Discussion New Roles and New Rules Suggestion Thread

[GrySun]

Submissions for new roles need to follow the next format in order to be considered:

I. [Place Holder Name]

II. [Affiliation]

III. [Short Description]

IV. [Long Description/Idea/Premise/Scope]

V. [Priority/RoleType/Interactions/other Specifics]

Spoiler: Examples of Approved roles

I. Troublemaker

II. Town

III. Can once per game make a Day phase lynch be the top 2 voted people instead of regular 1 top voted person. Every player has 2 votes but cannot vote the same player twice.

IV. PMs the host on the night before the day he wishes to use his power on. Host announces at start of day that the 2 top voted players will be lynched.
Everyone gets 2 votes that they can use on 2 individual players. Both can be moved once like usual. Example:
!votekill1 PlayerX
!votekill2 PlayerY
!votelock2 (locks on PlayerY).

Any other format is also fine as long as players specify who they are voting and if it's a new vote or they are changing their first one.

V. Doesn't have a Priority, happens at the end of night after all other actions. Doesn't target another player. Primary role.

Since it happens at the end of a phase, the player can be both blocked and killed to prevent it happening.

I. Psychiatrist

II. Townie

III. The Psychiatrist investigates one person per night phase to see if the player has a Secondary Role. They get a "Your target has a secondary role" if that is the case, and a "Your target does not have a secondary role" if it's not. The Psychiatrist does not find out the allegiance of the target.

IV. It's a counter for scum secondaries without outright revealing them, leaving room for guess work and player reading.

V. Priority 2, Primary Role.

Current roles Approved for testing here

Rules on including those in a game:

• A host can take any of these roles and test them in their game. Depending on results from testing the role it will either be included into the Role list or need more changes/testing.
• A host at the very least has to announce in the opening post of the game that new roles are being tested, or alternatively even more specifically reveal the roles that are being tested.

Link to the last update post with the roles that are either close to approval or were not approved: here.

 

[GrySun]

So... let‘s see

Therapist (Townie) A role that could change a sanity of a certain role with after some pre-requisite
Open for suggestions for this role. My initial pitch would be that roles with sanity could seek help to the Therapist, if the said player managed to identify the Therapist, the player would begin a therapy session and will get his/her sanity changed over a period of time. The Therapist would not be informed of the player's affiliation, nor his/her current sanity

Don‘t like this. Sanities are something a host considers when making a setup. If you could change something useful to useless or other way around then it‘d be quite a headache, not to mention it most of the time not being a good pro-town role unless it actually changes a useless sanity into a useful one. Changing sane-insane is pointless for Dets, could be awful for the Apprentice/Town regardless of the switch, and is only useful for making insane Doc sane.

Alcoholic (Townie) Passive Role. The Alcoholic will be a constant presence in the Bar Keeper's bar, meaning instead of being able to invite 3/4/5 players the Bar Keeper could only invite 2/3/4 to the bar since the Alcoholic will be occupying one slot. After a certain amount of presence in the Bar Keeper's bar, The Bar Keeper would be entitled to bar/ban the Alcoholic to his bar. The Bar Keeper will be able to invite 3/4/5 players once the Alcoholic was barred.

Honestly don‘t see what the point of this role is? How does it impact the game, or is fun to play?

Witch Hunter (Townie) Night Role. If the Witch Hunter was able to find Witch, the Witch will automatically be lynched in the next day phase and won't be able to curse a player. The Witch Hunter will have two attempts to find the witch.

Considering the Witch is a townie role, including a townie role to prevent a townie killing role seems very counter intuitive.

Pimp (Townie) Target Diverter. The Prostitute would have no choice but to obey the Pimp and would have to target the certain player that the Pimp assigned. The Prostitute and the Pimp doesn't know each other's identity. If the Prostitute was able to identify the Pimp, the Prostitute would be able to leave the Pimp's agency and will the targets that the Prostitute selected will no longer be diverted.

So basically a player who picks the Prostitute actions instead of the Prostitute player. Maybe if it affected Escorts too I could see some use, but this way it‘s just more ways for town to screw with each other.

Coast Guard (Townie) The Pirate/Mafia Pirate will be arrested/killed if he/she targets the Coast Guard.

Pirate/Mafia Pirate already die when targeting a non-townie, think that‘s enough difficulty for them. And Pirate sucks anyway. Could be a way to neutralize a Mafia Pirate by baiting some good role, but so far Mafia Pirate was never so good to warrant a counter like this.
Sounds like a way too specific PGO.

The Godfather (Mafia) An alternate version of the Mafia Boss. The Godfather will be given an opportunity to swap the roles of his Mafia Members by the Host before the game starts/Day Phase 1.
Example: Initial distribution of Mafia Roles (randomized from the host): gnut (Mafia Godfather), Mazino (Mafia Gambler), Charlie (Assassin) xnut (Mafia Janitor)
gnut's redistribution of roles (Mafia Godfather) Charlie (Mafia Janitor) xnut (Mafia Gambler) Mazino (Assassin)

This one is actually not that bad an idea. For small mafia teams it‘s pretty useless, but in bigger games with 5-6 members it can be a very handy tool. But would need changes like letting it be done 1-time at any Day Phase, not limited to 1, since at the start there‘s little reason to switch anything around, unless a mafia is getting lynched and you‘re saving his role.
Interesting concept, but still needs some work. Neutral from me.

Mafia Mastermind (Mafia) When there's a Mastermind on the side of the mafia, the mafia team will have an opportunity to have a discussion before the first Day Phase starts.

Think it‘s more interesting to force everyone to go through a day without info first, or if the host wants to pull something like this he could start the game on a night phase, but that‘s more balance concerns than just letting the mafia team chat. Don‘t like it much.

Bounty Hunter (Townie)
Night Action - Can hunt a target, has a 50% chance of killing it and a 50% chance of getting killed. If the BH kills a townie, he receives no reward. If he kills a Mafia or 3rd role, he gets an extra anonymous vote in the following day phase.

An okay-ish spin on the Ninja suggestion you had before. A sneaky night killer is interesting and this option I like more than the Ninja, but is less cool than the openness of the Cowboy. Neutral on this, but interested. But concerning that a Doc on him would remove any and all risk, while Martyr on Cowboy still has one person die.

Mastermind (3rd Role)
Before the Game starts the Mastermind gets told what 3rd roles are in the game. His goal is to unite the 3rd roles under his banner and lead them to victory. Each night the Mastermind can recruit somebody, if it is a 3rd role it will join his league as the 3rd role it is, but with the new goal that the league has to win by outnumbering the other factions. If it is a non-3rd role, the Mastermind kills that person. If he targets either the Mentor/Mentee both get recruited at once. Sk keeps his personal killing action as does Santa handing out presents till he has none left. The League has no League kill action like the Mafia does.

Sounds pretty OP to me, and not sure how to balance a game around a mafia group and several third parties that can be recruited into their own big group, or if not have those TPs + the Mastermind all kill individually. Too many kills each night. Only somewhat doable in very large games, and even then the balance is too shaky for me to predict properly what can happen.

Shouldn't we have a system where the majority of the (townie) kills/deaths happen by consequence instead of choice?

How would that work, and why should we have that?

Ghoul (Mafia)
Night Action - Either eats a deceased Mafia active role or use the previously eaten Mafia role's action once before he can eat again. The Ghoul cannot eat and use the eaten action at the same Night Phase. If he kills somebody as Janitor, the kill remains hidden till the Ghoul dies.

I like this version more than all the previous ones, including the one before that let him eat TP roles. I‘d Approve this for testing, I see lots of fun possibilities with this one, though he can‘t do anything until more mafia roles die, but in games where a mafia team is balanced around having one specific role, Ghoul is a good backup. Very good in longer and bigger games too.

Mafia Doc approval when?

Bounty Hunter (3rd Role)
Night Action - The BH hunts down the Mafia and other 3rd roles. He can chose a target at night and kill it. If the target was a townie, he cannot perform his kill action the next night. If the BH manages to kill 3 Mafia/3rd Roles by himself, he wins the game.

I like this one, though unsure if 3 is a good number for too small or too big games, so may need some scaling, or simply hosts not using him in small games. And even if he fails and all other non-townies die by town lynches or other deaths, he still can win by survivig days and killing every 2nd night, albeit low chances but doable.
Still unsure about 3 or 4 being a better number, since in very big games many players are non-town so his odds aren‘t bad, but depends a lot on the setup. Would give this my approval for testing.

Shapeshifter (3rd Role)
Night Action - The Shapeshifter can either hide behind a target or kill a target and replace it with an Illusion. The Shapeshifter can at day tell his Illusions via Host who they should vote for if he wants to. The chosen players getting the PM from the Host with the name he must vote for, cannot associate themselves with the pm given by Host. If they slip up they gets three Penalty Votes on themselves. If the Shapeshifter and his Illusions manages to outnumber the rest of the living players, the Shapeshifter wins.

Illusion (2nd role)
Replaces the target's role without the target knowing it. The player can still write and vote but his actions will also fail to get any results. If an active action is used on the Illusion, the Illusion dies and shatters, revealed as Illusion. If the Illusion receives a pm by the Shapeshifter via Host for his vote's target he has to follow it, otherwise he can vote as he pleases. If the Shapeshifter dies all Illusions die and shatter at the same time.

I actually like this less than the Shapeshifter we had before. Illusions‘ votes suddenly do count again in this version, and the vote can be controlled by SS. This gives SS not only night survivability but at day too. Too strong survivability of his, while his win condition is already better than of all other TPs if he gets at least 2 Illusions. If you want to change SS around more then we‘ll have to remove it from approved role list until everything‘s decided on it.

Well, the Illusions are part of the Shapeshifter so I would say yes. I mean, they would win without knowing it and it could be a mix of townies, Mafias and possible other 3rd roles but yes they would win.

Good idea about making the Shapeshifter hide behind Illusions! Fits its name and would make it actually necessary to kill somebody to even have a place to hide and since one place to hide might be too risky the Shapeshifter could be prone to get some more hiding places even if it means risking blowing his cover. Also I did wrote that Illusions are basically blocked as they get no results from their actions. Given what you said though you mean that the Illusion is more like "enchanted"`? In that case wouldn't it actually be good to make the turned aware that they are under an Illusion but that they like it as in they changed team and became a 3rd role in this case an "illusion" or better said are under an illusion?

Well, if you want less killing roles (which is real hard for 3rd role I tell ya, though the Shapeshifter could be changed into more of a recruiting and less of a killing one I suppose) I would have the idea of a Townie Deputy who can gets recruited aka revealed instead of killed if killed by Badass Cowboy, Vigilante Townie or Mafia Assassin. Basically a recruit role that runs counter to some but not all killing roles.

Liking the role even less with these extra descriptions

Hey, Hosts! You guys think we can try out the Old Cat Lady Townie role,please? That one had a lot of support!

It was denied in the last big update that showed what got approved/disapproves, if you missed that. Maybe should sticky.

Regarding your latest OCL suggestions, it still feels too strong and sorta trivializes the Mortician, but better than the suggestions before. The 2nd suggestion is basically identical to a role that‘s already been suggested(and approved for testing too I think?), a reverse Spy. James stealing role ideas?

Drunkard (Mafia)
The Drunkard will at night replace one of the invites from the Barkeeper without the Barkeeper's knowledge.

Fighting randomness with more randomness, I see no strategic value here.

Just you know, for a certain troll host to consider as an option.

Don‘t think it‘s a good idea to make roles aimed at just one host Should be relevant roles anyone would want to use if they want to.

Secret Service (Townie)
Night Action - The Secret Service chooses a target to protect. He will then block all actions used on that target in the same night phase. If one of those actions is a kill action, the Secret Service dies instead of the target.

Not a bad counter-blocker at all actually. Interesting, though could be too strong if used well. And a direct Bodyguard upgrade Neutral because of that.

 

[James Rye]

So... let‘s see

Yeah, let's see what roles survives the Light of the (Gry)Sun!

An okay-ish spin on the Ninja suggestion you had before. A sneaky night killer is interesting and this option I like more than the Ninja, but is less cool than the openness of the Cowboy. Neutral on this, but interested. But concerning that a Doc on him would remove any and all risk, while Martyr on Cowboy still has one person die.

Well, the BH (townie) got replaced by the Trigger-happy Cop (Townie):

Trigger-happy Cop (Townie)
Night Action - Can shoot a target, has a 50% chance of killing it and a 50% chance of getting killed. If the ThC kills a townie, he cannot perform his action in the next night as a consequence. If he kills a Mafia/3rd role, the ThC gets an autonomous vote as reward.

Similar to the other version just now that he basically has an auto-block on his kill action if he kills a townie at night which is basically the risk of using the action now. I am not really concerned with that fear because a Doc could without a det never be quite sure if he is really protecting a Trigger-happy Cop or a Mafia acting as one. Heck, if he was really unlucky the Mafia Pirate stole the role, killed the previous role holder and now acts the role out.

Sounds pretty OP to me, and not sure how to balance a game around a mafia group and several third parties that can be recruited into their own big group, or if not have those TPs + the Mastermind all kill individually. Too many kills each night. Only somewhat doable in very large games, and even then the balance is too shaky for me to predict properly what can happen.

Yeah, I got that covered: A league of 2-3 3rd Roles is not that powerful and if we add more 3rd role that cannot kill, like the Buccaneer idea, Rouge Barkeeper or the Beauty and her Beauty Lover ideas for example then it can work. I also got the idea of an Underworld Doctor (3rd role) who protects others at night but at the cost of them being sickly in the next day phase aka not being able to vote. Unlike Mafia the Mastermind (3rd role) will need a while till he finds other 3rd roles to increase his chances of winning the game and till then some of them could die or he dies himself. So it does not sound OP to me, if anything it sounds like a legit chance for 3rd roles to win if the MM gets lucky and finds the sole other 3rd role in the game or if the game is big enough the sole other 2 3rd roles. This role depends largely if we can increase the 3rd role pool, else it has to stay with MM and SK teaming up and doing two coordinated kills at night hoping they won't get killed by Mafia themselves or by townies.

So I disagree with the OP fear for this role because the searching part could take up all game for this role.

I like this version more than all the previous ones, including the one before that let him eat TP roles. I‘d Approve this for testing, I see lots of fun possibilities with this one, though he can‘t do anything until more mafia roles die, but in games where a mafia team is balanced around having one specific role, Ghoul is a good backup. Very good in longer and bigger games too.

Noice, let's go, boys! Ghoul is nearly about to get tested, I can feel it in my bones! <3

Mafia Doc approval when?

I am waiting months for that one...

I like this one, though unsure if 3 is a good number for too small or too big games, so may need some scaling, or simply hosts not using him in small games. And even if he fails and all other non-townies die by town lynches or other deaths, he still can win by survivig days and killing every 2nd night, albeit low chances but doable.
Still unsure about 3 or 4 being a better number, since in very big games many players are non-town so his odds aren‘t bad, but depends a lot on the setup. Would give this my approval for testing.

How about this: BH (3rd role) has to kill half of the other Mafia/3rd roles in the game. So if it is only him and 4 Mafias = 2 Mafia kills = victory. Or like you said, do a SK if the townies kill too many mafias too quickly. If it is him, a Santa and a SK and 2 3 Mafia teams (3-3-3), then he has to kill 4 Mafia/3rd roles where he can either win by 4 Mafia kills or a mix of Mafia and 3rd role kills. With that scaling the BH should have a win chance even in smaller games plus this way the BH never really knows how many mafias/3rd roles are in the game all he knows is that there is a number x of which he has to kill half of and that could be any number for all he knows whereas with 3 he could count his chances of success depending on the numbers he killed and the townies/other mafia/3rd roles killed so far.

I really wanna see this role in the game. I bet it will be lots of fun to have a 3rd role designed to hunt down Mafias/other 3rd roles while trying to dodge the town folks. xD

I actually like this less than the Shapeshifter we had before. Illusions‘ votes suddenly do count again in this version, and the vote can be controlled by SS. This gives SS not only night survivability but at day too. Too strong survivability of his, while his win condition is already better than of all other TPs if he gets at least 2 Illusions. If you want to change SS around more then we‘ll have to remove it from approved role list until everything‘s decided on it.

It was just an idea because people said the killing and hiding part was too strong.

Liking the role even less with these extra descriptions

I get it.

So how about making SS a kill 3rd role who can only hide behind his illusions but unlike hider can basically jump between Illusions when hiding if they "get killed" aka shattered by simple actions. This way the SS would want lots of Illusions to have "many hiding places" if he decides to rather hide than kill to get another hiding spot. It could show that the SS is a slippery fella and still give him risks when hiding as not a kill action kills him as well as with the hider but all kinds of actions. So if he got unlucky and one of his 3 Illusion hiding spots got killed by mafia, another investigated by Det and another protected by Doc and he decided to hide that night then he dies just like a hider would as all his hiding spots got destroyed in one night. This would give the SS some interesting choices as he could try to target all active role claims to reduce the number of actions used at night but make it obvious that something is up if those players start saying that they can#t get any results for days. Or he goes for passive claims and actions like Doc roles where it is not quite obvious if your role had an effect or not. And finding docs is pretty darn hard. This would make this role a "killing hider" who has to plan ahead for who he can hide behind whereas the hider has free range on whoever he wants to hide behind as long as said target does not get killed, which is why hiders love mafia and BPs and the like to hide behind.

It was denied in the last big update that showed what got approved/disapproves, if you missed that. Maybe should sticky.

Wait, what?!

Regarding your latest OCL suggestions, it still feels too strong and sorta trivializes the Mortician, but better than the suggestions before. The 2nd suggestion is basically identical to a role that‘s already been suggested(and approved for testing too I think?), a reverse Spy. James stealing role ideas?

Wait, what?! Who suggested a reverse Spy and why haven't I heard/read anything about it? Who had that idea besides me?

Fighting randomness with more randomness, I see no strategic value here.

Don‘t think it‘s a good idea to make roles aimed at just one host Should be relevant roles anyone would want to use if they want to.

It was a joke. But it isn't really randomness, if anything it cuts down the randomness as for the Host the BK has -1 invites each night, so if the BK invites 3 people he basically just invites 2 and one of the 3 get replaced by the Drunkard. Ofc we should add that is the Drunkard is already invited he cannot invite himself into the bar again. But the plan is for Mafia to have a role that partly "blocks" the BK and reduce his effectiveness without the BK noticing till he finds out due role reveal that one of his customers has always been a sneaky Drunkard.

Not a bad counter-blocker at all actually. Interesting, though could be too strong if used well. And a direct Bodyguard upgrade Neutral because of that.

Noice! I knew you would not hate on this role! It is a cool blocking role which could cut both ways depending on who uses what action on the Secret Service's protection target.

Thanks for the role read, Gry! I hope besides you, Panda, Vandred and Evil I get one more host reading and giving some approvals or neutrals or rejections to my roles I proposed so we can go on testing!

Also here is another role/roles:

Circus Director (Townie)
Night Action - Targets another player who's action target will get randomized by Host as result.

Basically a 100% random redirect role, whereas the Bk has a 33% chance on that to happen. Ofc is 100% is too strong we can reduce it to 50% and have the other 50% failure be a notice that somebody tried to distract you or something like that.

Conman (Mafia)
Night Action - Targets another player who's action target will get randomized by Host as result. Has a 50% chance of success. If he fails the targets gets a pm by Host that he was a redirection target.

Same Role for Mafia, could be dangerous for them as the random redirect could hit one of their own for all their know. Am not putting much hope into those roles, but given how well-liked and often used the BK role has been the past games, a role working soleley on redirecting could be worth it as long as it is done randomly to prevent OPness by redirecting to desired targets.

 

[GrySun]

Wait, what?!

This post here. Seems you missed it.

Gonna answer the rest another time when I have more time. Later I should also sticky a post keeping track of number of host approvals for roles + testable roles.

 

[James Rye]

This post here. Seems you missed it.

Gonna answer the rest another time when I have more time. Later I should also sticky a post keeping track of number of host approvals for roles + testable roles.

Damn, Beauty and her Lover also weren't approved, I liked that relationship role.

 

[GrySun]

Damn, Beauty and her Lover also weren't approved, I liked that relationship role.

The concept was interesting, but from a host perspective it was impossible to execute a game with those. Too many problems that needed to be fixed iirc.

 

[James Rye]

The concept was interesting, but from a host perspective it was impossible to execute a game with those. Too many problems that needed to be fixed iirc.

What if we change it that the rivals 2nd roles are handed out at the start and instead of knowing who the other rival is, they don't and instead of killing they have to find the Beauty kinda like Third Lovers? And that the 2nd role would work like a threesome candidate in case the first rival who did found the Beauty and had his role changed died due whatever reason?

 

[GrySun]

Trigger-happy Cop (Townie)
Night Action - Can shoot a target, has a 50% chance of killing it and a 50% chance of getting killed. If the ThC kills a townie, he cannot perform his action in the next night as a consequence. If he kills a Mafia/3rd role, the ThC gets an autonomous vote as reward.

Similar to the other version just now that he basically has an auto-block on his kill action if he kills a townie at night which is basically the risk of using the action now. I am not really concerned with that fear because a Doc could without a det never be quite sure if he is really protecting a Trigger-happy Cop or a Mafia acting as one. Heck, if he was really unlucky the Mafia Pirate stole the role, killed the previous role holder and now acts the role out.

Would need more specification, like if he's allowed to claim that role. If so then no point in the vote being "anonymous" Think this is a weaker version of Cowboy, but unlike cowboy doesn't confirm himself. Only needs to solve the issue with his anonymous vote helping him self-confirm, since like that it defeats the purpose.

Yeah, I got that covered: A league of 2-3 3rd Roles is not that powerful and if we add more 3rd role that cannot kill, like the Buccaneer idea, Rouge Barkeeper or the Beauty and her Beauty Lover ideas for example then it can work. I also got the idea of an Underworld Doctor (3rd role) who protects others at night but at the cost of them being sickly in the next day phase aka not being able to vote. Unlike Mafia the Mastermind (3rd role) will need a while till he finds other 3rd roles to increase his chances of winning the game and till then some of them could die or he dies himself. So it does not sound OP to me, if anything it sounds like a legit chance for 3rd roles to win if the MM gets lucky and finds the sole other 3rd role in the game or if the game is big enough the sole other 2 3rd roles. This role depends largely if we can increase the 3rd role pool, else it has to stay with MM and SK teaming up and doing two coordinated kills at night hoping they won't get killed by Mafia themselves or by townies.

So I disagree with the OP fear for this role because the searching part could take up all game for this role.

We'd need to add more TPs just for this one TP role though Even if searching takes up all game, he'd still be killing normally like an SK. Won't be pushing for confirming this role for the time being, will need to ask other hosts for this. Maybe sometime later James.

Noice, let's go, boys! Ghoul is nearly about to get tested, I can feel it in my bones! <3

I sure would test it in one of my slightly bigger games, I see potential for some fun.

How about this: BH (3rd role) has to kill half of the other Mafia/3rd roles in the game. So if it is only him and 4 Mafias = 2 Mafia kills = victory. Or like you said, do a SK if the townies kill too many mafias too quickly. If it is him, a Santa and a SK and 2 3 Mafia teams (3-3-3), then he has to kill 4 Mafia/3rd roles where he can either win by 4 Mafia kills or a mix of Mafia and 3rd role kills. With that scaling the BH should have a win chance even in smaller games plus this way the BH never really knows how many mafias/3rd roles are in the game all he knows is that there is a number x of which he has to kill half of and that could be any number for all he knows whereas with 3 he could count his chances of success depending on the numbers he killed and the townies/other mafia/3rd roles killed so far.

I really wanna see this role in the game. I bet it will be lots of fun to have a 3rd role designed to hunt down Mafias/other 3rd roles while trying to dodge the town folks. xD

Not sure about the scaling just yet, but that one can be thought about more until it's confirmed+tested.

It was just an idea because people said the killing and hiding part was too strong.

I'd rather a third party become resistant to night kills than to lynches. Days are the primary gameplay of this game, being able to mass-corrupt votes at day is a bit too cheap.
People complained more about description being too long, tho not sure how to improve it more.

So how about making SS a kill 3rd role who can only hide behind his illusions but unlike hider can basically jump between Illusions when hiding if they "get killed" aka shattered by simple actions. This way the SS would want lots of Illusions to have "many hiding places" if he decides to rather hide than kill to get another hiding spot. It could show that the SS is a slippery fella and still give him risks when hiding as not a kill action kills him as well as with the hider but all kinds of actions. So if he got unlucky and one of his 3 Illusion hiding spots got killed by mafia, another investigated by Det and another protected by Doc and he decided to hide that night then he dies just like a hider would as all his hiding spots got destroyed in one night. This would give the SS some interesting choices as he could try to target all active role claims to reduce the number of actions used at night but make it obvious that something is up if those players start saying that they can#t get any results for days. Or he goes for passive claims and actions like Doc roles where it is not quite obvious if your role had an effect or not. And finding docs is pretty darn hard. This would make this role a "killing hider" who has to plan ahead for who he can hide behind whereas the hider has free range on whoever he wants to hide behind as long as said target does not get killed, which is why hiders love mafia and BPs and the like to hide behind.

Maybe explain it in easier words what exactly changes compared to how he was defined in that Approval post? Hard to keep track like this.

It was a joke. But it isn't really randomness, if anything it cuts down the randomness as for the Host the BK has -1 invites each night, so if the BK invites 3 people he basically just invites 2 and one of the 3 get replaced by the Drunkard. Ofc we should add that is the Drunkard is already invited he cannot invite himself into the bar again. But the plan is for Mafia to have a role that partly "blocks" the BK and reduce his effectiveness without the BK noticing till he finds out due role reveal that one of his customers has always been a sneaky Drunkard.

I don't see the usefulness for mafia, apart from making something random more random. Changes nothing James, except for telling mafia there's a BK. Eh.

Circus Director (Townie)
Night Action - Targets another player who's action target will get randomized by Host as result.

Isn't that basically Hypnotist? Which used to be in the game, then removed for good reasons. It's neither pro-mafia nor pro-town. It's just extra rng for little reason imo. Unless you can say at least one of the two criteria I review roles by. How fun is it to play, and how useful is it for it's side? Because I don't see neither.

Conman (Mafia)
Night Action - Targets another player who's action target will get randomized by Host as result. Has a 50% chance of success. If he fails the targets gets a pm by Host that he was a redirection target.

Just a much shittier Escort. Better as a mafia role than a town role, but still don't like it. BK isn't liked for his redirect, but his role reveal. Block and Redirect are penalties for what is essentially Mafia Det for town.

What if we change it that the rivals 2nd roles are handed out at the start and instead of knowing who the other rival is, they don't and instead of killing they have to find the Beauty kinda like Third Lovers? And that the 2nd role would work like a threesome candidate in case the first rival who did found the Beauty and had his role changed died due whatever reason?

Right now I don't remember Beauty and the problems, but think from a hosting perspective it wasn't doable.

 

[James Rye]

@Elusia and @Lambu and whoever else approved of the decision to let the Shapeshifter be tried out once again: THANK YOU SO MUCH! That was an epic reveal I did not expect at all in this game! <3

 

[GrySun]

This is Santa as he is defined right now:

• Santa Claus (Third Party): A Third Party role, whose goal it is to successfully target 5 players in order to bring them presents. Santa Claus cannot choose one player twice. He wins the game, when he sent out all five of his presents. The presents are determind by the host at the beginning of the game. Santa does not know which presents he is handing out.

After having the role last game I think the way Santa works right now is very luck dependant and not fun at all to play, mainly because Santa doesn't know what presents he is handing out. This makes the Santa playstyle always the same, try to lay low while hoping you don't get killed or lynched, then somehow win with whatever your presents do. It would be a lot more fun if he actively knew what he is handing out, so he could strategize more properly about who to give which present.

I propose one of the following 2 changes(change is bolded):

A)

• Santa Claus (Third Party): A Third Party role, whose goal it is to successfully target 5 players in order to bring them presents. Santa Claus cannot choose one player twice. He wins the game, when he sent out all five of his presents. The presents are determind by the host at the beginning of the game. Santa knows all the presents and can give them out in any order he wishes.

This basically would tell Santa in his PM what his 5 presents do, and it's up to him which present he wants to give to which player on which night. Is very interactive for the Santa player as he can use what he thinks is a good thing to do at that point in the game.

Downside here is though that up til now hosts always assigned the 5 presents in a clever way+order, and this way the order isn't kept. So alternatively:

B)

• Santa Claus (Third Party): A Third Party role, whose goal it is to successfully target 5 players in order to bring them presents. Santa Claus cannot choose one player twice. He wins the game, when he sent out all five of his presents. The presents are determind by the host at the beginning of the game. Santa knows all the presents he has and in which order he is giving them out.

Not as much freedom as option A, but keeps the presents-order set by the host and Santa still knows what he does in a given night which makes it more fun to decide who to give a gift to. For example if a gift poisons a player he would know he can poison someone that night and can decide who to poison, rather than deciding who to randomly give a gift to(which is the current Santa's boring night-planning).

Thoughs? @Vandred @Farfalla @Lambu @Hardy @Xadyu Anyone else who isn't a host can also say their thoughts.

Personally prefer A, but B is fine too. Anything that makes Santa not as boring as it currently is, and as a TP role it really shouldn't be.

 

[Farfalla]

Well, due to the reasons you presented yourself, I believe B is a good middle ground between giving Santa a bit more enjoyment while playing and allowing the hosts to control the outcomes possibilities chaos a bit, so I'd go with that one.

 

[Xadyu]

Personally I liked Option B the best out of both. The role sounds boring as hell in it's original form because .. well, you said it. Having some actual knowledge definitely changes for the player, but I wouldn't want to give the role too much freedom, haven't heard of this role before, but giving him 5 "one-shot powers" that the player can use as he sees fit seems a bit too much for me.

The host can decide on the five gifts, randomize the order and tell the player, sure. That way it keeps the role interactive enough for the player to be interested, and doesn't make the role too powerful. Timing and strategy are going to be instrumental for the role which makes it a much, much more interesting role to have (for me).

 

[Vandred]

For example if a gift poisons a player he would know he can poison someone that night and can decide who to poison, rather than deciding who to randomly give a gift to(which is the current Santa's boring night-planning).

On an unrelated note... I'm for full freedom. I prefer giving Santa some more power to choose by himself how he wants to influence the game over making him follow what the hosts prepared by only letting him choose who gets what. That sounds a lot more fun to me, at least, on top of providing more chances for Santa to screw up on his own (which is, in my opinion, part of what the basis of MG should be - being responsible for your own mistakes and successes, at least as far as your actions and contributions are concerned).

So option A. Option B is way better than the currently version though, if the choice were between those two.

 

[Lambu]

B would make the role much better than it is now, but being able to choose the presents by yourself would make the role infinitely more versatile.
Sure it would make Santa even more of a wild card and less predictable for a host, but also more fun to play. It would just come to the host in question to give him balanced gifts depending on the game structure.

So I vote for A.

 

[James Rye]

@GrySun I like B most but why not change it like this:

Santa Claus (Third Party): A Third Party role, whose goal it is to successfully target 5 players in order to bring them presents. Santa Claus cannot choose one player twice. He wins the game, when he sent out all five of his presents. The presents are determind by the host at the beginning of the game. Santa knows all the presents he has and can chose freely what colored present he hands out in whatever order he wants. He does however not know exactly what present holds what gift.

It would be much closer to my first original idea of Santa Claus which I called "Blind Santa Claus" who basically lost his list and now has 5 different colored presents but does not know what gift is in which present. So he decides the order of what he hands out at night but "blind". As in first night he can hand over either a red, yellow, green, blue or white wrapped present. He knows what 5 presents he has, however he does not know in which present is what. That is the kinda fun part I imagined that role to have back then, as in there being one present the Santa would know would risk his own role, I think I called it a Santa Tracker or something in 2015.
This way Santa would have more knowledge about his presents and more freedom in handing them out but also a sort of "random" note to it as he, unlike the hosts ofc, is unaware what he hands out in each night. Expect ofc one is like a poison or a NVD so that he knows what he can scratch of the list for the remaining gifts as he would want to hand out the one present working against him as late as possible.

What do you think? It does give the Santa role more power like you wanted but at the same time ties his hand as both his knowledge and unknowing makes him a bit unpredictable at the start, even for himself. Which I'd imagine as a pleasing thrill as at the start he has a 20% chance to hand over the "bad gift" that might get him found out while he has 4 others of which he knows the effects but can't be quite sure what exactly he gave to who. Giving a Santa free reign over such One Shot Powers is too strong for my taste as some like the poison or the Bullet-proof amulet are very powerful and game-changing depending on who get those presents. Like I told you "imagine if you had handed over the amulet first and the poison much later", the last game could have gone incredibly different if a det got hit by the amulet and not the poison.

Edit: I also take it as personal offense that you find my Santa boring (after you won with it and it is the first TP victory ever in this forum) after I HAD to dumb it down to make it what it became to get enough hosts approvals to get it into the game. I also wanted Santa to chose freely, I just didn't wanted him to be all powerful about his own gifts. It is why I made it Blind Santa first but back then in 2015? Hosts thought it was "too strong" or crap like that. It is why I do not like the A option, am okay with B option but would rather prefer my C option which gives you both present knowledge and free reign over who gets what present but Santa not knowing in what colored present is what thing.

Hosts can just hand over a list saying:
1. Bullet Proof Amulet
2. Deadly Poison
.....
5. Santa Tracker

and then says that sadly clumsy Santa or drunk Santa or whatever dropped his other lists after packing the presents so now he stands before 5 different colored presents and got no idea what is in what present and has no time to check. Or his Santa magic is preventing him from opening his presents or his Santa honor or stuff like that. In any case he should know what he got, he should be allowed what gift to hand over, he should NOT know or be 100% sure what exactly he is giving out. Making his role entirely riskless is truly boring because then the only thing stopping him are escort, prostitute and barkeeper and that they are all 3 in a game is pretty unlikely, same that even if one or two of those roles are in it is unlikely they can block santa from handing over his presents which makes his role too strong for my taste, even with the 5 nights to win hurdle.

 

[GrySun]

It would be much closer to my first original idea of Santa Claus which I called "Blind Santa Claus" who basically lost his list and now has 5 different colored presents but does not know what gift is in which present. So he decides the order of what he hands out at night but "blind". As in first night he can hand over either a red, yellow, green, blue or white wrapped present. He knows what 5 presents he has, however he does not know in which present is what. That is the kinda fun part I imagined that role to have back then, as in there being one present the Santa would know would risk his own role, I think I called it a Santa Tracker or something in 2015.
This way Santa would have more knowledge about his presents and more freedom in handing them out but also a sort of "random" note to it as he, unlike the hosts ofc, is unaware what he hands out in each night. Expect ofc one is like a poison or a NVD so that he knows what he can scratch of the list for the remaining gifts as he would want to hand out the one present working against him as late as possible.

What do you think? It does give the Santa role more power like you wanted but at the same time ties his hand as both his knowledge and unknowing makes him a bit unpredictable at the start, even for himself. Which I'd imagine as a pleasing thrill as at the start he has a 20% chance to hand over the "bad gift" that might get him found out while he has 4 others of which he knows the effects but can't be quite sure what exactly he gave to who. Giving a Santa free reign over such One Shot Powers is too strong for my taste as some like the poison or the Bullet-proof amulet are very powerful and game-changing depending on who get those presents. Like I told you "imagine if you had handed over the amulet first and the poison much later", the last game could have gone incredibly different if a det got hit by the amulet and not the poison.

While better than what we currently have for Santa, it doesn‘t change it enough for me to like it more than either option A or B I suggested. Your suggestion only makes him certain of what his very last present does(if he can even find out what happened exactly, depends on present). It‘s still far too random and just a guessing game for a third party role, and not much more fun than current Santa.

And exactly, last game could‘ve gone different if the present order had been different. But so far hosts are the ones that determine the order, and a Santa can just blindly rely on that and not do much else. In your suggestion it only allows for a Santa to screw himself over not by choice but by RNG.

So best to either make the order set by host with option B, or have Santa have full freedom with option A to make his choices and either regret them later or be happy he picked well.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 16, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 16, 2019 ---

So we got 3 votes for A and 2 for B... But not sure if just going with majority opinion is best here, with such a small margin. I think for now we can settle on B to test it out, then can later try out A depending on how B is for future Santa players.

Personally think it‘s not too much chaos letting him have freedom of choice, since a host then knows he can freely pick and will adjust the presents given accordingly. Also dislike how last present basically doesn‘t matter in B, while in A you decide what you want for last meaning all 5 presents a host makes matter.

 

[Xadyu]

I'll gladly come back around and vote for Option A after thinking a bit more about it, to be honest.

But maybe it's not a bad idea to start with B, just to get the changes into the game a bit more slowly. I haven't kept up-to-date with the actual games itself, so I'm not sure at what rate they get played. If there's a lot of time between them we could go for A from the get-go, but if we get monthly ones, for example, we could do a slow-burn and go to B and afterwards A.

 

[Lambu]

Wanted to hear @Copy Panda and @Hardy 's thoughts. A benefits the gameplay, while B gives stability and predictability to the hosts.

Still prefer A, the issue of the 5th gift being useless is another point I forgot about. Last game it could have been a superbomb that kills everyone in game and it wouldn't matter... *takes notes*
And yet B is a good starting point for a change since we unanimously agree its a good step, while A could be tried out or discussed later on. Im all in for whichever of the two options we have here.

@GrySun I like B most but why not change it like this:

Santa Claus (Third Party): A Third Party role, whose goal it is to successfully target 5 players in order to bring them presents. Santa Claus cannot choose one player twice. He wins the game, when he sent out all five of his presents. The presents are determind by the host at the beginning of the game. Santa knows all the presents he has and can chose freely what colored present he hands out in whatever order he wants. He does however not know exactly what present holds what gift.

It would be much closer to my first original idea of Santa Claus which I called "Blind Santa Claus" who basically lost his list and now has 5 different colored presents but does not know what gift is in which present. So he decides the order of what he hands out at night but "blind". As in first night he can hand over either a red, yellow, green, blue or white wrapped present. He knows what 5 presents he has, however he does not know in which present is what. That is the kinda fun part I imagined that role to have back then, as in there being one present the Santa would know would risk his own role, I think I called it a Santa Tracker or something in 2015.
This way Santa would have more knowledge about his presents and more freedom in handing them out but also a sort of "random" note to it as he, unlike the hosts ofc, is unaware what he hands out in each night. Expect ofc one is like a poison or a NVD so that he knows what he can scratch of the list for the remaining gifts as he would want to hand out the one present working against him as late as possible.

What do you think? It does give the Santa role more power like you wanted but at the same time ties his hand as both his knowledge and unknowing makes him a bit unpredictable at the start, even for himself. Which I'd imagine as a pleasing thrill as at the start he has a 20% chance to hand over the "bad gift" that might get him found out while he has 4 others of which he knows the effects but can't be quite sure what exactly he gave to who. Giving a Santa free reign over such One Shot Powers is too strong for my taste as some like the poison or the Bullet-proof amulet are very powerful and game-changing depending on who get those presents. Like I told you "imagine if you had handed over the amulet first and the poison much later", the last game could have gone incredibly different if a det got hit by the amulet and not the poison.

Edit: I also take it as personal offense that you find my Santa boring (after you won with it and it is the first TP victory ever in this forum) after I HAD to dumb it down to make it what it became to get enough hosts approvals to get it into the game. I also wanted Santa to chose freely, I just didn't wanted him to be all powerful about his own gifts. It is why I made it Blind Santa first but back then in 2015? Hosts thought it was "too strong" or crap like that. It is why I do not like the A option, am okay with B option but would rather prefer my C option which gives you both present knowledge and free reign over who gets what present but Santa not knowing in what colored present is what thing.

Hosts can just hand over a list saying:
1. Bullet Proof Amulet
2. Deadly Poison
.....
5. Santa Tracker

and then says that sadly clumsy Santa or drunk Santa or whatever dropped his other lists after packing the presents so now he stands before 5 different colored presents and got no idea what is in what present and has no time to check. Or his Santa magic is preventing him from opening his presents or his Santa honor or stuff like that. In any case he should know what he got, he should be allowed what gift to hand over, he should NOT know or be 100% sure what exactly he is giving out. Making his role entirely riskless is truly boring because then the only thing stopping him are escort, prostitute and barkeeper and that they are all 3 in a game is pretty unlikely, same that even if one or two of those roles are in it is unlikely they can block santa from handing over his presents which makes his role too strong for my taste, even with the 5 nights to win hurdle.

Making the player know what presents he has doesn't improve things much if he doesn't at least know when will they be delivered.

Besides, not all Santas have to be very powerful. I decided on a strong set of presents for Gry so he had chances of winning given his low odds of survival, but if he had total control on them I might have gone with another "less game changing" set, for example give him 2 nice gifts so he's bound to at least benefit one player.
If a very powerful Santa is around then Town and Mafia(s) would have their teams balanced to face him aswell. The point is to make Santa Claus a role that can influence the game directly and not rely on sheer luck to win.

 

[James Rye]

I don't see it that way. If a Santa knows he got a killing ability and a makes his target bulletproof ability and gets to chose when he hands over what then ofc santa leaves the bp for last like it happened in the last game and use the killing ability to get rid of a det. I have no problem with a santa knowing what he got and choosing his own targets but if he gets to also chose what they get then that makes him pretty broken depending on the gifts he got from the hosts. Like I said if the gifts had been random then Gry could have had no idea whenever he was handing over a poison, a bp amulet or a NVD to Vandred. And that is a fair risk given it is 5 nights Santa need to stay alive to win. We did had a Santa once who came close to winning with 4 nights surviving. So as long as the host knows what is in what gift whereas for Santa it is a surprise, Santa choosing his own targets is fair. Either that or his targets gets warned with some presents.

 

[GrySun]

I don't see it that way. If a Santa knows he got a killing ability and a makes his target bulletproof ability and gets to chose when he hands over what then ofc santa leaves the bp for last like it happened in the last game and use the killing ability to get rid of a det. I have no problem with a santa knowing what he got and choosing his own targets but if he gets to also chose what they get then that makes him pretty broken depending on the gifts he got from the hosts. Like I said if the gifts had been random then Gry could have had no idea whenever he was handing over a poison, a bp amulet or a NVD to Vandred. And that is a fair risk given it is 5 nights Santa need to stay alive to win. We did had a Santa once who came close to winning with 4 nights surviving. So as long as the host knows what is in what gift whereas for Santa it is a surprise, Santa choosing his own targets is fair. Either that or his targets gets warned with some presents.

Do remind me which game that was, because I don‘t recall a single Santa that came even half to winning. Closest before me was iirc Farf in SnK game but I think she got blocked or something in one phase meaning she only gave away 1 or 2 gifts.

I really don‘t think it‘s as strong as you think, especially with hosts considering it when choosing the 5 gifts(at least going with option A also changes how hosts approach the gifts creation process). So it‘s both more fun and better balanced than what we have.

 

[Copy Panda]

I think I'll go with A here as well. Santa shouldn't have to outmaneuver RNG on top of avoiding town and mafia attention, all things considered. Giving Santa agency turns them into party that can influence the game meaningfully, rather than holding their breath for 5 cycles and hoping for the best