Discussion Joker vs Luffy Fight Assessment/ Cracker vs Luffy Fight Assessment

[Fuuji Genichiro]

You contradict yourself when you imply all DFs = character strength when Oda says otherwise.

I didn't imply that. You just refuse to understand your opponent

 

[Enima]

Given his character and his ability , it's pretty logical to assume that Urogue's style of fighting involves trading direct physical blows. Close combat brawling if you may. I mean, it's pretty safe to assume that he prefer's tanking damage. Also, even if it only increases his strength. His raw strength wasn't able to break even one of cracker's soldiers. If his raw strength at it's highest possible (with his ability) isn't able to break one, then it's safe to say he just wasn't a match in the first place.

The boost doesn't last forever, by the time he face Cracker his strength should've been back to normal.

As for law, i do have this theory that using haki (Arnament to prevent, but also observation to anticipate) you can prevent him from teleporting you (speculation, but still, law shouldn't be that overpowered should he). Remember that law isn't really as strong as luffy is. At least in terms of raw power he shouldn't be matching up against cracker very well.

Yeah, but I still don't think Cracker is that strong when it comes to Haki. Law doesn't need to break any of the Biscuit soldiers he could teleport Cracker from inside the biscuit soldier and then kill him.

Guarantee you, it doesn't require stamina.

He says so and implies it too. He said he can produce an infinite amount just by clapping. Clapping doesn't take stamina.

Spoiler

This is why he says his power is literally infinite.

Spoiler

He just claps them back into existence once defeated.

Spoiler

He proved his ability is literally infinite as Nami stated, that was a fact. The only time he expends stamina is when he "with his physical body" attacks Luffy which is why Luffy says his stamina is finite. His ability may be infinite since it doesn't require stamina, but his physical stamina isn't as chasing someone for 11 hours and attacking them does drain one's stamina.

Joker's ability was not that different from Cracker's. As long as he's conscious, his ability works and takes no stamina. If something releid on stamina, it will get weaker over time; Law's ability got weaker as his stamina got drained; Joker's Birdcage never did, it remained impossible to push back despite the fact he was tired and injured. Ability users like Cracker or Joker have really overpowered abilities.

Cracker's ability is indeed one of the most powerful, there's a reason he has never been seen and a reason he said all he has to do is manipulate it which is why his ability power is infinitely powerful.

Spoiler

If his ability required stamina, he'd have been eating biscuits too like Luffy or doing similar. Luffy's ability is one of the very few that require the stamina (amongst many other things) of the user besides Law's and a few others.

That sounds convincing. But he might be Implying that it takes really low amount of stamina to maintain his soldiers. He might be saying that, because compared to normal fighting this consumes much less stamina.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That sounds convincing. But he might be Implying that it takes really low amount of stamina to maintain his soldiers. He might be saying that, because compared to normal fighting this consumes much less stamina.

It's not implied that it takes low stamina, whether or not, even if it did, it's negligible. All it takes is a clap and the biscuits clones are there. If it took stamina too, he'd have needed to eat to retain stamina, the biscuits would have been getting weaker as time went on, he'd have been able to make less clones as time went on; nothing of that nature happened because his ability literally utilises no stamina which is why he said his power is infinite (as Nami also realised), but Luffy said even though his ability is infinitely powerful, his physical stamina isn't.

The ability is simply overpowered. The series of disadvantages Luffy was fighting against truly shows how powerful he's become, but it goes unnoticed.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 3, 2017 ---

I didn't imply that. You just refuse to understand your opponent

Lol, you're not my opponent mate.

You said as long as the ability is part of the user, it is characteristic and equating into their strength. Hell, I can quote you.

His is ability IS his strength. It's his power. It belongs to him and is under his control.

It seems you misunderstand it all unfortunately.

He might control it, but it doesn't mean its qualities reflects his own strength. The strings of Joker aren't indestructible because Joker is indestructible; Perona's ability doesn't incapacitate anyone (but Usopp) because her physical strength can do that, it just does so because that's how the ability works.

You don't grasp intrinsic power, at one point you tried to make out that extrinsic and intrinsic were the same, lol.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

You said as long as the ability is part of the user, it is characteristic and equating into their strength.

Ok let's see more of your quote mining.

It seems you misunderstand it all unfortunately.

He might control it, but it doesn't mean its qualities reflects his own strength.

So quote mining, followed up with yet another recycled strawman.

TLDR "It" is a part of the character, biologically (Which it still is) or not. Thus the characteristic of the ability becomes intrinsic to what defines the character. If the ability is powerful, it means the character is powerful, because the ability is a part of the character.

Strength is not a purely biological concept. Strength refers to the magnitude of a force in it's purest definition. Within the context of One piece that force is fighting power because the context we are using is related to fighting. So when i say ability is strength, i'm not saying it's the total strength of the character in the same way me talking about the strength of Luff'y arm says nothing about his legs.

The strings of Joker aren't indestructible because Joker is indestructible;

The strings of Joker are indestructible, the body isn't. Why do they have to be conflated? Because this conflation would also be inconsistent for your argument.

Are your eyeballs as tough as the bones in your legs? Is zorro's skin as strong as his swords? Are sanji's hands as tough as his legs. Generally speaking, for any entity, the whole is defined by it's parts in conjunction.
So while joker's strings are 'indestructible' and his body isn't as tough, both (and Haki) still contribute to form "defense".

Likewise Luffy hardens his entire body by pumping air inside him. He then get's the bonus of being elastic to the point where he can absorb most physical damage. I don't see how you can justify disregarding doffy's ability as his strength before using GEAR 4TH as evidence of luffy being stronger. It's base Luffy vs Base doffy or GTFO. And there's nothing (nothing) showing that base luffy is in any way stronger than base doffy.

Perona's ability doesn't incapacitate anyone (but Usopp) because her physical strength can do that

Perona's ability isn't physical. Stop being an idiot.

You don't grasp intrinsic power

Your level of English isn't good enough to understand the nuance of context vs definition. Strength isn't defined as being intrinsic, it's defined as the magnitude of a resultant effect. That effect can be catalyzed (or inhibited) by external influence without compromising the definition of the word. I don't care about what you define as being intrinsic (even though i disagree with the idea of using a strictly biological context to define a character but that's an entirely different argument) . It has no bearing on the objective analysis of the output

at one point you tried to make out that extrinsic and intrinsic were the same

When did i ever attempt to conflate the meaning of both words. I suspect you are referring to when i said that biologically extrinsic components are still intrinsic (not biologically, but as a to the concept of a character. Meaning your argument isn't a refutation to mine regardless of whether your argument is true or not.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 4, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 4, 2017 ---

But you know, as i said, nobody is arguing that doflamingo's string's imply that he is physically more powerful than luffy. People are arguing that it means he has more fighting strength. Why you think imposing a context that's completely ignorant of the context in which you attempt to apply it is in any way rational or logical is beyond me. Especially when the very idea that Luffy's Base is physical stronger is dubious at best. But even worse than that, you attempted to compare Base Doflamingo with Gear 4th luffy as a "fair" comparison and you don't recognize the double standard? Then you posit an argument that would imply that if luffy had eaten Akainu's devil fruit, he would have been able to defeat Prime ace in that 10 year old state or create a Birdcage that could stop an Admiral, better yet, defeat an entire Colosseum of Gladiators.

This is just bias towards luffy in an attempt to make him seem stronger than he actually is. Just admit that he's still under powered (which is why he invented gear4th) and will get stronger in the same way he did before. Don't try to redefine or re-contextualize strength to justify his weakness. It doesn't change the fact that another cracker level opponent can easily kick his ass whether that person would rely on a devil fruit or not. Stop trying to undermine results, strength is defined by the output, not the input.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 4, 2017 ---

Yeah, but I still don't think Cracker is that strong when it comes to Haki. Law doesn't need to break any of the Biscuit soldiers he could teleport Cracker from inside the biscuit soldier and then kill him.

Man i seriously doubt that, unless you suggest he gamma knife him, but if law was that overpowered i think he's stand a better chance against doflamingo.

The boost doesn't last forever

I mean we don't really know that do we?
And how do we know that cracker wasn't on hand right after the first general was down.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

"It" is a part of the character, biologically (Which it still is) or not. Thus the characteristic of the ability becomes intrinsic to what defines the character. If the ability is powerful, it means the character is powerful, because the ability is a part of the character.

Not according to Oda pal.

Otherwise, why would he state not necessarily equating to character strength.

There's clear disagreement on what you say and what the Manga states, lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 4, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 4, 2017 ---

Perona's ability isn't physical. Stop being an idiot.

Lol, children will be children, always resorting to being rude.

When did I even state it was physical? Should calm down champ.

Point is despite the fact that it's her ability, and she defeated the entire SH crew, it's not characteristic of her strength, but of her ability which is extrinsic.

It's like saying because you're sat in a car and beat Usain Bolt over a 100 meter dash, because I'm in it, it's characteristic of my speed. No buddy. Crying or throwing such Bigmomesque tantrums about such absurd logic wouldn't make it anymore accurate.

What you logical fallacy which is pretty illogical ironically fails to comprehend is, if ability was characteristic of a character's strength, it would be the case all the time without exception. It's okay though, people have their limits.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Not according to Oda pal.

Otherwise, why would he state not necessarily equating to character strength.

There's clear disagreement on what you say and what the Manga states, lol.

You keep saying not according to Oda but all Oda said was:

"Also, a superior ability does not necessarily equate to the character's strength. No ability alone guarantees victory in combat."

That statement is not saying DF power is not a part of strength. All it is saying is that DF power is not necessarily equal to strength. Those two statements are not the same. If this is the only evidence you can offer then of course you're wrong.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

Not according to Oda pal.

Otherwise, why would he state not necessarily equating to character strength.

Context. Between two characters (example being ace and akainu), the person with a superior devil fruit isn't automatically stronger. This is where the mathematical analogy applies. It's very simple.

I mean, the logic is very simple. Either you think Akainu beating Ace was an implication of him being a stronger character, or you think any weak character with the lava ability could defeat ace.

And again, this is still dysfunctional thinking, as in an action anime, the very concept of strength exists purely as a measure of fighting ability. To imply that someone who can fight on par with an admiral is weaker than luffy is stupid. It makes the very concept of strength an irrelevant comparison.

There's clear disagreement on what you say and what the Manga states

Like Spandam saying "Get stronger"?
No, it's either Oda contradicts himself, or you simply misinterpreted. I'm betting on the latter.

When did I even state it was physical?

It's one thing to compare the physical strength of doffy's strings to his physical body. If Perona's ability isn't physical, then why the hell is it brought up? How does perona hit someone with her ability? How does she cut them? How does she do damage?
There is no physical power behind her ability of any kind. Stop using this strawman.

It's like saying because you're sat in a car and beat Usain Bolt over a 100 meter dash, because I'm in it, it's characteristic of my speed.

The speed of you and your car combined is faster than the running speed of Usain bolt likewise there might be other cars and you may or may not be faster than them as well.
Difference in OP is that you don't drive the car, you literally are the car. Akainu would be saying "I am a nascar, you are a bicycle". You aren't seperate from your car. Luffy isn't separate from the fact that his body is made up of rubber. Unless you can show me the interview where oda says "luffy isn't actually made of rubber" then you are categorically wrong on every aspect. Because if the properties of the devil fruit can't be classified as the properties of the user, then that directly implies that luffy isn't made of rubber
Unless you can prove to me that oda thinks luffy isn't made of rubber, you are simply wrong.

It's baffling how such simplistic logic evades you so consistently. Your argument is not only impractical, but the very logic and evidence you think you have are inconsistent and fallacious, and everyone else but you is aware of that.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 5, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 5, 2017 ---

In b4 he rehashes the same quote mined oda statement.

"Abilities alone don't guarantee victory"
Tell me what you think he mean't by that. Just read the statement and make a basic interpretation of what oda means, and relate it to the previous sentence.
Don't arbitrarily presume the context of what oda means when he gives his context in the next sentence. Make me think you were just in denial and not logically defunct.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The speed of you and your car combined is faster than the running speed of Usain bolt likewise there might be other cars and you may or may not be faster than them as well.

The speed of you and your car? First of all, the person's speed has no influence on the car, so good one genius, lol.

It's the car's speed at play and it's not "characteristic" of that individual's speed. It's characteristic of the car's speed.

It's not like the car would move faster if Usain Bolt is in the car as opposed to Hamilton.

You're not showing much intelligence, logic is severely lacking lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 5, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 5, 2017 ---

"Abilities alone don't guarantee victory"

Victory is not the issue, characteristic of strength is the topic. You can't even stick to topic, lol.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

The speed of you and your car? First of all, the person's speed has no influence on the car,

Stop you there, i didn't imply that, and it's an irrelevancy. "Man and the car" refers the combined unit, i'm not talking about them as separate entities. If the speed of that entity is reliant exclusively on the car component, it doesn't change the fact that the output of the unit is greater than bolts running speed.

Let's not go out on tangents here.

It's the car's speed at play

Yes but that doesn't in any way change my point.

it's not "characteristic" of that individual's speed

The fork in the road. The difference between your analogy and the context of OP, explained by me:

Difference in OP is that you don't drive the car, you literally are the car. Akainu would be saying "I am a nascar, you are a bicycle". You aren't seperate from your car. Luffy isn't separate from the fact that his body is made up of rubber. Unless you can show me the interview where oda says "luffy isn't actually made of rubber" then you are categorically wrong

And you ignored that point, presumably because you have no response. You are categorically wrong.

It's not like the car would move faster if Usain Bolt is in the car as opposed to Hamilton.

Well Bolt isn't a very good driver so he might be slower, but disregarding that, it does not refute my point. If bolt had a car he would have that speed.

As for whether even that applies to OP, refer to the point about Usopp killing ace and creating a birdcage.

Victory is not the issue, characteristic of strength is the topic. You can't even stick to topic, lol.

Then why the fuck would oda bring it up? I'm using your quote of oda, in the sentence directly after your favorite quotable which happens to be the last sentence in his statement. Are you suggesting to me that Oda made a complete , self explanatory(which according to you, it isn't because in your own fucking words, "it begs a few questions") stand alone statement ,then ended it with an irrelevant, off topic and thematically inconsistent sentence after it. Or is it a part of the context you ignore, because it contradicts your interpretation.

Victory is being related to superiority. You are the only person who's read that statement and interpreted otherwise. Either everyone else but you is wrong, and oda is shit at writing simple ,self explanatory and coherent answers or you are simply wrong. So don't give me bullshit about your own evidence being off topic. Nobody is buying into your quote mining, i have no idea why you still bring it up.

It's almost funny how i can refute you using your own quotes and snippets. And then you have the temerity to call me illogical. You are logically defunct. An idiot. And your inability to add 1+1 just offends me when you presumptuously attempt to argue with me.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

i'm not talking about them as separate entities

It said characteristic of their strength, therefore, it's not talking about them with ability, but without. Ability doesn't equate or showcase strength anymore than car is characteristic of anyone's strength.

Well Bolt isn't a very good driver so he might be slower, but disregarding that, it does not refute my point. If bolt had a car he would have that speed.

Lol, clowning at its finest. A car isn't characteristic of anyone's speed no matter how good one is at driving it, that's skill, not speed.

It's one thing to compare the physical strength of doffy's strings to his physical body. If Perona's ability isn't physical, then why the hell is it brought up?

It's a Devil fruit jnr genius.

Like I said, it's not characteristic of strength.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

It said characteristic of their strength, therefore, it's not talking about them with ability, but without

Stop you there. Oda said "Character strength". He was referring to the character as a whole. Show me the interview where oda says luffy isn't made of rubber, otherwise you can't separate the character from the ability.

Lol, clowning at its finest. A car isn't characteristic of anyone's speed no matter how good one is at driving it

Yeah you missed the point again. Even if the man was disabled, the car will beat usain bolt in a race. Now nobody is arguing that the disabled man would win a footrace, but in his car he has superiority. That's literally the only important part. Because in OP, luffy isn't separate from his existence as a rubberman. You know, "I AM lava", not "I have lava".

It's a Devil fruit jnr genius.

Well shit, i mean fuck nuance right? There's no meaningful difference between doflamingo, Perona, Enel , Lucci, or Luffy himself is there. In which case, gear 4th isn't really luffy's true power. It's a significant powerup. Unless you can show me how base luffy is stronger than base Doffy (good luck, we have surviving gear 4th with damaged organs, vs a few kicks from sanji knocking luffy out). Then i can say "without his gears" luffy can't beat Chinjao, and you'd literally have no rebuttal to that.

Because it's true.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Stop you there. Oda said "Character strength". He was referring to the character as a whole. Show me the interview where oda says luffy isn't made of rubber, otherwise you can't separate the character from the ability.

Yet he said, ability does not necessarily equate into character strength meaning ability is not inclusive in determining this, lol.

Even if the man was disabled, the car will beat usain bolt in a race.

The point is no matter what he does in the car, it doesn't equate into the man's speed (but the car's) while Usain Bolt running equates into his speed, lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2017 ---

It's a significant powerup. Unless you can show me how base luffy is stronger than base Doffy

Lol, who said he was? If anything, they look evenly matched.

 

[XXGenesis]

Won't get into the semantics going on above...it's hard to disagree with the wise Hannibal Pysche.,,

But Cracker IMO isn't that strong as a Sweet Commander....I believe his primary Strentgh is his DF ability, & Haki which was good enough to fit G4 Luffy..,.other Than that, it doesn't take a heavy attack to K.O his real body...He's a glass cannon of you ask me....So yea Luffy's main issue with him would be the infinite soldiers....But his ability can be nerf'd once near to water or liquid

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

Yet he said, ability does not necessarily equate into character strength meaning ability is not inclusive in determining this, lol.

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
"Necessarily" as a term has nothing to do with inclusion. The word deals with conditionality. For example, anatomically, males are physically stronger than women. That said, being a man (as opposed to a woman) doesn't necessarily make me stronger . Now i am stronger than my girlfriend, who does sports (i don't). Are you suggesting that me stronger than my girlfriend has nothing to do with the fact that i'm male? No idiot, not necessarily simply implies that there are other factors at play that determine the result, which is why i am in fact weaker than some of my GF's female friends. That's why oda said "Ability alone does not guarantee victory". It puts it into perspective.

Secondly. Before you make an argument, make sure that it doesn't contradict your other points. Because if we are to disregard luffy's gears, then show me how he doesn't get owned by Chinjao or even Zorro.

The point is no matter what he does in the car, it doesn't equate into the man's speed (but the car's) while Usain Bolt running equates into his speed, lol.

It doesn't necessarily equate, according to oda.
Because you can either have a shit car, or someone unable to drive. Even if the person isn't running faster, they are travelling faster, and that's literally all that matters, because strength by definition is measured on OUTPUT, not INPUT.

Lol, who said he was? If anything, they look evenly matched.

Wait let me check something you posted earlier

If not for such a convenient power and this fight was a straight up brawl like it was with Gear 2nd at the later stages, this fight wouldn't have lasted long.

So what exactly was your argument, because if we aren't counting the gears as a part of luffy's power(which you have tried to do before), then how is he not weaker than zorro. That guy with the strength and haki to cleanly slice a mountain sized giant like ripe fruit.

If we are going by base durability for argument sake. Surviving being hit halfway through a country then taking a few more direct hits from gear 4th while having damaged internal organs strikes me as being at least slightly above luffy's level. Doflamingo's base is stronger than luffy's. I think with devil fruits, both fighters as a whole become evenly matched, but that's down to G4 being slightly overpowered.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Also, he said, not necessarily which inherently means DF power is not always characteristic of strength.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 15, 2017 ---

It doesn't necessarily equate, according to oda.
Because you can either have a shit car, or someone unable to drive. Even if the person isn't running faster, they are travelling faster, and that's literally all that matters, because strength by definition is measured on OUTPUT, not INPUT.

Nonetheless is't characteristic of their speed. Characteristic is intrinsic, lol. A car is not characteristic of a character's strength or speed which is why the concept of "cheating" exists "dude".

It... would...be like... saying a car crashing into a wall or house is characteristic of the driver's strength... no, it's characteristic of the car's strength. If the driver crashed into a wall/house, he/she would be paralysed from injury, severely injured and probably have done little to no damage on the wall/house.

Just common sense.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

Also, he said, not necessarily which inherently means DF power is not always characteristic of strength.

Again, this is you tweaking the definition of what he said outside of it's literal meaning.
Going back to an earlier point, "superior ability" is comparative, therefore, "strength" is also comparative. It's nothing to do with being characteristic. It simply means that having a stronger ability doesn't always make you stronger (like the example i gave earlier), it isn't that there are instances where it is or isn't characteristic. Me being a man will always be a factor in comparing my strength to a woman. It just doesn't guarantee superiority.

Damn, that's a flawless mathematical analogy and now a flawless gender analogy. It's so easy to explain and understand this without begging any questions and arbitrarily answering them.

Nonetheless is't characteristic of their speed.

The car and the man combine to form an entity. You might wan't to separate the man from the cr for comparison, but again, unless you can show me how luffy is separate from being rubber (which is a direct contradiction of terms btw, you can't be separate from what you are), then the man can't be separate from the car. The character represents the entity as a whole, thus the speed of the car is indeed characteristic of the entity.

Likewise, the strength of your arm isn't characteristic of the strength in your legs, but it is characteristic of your strength.
It's a part of you, a combination if you may.

It's really simple.]

It... would...be like... saying a car crashing into a wall or house is characteristic of the driver's strength

No that's a strawman that you've perpetuated for about 7 pages now. It's characteristic of the force of the entity. Even if the physical capabilities are entirely dependent on one, and the mental capabilities on the other (think of a cyborg) it's still character strength as far as one piece is concerned. That C word zorro used to describe kuma.

If the driver crashed into a wall/house

If Luffy didn't have gears

he/she would be paralysed from injury, severely injured and probably have done little to no damage on the wall/house.

He would lose to Chinjao. Therefore luffy is weaker than chinjao???

I mean, Chinjao needed help to defend against one punch from pica. Zorro cut the whole statue in half with one slice. So put into perspective how far above base Luffy Zorro is.

Or would be if your argument had any merit.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Again, this is you tweaking the definition of what he said outside of it's literal meaning.

False, lol.

He simply said ability does not necessarily equate into character strength; you say the opposite.

You're wrong, lol.

It's nothing to do with being characteristic

Yet he says does not equate into character strength, good lol? It is characteristic because it's about the character's intrinsic qualities.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

He simply said ability does not necessarily equate into character strength; you say the opposite.

Stop lying and going in circles. Just admit you were wrong. Unless you really are very bad at english, and don't know what words mean or how to use context, etc. You aren't really bringing anything new, just recycling the same nonsense without even trying to touch my refutations. My points all stand.

Yet he says does not equate into character strength

Wait what?

not necessarily

See this is you doing it again. And rehashing an already refuted point.

Going back to an earlier point, "superior ability" is comparative, therefore, "strength" is also comparative. It's nothing to do with being characteristic. It simply means that having a stronger ability doesn't always make you stronger (like the example i gave earlier), it isn't that there are instances where it is or isn't characteristic. Me being a man will always be a factor in comparing my strength to a woman. It just doesn't guarantee superiority.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Stop lying and going in circles. Just admit you were wrong.

But it is you who is wrong, and are lying and going in circles, lol.

Oda has said abilities do not necessarily equate into character strength; you say otherwise, therefore, you're wrong buddy. This is a fact, you can't accept it so you conjure what you want to believe and think it as fact.

It's not going in circle if it's a fact, it's like arguing that there aren't 24 hours in a day when it's been established there are 24 hours in a full day.

Your loss.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 15, 2017 ---

Credit: Sandman_A{
Source:
Ace was fighting Vice-Admiral Draw who is somewhat immune to fire, as a result, Ace begun to utilise Haki. He even mentions how Ace gets stronger with each fight

I'm glad Oda is releasing these titbits of information. We see Deuce stating that Ace is strong without his Mera Mera no Mi, exactly what Van Augur was alluding to. Van Augur said take away a DF user's power and they become weak because they have to rely on their basic fighting qualities (more or less, their physical intrinsic strength). Ace couldn't use his Mera Mera no Mi against Vice-Admiral Draw, and he won with his sheer power.

Anyone can posses a powerful ability, only very few can be strong without it. It's just goes to show that among the power, their abilities are complementary to their true strength, not that it is their true strength which is often thought of in the inverted way.

On a side note, we finally, we also know that if Ace wanted to defeat Smoker there and then, he could have. He just chose to stall, meet with Luffy and get on with his hunt for Blackbeard

 

[M3J]

Still a fact that Luffy alone couldn't have beaten Cracker or Doflamingo, he still needed help. Maybe he's superior if none of them were devil fruit users, but as it stands, they are stronger.