One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

one way or another, Whitebeard was still better than Akainu as Akainu kept doing down while Whitebeard stood and kept fighting. There's far too many proof and logic that we can safely assume Fujitora is far superior to Luffy, as are other admirals. Hell, Fujitora wasn't even allowed to take on Doflamingo because he was a shichibukai.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

I think Akainu would win against Big Mom.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think Akainu would win against Big Mom.

I agree.
Big Mom would be forced to fight an Admiral who has been proven to be able to fight for days at a time.

She wouldn't be able to eat during the fight: she would go insane, lose calories, weaken to famished husk and all while needing to fend off Akainu.

It would be a battle of Stamina and Endurance and she doesn't have it.

In her weakened state even the weakest Strawhats were able to fend her off(+Jinbe) what's she going to do if it's Akainu?

 

[nik87]

Well, I disagree.
After all, she is a Yonko and imo Yonkos > Admirals. If she isn't scared of threatening Kaido why would she bother with Akainu...

First of all, I think the duration of Aokiji's and Akainu's fight is exaggerated to hype them both up and to show how close their power level was. Took 10(?) days for the winner to emerge. Akainu fought 10 days with Aokiji but didnt stand 5 minutes when Whitebeard started to wipe the floor with him. Also, he survived Whitebeard simply because of the plot armor, imo, because Oda had plans for him.

I doubt anyone is able to fight for more than a day, such thing as Akainu vs Aokiji is just hype and exaggeration. BM would not have the problem with her hunger pangs in such a short time. She proved that she is an invincible fortress and nothing in WCI events even scratched her. Akainu may be badass when he fights inferior opponents but is very fragile when a Yonko gets him into the hands.

I wouldnt underestimate Big Mom because of her eating disorder and goofy character. I think she is terrifying, especially when she combines Prometheus with her and expands the sword hommie and i wonder how she can make use of Zeus in such form. Also, i think we only scratched the surface of her DF ability.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Who are you to say the fight was exaggerated, tho. It is a manga fact that they fought for days. What all due respect, just because you don't approve of it doesnt mean it can be debated.

As for Akainu vs Whitebeard: the collateral damage prevented them from going all out in a 1 v 1. We don't know how a 1 v 1 would go against the 2. Akainu and Aokiji went to a island far away from public where collateral damage could be avoided.

Fights for days isn't new to One Piece. Ace and Jinbei fought for 5 days (I think)
High level fighters have massive amounts of stamina.

And Big Mom did have hunger pangs... within hours of not getting Wedding Cake. That's in the manga. You can't refute that.

Sure she wasn't scratched in WCI but it's also true no one at Akainu's level was attacking her. Akainu would be able to dish out more power than every hit she recieved combined.

It's a fact that Big Mom isn't at full strength the longer she doesn't eat, and it's a fact that High level fighters can fight days on end.

Also, yeah Whitebeard got in a good hit on Akainu, but Akainu also continued to fight on.It wasn't until Shanks came that Akainu stood down.

most of your main point are your opinions and not actually what the manga has shown/stated

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 7, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 7, 2018 ---

why does this"Akainu vs BigMom" feel like dena vu? lol

I'm sure i've debated someone about this before....

Off Topic tho and pure speculation

Compared to the Strawhats, where fo you think the Former White beard Pirates rank IN COMPARISON to the Strawhats? Let's say the top 3 ( Marco, Jozu, Vista)

I wanna say Luffy>Marco, but Marco's healing factor and his experience might give him the edge.

Zoro<Jozu??? Big if, but this is put hype
so I'm thinking:


Lucy >= Marco
Jozu(purely for DF reasons)
Zoro
Vista
Jinbe>=Sanji

 

[nik87]

Its manga fact and exaggerated, the two arent arent mutually excluding. It should be debated because it will never happen again, not even with main character and such stamina doesnt exist.

After Ace died WB didnt hold back anymore and wrecked Akainu instantly and i doubt Akainu held back seeing what he was facing.

Ace and Jinbe is exaggeration as well. Luffy and Katakuri are higher level fighters with more stamina and they barely lasted how much? Almost half a day.
Marineford had tons of higher lvl fighters and they barely lasted few hours.

Big mom had a tantrum because the cake which she was looking forward to was destroyed. Its irrelevant when putting her to fight vs Akainu.

When WB was done with Akainu he wasnt able to get up and only after WB died the plot brought Akainu back to resume what he was doing.

Imo, Marco>Luffy=Jozu=Vista. Zoro is probably close to them but if he can not cut diamond he cant defeat jozu, more or less like vs mr 1.

 

[M3J]

Akainu fought 10 days with Aokiji but didnt stand 5 minutes when Whitebeard started to wipe the floor with him. Also, he survived Whitebeard simply because of the plot armor, imo, because Oda had plans for him.

Dude, Akainu kept taking damage and still came close to killing Jinbei and Luffy. He may have been dominated by Whitebeard, but what did he have to show for that? A bit of exhaustion. Plot armor, maybe, but Akainu was still moving and fighting in the end. Could have had someone else do what Akainu was doing.



In any case, if Big Mom was truly that weak, then the Marines would have made moves to take her out, or they'd have planned to keep the other Yonkou away while warring her. OR, they would have taken her out long ago. Though, they probably could take her out but fear other Emperors or enemies interfering or picking off the remains of the Marines force. Hell, Kaidou could have taken her on for the lulz and to take her down. Big Mom is still being underestimated.

 

[Pirate Queen]

No one is saying Big Mom is weak and I'm certainly not underestimating her... I learned my mistake last time.

@nik87 your wrong about Big Mom's tantrum as she also had a tantrum earlier that Jinbei had to rescue the BMP from early on at WCI. It wasn't JUST the wedding cake that pushed her off.

1 v 1. Akainu vs Big Mom, isn't the same as Big Mom Pirates vs Marines.

I didn't say Akainu No Diff's Big Mom, only that he would win. I expect to have Extreme Difficulty, but would eventually come out on top

If you want to dispute the manga that says they fought for days, that's on you (@nik87) But it seems odd to dispute something that was stated multiple times in the manga.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Big Mom may just havewhat it takes to inflict heavy damage on Akainu before the ten days run out, I think. Zeus and Prometheous seem to work better with prep. Her vs the Strawhats was kind of plot armory imo. However, I still think the fleet Admiral would come out on top. He took off half of whitebeard's face while Whitebeard disabled him for a few minutes by burrying him and giving him a concussion. I think in the long run the damage Akainu inflicts is a lot more lasting.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Big Mom may just havewhat it takes to inflict heavy damage on Akainu before the ten days run out, I think. Zeus and Prometheous seem to work better with prep. Her vs the Strawhats was kind of plot armory imo. However, I still think the fleet Admiral would come out on top. He took off half of whitebeard's face while Whitebeard disabled him for a few minutes by burrying him and giving him a concussion. I think in the long run the damage Akainu inflicts is a lot more lasting.

also, Big Mom can't last 10 days without eating...

 

[nik87]

Dude, Akainu kept taking damage and still came close to killing Jinbei and Luffy. He may have been dominated by Whitebeard, but what did he have to show for that? A bit of exhaustion. Plot armor, maybe, but Akainu was still moving and fighting in the end. Could have had someone else do what Akainu was doing.

It's beside the point. The point is that such long fights have hype purpose and are an exaggeration. 10 days? Pff, git gud. Dorry and Brogy are in life and death battle for 100 years and its still not over. Totally irrelevant.
Real fights, when you take hype and exaggeration away, dont last long, not even with main character.

your wrong about Big Mom's tantrum as she also had a tantrum earlier that Jinbei had to rescue the BMP from early on at WCI. It wasn't JUST the wedding cake that pushed her off.

We know how it started with the cake, we dont know how it started with croquembouche. The trigger may have been the same, maybe not. Let's take her tantrum away for a second, not that it makes her weaker anyway, at least not right away. We dont know if it would even occur in a serious fight vs Akainu.
Yes, the long fights have been stated multiple times, Aokiji vs Akainu, Jinbe vs Ace, Dorry vs Brogy, doesnt matter. Luffy vs Katakuri is a more realistic picture of how long the high tier fights last and thats with Oda asspulling Luffy to victory because he is MC.

Big Mom may just havewhat it takes to inflict heavy damage on Akainu before the ten days run out, I think. Zeus and Prometheous seem to work better with prep. Her vs the Strawhats was kind of plot armory imo. However, I still think the fleet Admiral would come out on top. He took off half of whitebeard's face while Whitebeard disabled him for a few minutes by burrying him and giving him a concussion. I think in the long run the damage Akainu inflicts is a lot more lasting.

Even if you take those 10 days seriously, just because Akainu fought Aokiji for so long doesn't mean he will last that much vs a Yonko. We saw how long he lasted against Whitebeard.

If we strip Akainu of the plot purposes to be the end opponent for Luffy, which would allow him to beat anyone on the way just to be the final opponent(one of them) i think he is inferior to any Yonko. Yes, my opinion totally and not a fact.

If you take a look at the balancing powers, the Marines mobilized 3 Admirals, fleet admiral, the hero of Marines and Shichibukais to oppose just 1 Yonko.
There are 3 more Yonkos for the pirate side and there are Kong, 5 elders, Imu, Cp0 for the WG side. We could scratch the Shichibukai since they are a lower tier, Mihawk aside.
It ends up with 4 Yonkos vs 3 admirals+fleet admiral+Garp+Sengoku+Kong+5 of the elders+Imu+whatever Cp0 strongest fighter is. That is 4 vs 14. If those 4 are balancing those 14 and other way around its pretty much obvious that Yonkos > Admirals.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

@nik87 : Why are you ignoring the fact that Akainu blew off half of Whitebeard's head and put a hole in his chest? From that encounter, it is clearly whitebeard who suffered heavier damage which contributed to his death.

Also stripping characters from their plot purposes is an imaginary impossible thing to do, which can't be acheived no matter how you go about it. So whatever sentence follows that premise is false.

 

[nik87]

@nik87 : Why are you ignoring the fact that Akainu blew off half of Whitebeard's head and put a hole in his chest? From that encounter, it is clearly whitebeard who suffered heavier damage which contributed to his death.

Also stripping characters from their plot purposes is an imaginary impossible thing to do, which can't be acheived no matter how you go about it. So whatever sentence follows that premise is false.

I am not ignoring anything. If you want more information, Whitebeard was sick, fought the entire battle with his heart stabbed, Akainu previously burned his insides already, Kizaru pierced him with his beam and that moment which you think highly of. All that taken into consideration, Whitebeard still wrecked Akainu instantly. That gap in their power is ridiculous to be even debating.

All these match ups we discuss are imaginary and most likely never will happen so if you cant imagine no plot purposes why even bother with any of it?

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

I am not ignoring anything. If you want more information, Whitebeard was sick, fought the entire battle with his heart stabbed, Akainu previously burned his insides already, Kizaru pierced him with his beam and that moment which you think highly of. All that taken into consideration, Whitebeard still wrecked Akainu instantly. That gap in their power is ridiculous to be even debating.

All these match ups we discuss are imaginary and most likely never will happen so if you cant imagine no plot purposes why even bother with any of it?

I think we're fundamentally disagreeing on the fact that Akainu was wrecked. Someone who could still fight Marco and most whitebeard commanders into submission to get to Luffy was not wrecked. He was burried and had to climb out.

Imagining your own additional scenarios is fine. Stripping away whatever you feel like stripping from the plot to serve your argument is not.

 

[nik87]

I think we're fundamentally disagreeing on the fact that Akainu was wrecked. Someone who could still fight Marco and most whitebeard commanders into submission to get to Luffy was not wrecked. He was burried and had to climb out.

Imagining your own additional scenarios is fine. Stripping away whatever you feel like stripping from the plot to serve your argument is not.

He wasnt able to stand up after Whitebeard's final hit and someone like that is supposed to last long/win against a Yonko? If he wasn't buried what do you think would have happened? He would give a death stare to WB and WB would die?

If you are unable to cancel out plot purposes then you are not trying to see clearly who is the stronger character. You only need to figure out who is supposed to last longer in the story and there you have your "stronger" character. Whitebeard's plot purpose was to die, Akainu's wasnt. He survived and fought Marco and the others simply because the plot purpose allowed him to do so.

You need to strip away the plot armors otherwise your approach to it is not objective and its more like looking an Akainu fan defend his favorite character.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

He wasnt able to stand up after Whitebeard's final hit and someone like that is supposed to last long/win against a Yonko? If he wasn't buried what do you think would have happened? He would give a death stare to WB and WB would die?

If you are unable to cancel out plot purposes then you are not trying to see clearly who is the stronger character. You only need to figure out who is supposed to last longer in the story and there you have your "stronger" character. Whitebeard's plot purpose was to die, Akainu's wasnt. He survived and fought Marco and the others simply because the plot purpose allowed him to do so.

You need to strip away the plot armors otherwise your approach to it is not objective and its more like looking an Akainu fan defend his favorite character.

Yeah, that tends to happen when you get hit by the strongest paramecia ever, something Big Mom doesn't have.

And no, he wouldn't give Whitebeard a death stare. He would blow off the other half of his brain. Or his arm this time. Or his knee. He doesn't have to beat Whitebeard to beat Big Mom though. What I'm trying to establish here is not that Akainu can beat any Yonko. It is that Akainu's fruit has the handy ability to handicape anyone who has the unfortunate fate of getting hit by it.

Well in that case why not just take the feats that happened as they are, analyse them individually and construct a vision of who can do what from what they already did, without bringing up plot at all?

The purpose for which I brought up Akainu vs Big Mom is actually to show how ridiculous it is to just put all admirals and all yonko in blanket statements such as yonko = admirals or yonko > admirals. So just to cut it short, you using whitebeard, the pirate kings rival to tell me Big Mom will win has 0 chance of convincing me because that's the very line of reasoning that I'm trying to prove wrong. Now if you have some feats from Yonko with powers that Big Mom has access to (i.e not the most unique paramecia ever that can generate tsunamis with a wave of a hand) please do let me know.

 

[nik87]

And no, he wouldn't give Whitebeard a death stare. He would blow off the other half of his brain. Or his arm this time. Or his knee. He doesn't have to beat Whitebeard to beat Big Mom though. What I'm trying to establish here is not that Akainu can beat any Yonko. It is that Akainu's fruit has the handy ability to handicape anyone who has the unfortunate fate of getting hit by it.

How do you imagine that from someone that cannot stand up? Big Mom is one of the people who are in the same tier as Whitebeard. WB in his prime may have been a tier above but in his old age he is most likely close to other Yonkos. Whitebeard wasnt presented like living fortress like Big Mom and Kaido are. Whitebeard didnt have the benefit of Armament haki. Akainu's DF is overhyped in pre-time-skip era. People will get hit by it and deal with it easier. Peoples heads wont be blown away by Akainus DF like it was in case with Whitebeard.

Well in that case why not just take the feats that happened as they are, analyse them individually and construct a vision of who can do what from what they already did, without bringing up plot at all?

You have to bring up the plot armors because certain things are only possible because of it and character may be overhyped due to the plot. The hard part is determining what is possible due to the plot armors and how to base the characters strength if you exclude the plot armor.

The purpose for which I brought up Akainu vs Big Mom is actually to show how ridiculous it is to just put all admirals and all yonko in blanket statements such as yonko = admirals or yonko > admirals. So just to cut it short, you using whitebeard, the pirate kings rival to tell me Big Mom will win has 0 chance of convincing me because that's the very line of reasoning that I'm trying to prove wrong. Now if you have some feats from Yonko with powers that Big Mom has access to (i.e not the most unique paramecia ever that can generate tsunamis with a wave of a hand) please do let me know.

Well you saw Akainu fight, saw him lose to a dying Whitebeard and you put him above a Yonko which you didnt see much of. We barely saw anything of BM's fighting capabilities, all her enemies in WCI were basically fodder to her, we didnt see her fight seriously. Its too early to claim Akainu would beat her until we see what she can actually do against a proper opponent.
I base my opinion on the fact that 4 monsters from the pirate side are balancing many more monsters from the WG side. What do you base Akainu>BM on? Have you actually seen her fighting against top tier, using her DF in combat aside from controlling hommies, have you included CoA as counter to Akainu's DF?

 

[LaGOAT]

This is how I see it akainu>big mom mainly becuase we don’t big Mom abilities to the fullest but I still believes that big Mom>=akainu big Mom is to be believe to be the weakest yonko while akainu is consider the strongest admiral (fleet adrimal)

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

How do you imagine that from someone that cannot stand up? Big Mom is one of the people who are in the same tier as Whitebeard. WB in his prime may have been a tier above but in his old age he is most likely close to other Yonkos. Whitebeard wasnt presented like living fortress like Big Mom and Kaido are. Whitebeard didnt have the benefit of Armament haki. Akainu's DF is overhyped in pre-time-skip era. People will get hit by it and deal with it easier. Peoples heads wont be blown away by Akainus DF like it was in case with Whitebeard.


You have to bring up the plot armors because certain things are only possible because of it and character may be overhyped due to the plot. The hard part is determining what is possible due to the plot armors and how to base the characters strength if you exclude the plot armor.


Well you saw Akainu fight, saw him lose to a dying Whitebeard and you put him above a Yonko which you didnt see much of. We barely saw anything of BM's fighting capabilities, all her enemies in WCI were basically fodder to her, we didnt see her fight seriously. Its too early to claim Akainu would beat her until we see what she can actually do against a proper opponent.
I base my opinion on the fact that 4 monsters from the pirate side are balancing many more monsters from the WG side. What do you base Akainu>BM on? Have you actually seen her fighting against top tier, using her DF in combat aside from controlling hommies, have you included CoA as counter to Akainu's DF?

You keep saying he couldn't stand up, which is true, because there was no ground to stand up on left, not because he was out of commission. Take a look at the panel: https://i5.mangareader.net/one-piece/575/one-piece-1210398.jpg

Not that I'm arguing he could win mind you, but you can't just shrug off the fact that Akainu took a gura punch to the head, then an island splitter to the gut and kept fighting. It's an incredible feat that Big Mom doesn't have.

Again talking about tiers. Whitebeard's 'tier', if there is such a thing, is made up of Roger and Whitebeard. You have no evidence whatsoever that Big Mom is there. I mean, if we get technical about it, we already have confirmation that she failed to be pirate king in Roger's Era and in Whitebeard's Era, so why would you assume she's as strong?

And I would not be so quick to assume Big Mom is as durable as Kaido. Kaido was presented as both completely immortal and the strongest who will win any 1v1. Big Mom was presented as someone who is as tough and big as the giants (like if a giant actually became a top tier). Though yes, her body is probably more durable than plain humans like Whitebeard and Shanks.

And I don't see where you got this idea that WB couldn't use Armament. I mean, how did he hurt Akainu then? The admirals used armament to defend too, so all of the possibilities for armament were well established back then.

Well, this plot armor thing seems irrelevant now tbh. But still, you can ignore the hype too along with the possibilities for future plot if you focus on feats. We're kind of already doing it.

Yeah I don't think qualifying whitebeard as "dying" in his last fight with Akainu is accurate. He was very energetic. If anything those moments vs Akainu were the closest we've seen him to ignoring his sickness all together. Which makes perfect sense given that Akainu had just encured his wrath by killing Ace. I'd be more inclined to think he was close to his prime power in those moments.

I base my opinion on the same thing actually, among a plethora of other facts and feats from the manga. And yes, haki would work. And I have no doubt that she will be able to defend herself from most of his strikes, just like he'll be able to defend from most of hers, but when the hit lands, she's going to lose a body part, and he's going to tank standard damage. It happened to Whitebeard and it happened to Aokiji.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Even among the Yonko, Whitebeard was extraordinary. Comparing him to the other Yonko is I'll advised. The only reason Whotebeard didnt become Pirate King after Roger's death was because he both didnt want the title and was waiting for Ace's time to become the Pirate King.

Even sick, whitebeard was beyond the others