To the person who said that not every Spriggan 12 member can solo the GOI, thank you so so much for that, I dont like how most people tend to downplay the GOI way too much when it comes to the Spriggan 12 match ups..
Personally, I think when the GOI fought God Serena, Jacob and August, the only two who they would lose to on that front would be Serena (as we were shown in action) and August (because he's freaking August! Duh)
If they were fighting Lessio I think they could beat him,and I think they would beat everyone other than my top 5 Spriggan 12 members:
1. Eileen
2.August
3.Dimaria
4.God Serena
5.Brandish
That means that pretty much every other Spriggan 12 member would lose to the GOI at best, and at worst they would draw with them
Thanks for your post. Let's stop downplaying the GoI just because GS beat them handily. Other spriggans might have beaten them, yes, but not with such ease.
Sadly, I think Jacob would've overpowered them just becuase of his spatial magic
in the event there's no NLF, and there seems not to be, if Jacob manages to pull off his spatial magic, then they will all be transported to his dimension... But, of course, that would happen with Acno as well! (Again, in the event NLF is not applicable here).
I think that, since the GoI would not be knowledgeable of Lessio's magic, it's likely that Hyberion's magic is used a little too late, when Jacob has already activated spatial magic. It's hard to say which one of the two magics would activate before, and in the event Hyberion managed to do so, then the GoI may stand a chance.
I also agree with you on things like Wahl would lose to the GoI+Jura, Neinhart would definetely lose to them, and maybe even some others. But then there's people who put all Spriggan 12 on the same league and the GoI a tier below just because all Spriggan12 (except august and irene) were said to be on the same league. That argument is also 'true' and whoever defends it is entitled to.
Considering Erza already gave Ajeel some difficulty (although she wouldn't have won on her own) and assuming the GoI are 3 Erzas + 1 Jura, they would beat Ajeel rather handily. I'd also like to thing that vampire magic is a counter against Bradman's MBP but I don't know so I'll refrain from claiming anything like that.
I fully believe August/Irene > DiMaria, and I see you point. But my argument still stands, if we're going to apply whether or not Neinhart can counter Age Seal then I think August/Irene should be held accountable as well, if we're being fair. I think it's always best to be liberal with some of the rankings, rather than be selective for one and not the other.
We agree then. Based on hype, August/Irene > Dimaria. Based on 'feats' and in the event we don't account for the NLF, Dimaria would be above though, in terms of hax.
I really don't have an answer for DiMaria's hax though, which is why I rate her up there with Laxus. She has the potential to solo someone with feats like Laxus - the person who right now probably has the best feats among the good guys.
I do believe the Spriggans have the MP and the good guys have the skills. Although Spriggans like Dimaria have the MP+Skills. So, a Dimaria matchup with Laxus is a bad matchup... Actually, pretty much anyone against Dimaria is a bad matchup.
Some people claim Age Seal won't work on people with similar or higher MP than Dimaria, but Dimaria should arguably have more MP than Laxus, so Laxus would get age sealed...
OR maybe age limit won't work on beings FROM Laxus' level on (we know it worked on Kagura but she kind of hinted that something was going on, and Laxus >> Kagura.
Imo Jacob clapping his hands is pretty quick. You would have to know that a hand clap = transport for you to rush him and stop it.
Exactly what I mention above, in my GoI vs Jacob potential versus. If Hyberion happens to know that, upon joining his hands, Jacob is automatically going to win; then maybe he can do something to help it. Otherwise, Jacob should be too quick at joining his palms.
I'm not trying to downplay Age Seal > Transport, but I'm saying Transport should be held with similar regard to Age Seal.
I get your point, although whereas I believe age seal to be activated in nanoseconds, I think transportation requires of 1-2 seconds to activate it + 2 seconds to fully render it (seen when, after joining his hands, the members of FT still didn't disappear until a couple of panels later, but they were in the verge of disappearing).
Thought processes should be equal for both. I think both girls would be able to trigger their magic quickly, but Age Seal > Mass Manipulation right now.
Think of this: Dimaria only needs to think of stopping time so that it happens. She's used to it. It's her magic and she only has to think of this one thing, so it's been authomatized. It will be activated within nano or miliseconds.
As for Brandish, thinking of
how she's going to apply her magic, as in, that part she's going to shrink, to what size, etc.; these thoughts should take slightly more miliseconds or even seconds than Dimaria's magic. But hey, that's all speculation.
Like I said before, how easy is it to clap? Whose going to know that a clap = Transport? I understand what you're saying and I'm not trying to disagree too hard here, but it's not like Jacob's hax is really below DiMaria's, if we consider they're both pretty OP.
Entirely got you. However I still think that an authomatised thought is nano/miliseconds, a thought is miliseconds-seconds and a body movement is seconds. But the effect would ultimately be similar.
However, you claim that the time of the activation does not make them leagues appart. It's all very relative, since we could understand that someone would actually pull something off within 1 second but it would be too unconceivable within nanoseconds.
To give you an example, I can believe that Acnologia blitzes Dimaria before she even activates age seal, similar to what he did against GS, but no other character should be capable of blitzing a character within nanoseconds. But within seconds, I can see it. So it does make a difference.
That is true, but having a counter is essentially what you're saying Neinhart needs to be anywhere near DiMaria. I agree DiMaria > Neinhart, but I don't think there is a huge gap between them or anything like that.
If we abide by NLF, then yeah, it's likely Neinhart, having ridiculous amounts of MP, is capable of withstanding age seal and then, he can pull off a fight against Dimaria in equal terms.
If we consider that age seal is going to work against Neinhart, then she definetely is tiers above him... but that's only my opinion.
While Wahl is all cqc, and he has arguably good durability (he can withstand Laxus' magicless blows, we don't know how good he'd do against an opponent whose magic Wahl was not immune. For example, if Laxus used fire instead of lightning, or any other element for that matter, he'd have won very easily, without having to resort to a new kind of lightning/magic.
However, Laxus (and most characters on the good side by that token) wouldn't even be capable of getting close to Bradman without dying. Laxus may have MBP resistance but he's an exception. Natsu, Erza, Jellal... Anyone capable of standing against a spriggan couldn't arguably get close enough to Bradman.
So, I can see Natsu, Erza, Jellal fighting Wahl. Heck, I can EVEN see them winning... in some scenarios and under some conditions. But against Bradman, hell no!
But then again we'll get back to your original stance - who can counter it? Should Bradman ~ Irene/August, if they've not shown a counter?
Yeah, NLF... Let's assume that, since they've been stated to be stronger than the other Spriggans, they can individually solo all of them, because they can counter their magic.
Even if DiMaria used Age Seal, can she hit an MBP body?
Good point. But I believe she could have plenty of time to think of a way to kill him! and all in all her hax is superior to his because it covers a larger AoE, I think... So she can potentially kill more people, and faster.
Wahl can counter Bradman.
I get you, but Bradman has a wide variety of magic to defeat Wahl, whereas Wahl's only got cqc and beams that aren't going to even scratch Bradman (I think).
Wahl got beaten by Laxus despite an advantage.
That is one of the reasons why I consider Wahl an overrated, and not so strong Spriggan.
Bradman had an intangibility advantage and still couldn't take out Gajeel or Levy.
While I believe Levy's case to be a plothole, Gajeel was a natural counter (iron-made lungs) and therefore, he was an exception. Similar to Ur being a counter against age seal.
Wahl has better offensive feats,
Does he? Bradman didn't actually display all he's capable of. As a matter of fact, he's got some strength/power-based curses that might overpower most of Wahl's attacks... But I'm not sure.
Bradman with his body has better defensive feats. I'd still take Wahl because I prefer less hax as it's more accurate imo - but that is just me.
I also don't like too haxy characters because we don't know when their hax works or it doesn't... Wahl is an opponent we can 'measure', and we can know who among the good guys could beat him or put up a fight with him, whereas foes like Dimaria are well aside from these standards...
This is why I don't choose to rate each person in a tier about how they'd fare against someone else in it; like Wahl with Bradman. If I did, Bradman has no chance with Wahl. It's always best to rate them on how they'd fair against a neutral opponent. If you do that, you rule out all bias and advantages, and thus get a better idea.
I totally, totally get your point. Especially in Dimaria, Brandish, Bradman or Jacob being in the same tier. All of them have similarly dangerous hax. Jacob was beaten because of plot hole (Happy preventing him from using spatial magic), Brandish and Bradman because they faced a natural counter, and Brandish is yet to be defeated, although there's arguably no known counter to her magic... Well that guy from the Zentopia filler who can do exactly the same as Brandish' magic with his lance.
This might be the case, but until a hax wizard actually completely solos the world or something, I'm not going to hype them too far. I think as readers we can think of all kinds of possibilities for a hax, and give them the max threshold for their abilitiy.
Yeah, abiding by the NLF is always the wisest thing to do in such cases.
For a CQC or non-hax wizard, their magic falls under the rules that we're more accustomed to, so we give them a more accurate rating. I'm not trying to downplay hax, but I'm not being overly generous to it either. August and Irene are definitely above DiMaria. I think it's reasonable to ask why. We can have 2 assumptions. 1) They can counter Age Seal. 2) Being more powerful in the manga doesn't require having direct counters to specific people (example Bradish can't counter Mest).
100% agree. Given the author hasn't given us any indication of the limits of hax, let's leave it to readers to put some limits. For once, we know Dimaria's hax ain't affecting Irene/August with, what, 90% accuracy?
Well I think Serena can lose to Wahl.
Hmmm... Imagine Wahl is made of iron/steel and, among Serena's elements, there's iron/steel... If that's not the case, after seeing his performance against the GoI + Jura, who, as a unit, should at least be as powerful as Laxus (IMO, of course), I don't think Wahl would beat him.
It's not like Serena boasts feats that far outstrip Wahl. They're within each others reasonable limits. But, even if they're in the same tier, it doesn't mean that there isn't people who can't beat another in it. It all depends on how you want to make tiers.
Feat wise I'll have to agree with you, though, that if GS's and Wahl's weren't equally simlar, Wahl's were better. But still, even if his attacks did not cover a large AoE as BDKM Natsu's, they seemed destructive enough so as to wreck 3GoI+Jura, who, in my mind, should, as a unit, operate on a similar scale as Laxus.
Personally I look at Base Natsu's FD spells and compare them to God Serena's Purgatory Hellflame. We don't know much about the GoI's physicals, other than that they're around Jura's (who endured attacks just like the GoI). The AoE of Hellflame didn't give me the same impression as Natsu's FD Iron Fist.
Yeah, but we cannot know exactly which of the two attacks was actually more powerful though, can we? We can only speculate, assuming the durabilities of the victims of both attacks, the AoE, the destruction of the background and so on... But we cannot measure properly which one was more powerful.
Of course, God Serena might have been using less than his best efforts,
Indeed, something else to take into account!
but I really didn't get that feeling from him.
Yep, you and 70% of this forum's readers will defend that actually GS wasn't that impressive, that the GoI were utter fodders and that Natsu's attacks are seemingly above GS'. I still have some faith GS's attacks are in fact above base Natsu's at the very least.
I'm making assumptions that fire dragon slayer magic presents in a similar way ie flames with AoE that corresponds to a level of power AND that the magic is used in a very similar way. If we also consider Bluenote's durability compared to Jura's, it fits that base Natsu FD fist >= Purgatory Hellflame.
I believe Jura to be around the same level as Bluenote, but the GoI to be slightly superior, by which GS's casual attacks would be superior to base Natsu's serious roar which fodderized Bluenote, but of course, all speculation.
This is my reasoning, rather than assign a hypothetical level to the GoI, I try to use Jura/Bluenote comparisons, along with Fire DS comparisions. We've seen enough of dragon slayer magic in the manga imo to give a reasonable opinion to how it might work.
You're right, but Natsu's flames were city-wrecking from beginning of the series and they might actually even cover more AoE than Serena's casual attacks, while we all know that God Serena is incredibly, enormously, immensely superior to beginning of series Natsu.
I will also note that I don't expect Mashima to plan every panel like he is going to be 100% accurate with AoE or amount of damage or environmental impact etc. I realise that there's going to be inconsistency with feats. But as long as I'm consistent with my view (like you probably are) then it's always going to come down to matter of opinion, unless Mashima flat out shows it on panel.
That's been my reasoning lately. I think we overthink these things and Mashima does not pay much attention to them. In fact I think he'd laugh to death if he read our assumptions and our measuring of his attacks, like, WTF what are these guys doing? hahahaha
I agree. It's one or the other. I still think God Serena can beat Ajeel (he has some advantaged like Wind/Water) and still be on the same tier.
Precisely because of the fact that Ajeel can only use one kind of magic, or two if you take into account dehydration, and God Serena can use a wide variety of magic, particularly 1 in his base mode + 8 in his DS mode, he should potentially be capable of beating many more opponents than Ajeel should. For example, Gajeel's metal body shouldn't be affected by Ajeel's sand, or we may even consider he won't be affected by dehydration, and he's not even a natural counter to Ajeel's magic. While God Serena would most likely wreck base/metal body Gajeel.
I think it's better for the manga if God Serena was actually vastly stronger than Ajeel, like nearly August level.
I think so too, like, there'd be a slight chance to redeem the GoI.
Acno did oneshot GS with an arm swipe, so I don't think there truly is a way to make everything nice and neat, just got to wait for Mashima to do what he wants to do.
Sadly, I don't think he's going to pay attention to such details... I don't think the GoI are going to be important anymore, and GS is sadly dead.
The difference between Irene/August and the GoI is that the best that we could ever say about the GoI is that they were stronger then GMG Jura (the rest is overblown fan made hype) whereas August/Irene are canonically far stronger then the other Spriggan.
I agree to some extent, but the mechanism of the hyping followed by the downplaying would be similar. After all, both the GoI and August/Irene were supposed to be the strongest entities in their respective continents, and look at the difference between them.
Even if Invel showed "better feats" (subjective) then August, by virtue of manga facts August is still a league above Invel (as Makarov stated) and the strongest Spriggan (as Brandish stated).
If people judge by hype or portrayal, then yes! But if people judge by feats, then Invel should be above in that case. And more than 50% judge by feats because they assume feats are all that matters.
No. DiMaria has to think to activate her magic as well.
I just gave my humblest opinion on why Dimaria's thinking should be straight faster than Brandish's
Is this the longest post in this forum? LOL!!!!
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