Discussion New Roles and New Rules Suggestion Thread

GrySun

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Submissions for new roles need to follow the next format in order to be considered:

I. [Place Holder Name]

II. [Affiliation]

III. [Short Description]

IV. [Long Description/Idea/Premise/Scope]

V. [Priority/RoleType/Interactions/other Specifics]

I. Troublemaker

II.
Town

III. Can once per game make a Day phase lynch be the top 2 voted people instead of regular 1 top voted person. Every player has 2 votes but cannot vote the same player twice.

IV. PMs the host on the night before the day he wishes to use his power on. Host announces at start of day that the 2 top voted players will be lynched.
Everyone gets 2 votes that they can use on 2 individual players. Both can be moved once like usual. Example:
!votekill1 PlayerX
!votekill2 PlayerY
!votelock2
(locks on PlayerY).

Any other format is also fine as long as players specify who they are voting and if it's a new vote or they are changing their first one.

V. Doesn't have a Priority, happens at the end of night after all other actions. Doesn't target another player. Primary role.

Since it happens at the end of a phase, the player can be both blocked and killed to prevent it happening.


I. Psychiatrist

II. Townie

III. The Psychiatrist investigates one person per night phase to see if the player has a Secondary Role. They get a "Your target has a secondary role" if that is the case, and a "Your target does not have a secondary role" if it's not. The Psychiatrist does not find out the allegiance of the target.

IV. It's a counter for scum secondaries without outright revealing them, leaving room for guess work and player reading.

V. Priority 2, Primary Role.

Current roles Approved for testing here

Rules on including those in a game:
  • A host can take any of these roles and test them in their game. Depending on results from testing the role it will either be included into the Role list or need more changes/testing.
  • A host at the very least has to announce in the opening post of the game that new roles are being tested, or alternatively even more specifically reveal the roles that are being tested.
Link to the last update post with the roles that are either close to approval or were not approved: here.
 
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gnut

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The GrySun is too strong. Make it so he literally can't win a single mafia game and then I approve it.
Patience padawan:yoda
 

Evil3ye

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Only if Farfalla is always set as one of the three.
 

GrySun

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Was gonna make one for Farfalla, but James already suggested the old cat lady >.>
 

Farfalla

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Ohhhhhh you...

There, you just sank (fuck past forms) in my scale of "how much I like this person". Long fall, you just joined Evil's tier (and let's say its not only in the bible that evil is at the bottom)
 

James Rye

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Alright, here are my final changes to the three roles before I go off and try to find three big-shots who say "yay" or "nay" and then we see how many of those three make it into the game:

Old Cat Lady (Townie):
Night Action - Every night OCL can choose one person who she will observe during the night phase. If her target got killed, she ill get told the role of the killer. The killer gets warned by Host that he was seen. If OCL happens to watch the same killer do another murder at night, she will get told his name.


I made the role stronger by reducing the numbers of people she can watch as well as making it a night action, so that OCL can be an observer who find out first the role of the killer yet the Killer gets told that he was seen, so he can avoid being seen a 2nd time by having his mafia buddies do night kills. This is to force mafia to spread their killer route and not have the same guy do it over and over again, like with Janitor or the LOL game with the mafia boss due unskilled mafia members. Plus with watching only one person the mafia might feel safe enough to still risk doing it a 2nd time and if OCL is lucky she found a mafia to who she has found his mafia role before.
Basically this role is supposed to scare Mafias from having the same strong/convenient guy doing the killing, at least till they find the OCL and kill her. Or they keep doing the same thing but put their killer at risk of being found out.

I think the conditions are fair as OCL can only observe one person and depending on how big the game is and how many killing parties are in it her chances of seeing the same killer twice are low but not impossible. And if she does succeed in that, then congratulations, you found out a mafia member for sure.

Mafia Gambler (Mafia):
Day Action - As long as the Mafia Gambler hasn't voted yet, he can target another player unlocked vote and put his vote against the targets in a 50/50gamble.. If Mafia Gambler wins he can tell Host where to put target's vote while target gets told by Host that his vote was lost in a gamble. If Mafia Gambler loses, the target gets told of the victory and gets the "Gambler" vote and can use it as an extra vote. If the Mafia Gambler loses twice in a row, he loses his role and becomes a normal Mafia member.


Added the condition that the Mafia Gambler can lose his role and become just a normal mafia guy if he loses twice in a row.

Gambler (Townie):
Day Action - As long as the Gambler hasn't voted yet, he can target another player unlocked vote and put his vote against the targets in a gamble in a 50/50 game. If Gambler wins he can tell Host where to put target's vote while target gets told by Host that vote was lost in a gamble. If Gambler loses the target gets told of the victory and gets the "Gambler" vote and can use it as an extra vote.


Still the same as before because I think it fits well. It's a fun role, kinda like politician but with a risk of losing your own vote.

Alright, who are the guys again I gotta write PMs to to accept or deny those roles?^^
 

James Rye

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Hm, maybe I should add that you can do that day action only once per day? Else it sounds like the Gambler/mafia Gambler can gamble till he loses his own vote. Which sounds awesome but could be pretty terrible in case of the gambler/mafia gambler getting lucky and winning like 3-4 times in a row before he loses. <.<
 

Evil3ye

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Ohhhhhh you...

There, you just sank (fuck past forms) in my scale of "how much I like this person". Long fall, you just joined Evil's tier (and let's say its not only in the bible that evil is at the bottom)
OH NO, SHE DIDNT... another gay joke, how original.


@James Rye both Gambler descriptions are very confusing. But first before you fix anything, I'd like to ask what you intend these roles to be, and what kind of impact are you seeing those roles to have on the game. What is the extra value for game, if those were included?
 

James Rye

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OH NO, SHE DIDNT... another gay joke, how original.


@James Rye both Gambler descriptions are very confusing. But first before you fix anything, I'd like to ask what you intend these roles to be, and what kind of impact are you seeing those roles to have on the game. What is the extra value for game, if those were included?
They are so confusing because of the restrictions I have put on them.
The original Idea was to give the Mafia a "politician"-like role, but since a real politician in the mafia would be a bit too strong as that would mean regular numbers of mafia +1 extra vote, I wanted to make that role a risky politician, one that can easily be found out if you look at the right clues, thus the roles feeling complicated. And after making the Mafia Gambler, I thought that this role sounds fun for a townie role as well. Especially since the Townie gambler could be found out by the mafia in a similar way if the mafia looks closely at the clues available, so the gambler would have to play smart to keep his role hidden. Like when he loses, what excuse will he give as to why he hasn't voted today? Or when he wins, to who will he put the Gambler vote as both roles, mafia and townie, have gambler vote when winning a gamble the townies could think that the role to which the vote was added to might surely be townie then. And so on.

The Impact I see depends on whenever Gamblers can only do their day action once per day or several times as well as how the non-gamblers react to a gambler being in the game. For the Gamblers themselves if they can do their action only once then they are basically risky politician who risk their own vote to get a second one, if several times they are risky politicans who got the chance to change several won votes to their liking till they themselves loses of they say that's enough or till they reached the number they are allowed to bet per day. If several gambles are allowed then the Gambler would have to been changed a bit, aka that he won't lose his own vote but just gives away Gambler votes to other players which would make him a vote giver ressource as if he loses like three times three or one/two other players would ahve three extra votes all added as Gambler. Maybe only the Townie Gambler will be like this, could be more interesting.
So far I went with the only once per day as it is a bit simpler.
As for townies if your own vote is at risk to be put away by a gambler due it not being locked yet then people might either lock it immediately or wait in a big crowd till the gambler has found his victim or lost the match himself and they can vote safely without the risk of being challenged.

The main Idea behind the Gambler was to have the Mafia have a vote-changing character but one that has enough restrictions and weaknesses added to it (can only challenge people with non-locked votes, loses his own vote if he loses the gamble, loses his role if he loses twice in a row and becomes normal mafia member) that it won't be OP for the Mafia to have, but a risky business which they might wanna use early on to scare the townies and make them guess that one of the afk players might be gambler/mafia gambler and keep their mafia gambler alive till the very end when it gets close to the votes and it would become reaaaaally useful if they could add just one vote of the townies to their liking.

As for Old Cat lady, she was once to be seen as a weaker spy/weaker det hybrid. I changed that after Haku's critics and made her a through-out observer who doesn't protect nor investigate, just observe and she can only observe victims, meaning if she happened to watch the killer himself at night, she would get nothing out of it. basically she is supposed to be the eye witness in a murder case in the middle of the night and her role would be to scare the Mafia in using the same guy over and over again because she has the ability to find out the name of the murderer if she watches him doing the killing twice. Kinda like those old lady detectives in TV. So she either finds out the roles of the Mafia, which isn't so strong as Janitor or Escort are easy to find out roles for anyone in the game, or she can find a killer but the moment she comes out, the Mafia will likely kill her to prevent her finding out more roles and names.

Detectives can find out mafias easily once they know their sanity simply by investigating their target. The Old Cat Lady can only find out something truly useful if she watches the victim of the killing party. To make up for that weakness she finds out the name if she happens to come across the same murderer twice, so for a 3rd party killer on his own she is a nightmare and might even be able to stop the extra killing or a night till the 3rd party knows who the OCL might be to kill her himself. Since the killer gets warned by the Host that he was seen, he will be on the lookout. Dets and Docs are always good roles to kill though till they know their sanity they are a manageable risk. Yet a OCL is different as she already knows one of the roles the mafia got for sure and if that same guy happens to get been seen again, he's as good as lynched, that is ofc if the townies believe the OCL.

Well, this is pretty much behind those three roles. Really hope the Mafia role makes it through, so far I got a townie and third role in, but no mafia role yet.
 

Evil3ye

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My understanding and concern is that a Gambler role is pretty easy to varify. Giving a shoutout, then letting the town observe if the prediction comes true or if he gets a vote on himself?

The idea of having a counterpart in the Mafia to a Politician is great, which also tackles the solely townie-aligence of this role, but I think the transfer you tried to make there doesn't quite make it. For one, the Politician cannot change locked votes either, so this is not a tweak at all. The other is this second drawback with the lost own vote seems very strange to me. I would suggest gambling for something else instead. Perhaps the killing power.

Then I don't really understand why the counterpart needs an other counterpart. I would abstain from adding reduntant roles, that add such a high level of complexity such as day actions (and especially those that include third parties i.e other players).

Cat Lady: I thought it was a neat idea initially, but you keep changing and changing it and I'm having second thoughts. I don't like the latests two version at all. Maybe concentrate on the initial idea, develope it in a way that it's not a second spy, but that it has some extra value to it. Maybe setting the players at the beginning of the game is something to reconsider. Think of a real life Cat lady, living in a little flat in an appartment house, no job, no husband and kids, lots of time on the hands. From this appartment block she can see certain people and what they do... don't know, brainstorm in that direction. Set it apart from the spy
 

James Rye

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Hm, you're right. Maybe the Townie Gambler will never lose his own vote. He basically loses just "Gambler Votes" and wins other people votes, but if he loses twice in a row he loses his role. Like he can gamble three time per day so he could lose his role on the very first day if he is so risky to gamble a 2nd time after his first lose.

The Mafia Townie giving away his killing power for the night might be too strong, but it is true that he would be too easily found out if he can't vote due losing his own vote. Maybe the townie could win something else, like "immunity for the next night phase". If that townie the gambler gambled against was a det or doc then that would suck but immunity for just one night might be a good risk if it means that the gambler gains a 2nd or more votes. Yeah, I think Immunity for the night is good that way the Gambler won't be too strong at the end game as he might take away valuable targets on the townie side by giving them immunity. And him losing his role might thus be an acceptable lose though he would be useful if he keeps winning votes at the end of the game or just in the middle to cause confusion.

True, I liked the first Old Cat Lady version the most...
Hm, maybe if I add a set number of people like 3 for small games (less than 12), 5 for middle (less than 22)and 7 for big games (anything bigger than 22). And that she keeps watching them each night and gets informed of one random person similar to the barkeeper but with the addition that ofc a murder (and thus police coming, etc) would catch her attention more than that, so she does find out the role of the killer at the first murder at the cost of losing one of her constant targets. Yeah, that could be fun, like the OCL collecting info about those 3/5/7 people but not knowing to who adapt to what. Like she knows somebody was active but not who or that somebody was blocked but not who by who or that somebody is a lover or that somebody of her targets is a 3rd party/mafia, etc. The barkeeper got the ability to make people drunk as one of his random actions so that their target changes if they got a night action (still waiting for a mafia to get drunk by Barkeeper and then ending up killing somebody else xD Or does that not work due the priorities?) and the OCL got the ability to collect reliable random information about her "neighborhood".

Yeah, I gonna think in that direction and change the role in some time. Thanks, Evil3ye.^^
 

Riku

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My understanding and concern is that a Gambler role is pretty easy to varify. Giving a shoutout, then letting the town observe if the prediction comes true or if he gets a vote on himself?

The idea of having a counterpart in the Mafia to a Politician is great, which also tackles the solely townie-aligence of this role, but I think the transfer you tried to make there doesn't quite make it. For one, the Politician cannot change locked votes either, so this is not a tweak at all. The other is this second drawback with the lost own vote seems very strange to me. I would suggest gambling for something else instead. Perhaps the killing power.

Then I don't really understand why the counterpart needs an other counterpart. I would abstain from adding reduntant roles, that add such a high level of complexity such as day actions (and especially those that include third parties i.e other players).

Cat Lady: I thought it was a neat idea initially, but you keep changing and changing it and I'm having second thoughts. I don't like the latests two version at all. Maybe concentrate on the initial idea, develope it in a way that it's not a second spy, but that it has some extra value to it. Maybe setting the players at the beginning of the game is something to reconsider. Think of a real life Cat lady, living in a little flat in an appartment house, no job, no husband and kids, lots of time on the hands. From this appartment block she can see certain people and what they do... don't know, brainstorm in that direction. Set it apart from the spy
I think you misunderstood. If the gambler loses the gamble, the one he gambled gets a extra vote to use by PM from host. Not a vote on the gambler himself. That's a bit problematic though, since then the mafia gambler should just keep his power to the last hour of the day, so the extra vote goes unused.
I also like the idea of mafia counterpart to politician. Maybe a more severe drawback? Like if you lose twice in a row, you become unskilled mafia member? No need for town gambler imho. Some details to be cleared, and I think this role is good to go.

Also, Cat Lady seems now just like a spy. Not into it.
 

James Rye

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True, I guess Gambler Townie is really unneeded due the politician role. Unskilled mafia member is a good idea. Cat Lady seems more like a Barkeeper with a "patronage" than a spy to me. At least with the set numbers and such.
 

xi0

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I think we need to talk about the Politician a bit, or else it should deserve the Hypnotist treatment IMO.

First off, there needs to be some sort of rule regarding how late in a phase a Politician can send their PM to make someone change their vote. As an example, if it wasn't for the phase getting extended in the last game, I wouldn't have gotten an opportunity to change my vote. What then? Does the Politician fail? Would I still have been penalized?

Secondly, I don't see a clear rule regarding the procedure when a Politician chooses someone who has already locked their vote. Does the person get to change their vote again? Are they penalized? If so, doesn't this make the role too OP, as targeting someone with a locked vote auto-fucks them next phase with three penalty votes?

What exactly does "associating himself with the Politician" mean? Implications can be made, but isn't that still associating? Can something be said by the target of the Politician other than "no comment" or not answering and it not be considered "association"?
 

xi0

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I don't really know, I was appealing to James, since he introduced the role to the game. That's sort of why I alluded to the "Hypnotist treatment". There's too many issues with it IMO.
 

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What exactly does "associating himself with the Politician" mean? Implications can be made, but isn't that still associating? Can something be said by the target of the Politician other than "no comment" or not answering and it not be considered "association"?
I guess it's the very basic "I changed my vote because of the Politician" sort of thing. Otherwise, it becomes just too blurry. If someone changes my vote as a Politician, I could say "No idea, I suddenly felt like changing my vote" and 99% of the other players would get Politician used his ability.
Other than that, I don't know why association with Politician is prohibited in the first place.
 

James Rye

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I don't really know, I was appealing to James, since he introduced the role to the game. That's sort of why I alluded to the "Hypnotist treatment". There's too many issues with it IMO.
I introduced the politician? I thought the only roles of my two dozens which made it so far were the barkeeper and the Santa.

Anyway, changed OCL and Mafia Gambler, Townie Gambler got cut out:

Old Cat Lady (Townie):
Neighborhood Gossip - At the start of the game OCL chooses on the game sized based number of people (3/5/7) who will be her neighborhood where she keeps an eye and ear open. Each night she will get told a random role/action done by her neighborhood without clarification who got it or done it by the Host. However if one of her neighbors got killed, she ill get told the role of the killer. The killer gets warned by Host that he was seen. If OCL happens to watch the same killer do another murder in her neighborhood, she will get told his name.


Basically a weaker Barkeeper due a set and much larger number of targets from the start but more investigative due finding out role and name of the killer if he does so twice in her neighborhood. than blocking like the Barkeeper who can change your target by making you drunk. Maybe she is a role that should only be used in medium, big and really big games with 5,7,9 people as neighborhood.

Mafia Gambler (Mafia):
Day Action - As long as the Mafia Gambler hasn't voted yet, he can for once target another player unlocked vote to gamble on it in a 50/50 bet. Against the target's vote the Mafia Gambler wagers a "Night immunity" which only works for the next phase. If Mafia Gambler wins he can tell Host where to put target's vote while target gets told by Host that his vote was lost in a gamble. If Mafia Gambler loses, the target gets told of the victory and gets the "Night Immunity" and cannot be killed and blocked that night. If the Mafia Gambler loses twice in a row, he loses his role and becomes an unskilled Mafia member.


Added the idea about unskilled Mafia Member and took away that the Gambler vote win for the target and put in instead the "Night immunity" (as I think it would be too hard for the mafia to lose their killing right for the night phase as a whole) and made it that Night immunity makes the target invulnerable against kills and cannot be blocked either. Ofc he could still get poisoned as that wouldn't count as a direct kill, right? ;P
Also the mafia won't get told that that townie won that immunity so the Mafia Gambler himself has to warn his buddies that one of the townies became basically bulletproof and unblockable due his lost bet. That way an in the night inactive Mafia Gambler could really fuck things up for his buddies if he is not there to tell them about who they really shouldn't target this night to kill.^^
I wonder if it is best to keep that gambling on only once per day or like twice or thrice per day with a price like this. I think once is plenty enough already, what do you guys think?

And is the Mafia Gambler finally worthy enough to enter the ranks of the Mafia roles? I think it looks great but well, I am not a veteran host.^^
 

Farfalla

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It's not weaker 'cause in a second mafia/SK kill you get to know the culprit's name '-'" Not even dets find things out that fast.
And I personally don't like the Barkeeper ;-; too random.

About the Mafia Gambler, it looks like the player has more to lose with his gamble than to earn. If he wins, he just gets an to vouche on a vote. But if he loses, he's heavily implicating his own team.
 
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