One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[King Moe]

We have no evidence that grants Sanji the accolades or feats that rival Jimbei.

1. Sanji got defeated by Vergo, granted Sanji was already injured.
2. He got 1-hit by Joker.

He's not done exceptionally against any formidable opponent while Jimbei:

1. Fought with Ace for 5 days who Chinjao believes could have been Pirate King.
2. Blew Big Mom away.

Sanji's resume is poor in comparison. These are not in anyway me putting down Sanji, these are just facts.



Sanji has Armament, but there's 2 categories of Armament:

1. Invisible which most people can use.
2. Hardening which is represented as black.

Sanji has no Hardening. Even in situations that it'd have been viable to use it, he didn't use it which implies he doesn't possess it. You can't attribute something that's visually discerned to a character that has yet to exhibit unless they're characters whom have been given the highest seats in the series, and therefore can be given reasonable benefit of the doubt.

It would be like trying to make a case that Nami has King's Haki despite the fact she's yet to use it, it's unlikely, however, does Mihawk have King's Haki? I can give him that benefit of the doubt and claim he probably does. For characters who do not belong to the quintessence of strength and power, we can't give them that privilege.

If there was a time for Sanji to prove he had Hardened Armament, it'd have been when his shin was cracked as Hardening would have further protected his legs; this could also have been done against Joker, but he never made use of it implying he simply doesn't possess it.

In fact, when people who possess Hardening go against blades, they always use Hardening as we see with Luffy, Joker and even Vergo against Tashigi

Jimbei has Hardening, we've seen him use it; Sanji doesn't. Even going further, Sanji blocked Judge's blade with his leg and we're told he used Armament (the Invisible variant which is the weaker form of Armament), and what happened to his leg? It throbbed in pain... had he used Hardening like Luffy, Law and Vergo, this wouldn't have happened.

One simply can't use something they do not possess. Either Sanji is a masochist who loves pain, or he simply doesn't have it.

Again, we can even go to his fight with Luffy.

He explicitly stated he used the entirety of his strength against Luffy, and the best he could do against a weakened Luffy was a missing teeth? Luffy wasn't even defending himself.

These are just plain facts. If Jimbei, or Cracker had free shots at Luffy? I'd be far more worried about Luffy losing more than a teeth. Sanji did nothing impressive despite fighting to the best of his abilities as he states.

Jimbei has Hardening, Sanji doesn't.




There's a scene that is taken out of context in regards to speed. Sanji can't move so fast that he can't be seen. If you look at the context, it was misdirection. Oven was focused on Pound and because of that, Sanji was able to sneak in an attack undetected and who were the people that didn't see him? Fodder and civilians. Sanji's speed is not significantly great. More so, reason Oven missed Sanji is while his attention was entirely on Pound, he's a 5m tall individual and he has some 3 times smaller than himself attacking him at a blind-spot... it would be like being focused on punching a peer, and then a toddler 3 times smaller than yourself kicked you from a blind-spot.

1. You wouldn't expect it.
2. Fact you're not expecting it would make you completely miss it.

Why Jimbei would lose out to Sanji in speed is questionable when he kept up with Gear 2nd Luffy. Nothing at all indicates Sanji has anything over JImbei.

I think the reality is Sanji is simply weaker than most of his fans expect him to be, that much is a fact and he's lost literally every fight he's had in the New World. He didn't even put up a good fight against Judge, but granted, they had Raid Suits on.

Jimbei outclasses Sanji, that's really the fact. Jimbei has the feats, he has the accolades against opponents, he has Hardening. There's nothing Sanji has that comes close to matching anything Jimbei has done.

Whether he's running away or not doesn't excuse how he's been beat by literally everyone. When he did fight, he did nothing spectacular.

This isn't bashing Sanji, it's literally taking the facts and accepting them for what they are, but it doesn't mean he will remain like this forever. In fact, it makes sense for Sanji to be relatively weak in the lead to this arc in order to sell his predicament as authentic. If he was stomping opponents left right and centre, people would question how Sanji could have been backed against the wall so easily, but this is the reality.

To remotely compare Sanji to guys like Luffy, Zoro and Jimbei at this point? Highly questionable. He has nothing remotely placing him at that tier.

1. That isn't a defeat cause again the fight didn't end and Sanji continue fighting Vergo continuously, saying it's a "defeat" means just like Zoro with Fujitora was a defeat the same way, but it wasn't cause both outcomes are unclear and don't know what will happen. Especially if you look at Luffy's situation with Katakuri as most thought he would lose and is outclass, but was able to learn and get stronger into the fight and increase his power of Haki. Along with the flashback that helps said that in "EXTREME" situations, Haki can advance more through battle and such. If that's the case, who's to say the fight with Vergo that he would lose? Again, I think your misunderstanding on how "true loses" are. Doflamingo was an true lose, but the Vergo one isn't due to no outcome as Sanji continues fighting and didn't stop or runaway until Vergo was the one to leave, not him.

2. Not one hit, but again I agree with that lost as true. Though saying that would also means Zoro is no match for him either as despite beating Pica (Who was still kinda a fodder as it didn't felt serious to Zoro at all since slicing rocks is no big feat deal), he couldn't cut Doflamingo's string and those weren't even his most strongest power y and let's not forget Law lost to him too. So Doflamingo was someone Luffy was able to manage mostly himself, but did struggle and need a bit of help for sure. So let's calm down with Zoro and Jimbei being farther apart when they aren't at least.

Now for Jimbei:

1. And?...Doesn't really matter as again Jimbei isn't the only one with inhuman feats especially since Sanji as a child, starve to close death for almost a month, but still have energy to move around and not die off and kill over and also again, your missing the durability part of him able to tank a lot more than granted with Kuma's Urusa Shock, Laser through his body, blocking an Haki Armor Giant attack, etc.. I could go on about his durability feats.

2. Sorry Hannibal, that isn't acceptable feat. Big Mom was both hungry and weaken by not having food. Jimbei able to push her was expected since she was "nerfed". If she was full power, I would give you that, but not the case. While the other hand, Sanji block an full power Big Mom attack aiming for his sister, so if anything, Sanji is strong compare to Jimbei in that regard and don't say "Oh, but Luffy was by his side and take everything with it). Luffy needed Gear 4 to block an full attack from BM, but soon use all his power to do it. Saying he can use Gear 3rd to block it alone when Gear 4 is stronger would be so inconsistent about the power scaling. They blocked equally and share about of force behind and since we know BM's strength is no joke, that was impressive easily since it's rare for Sanji to come striking at a woman too.

Hope your not taking this as disrespecting Jimbei I still like him, but let's get real and not overhype or push things like some people thinking Zoro can defeat Kaido and his Yonko Crew alone.

He does have it, but again it's hard to see with color scheme as his black suit is hard to show it off and within his Diamble Jamble. It also have already been mention by Judge who notice first hand in their fight he uses it. Answer me why would Judge said that knowing his children have bodies that aren't with Haki are hard as tough steel and could have said that on Sanji, but instead mention's Haki alone and nothing else? Saying he can't go more on the level wouldn't be right and while we haven't seen it visible, doesn't mean it was there. If that's the case, what that mean for Whitebeard or his crew? He was label the strongest man on the planet along with his strongest crew as well. If that makes Sanji weak for not able to "visible" show it more, what that says about them? You think someone with that title is weak too in their Haki despite given that title?

It's more that Oda doesn't want to show it yet or trying to do it in color to present it in the end, but that doesn't mean it's not there at all. Also you do know the leg cracking thing could be he just came back into his body due to spending it in others and let's not forget that Sanji didn't know Vergo has Haki that hard which is similar to Luffy as he punches Katakuri's Block Mochi and his hands puffed and bleed bad, but he still kept fighting. Again, I know your using these as fact to show he isn't that strong, but again if the outcome of the fight isn't determined, you can't use it as fact he will lose since that's your guess, not series. We wouldn't know what would happen with them in a fight as Oda could make Sanji kick his ass in the end.

Now for the other picture you put concerning Luffy vs Sanji ordeal, that is obviously he was holding back, Hannibal. Come on, do you think Sanji in the deepest of his being and heart would try to kill him outright? He was just saying that to make Luffy go away, not to straight up kill him. There are plenty of ways he could kill someone and since he is one of Luffy's closest friends, he knows Luffy very well to know what can kill him. Saying that he was "using his fullest strength" in that fight is very obvious it's not at all. He simply wanted to beat him up badly, not kill him. Doing that mess up the whole theme on Sanji on him being "kind" deep down in his heart, so of course he wouldn't try to kill anyone or want them to die by his involvement in the slightest. This is like Luffy vs Usopp where both men fight it out, but honestly didn't want to kill each other in the end and plus Sanji wouldn't kill a person who refuse to fight as he isn't heartless being like that. So using that as another reason, doesn't help your side as everyone knows that wasn't Sanji's full power.

Now discussing on his feats, nah. Your not convincing me on that one, now that seems like your trying to degrade that scene on being something else. Sanji literally move in a blink of an eye and it been stated by him he moves so fast so no one would see him. Even if Oven was focus on him and got sneak attack, he would realize who hit him as you can still see someone while being sneak attack. Though Sanji's speed was too fast for anyone to see and for him to see as well, so while it's a misdirection yes, but it's an canon fact he is faster than people think he is.

Jimbei compete with Gear Second Luffy's speed? Now your stretching (no pun intended) as Luffy came straight at him, it wasn't from behind or anything, so of course Jimbei predicted, but in that scene he still move slow as he attack, so doesn't indicate he would be faster strike compare to Luffy and let alone Sanji in a instant. This doesn't prove he could take on Sanji at all.

I think your thinking too deep on this so much than you realize as while I agree on combat wie it been up and down, but in truth Sanji been facing major players of people the most part and couldn't fight back for reasons on others. Saying he is "weak" person is really sleeping on what he can really do as I said above on his feats.

Also funny you said "he done nothing so far to help prove his feats more", in that case, Jimbei is in the same boat too as he hasn't been in legit fights that the opponents for a long time and only been in scruffles than one on one action. Can't really determine what he can do all out either, so that's a bit biased on your part on putting it on Sanji and not Jimbei. I get Jimbei is a great character and all, but let's not excuse and be blinded that much on the character. So until he takes out someone really formidable and not team or nerfed like Big Mom was as again, you can't use that as a feat since she wasn't that tough in that state and it been mention that way.

So in defense, this I am not coming at you or attacking you, but I think your leaning too hard on certain aspects that not as factual as you think and Sanji is far from being an weak person in the slightest. So far, I don't see Jimbei coming on top, but they are close in power and maybe he could have advantage in sea a bit more, but yeah. I respect your own opinion on how you feel, but in my stance this doesn't really cut at all with what you said from your end to convince me other wise.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2018 ---

Wow Sanji really got shafted this arc even his cake was worthless. God damn Smoothie do something!Instead of letting your brothers do everything.

Reading the Raw pages and it actually look like it worked as Big Mom is on the ground seemingly unconscious and I think small timeskip passed before she wake up I think.

 

[AriesNoShion]

We have no evidence that grants Sanji the accolades or feats that rival Jimbei.

1. Sanji got defeated by Vergo, granted Sanji was already injured.
2. He got 1-hit by Joker.

He's not done exceptionally against any formidable opponent while Jimbei:

1. Fought with Ace for 5 days who Chinjao believes could have been Pirate King.
2. Blew Big Mom away.

Sanji's resume is poor in comparison. These are not in anyway me putting down Sanji, these are just facts.



Sanji has Armament, but there's 2 categories of Armament:

1. Invisible which most people can use.
2. Hardening which is represented as black.

Sanji has no Hardening. Even in situations that it'd have been viable to use it, he didn't use it which implies he doesn't possess it. You can't attribute something that's visually discerned to a character that has yet to exhibit unless they're characters whom have been given the highest seats in the series, and therefore can be given reasonable benefit of the doubt.

It would be like trying to make a case that Nami has King's Haki despite the fact she's yet to use it, it's unlikely, however, does Mihawk have King's Haki? I can give him that benefit of the doubt and claim he probably does. For characters who do not belong to the quintessence of strength and power, we can't give them that privilege.

If there was a time for Sanji to prove he had Hardened Armament, it'd have been when his shin was cracked as Hardening would have further protected his legs; this could also have been done against Joker, but he never made use of it implying he simply doesn't possess it.

In fact, when people who possess Hardening go against blades, they always use Hardening as we see with Luffy, Joker and even Vergo against Tashigi

Jimbei has Hardening, we've seen him use it; Sanji doesn't. Even going further, Sanji blocked Judge's blade with his leg and we're told he used Armament (the Invisible variant which is the weaker form of Armament), and what happened to his leg? It throbbed in pain... had he used Hardening like Luffy, Law and Vergo, this wouldn't have happened.

One simply can't use something they do not possess. Either Sanji is a masochist who loves pain, or he simply doesn't have it.

Again, we can even go to his fight with Luffy.

He explicitly stated he used the entirety of his strength against Luffy, and the best he could do against a weakened Luffy was a missing teeth? Luffy wasn't even defending himself.

These are just plain facts. If Jimbei, or Cracker had free shots at Luffy? I'd be far more worried about Luffy losing more than a teeth. Sanji did nothing impressive despite fighting to the best of his abilities as he states.

Jimbei has Hardening, Sanji doesn't.




There's a scene that is taken out of context in regards to speed. Sanji can't move so fast that he can't be seen. If you look at the context, it was misdirection. Oven was focused on Pound and because of that, Sanji was able to sneak in an attack undetected and who were the people that didn't see him? Fodder and civilians. Sanji's speed is not significantly great. More so, reason Oven missed Sanji is while his attention was entirely on Pound, he's a 5m tall individual and he has some 3 times smaller than himself attacking him at a blind-spot... it would be like being focused on punching a peer, and then a toddler 3 times smaller than yourself kicked you from a blind-spot.

1. You wouldn't expect it.
2. Fact you're not expecting it would make you completely miss it.

Why Jimbei would lose out to Sanji in speed is questionable when he kept up with Gear 2nd Luffy. Nothing at all indicates Sanji has anything over JImbei.

I think the reality is Sanji is simply weaker than most of his fans expect him to be, that much is a fact and he's lost literally every fight he's had in the New World. He didn't even put up a good fight against Judge, but granted, they had Raid Suits on.

Jimbei outclasses Sanji, that's really the fact. Jimbei has the feats, he has the accolades against opponents, he has Hardening. There's nothing Sanji has that comes close to matching anything Jimbei has done.

Whether he's running away or not doesn't excuse how he's been beat by literally everyone. When he did fight, he did nothing spectacular.

This isn't bashing Sanji, it's literally taking the facts and accepting them for what they are, but it doesn't mean he will remain like this forever. In fact, it makes sense for Sanji to be relatively weak in the lead to this arc in order to sell his predicament as authentic. If he was stomping opponents left right and centre, people would question how Sanji could have been backed against the wall so easily, but this is the reality.

To remotely compare Sanji to guys like Luffy, Zoro and Jimbei at this point? Highly questionable. He has nothing remotely placing him at that tier.

Sorry some of your facts are not facts:
1.Vergo didn't defeat Sanji. They fought and both ran from the gas. Sanji's ability was not suitable to this kind of ability that is all. Nobody had to come to save his ass or anything. It's like Saying the Rust guy in Enies Lobby defeated Zoro...Everey people has his weakness. People with high physical resistance are Sanji's weakness, that is all.
2.one-hit means one hit. And Doflamingo didn't one shot him. Sanji took his string color thing and fought back 5 sec later. The second blow would have been fatal, as for anyone in the crew except Luffy.

For Jimbei:
1. Ace, Pirate King, pleaseThis guy "won" against Smoker, that is all. After that he lost every fight he was part of...Comparing Ace to a yonko makes me laugh, so Pirate King...yes, no.
2. Jimbei pushed a weakened BM. At least Luffy and Sanj did the same at full power. You can't compare both cases. We still don't know how much weakened she was.

And denying the hardening ability of Sanji? It was clearly stated during his fight with Judge. He stopped his spear with his leg...What more do you want? If his leg was not hardened, he would have his leg cut a long time ago. I think it's Oda himself who stated in his SBS thingy that the monster trio had his own Haki speciality:
-Luffy King's haki - zoro armament and Sanji observation. And that seems correct. He dodged a sneak attack from Katakuri himself, the king of observation haki, what Luffy tried to do for dozens of chapters.

You can dislike Sanji's figt style, but you can't deny what he has. He can defeat powerfull opponent, but some profile are deadly to him, that is all (like Vergo, Doflamingo....all people who have special abilities against close combat and conventional body structure)
And yes Vergo broke his leg, maybe because his hardened haki was better, that is all. Pica and Zoro explained it, when two hardened body clash, the one's wining is the one with strongest haki.
And yes, Sanji's best skill in the end was his speed, you can't possibly argue with that. The way he took the cake, beat Oven and ran with Luffy against the entire BM army...saying otherwise is bad faith. The only one faster than him was Niji with his raid suit, that is all. Jimbei is a formidable fighter but he never shone at speed. He's strong, he can take a hit and he is not as slow as his size suggests, that is all.

I don't care about the "who is the best fighter" thing, maybe Jimbei is stronger, in any case he was dispalyed as someone strong. As if tou could tell he's strogner or not than Luffy...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

1. That isn't a defeat cause again the fight didn't end and Sanji continue fighting Vergo continuously, saying it's a "defeat" means just like Zoro with Fujitora was a defeat the same way, but it wasn't cause both outcomes are unclear and don't know what will happen. Especially if you look at Luffy's situation with Katakuri as most thought he would lose and is outclass, but was able to learn and get stronger into the fight and increase his power of Haki. Along with the flashback that helps said that in "EXTREME" situations, Haki can advance more through battle and such. If that's the case, who's to say the fight with Vergo that he would lose? Again, I think your misunderstanding on how "true loses" are. Doflamingo was an true lose, but the Vergo one isn't due to no outcome as Sanji continues fighting and didn't stop or runaway until Vergo was the one to leave, not him.

Actually, he did imply he was going to lose defeat or not. He was in no condition to fight. Fact is he's not been formidable since the New World. Sanji doesn't even have Hardening.

Yes, Haki can advance, but it doesn't mean that everyone who fights during tough battles would advance in Haki. Fact is he currently doesn't have it.

Why do you think all those who fought Katakuri also didn't awaken future seeing Observation? Not everyone has that talent and not everyone is in the state of mind to unlock it.

He'd have lost. Sanji says if that fight had continue... it's pretty clear what he's going to end the sentence with... he's injured to the point even a slap from Nami put him down.

He does have it, but again it's hard to see with color scheme as his black suit

Even if he had black pants on, Oda has shown Hardening against Black backgrounds.

So, it is just an excuse to claim that Oda can't showcase Hardening because he's wearing black.

There's a distinct effect that Oda adds to Hardening which is why it's so conspicuous. He gives it this smooth metalic black matte shine with the white reflective bubble.

Sanji has been wearing White pants through out the arc and where is his Hardening? Still hasn't shown it after how many arcs?

1. Fishman Island
2. Punk Hazard
3. Dressrosa
4. Zou
5. WCI

He has no Hardening.

It's really not even debatable, who has Sanji fought that is even anything as remarkable or as formidable as even an already weakened Big Mom? Big Mom in that state is superior to anyone Sanji has fought.

Sanji has no credentials since the New World nor does he have Hardening and his performance against Luffy despite trying his hardest was poor.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

People with high physical resistance are Sanji's weakness, that is all.

Really? People with "high physical resistance" are his weakness? That's like saying after Luffy fights Big Mom and loses that people who are strong... are his weakness... that doesn't make sense.

It would be like running against a sprinter and claiming that you lost because people who run faster than you are your weakness... no... that's not how weaknesses are attributed.

A weakness is an unusual circumstance or object that somewhat uniquely has the ability to cripple performance, e.g. Beautiful women in Sanji's case.

What about someone who loses to Sanji? Is the excuse that their "weakness" is to powerful kicks? That's not how one attributes weakness.

Something that all persons are equally subject to or collectively compromised by isn't and can't be regarded a weakness:

1. Bleeding to death isn't a weakness.
2. Inability for humans to breathe under water isn't a weakness.

If you lose to someone because of their durability, simply means your attacks aren't powerful enough.

Anyway, this will be my last on Sanji strength-wise in this thread, power level thread is for such debates.

 

[afromarco005]

I have seen some zoro/mihawk/Shanks wanking on other forums but here on mangahelpers it feels like the island of Sanji delusional fanboys it's not even funny...

People defend Sanji blindly and find all kind of excuses for him even when the facts are obvious and even when given proof from manga panels and such, pretending that Sanji is on the level of Luffy and Zoro and that he is above Jinbei is just ridiculous...

Let's refresh yall's memory :

Against Vergo who is just a doffy executive and thus way weaker than him
sanji exchanged a few kicks then said :

Spoiler

which means that vergo kun was about to mop the floor with him had the fight continued, by the way vergo was not even serious only kicking around no demon bamboo no full body armament just kicks while sanji was already using Diable jambe... if you count this as a draw or a potential win for sanji I don't know what to say to you anymore

Against doffy, he would have died like a dog had law not rescued his ass from being cut in half ( or more pieces)

Spoiler

No excuses here either as he was serious and doing his very best attacks to save his friends, I laugh at those who say that sanji is very durable, when he is really not that resistant at all even Franky outclasses him in that category (survived Senior pink suplex 30 times plus this one

Spoiler

S

Against Judge :
judge was already pushing sanji in the fight :

Spoiler

Sanji lost against judge too people say that he was too kind to keep fighting and didn't want to sacrify the soldiers lives but I call bulshit, if it was Luffy in his place he would have saw this wall coming and would have avoided it or pushed the germa soldiers out of the way before judge can kill them, BTW judge was charging at Sanji from far away if he was as fast as his fans make him out to be he could have dealt with this situation EZ.PZ

Spoiler

Like @Hannibal Psyche said Sanji was also doing his best to hurt luffy while he was not even defending himself and fought for the whole night against Cracker, still he didn't manage to knock him out or inflict any significant damage other than a broken tooth

Finally he was beaten in the air his forte by big mom random fodder son and got knocked down like a fly.

Spoiler

You need to stop the Sanji wanking it's getting old just accept the facts and move on.

 

[King Moe]

Actually, he did imply he was going to lose defeat or not. He was in no condition to fight. Fact is he's not been formidable since the New World. Sanji doesn't even have Hardening.

Yes, Haki can advance, but it doesn't mean that everyone who fights during tough battles would advance in Haki. Fact is he currently doesn't have it.

Why do you think all those who fought Katakuri also didn't awaken future seeing Observation? Not everyone has that talent and not everyone is in the state of mind to unlock it.

He'd have lost. Sanji says if that fight had continue... it's pretty clear what he's going to end the sentence with... he's injured to the point even a slap from Nami put him down.



Even if he had black pants on, Oda has shown Hardening against Black backgrounds.

So, it is just an excuse to claim that Oda can't showcase Hardening because he's wearing black.

There's a distinct effect that Oda adds to Hardening which is why it's so conspicuous. He gives it this smooth metalic black matte shine with the white reflective bubble.

Sanji has been wearing White pants through out the arc and where is his Hardening? Still hasn't shown it after how many arcs?

1. Fishman Island
2. Punk Hazard
3. Dressrosa
4. Zou
5. WCI

He has no Hardening.

It's really not even debatable, who has Sanji fought that is even anything as remarkable or as formidable as even an already weakened Big Mom? Big Mom in that state is superior to anyone Sanji has fought.

Sanji has no credentials since the New World nor does he have Hardening and his performance against Luffy despite trying his hardest was poor.

Well that's why I said he just came out of Nami's body into his own and let's not forget how poorly Nami uses his body in taking damage to which why he felt a bit off and also just transfer back. Though despite that, he still continue fight and didn't choose to run away or call it quits. He did said that, I won't lie, but again action speaks louder than words and it's shown Sanji would have gone down fighting rather than turn tail and between his legs, so something could happen in the fight to change tides if need be like the Luffy vs Katakuri thing as well.

He does have the Haki, but again color scheme as it even been mention on wikia on that his Haki is hard to see due to the his pant legs.

As for the Sai one, you do know in the manga color scheme covers and in the anime, his shows are brown, not pure black, right? You can't use manga for that since it's all black and white type of drawing. If you check on Sai color scheme, he wears brownish shoes, not black shoes and also his pant legs are quite colorful so of course the Haki can be seen more there. So you can't use that in the fact thing about the color scheme for that.

As for the arcs, you do realize he wears black suit majority for those arcs and for the ones he didn't especially in this arc, why does he need to get serious to use it full out when he isn't trying to look for a fight and plus remember he was "shackle" by blackmail to not fight much. So doesn't really prove he can't harden or not. Plus when he use Diamble Jamble, you can't see hardening since the flames are clouding it, but pretty sure it's in there within it since it still does damage to Logia beings and damage others harder than before.

Also Hannibal, your using the Big Mom thing again? If Jimbei could push her back, pretty sure Sanji can too since he help take force of full power attack from her along with Luffy, what makes you think he wouldn't be able to push back an hungry and more weaken Big Mom too? Sanji and Jimbei share a fight on pushing back Wadsutsmi and he was even large than her with ease. So no doubt Sanji has the capability of pushing her back in that state as well.

Again, your sleeping on other facts on Sanji on being stronger than he looks just because you want a long one on one fight with a strong person to place him when it's good enough with his brief encounters and instances on where he can match to someone. Also stop using the Luffy vs Sanji fact as it already been dismissed by my statement. If you honestly thought Sanji was going "full out" on killing someone especially Luffy who he want to leave the island than kill him more. Your missing the point big time if you think Sanji would do that to someone he still consider a very close friend and was fighting by force, not because Sanji want to kill him.

Sorry Hannibal, but again not sway by your post and you seem to be undermine other stuff on Sanji a bit more. Though I do agree with you on other things so far about him like the Doflamingo one (not one shot), how he was feeling with Vergo (though he still kept fighting, so can't call it defeat as why continue a fight if you know your going to lose?), etc.. Since this seems to be your last talk on this subject with your other post, thanks for sharing your opinion so far on how you feel. Hope we can respect each other differences on the situation as we come to talk here. Thank you for your talk .

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

He does have the Haki, but again color scheme as it even been mention on wikia on that his Haki is hard to see due to the his pant legs.

Wikia is not 100% accurate, they're just a bunch of folk on a forum who come to a consensus and agree; it doesn't mean they're infallible. They're not an official source.

Like I said, you're making excuses.

The Ace of Spade is originally black, yet, Oda has created a contrast; he makes it very clear when Hardened Armament is being used.

Whenever someone uses Hardened Armament it's clear; if you have to question whether Sanji has used Hardened Armament, it simply means he hasn't because there's no panel in the Manga where Hardening has been used, and it wasn't obvious.

You're ignoring the fact that Oda highlights with white ink to make it very noticeable to make argument.

Ace of Spades aren't supposed to go white, but Oda clearly did that to emphasize Hardening was used.

If Sanji could use Hardened Armament regardless of whether he wore black or white or pink, it'd be obvious.

We don't even need to go beyond Hardening and that alone puts Sanji below Jimbei.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2018 ---

As for the Sai one, you do know in the manga color scheme covers and in the anime, his shows are brown, not pure black, right?

Colour scheme irrelevant whether it's Anime or not. The Manga displays things as either white or black and it always will unless you're trying to claim Hardening can't be showcased on a black surface which is evidently false due to evidence.

If Oda wants to showcase Hardening over Black, he can, that's the point.

You're now trying to use the Anime just to form credible argument when the most reliable source is the Manga? Common now.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2018 ---

Also Hannibal, your using the Big Mom thing again? If Jimbei could push her back, pretty sure Sanji can too since he help take force of full power attack from her along with Luffy,

That's like saying that because because multiple characters combined to take on 1 character, that their attacks are equally of same value; that is incoherent logic.

It would be like saying that because Sanji and Pound attacked Oven at the same time, that Pound must be as strong as Sanji too.

It would simply mean Sanji and Pound co-cooperatively united to work together to take down Oven, but it doesn't mean both attacks are of equal value. It's far more logical to assume Pound contributed, but there's no way Pound's attacks are anywhere as powerful as Oven's.

 

[King Moe]

Wikia is not 100% accurate, they're just a bunch of folk on a forum who come to a consensus and agree; it doesn't mean they're infallible. They're not an official source.

Like I said, you're making excuses.

The Ace of Spade is originally black, yet, Oda has created a contrast; he makes it very clear when Hardened Armament is being used.

Whenever someone uses Hardened Armament it's clear; if you have to question whether Sanji has used Hardened Armament, it simply means he hasn't because there's no panel in the Manga where Hardening has been used, and it wasn't obvious.

You're ignoring the fact that Oda highlights with white ink to make it very noticeable to make argument.

Ace of Spades aren't supposed to go white, but Oda clearly did that to emphasize Hardening was used.

If Sanji could use Hardened Armament regardless of whether he wore black or white or pink, it'd be obvious.

We don't even need to go beyond Hardening and that alone puts Sanji below Jimbei.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2018 ---

Colour scheme irrelevant whether it's Anime or not. The Manga displays things as either white or black and it always will unless you're trying to claim Hardening can't be showcased on a black surface which is evidently false due to evidence.

If Oda wants to showcase Hardening over Black, he can, that's the point.

You're now trying to use the Anime just to form credible argument when the most reliable source is the Manga? Common now.

True on wikia, but so far One Piece wikia is one of the most accurate wikias and information around to go to since so far they haven't put something that is wrong or out of place as just like you and me, they are big fans of the series as much as we are and everyone else. So I don't think we should doubt the info from there at all as where else would we get more accurate information quickly than rereading a chapter or rewatching a episode of the series? So I feel we can trust it.

Not excuse as I said I agree with some of your points, but not all dude.

Also again, your missing the point on both his color scheme and also Diamble Jiamble is covering it, so you can't determine that he doesn't use it on his legs or not.

Also can't believe your using the manga artwork as fact when it's black and white? Sai's shoes aren't black and everyone's foot work or majority for the most part seems like they have dark-color shoes and that goes with their clothing, so can't use the manga color as a credible source as well. The anime is something Oda approves on which color scheme they have and let's not forget the manga cover at times as he color them in and show how they look like not just for manga sake, but anime sake too. So can't convince me on that, Hannibal and of course we need to use anime as an reliable source too.

I doubt Jimbei still do anything against Sanji still until he face and defeated someone very worthy, I will get you the debate about it, but until then, he isn't as "grand" as you think that Sanji along with Zoro are below him.

Both are credible, Anime and Manga, why you think Oda also put work in the anime at times as people ask him on things and he allows it? Saying the anime can't be use is like saying we can't use manga either unless Oda himself says it to everyone. He takes apart on both of them, so disregarding one of them to support soley one, is kinda biased there, Hannibal. I know the anime isn't the "greatest" at times, but they done things by Oda's orders still and showcase things clearer at times to help us understand when the manga couldn't like extend fighting scenes, showcasing clearer on the artwork with animation, etc..

So not convinced by this still, sorry bro. Though I get what you mean on hardening with skin and color tone, but again it's hard to see that if someone wears dark entire honestly and that is fact about it.

Also Pound isn't strong as a fighter, Sanji is and he can take on Oven if he wants too. Now yoru kind disregarding his strength if you think someone like him can't defeat large opponents or kick the hell out of them and with Big Mom in a weaken state, it can happen. Big Mom strength at full power is no joke and since it took him and Luffy to block it to share the force down and they didn't felt that exhausted, pretty sure Sanji is capable of pushing back BM as well with ease if she is weaken state.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Also again, your missing the point on both his color scheme and also Diamble Jiamble is covering it, so you can't determine that he doesn't use it on his legs or not.

Also can't believe your using the manga artwork as fact when it's black and white? Sai's shoes aren't black and everyone's foot work or majority for the most part seems like they have dark-color shoes and that goes with their clothing, so can't use the manga color as a credible source as well. The anime is something Oda approves on which color scheme they have and let's not forget the manga cover at times as he color them in and show how they look like not just for manga sake, but anime sake too. So can't convince me on that, Hannibal and of course we need to use anime as an reliable source too.

Fact is hardening can be displayed on black.

I don't know if you can comprehend that:

1. The Manga is limited to Black and white which represent dark or light colours in the Anime.
2. therefore, Oda has to and can showcase - Hardening on black backgrounds.

Whether or not Sai's shoes are Black in the Anime is irrelevant (Black colours in the Manga are represented Dark in the Anime), it's black in the Manga, so as I said, you're making excuses.

You cannot provide one piece of evidence to showcase Sanji using Hardening, so the only thing you can resort to is excuses because you won't accept the facts.

As the panel above indicates, if Oda wants to showcase Hardening against a black surface, it's easy. He just has to give it that shine and glisten like we see with Sai.

There's nothing to convince, you're in denial.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2018 ---

Also Pound isn't strong as a fighter, Sanji is and he can take on Oven if he wants too. Now yoru kind disregarding his strength if you think someone like him can't defeat large opponents or kick the hell out of them and with Big Mom in a weaken state, it can happen. Big Mom strength at full power is no joke and since it took him and Luffy to block it to share the force down and they didn't felt that exhausted, pretty sure Sanji is capable of pushing back BM as well with ease if she is weaken state.

Clearly didn't understand what was stated.

Who said Pound was as strong as Sanji?

• I said just because they both attacked Oven at the same time doesn't mean they had equal contribution in terms of strength output because you claimed that Sanji attacking Big Mom with Luffy implies both had similar impact. Point is that logic is incoherent and flawed. If anything, Luffy contributed a lot more than Sanji did. Sanji is not as much of a power-house as Luffy.

How you can compare Jimbei's skirmish to anyone Sanji has had a skirmish with is absurd. Even Judge threw Sanji left right and centre and even Judge is no where as formidable as Big Mom in a weakened state. Big Mom in her weakened state was a threat so huge that the entire crew on the ship could barely keep her away. Sanji hasn't had an opponent of that pedigree. Even Daifuku's genie overpowered him.

Sanji has nothing credible to make a case for him and he simply lacks Hardening.

Jimbei is a different calibre compared to Sanji and even if you don't want to acknowledge that, he has credentials while Sanji really doesn't.

If anyone was represented as Sanji was since the New World, they'd be deemed weak, but you're clearly too biased to acknowledge that.

Like stated before, just because he's relatively weak now doesn't mean it will always be the case.

When it comes to those who are fans of Sanji, they're unable to be remotely honest as I've come to notice. You can't even admit he doesn't have Hardening, lol.

It would be as absurd as me stating that because Usopp is my favourite character, he's also capable of using Observation Haki to see the future. I couldn't make such a claim without evidence because visual things can only be ascertained by visual imagery or by canonical statement.

 

[King Moe]

Fact is hardening can be displayed on black.

I don't know if you can comprehend that:

1. The Manga is limited to Black and white which represent dark or light colours in the Anime.
2. therefore, Oda has to and can showcase - Hardening on black backgrounds.

Whether or not Sai's shoes are Black in the Anime is irrelevant (Black colours in the Manga are represented Dark in the Anime), it's black in the Manga, so as I said, you're making excuses.

You cannot provide one piece of evidence to showcase Sanji using Hardening, so the only thing you can resort to is excuses because you won't accept the facts.

As the panel above indicates, if Oda wants to showcase Hardening against a black surface, it's easy. He just has to give it that shine and glisten like we see with Sai.

There's nothing to convince, you're in denial.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2018 ---

Clearly didn't understand what was stated.

Who said Pound was as strong as Sanji?

• I said just because they both attacked Oven at the same time doesn't mean they had equal contribution in terms of strength output because you claimed that Sanji attacking Big Mom with Luffy implies both had similar impact. Point is that logic is incoherent and flawed. If anything, Luffy contributed a lot more than Sanji did. Sanji is not as much of a power-house as Luffy.

How you can compare Jimbei's skirmish to anyone Sanji has had a skirmish with is absurd. Even Judge threw Sanji left right and centre and even Judge is no where as formidable as Big Mom in a weakened state. Big Mom in her weakened state was a threat so huge that the entire crew on the ship could barely keep her away. Sanji hasn't had an opponent of that pedigree. Even Daifuku's genie overpowered him.

Sanji has nothing credible to make a case for him and he simply lacks Hardening.

Jimbei is a different calibre compared to Sanji and even if you don't want to acknowledge that, he has credentials while Sanji really doesn't.

If anyone was represented as Sanji was since the New World, they'd be deemed weak, but you're clearly too biased to acknowledge that.

Like stated before, just because he's relatively weak now doesn't mean it will always be the case.

When it comes to those who are fans of Sanji, they're unable to be remotely honest as I've come to notice. You can't even admit he doesn't have Hardening, lol.

It would be as absurd as me stating that because Usopp is my favourite character, he's also capable of using Observation Haki to see the future. I couldn't make such a claim without evidence because visual things can only be ascertained by visual imagery or by canonical statement.

Maybe we should agree to disagree as it seems we are seeing things way too different on these points and won't convince the other on changing the others view that much.

Dude, the only one with excuses are you and you alone to trying to prove your facts more to justify on making Sanji a weakling when he isn't. Yes I know about how it's emphasize with hardening in the manga, but at the same time, we can't see that much due to another factor you keep forgetting is that his Diamble Jamble is covering his legs in flames. You can't see that through the flames as he strike, but pretty sure he use Haki on his attacks when fighting others if he need to bring more power.

They both contributed against Big Mom, Luffy couldn't even fucking tank it alone as he went into Gear 4 and punch her solo, but immediately reverted back to his normal state. So your telling me he can match her strength with Gear 3rd which is weaker than Gear 4 and was able to handle it more? That is more inconsistent that what you said. Obviously both share the same impact and combine their strengths to block it off. There is no way around that, Hannibal. Luffy even struggles with Cracker and Katakuri, so to say he can hold down Big Mom's full force attack like it was not much for him, it's putting Luffy a bit over there, sorry your getting into denial over this.

Dude, Sanji wasn't even that damage by Judge and the reason he gave him the fight up is because the man cheated on using human shields to attack him with out of nowhere. Anyone with sense knew he cheated to win as Sanji isn't the type of guy to kill an man through to get to someone like that. Your seriously denying the truth facts right in your face and how he is as a character and more focusing on other stuff than that. Sanji can compete and could have defeated Judge with ease and Judge was easily taken out by BM with one hit. Your giving too much credit to other traits when it's not that large on them.

Also Daifuku "overpowers" Sanji?.....Yep, it's clear no offense, but your biased by far now on this one. As to say that despite few chapters back he defend the Sunny and Carrot against Daifuku's Genie who I might add was larger than his regular size and covered in Haki and stopped the weapon with one kick and deflect it with ease and this is from a guy who chapters ago cut several ships in half with that same Genie. Saying Sanji can't handle him is like saying Jimbei actually did damage to BM which he didn't at all, bro. Sanji could handle any of the BM pirates that he came across and not fighting with them as it's not the "Main Thing" to fight. They are escaping, not dominating.

Look I get you have big desires for Jimbei and I respect that, I do too. If he joins the Strawhats official, he will be one of the strongest fighters, I am not disregarding that. Though in power scale among the crew, he would be close to the Monster Trio and so far, he has not done anything to show how exactly full power strong he is. You can't use BM as a excuse that he could have taken her or as a feat cause again, she was hungry and weaken. Saying that would mean Jimbei is stronger than even Luffy and Zoro as well and we both know that's not the case. Once Jimbei fight someone at good health on both sides and it's formidable, I'll be the first one to tell you your right and he is stronger than certain members of the crew even Sanji.

Though as you said, we haven't seen much credibility on what Jimbei can do and who he can take out on a big scale similar to Sanji. It doesn't mean both are weak, far from it. As their interactions and brief fights show if they were to face anyone in BM crew, it certainly would be against their toughest fighters no doubt. Though as for now, they are close in power with Sanji a bit ahead of Jimbei. Until something happens to them on feats and who they face, I will be the first to tell you Jimbei is stronger than him and others, but if not, not going to count him as stronger than the Monster Trio at least.

It's not denial or biased opinion as like I said I like Jimbei too and see what he is about, but for now, let's keep it as evenly match at least between them since we can't agree or change each other's opinions on this. Though, I do know Sanji and the others will get stronger as they need to since the enemies will only get tougher as they face off with more enemies, so I understand that. Hope to see more feats on Sanji along with others as well. So let's keep this discussion off for now and come back to it when the time is right, Hannibal. Agree?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

We have credibility on Jimbei's part:

1. He's survived Akainu.
2. Fought Ace,
3. Defended against the strongest Pirates in the world even though weakened.
4. Has Hardening.

Sanji has nothing in comparison, there's really nothing to debate.

Dude, Sanji wasn't even that damage by Judge and the reason he gave him the fight up is because the man cheated on using human

Before Judge brought out his Human shields...:

Start of the battle, Sanji is "RATTL" indicating shaken up by that attack briefly and his head bowed down because he's in pain, it's a normal reaction to pain. Nothing damage, but Judge is already having the advantage. He's got Sanji on the back-foot.

Judge decides to take the battle to the air... Sanji confidently claims aerial battle is his forte.

So, he iterates how his forte is aerial battle and he proceeds to use Diable Jambe.. low & behold, Sanji brimming with confidence is effortlessly grabbed by Judge and thrown into the ground.

As if being flung into the ground wasn't enough, Judge swiftly closes the distance and kicks Sanji away like a football.

And you're making out like Judge had human shields the entire fight? Please, he was on the back-foot the entire battle without Judge resorting to human shields. When Sanji uses Diable Jambe, he's clearly looking to land serious damage and he still got out-muscled and overpowered, he was outclassed in this fight.

Anyway, I won't be responding anymore, I can't deal with dishonesty and excuses or blind fanaticism towards a character as discussions cannot progress if there's a lack of objectivity or where common ground cannot be established.

 

[King Moe]

We have credibility on Jimbei's part:

1. He's survived Akainu.
2. Fought Ace,
3. Defended against the strongest Pirates in the world even though weakened.
4. Has Hardening.

Sanji has nothing in comparison, there's really nothing to debate.



Before Judge brought out his Human shields...:



Start of the battle, Sanji is "RATTL" indicating shaken up by that attack briefly and his head bowed down because he's in pain, it's a normal reaction to pain. Nothing damage, but Judge is already having the advantage. He's got Sanji on the back-foot.



Judge decides to take the battle to the air... Sanji confidently claims aerial battle is his forte.



So, he iterates how his forte is aerial battle and he proceeds to use Diable Jambe.. low & behold, Sanji brimming with confidence is effortlessly grabbed by Judge and thrown into the ground.



As if being flung into the ground wasn't enough, Judge swiftly closes the distance and kicks Sanji away like a football.

And you're making out like Judge had human shields the entire fight? Please, he was on the back-foot the entire battle without Judge resorting to human shields. When Sanji uses Diable Jambe, he's clearly looking to land serious damage and he still got out-muscled and overpowered, he was outclassed in this fight.

Anyway, I won't be responding anymore, I can't deal with dishonesty and excuses or blind fanaticism towards a character as discussions cannot progress if there's a lack of objectivity or where common ground cannot be established.

1. "Fought" Akainu?.....Yep, your pushing too much as we all know Akainu could have kill him with ease and not really a fight as Jimbei was trying to protect Luffy, he got burned hard by him, so wouldn't call that a fight much since he was running away from him.

2. So? Sanji is above Ace level already since Ace didn't really have Haki except Conqueror and it never been said he is skill in the other departments at all.

3. He didn't stop up to the stronger ones like the Admirals, Warlords, and so on much. He is at best at somewhere on a Vice Admiral lvl that time during the MarineFord. I will give you on him facing off with Gecko Moria, but honestly he isn't much to trifled much since Luffy defeat him and the environment was more Jimbei side since he has seawater everywhere.

4. Yet his Hardening is not that tough if a weaken Big Mom push him back and also if he has that before, how come he got damage from the likes of Akainu, Mihawk, and so on. Not saying he isn't tough, but it's shown his Haki isn't' invincible like your trying to state.



You do realize Sanji haven't seen his father in years and thus is taken back by techniques of someone he fought for the first time, right? You can't simply predict on what they can do if you never fought them before. Just because he is push back doesn't mean he would have lose to him full force.

I am not, but you do know Sanji wasn't even out cold and unfazed by the damage as much as you trying to force in your opinions. The man been through worse damage from past fights compare to Judge, you act like he is equivalent to Doflamingo, Vergo, etc.. When he isn't anything to scoffed at and yes I am using the human shield thing cause again, what you think he would do face to face on using people as shields? The fight was cheated at the end and thus he gave his father the win, not because through sheer willpower and such Judge is stronger than him at all. Keep trying, dude.

Suit yourself. I am having enough on this from my side too. I thought you were an understanding person, but your really more disrespectful than you appear and along with delusions of having Jimbei on some pedestal when the man haven't even shown his full power and have losses against others like Akainu, Mihawk, etc.. I am get Jimbei is a tough guy, but Idk compare to the Monster Trio. He hasn't have an full on one on one fight with anyone either, so you shouldn't think he could destroy everyone he meets as it's obvious he can't do that with just everybody.

If you can't understand that and refuse to listen on your end, I can't waste my breath with someone so blind to facts and sleeping on others thinking they can't do stuff and even calling characters like Sanji a "weakling" just because you don't see one on one long fight to show more of his abilities. Sanji going to be in the crew for a long time. Think using your head on his stance in power and what he will contribute. Ignoring that and thinking he won't do anything and he can't hurt anything is really biased beyond, Hannibal.

We are done with our discussion.

 

[AriesNoShion]

Really? People with "high physical resistance" are his weakness? That's like saying after Luffy fights Big Mom and loses that people who are strong... are his weakness... that doesn't make sense.

It would be like running against a sprinter and claiming that you lost because people who run faster than you are your weakness... no... that's not how weaknesses are attributed.

A weakness is an unusual circumstance or object that somewhat uniquely has the ability to cripple performance, e.g. Beautiful women in Sanji's case.

What about someone who loses to Sanji? Is the excuse that their "weakness" is to powerful kicks? That's not how one attributes weakness.

Something that all persons are equally subject to or collectively compromised by isn't and can't be regarded a weakness:

1. Bleeding to death isn't a weakness.
2. Inability for humans to breathe under water isn't a weakness.

If you lose to someone because of their durability, simply means your attacks aren't powerful enough.

Anyway, this will be my last on Sanji strength-wise in this thread, power level thread is for such debates.

Really? If you can't understand, Sanji is way more disadvantaged than Zoro or Luffy against strong/resistant bodies, i can't help you. Luffy is a rubber man, he dosen't care about how hard/resistant their body are. Same for Zoro -> either his swords can take it or his swords break (2 times in 25 years..yaaay). Sanji has no DF and doesn't use tools like lazy untalented people .
His weakness is simply the fact he uses directly his own body as a weapon and doesn't benefits, like Luffy,from special abilities as DF. You can do all the childish analogies you want, it's a fact not an opinion, not my problem if you don't want to get something this simple.

You started this. Playing cool and bored now is a little easy. Especially when you spend 10 lines on one sentence and forget the rest of the "facts"

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Really? If you can't understand, Sanji is way more disadvantaged than Zoro or Luffy against strong/resistant bodies, i can't help you. Luffy is a rubber man, he dosen't care about how hard/resistant their body are. Same for Zoro -> either his swords can take it or his swords break (2 times in 25 years..yaaay). Sanji has no DF and doesn't use tools like lazy untalented people .
His weakness is simply the fact he uses directly his own body as a weapon and doesn't benefits, like Luffy,from special abilities as DF. You can do all the childish analogies you want, it's a fact not an opinion, not my problem if you don't want to get something this simple.

You started this. Playing cool and bored now is a little easy. Especially when you spend 10 lines on one sentence and forget the rest of the "facts"

Pretty delusional statement.

Ace is easily the most talented fighter in One Piece, using a DF doesn't mean someone lacks talent, it's more like increasing the tools they have at their disposal.

To say Sanji is weak against people with strong bodies is essentially saying Sanji is weak against strong people.

All strong individuals have strong bodies. Whether you have a DF or Not, without a strong body strong enough to withstand damage from other opponents, it is meaningless.

Akainu took the full brunt of Whitebeard's attack, his ability did nothing to mitigate the damage and he survived it. A character's durability is proof of their strength.

Your stupid excuse here is that Sanji doesn't have a weapon or DF, therefore, he can't be formidable. Read the manga, there's a character called Garp and he's literally regarded as an Admiral despite not having a DF or Weapon.

Read the manga carefully.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2018 ---

And denying the hardening ability of Sanji? It was clearly stated during his fight with Judge.

You're delusional. He has the Invisible Armament Haki which most characters have.

Hardening is black.

Where has Sanji showcased Black Haki?

 

[AriesNoShion]

Pretty delusional statement.

Ace is easily the most talented fighter in One Piece, using a DF doesn't mean someone lacks talent, it's more like increasing the tools they have at their disposal.

What a joke...Ace...most "talented"...he is exactly what Blackbeard says he is: a cocky DF user who depends too much on his logia abilities. Again he didn't lose against Smoker and that's it. To talk about bad judgement, that's a understatement...Because what? He has haoshoku and a logia DF he is talented? I wish we could have seen him using effectively his tool at least once or twice in this case...

To say Sanji is weak against people with strong bodies is essentially saying Sanji is weak against strong people.
All strong individuals have strong bodies. Whether you have a DF or Not, without a strong body strong enough to withstand damage from other opponents, it is meaningless.

Akainu took the full brunt of Whitebeard's attack, his ability did nothing to mitigate the damage and he survived it. A character's durability is proof of their strength.

Your stupid excuse here is that Sanji doesn't have a weapon or DF, therefore, he can't be formidable. Read the manga, there's a character called Garp and he's literally regarded as an Admiral despite not having a DF or Weapon.

Read the manga carefully.

Words have nuances. I gave you synonym to make it clear but you chose to stay stuck with the "strrooooong" one...
Let's try with an example: Vergo had an iron/heavy body. Was that Haki, a DF? Who cares that's not the point: he had a strong / RESISTANT body and that's what works the best against Sanji's fighting style. Same observation, for BM, Kuma...
And no, all strong individuals have not strong bodies. Cracker's body was not "strong", Perospero's body either and i could continue on and on...You have a large diversity of opponents in this universe, hopefully. But their power level doesn't match mathematically their resisatance that's stupid.
Akainu's survival is your opinion. It seems fair to say he used his logia abilities to deal with his opponent, and yes he survived WB's attacks. He did exactly like Aokiji when he take a punch: he uses his logia power to dematerialize his body and recreate it.
Saying that a character's durability is proof of their strength is nonsense. We saw very strong people with shity durability, Magellan being the best example i have in mind, and i m sure there are plenty of them. (Cracker, Moria...)
Red the manga

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2018 ---

You're delusional. He has the Invisible Armament Haki which most characters have.

Hardening is black.

Where has Sanji showcased Black Haki?

Show me anyone post timeskip who can stop a blade, a spear... with his bare hand or feet without using haki or DF and we can start to have a real discussion. And not a random fodder like chestpieces, near Judge power level. the "invisible armament haki" ..that's haki or that's bullshit, that is all. If your poor point is "this is a manga, plot armor..." i think this case is closed
Hardening is black. So are Sanji's leg...so what, every charcacter with black outfit will have to strip before a fight to prove us he has haki? He can do the same thing than a guy with this haki but it is Sanji so he doesn't have the "black haki"..cmon man, are you really on this level? They put nice animations in the anime on Zoro's blade against Pika, that's what you would want for Sanji? Really? No thanks sir.
He has it since post time skip that'sobvious. And not because his legs are darker or any other shit we can think of, because he can do what people with this black haki can do:
-break the neck from a Pacifista with his bare feet
-block blades with nothing between this lame and his skin
Feel free to think that Oda is inconsistent with such things, but the moment you use argument like "this is a manga, it's plot armor"...you lost. What are we even doing here

 

[afromarco005]

1. "Fought" Akainu?.....Yep, your pushing too much as we all know Akainu could have kill him with ease and not really a fight as Jimbei was trying to protect Luffy, he got burned hard by him, so wouldn't call that a fight much since he was running away from him..

Boy he said survived don't put words in his mouth in your desperate attempt to make any sense.

1.

2. So? Sanji is above Ace level already since Ace didn't really have Haki except Conqueror and it never been said he is skill in the other departments at all.
.

Spoiler

Current Sanji stronger than Ace? I take it you are either trolling or you are reading a whole different manga, Ace is closer to luffy albeit in my opinion luffy has surpassed him than.

3. He didn't stop up to the stronger ones like the Admirals, Warlords, and so on much. He is at best at somewhere on a Vice Admiral lvl that time during the MarineFord. I will give you on him facing off with Gecko Moria, but honestly he isn't much to trifled much since Luffy defeat him and the environment was more Jimbei side since he has seawater everywhere.
.

Still downplaying Jinbei's feats when he did

Spoiler: this

Survived this

Spoiler: this

No vice admiral bar garp is tanking such a hit from Akainu-kun without dying, and Ace fought evenly with such a beast for 5 days!!!
And I could also argue that it's more sanji thats on a capitain/vice admiral level of strenght at max as vergo was a marine working for DD and he was a vice admiral and he was already way beyond the likes of Sanji...

And most recently we have

Spoiler: this

And he tanked

Spoiler: this named attack from a cakelusted mama

and came out unscathed Sanji did nothing comparable to this, you keep referencing this

Spoiler

but please understand that :

• This is a casual big mom punch not a serious named attack
• big mom went easy on them as she thought herself to be way stronger than her opponents
  
• big mom is not using haki
  
• this is mostly luffy's strenght blocking big mom punch he is the one directly colliding with most of her arm thanks to gear third sanji is just a bonus
• Mama didn't even flinch

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Hardening is black. So are Sanji's leg...so what, every charcacter with black outfit will have to strip before a fight to prove us he has haki?

You're delusional as I stated before. Oda can represent Hardening even against black backgrounds.

"invisible armament haki" ..that's haki or that's bullshit

Countless Scenarios where Haki is used without any Black shading post-timeskip:

1. Bobby Funk explicitly states he used Armament haki, yet his sword isn't Black.
   Spoiler

   
2. Haki is invisible with pekoms against Caribou.
   Spoiler

   
3. Luffy against Caesar, invisible haki.
   Spoiler

   
4. Tashigi cut Monet in Fishman Island without Black Armament.
   Spoiler

   
5. Luffy claims to have punched Trebol with Haki, yet his hands are not black.
   Spoiler

   
6. Luffy kicked Trebol here with INvisible Armament Haki and we know this because Luffy always assumed Trebol to be a Logia.
   Spoiler

   
7. Why didn't Sabo's pole cut in 2 whilst in a clash against a sword wielded by Fujitora if not for Haki?
   Spoiler

   
8. Burgess attempts to stab Sabo who he knows is a Logia, there's no way it wasn't imbued with Haki if he hoped to be successful.
   Spoiler

   

Show me anyone post timeskip who can stop a blade, a spear... with his bare hand or feet without using haki or DF

Again, you're an ignoramus. There are 2 levels of Haki. Invisible and Black (Hardening). It's clear Sanji can use the invisible, but not the Hardened version.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2018 ---

And no, all strong individuals have not strong bodies. Cracker's body was not "strong", Perospero's body either and i could continue on and on...You have a large diversity of opponents in this universe, hopefully. But their power level doesn't match mathematically their resisatance that's stupid.

This stupid example of Sanji being weak to strong opponents is not a weakness, that's simply him being weaker than his opponent.

Bobby Funk has a body that's naturally as hard as steel. A Haki imbued blade couldn't even damage it. Boo used a weapon and he failed to even scratch Bobby Funk. With your stupid logic, you'd be stating that Boo has a weakness to people with strong bodies as is your asinine excuse for Sanji.

• Despite Sai not using a weapon, he was strong enough to hurt the Body of Bobby with his legs.
  Spoiler

  

I'm pretty much expecting you to more or less claim that Bobby Funk's body has a weakness to powerful attacks despite it being as hard as steel when the reality is Sai attack power is simply stronger than Bobby Funk's body can handle.

So regardless of Vergo possessing an iron body whatever the case may be, if Sanji attacks were strong enough, Vergo would have been hurt.

Due to your delusional warped rationale, you have this inability to simply realise that characters can simply be stronger than another or weaker. A weaker opponent losing to a stronger opponent is not a weakness, that's just the difference in strength.

And go look up the definition of weakness, maybe your English is somewhat limited. A weakness in this context is something that directly compromises one physically or mentally. Possessing a strong body doesn't compromise Sanji, it didn't make Sani physically weaker or mentally compromised; in the case of Vergo, Sanji just lacked the power to do anything significant.

 

[AriesNoShion]

You're delusional as I stated before. Oda can represent Hardening even against black backgrounds.

What? his leg is not full black like Sanji, we can see his skin, of course Chinjao's kid used "black" aramament haki agaisnt his father.
I don't know why you put "haki on the picture on the right, that's just his kick. YOU put "haki" on it but that's all. We did't know at this moment if he could use it or not.

Countless Scenarios where Haki is used without any Black shading pre-timeskip...)
You're just ignorant, that's all. Educate yourself.

Let's play
1. we only see the blade when it's broken. Of course it's not bllack, there is no contact at all between the guy and his axe...easy one.
2. we don't see his full hand. Who knows, maybe only the part of his hand into contact with Caribos'sbody is black...Maybe for tou it's not, for me it is.
3. it's not haki at all. If it was Haki Caesar could not change the form of his head. Here Luffy throws a normal punch in Caesars face to make him shut up (that's an idea)
4. Hahahaha...Kiri shigure.. Tashigi... The all point of this battle is that she can't use haki and is useless against Birdgirl...At this moment Monet dosn't control his own body thanks to Zoro's previous mind attack (because he is sooo badass). It's a normal hit, YOU, again only you, put haki on it.
5. like 1 or 2 we see Luffy's hand after he hit. Maybe when he hit it was black, you don't know.
6. even you, you know why it's nonsense. It is NOT haki. Luffy uses only his leg, and Trebol is not a logia and his real body is hit, that is all, no haki here either.
7.excellent point: when sabo uses haki on his staff, we see the part of his staf becoming black. It's way more obious with the anime but even with these pics, this is the case. It's exactly what make my point, thank you
8.sneak attack, all logia are not in their intangible form all the timr. Here he's holding Burgess's face, of course he is solid and Burgess thinks he can stab him if quick enough (and he is a moron). But again, maybe he waited the last seconds to put haki in it, it's no proof at all of "invisible hakiiii"

Again, you're an ignoramus. There are 2 levels of Haki. Invisible and Black (Hardening). It's clear Sanji can use the invisible, but not the Hardened version.

There is no such thing except in you brain and you try to convince other and yourself this is reality. Plus you know you talk nonsense. There is indeed another level with black haki/armament haki. And the only one who displayed it is Katakuri during his fight with Luffy. It seems different, but before the anime version we still don't knwo how much different it is. (colour,brightness...)

So be less of a douche and admit what is Oda's word and what are your theories. Because i swear to you there is a gap.

I will add that haki mixed with colour of skin is DBZ shit. Imho he made a terrible mistake, in 20 years will have a Luffy lvl 5 red skin haki ultra sayan. And that the kinfd of shit who sells a lot maybe, but frankly for me it's disapointing and show a lack of imagination.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2018 ---

I'm pretty much expecting you to more or less claim that Bobby Funk's body has a weakness to powerful attacks despite it being as hard as steel when the reality is Sai attack power is simply stronger than Bobby Funk's body can handle.

No: with YOUR stupid logic you say this random unknown fodder is super powerfull because super resistant. We don't know anything about this guy, Oda never took the time to explain how he had this kinf of body in the first place...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

What? his leg is not full black like Sanji, we can see his skin, of course Chinjao's kid used "black" aramament haki agaisnt his father.
I don't know why you put "haki on the picture on the right, that's just his kick. YOU put "haki" on it but that's all. We did't know at this moment if he could use it or not.

Okay, well, it's not difficult.

Sai is regarded as a superior to his brother, Boo.

If Boo can use Armament Haki, it only makes sense that Sai can use it too.

And you're clearly not well read enough to have made the insight that Sai didn't have Black Armament until he fought with his father.

Point nonetheless is, Black Haki can be shown against Black backgrounds, so regardless of Sanji wearing Black pants, it's just an excuse and denial on your part.

4. Hahahaha...Kiri shigure.. Tashigi... The all point of this battle is that she can't use haki and is useless against Birdgirl...At this moment Monet dosn't control his own body thanks to Zoro's previous mind attack (because he is sooo badass). It's a normal hit, YOU, again only you, put haki on it.

You're clearly in denial here.

Her blade isn't black, and it's stated that she can indeed use Haki.

But good job claiming the point of this battle was to prove Tashigi can't use Haki despite the fact she can.

Luffy using Invisible Haki, but of course, keep deluding yourself.

Even the Anime also showcases Invisible Armament Haki.

No: with YOUR stupid logic you say this random unknown fodder is super powerfull because super resistant. We don't know anything about this guy, Oda never took the time to explain how he had this kinf of body in the first place...

Explaining how he has a hard body doesn't change the fact he has a hard body.

And you clearly are not well-read in the Manga as I said because Oda actually states why he has a hard body. He was born that way.

Nonetheless, the point you made about Sanji's weakness being against strong people is still for the record, an unintelligent remark. There's no such thing as having a weakness against strong people, it simply means being inferior.

 

[Copy Panda]

> omo lets check OP discussion
< someone has to defend the fact that there are two, displayed stages of haki

..