remaining, I think they would've won, but there wasn't, so the clock ran out.

Based on the history between the two teams, and the fact that the only game the Ravens won was one where we were completely out of sorts after Welker was injured in the final week of the season, the Patriots should be slightly favored. The Patriots lost to the Cardinals the previous week in a poorly played game, but also through a missed Gostkowski FG, whereas the Ravens allowed Vick to turn it over so many times and still escape with the win.

Temporarily. They're smart to fix this ASAP, soon it'll be in the back of our thoughts I'm afraid.

I don't know about you, but I'm not going to be forgetting about this. When it comes time for the playoffs, we'll be thinking about this quite a lot, especially if the Ravens, Patriots, and Packers are involved in some tight, tight playoff races and/or home field advantage races.

 

[Kaiten]

Re: The NFL Thread

It does appear to be that way, Kaiten, but the NFL still look like complete asses even if a deal is done and the regular refs in place for this weekend's games.

There is no question this has been a PR disaster for the NFL. They clearly did not prepare the replacement ref's, might not have cared, so the product on the field clearly suffered. The NFL has, to some extent, revealed the man behind the curtain. To many fans who might otherwise not have cared, the NFL now appears to care more about the bottom line than they do about the quality of play. So little money was at stake, unlike the players lock out, that the NFL taking such a hardline is difficult to justify.

Temporarily. They're smart to fix this ASAP, soon it'll be in the back of our thoughts I'm afraid.

This hardly qualifies as ASAP. They locked the ref's out over the summer. Since then it has not appeared as if the NFL had any plans to negotiate.

 

[Ghan]

Re: The NFL Thread

Just got off of twitter and found out that The league and the refs have struck a deal. Now it just needs to be signed

 

[Jammin]

Re: The NFL Thread

I find it strange how all the sports media people were so sold on the idea that "Nothing people can do will matter to the owners because people will still watch games etc.."

Are those people not aware of how much money the NFL makes from it's image through endorsements. If the NFL image suffers, the value of the brand suffers because nobody is tripping over-themselves to be endorsed by a brand people don't like.

Even worse would have been what could have happened if Congress picked up the issue, which is exactly what happened with Baseball. If the worst case had happened, we could have seen a sub-committee get formed and, in an election year, there would have been members of congress lining up to rake the owners and Goodell over the coals.

 

[xi0]

Re: The NFL Thread

You know, he's a neutral party and I'm a Pats fan, so we're always going to disagree with you on this one, Gary. You're a lot less likely/willing to see Ravens' players committing penalties than a neutral party or a fan of the opposition. The Ravens were actually called for more penalties for more yards, but our receivers weren't getting away with anything like yours were. Edelman got shoved and was being defended by a player who didn't even turn around or make a play on the ball, but somehow it's OFFENSIVE pass interference?

He's not a neutral party, he's a Steeler fan. It would be the same as a Jets or Ravens fan weighing in on a Patriots-Steelers game.

---------- Post added at 07:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ----------

In the 2007 game, regardless of what you want to say about the officiating, if the Ravens had kept a timeout in that game, they would've won. If I remember the events correctly, the Ravens hurled it up and got down to like the two or three yard line and if there were a timeout remaining, I think they would've won, but there wasn't, so the clock ran out.

No, I'm talking about the clear neglect of rules when it comes to the procedure of timeouts. On a forth and short, the Patriots QB sneaked the ball and were stuffed. A timeout was called prior to the ball being snapped SUPPOSEDLY...but not by someone who can called a timeout. It was Rex Ryan calling a timeout, when only the head coach or players on the field can do so. Because of this the Patriots were allowed to continue their go-ahead drive.

It's being anal, but if we're going to play by the rules and proper procedure, play by them.

I don't know about you, but I'm not going to be forgetting about this. When it comes time for the playoffs, we'll be thinking about this quite a lot, especially if the Ravens, Patriots, and Packers are involved in some tight, tight playoff races and/or home field advantage races.

Sure, but I meant the NFL as a whole from the perspective of a fan. Not everyone feels like they were screwed.

People will treat this like the 1987 season and won't call for the records to have asterisks. That's all I meant.

But sorry if I can't compare the magnitude of the Packers-Seahawks game to the Patriots-Ravens one. This came down to the final play of the game, with no clock left and was completely an utterly bungled.

I actually tend to be fair when we lose, even if the officiating is shit. There are so many moments in a game that determine the outcome.

---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

This hardly qualifies as ASAP. They locked the ref's out over the summer. Since then it has not appeared as if the NFL had any plans to negotiate.

I meant ASAP after last weeks games, especially Monday Night. I find it interesting that tomorrow night's Ravens-Browns game will still feature these fake refs while the weekend won't. At least that's my understanding. Doesn't seem right.

---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 PM ----------

I find it strange how all the sports media people were so sold on the idea that "Nothing people can do will matter to the owners because people will still watch games etc.."

Are those people not aware of how much money the NFL makes from it's image through endorsements. If the NFL image suffers, the value of the brand suffers because nobody is tripping over-themselves to be endorsed by a brand people don't like.

I guarantee no company endorsing the NFL or paying for ads was happy about signing that jumbo check to them Tuesday morning, that's for sure.

 

[Jammin]

Re: The NFL Thread

He's not a neutral party, he's a Steeler fan. It would be the same as a Jets or Ravens fan weighing in on a Patriots-Steelers game.

I'm not entirely neutral but to be honest my level of dislike for the Patriots is only slightly lower than that of the Ravens so...take from that what you will.

Still, I would say the way the game was officiated played a huge role in the Patriots loss on Sunday. Does that mean the Patriots would have won otherwise? No. the Ravens got hurt plenty by the calls, so you can't say that. The only thing that I think it's safe to say is that the officiating had a profound impact on that game. If the officiating had caused the Raven's to lose I would regard it the same way.

For what it's worth, if that game were to be played over again in Baltimore with legit Refs my money would be on the Ravens.

-------------------------------

And as for my Steeler bias...

You don't see me arguing the Steelers loss to the Raiders was in doubt. I wish it was but I watched every minute of that game. Calls were blown but not in a way that altered the outcome of the game. Oakland won, as far as I'm concerned; no asterisk there. If I can admit that about my own team then I don't think my bias is THAT strong.

 

[xi0]

Re: The NFL Thread

I'm not entirely neutral but to be honest my level of dislike for the Patriots is only slightly lower than that of the Ravens so...take from that what you will.

Still, I would say the way the game was officiated played a huge role in the Patriots loss on Sunday. Does that mean the Patriots would have won otherwise? No. the Ravens got hurt plenty by the calls, so you can't say that. The only thing that I think it's safe to say is that the officiating had a profound impact on that game. If the officiating had caused the Raven's to lose I would regard it the same way.

For what it's worth, if that game were to be played over again in Baltimore with legit Refs my money would be on the Ravens.

-------------------------------

And as for my Steeler bias...

You don't see me arguing the Steelers loss to the Raiders was in doubt. I wish it was but I watched every minute of that game. Calls were blown but not in a way that altered the outcome of the game. Oakland won, as far as I'm concerned; no asterisk there. If I can admit that about my own team then I don't think my bias is THAT strong.

Fair enough, I'm just calling a spade and spade here. I'd like to think I can try to unbiased and fair too, but we all have our moments.

If the officiating was shit all around, it's hard for me to dissect this call/noncall or that one and say one way or the other. I think we're saying the same thing, but the circumstances were what they were, as was the result.



That's fair sure. I think the only circumstance where I would have a lasting denial of the outcome of the game is if I was a Packers fan, or something similar happened. Something THAT blatant and unfair, you know?

 

[FrostyMouse]

Re: The NFL Thread

He's not a neutral party, he's a Steeler fan. It would be the same as a Jets or Ravens fan weighing in on a Patriots-Steelers game.

The fact that he also hates the Patriots is what I was getting at. It's not as if he's a 49ers fan or something and had absolutely no stake in this game, as he probably would've preferred the Patriots to win, although you don't want to have to go to Foxborough and win in the snow either.

No, I'm talking about the clear neglect of rules when it comes to the procedure of timeouts. On a forth and short, the Patriots QB sneaked the ball and were stuffed. A timeout was called prior to the ball being snapped SUPPOSEDLY...but not by someone who can called a timeout. It was Rex Ryan calling a timeout, when only the head coach or players on the field can do so. Because of this the Patriots were allowed to continue their go-ahead drive.

It's being anal, but if we're going to play by the rules and proper procedure, play by them.

Oh, that one. Well, someone should've told Rex Ryan that he wasn't allowed to call a timeout. A ref just sees someone signalling for a timeout and gives it. I'm not saying it was right, but it's what happened. It was wrong, there's no denying that.

Fair enough, I'm just calling a spade and spade here. I'd like to think I can try to unbiased and fair too, but we all have our moments.

If the officiating was shit all around, it's hard for me to dissect this call/noncall or that one and say one way or the other. I think we're saying the same thing, but the circumstances were what they were, as was the result.

I suppose that that is fair. I just think that the position is that the Patriots were ahead when all of the bad calls really started to come, that's all. However, regardless, the game is over, so there's really no use debating it anymore.

That's fair sure. I think the only circumstance where I would have a lasting denial of the outcome of the game is if I was a Packers fan, or something similar happened. Something THAT blatant and unfair, you know?

Raiders fans probably still hate the "tuck rule," which even I, as a hardcore Pats fan, will admit was so clearly a fumble, it's not funny; I thought we'd lost it right there, but then the NFL ruled in our favor and against Al Davis, and well, history's history. Well, I thought Ravens fans might have had a problem with that play last year in the AFC Championship game where the game winning TD was slapped away/dropped, but there wasn't bad officiating there or anything. I still think that play was a TD and we should've lost, but that wasn't the call on the field. Although, it is true that Packers fans have a huge problem with this and there's nothing to say there.

I had no problem with our lost to the Cardinals last week because we were outplayed and then Gostkowski shanked the game winning FG, so that loss was all on us.

 

[xi0]

Re: The NFL Thread

I suppose that that is fair. I just think that the position is that the Patriots were ahead when all of the bad calls really started to come, that's all. However, regardless, the game is over, so there's really no use debating it anymore.

There was a clear distinction in the officials' attitude between the halves. I think to be fair there weren't ENOUGH flags thrown in the first half, especially with the extra-curricular activity after the plays were whistled dead.

Raiders fans probably still hate the "tuck rule," which even I, as a hardcore Pats fan, will admit was so clearly a fumble, it's not funny; I thought we'd lost it right there, but then the NFL ruled in our favor and against Al Davis, and well, history's history. Well, I thought Ravens fans might have had a problem with that play last year in the AFC Championship game where the game winning TD was slapped away/dropped, but there wasn't bad officiating there or anything. I still think that play was a TD and we should've lost, but that wasn't the call on the field. Although, it is true that Packers fans have a huge problem with this and there's nothing to say there.

We had a problem with it at first. But refs need to enforce the rules as they see it in real time. That and the fact that Cundiff still had a shot to send it to overtime and choked.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Re: The NFL Thread

There was a clear distinction in the officials' attitude between the halves. I think to be fair there weren't ENOUGH flags thrown in the first half, especially with the extra-curricular activity after the plays were whistled dead.

That could be true. Then, too many flags started being thrown and for the wrong things. :P

We had a problem with it at first. But refs need to enforce the rules as they see it in real time. That and the fact that Cundiff still had a shot to send it to overtime and choked.

Ah, okay. Yeah, Cundiff still had the opportunity to send it to overtime, but that's why he's out of a job now.

 

[xi0]

Re: The NFL Thread

Ah, okay. Yeah, Cundiff still had the opportunity to send it to overtime, but that's why he's out of a job now.

Well, that's not the only reason he was cut. Ryan Tucker just plain outperformed him in the preseason. I think he missed one long attempt in the preseason and hasn't missed yet this season. Kickers are finicky creatures, once it gets in their head they can be screwed. I don't envy that position.



Good to see the Redskins picked Cundiff up though

 

[FrostyMouse]

Re: The NFL Thread

Well, that's not the only reason he was cut. Ryan Tucker just plain outperformed him in the preseason. I think he missed one long attempt in the preseason and hasn't missed yet this season. Kickers are finicky creatures, once it gets in their head they can be screwed. I don't envy that position.



Good to see the Redskins picked Cundiff up though

Ah, okay.

Well, RG3 hasn't won except for the Saints game, so we'll see. :P

 

[predsfan]

Re: The NFL Thread

Am I the only one disappointed that the referee lockout looks like it could come to an end? Granted, I'm not really super invested in the NFL apart from 3 or 4 teams (I think I root against more teams than I root for ) I seriously love these Replacement Refs. It's hilarious to me, and therefore, entertaining as hell. Now if I had money on the Packers/Seahawks game that might be a different story.

In other news, I'm absolutely loving that the Saints are 0-3. By far the best story for me of the season

 

[xi0]

Re: The NFL Thread

It's sideshow entertainment and interesting but no, I'm not sad that we'll have legitimate refs.

What will be funny is how the next big blown call will be put under a microscope

 

[FrostyMouse]

Re: The NFL Thread

So, the lockout is officially over and Adam Schefter reports that there will be regular refs at the Browns-Ravens game on Thursday night, or in other words, in like 20 hours.