One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

One of the reasons why Big Mom is so feared is because of her information network and ability to blackmail anyone, which likely played a part in her rise

The greatest fear most characters have from encountering Big Mom is her position as Yonko (which is pure testament to her strength). There's nothing like a weak Yonko cos we have none by Manga facts.
Literally every one of them is power first, then anything else comes second, crew, fame, information network, territory, etc.

First comes their strength. This is well known as far as Yonko title is concerned.

This is why it was only when the knowledge that Luffy defeated Cracker, then Katakuri, two of Big Mom's most powerful crew members did the idea of an upcoming 5th Yonko hit Mr Big News Morgan.
It means none in a Yonko crew (Big Mom's in this case) can take Luffy down except the Yonko herself.
Yes the fact that he had allies and a (far-fetched) mastermind plan contributed to the "Big News" but the most notable acclaim to Yonkoship is no doubt the strength he showed.

Imagine if any of the current Yonko is capable of being taken down by a mere Yonko Commander in a one v one. That'd be stupid as it goes against the established fact of the Yonko position.

This is clearly why guys reading the news like Blackbeard made comments like it's too early for someone like Luffy to be Yonko. He's still not strong enough. But he'll be...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Your jabs and condescending posts (among other stuff) show you lack maturity and discipline as well. Didn't you leave because people said your rudeness took away their enjoyment of this forum? And yet you're back at it again. You accused me of being biased towards Sanji based on nothing but me defending him objectively and proceeded to tell me I'm wrong about myself. Jeez.

If people feel I'm being condescending for elaborating in detail, then that's their fault for being that insecure.

In fact, maybe it's not that you lack objectivity that's the issue here. Maybe your context gathering is just not adequate which would unequivocally result in poor assessments and wrong conclusions. You're the one of a very few person I've read that didn't deduce or link Sanji's broken shin as being partly due to already having an injured body. Maybe it's a mix of lacking objectivity and lacking context to build sound assessments off.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 5, 2019 ---

You are literally making stuff up. Either this or your reading comprehension still has a lot of room for growth. Here, this is what I said.

I am basically just ridiculing Nik's statement.

Your statement to Nik was about Zoro bleeding and therefore losing consciousness. You said you didn't want to hear the scientific explanation behind it.

You explicitly said "Before anyone jumps on me with the science stuff, don't bother... " clearly referencing not caring about Zoro's explanation for losing consciousness.

You're essentially denying a point you made here.

You are literally assuming that P1 would have no problems cornering Sanji, which is baseless.

Sanji's speed has never been proven to be great. Highly unlikely anyone would have issues keeping Sanji in closed-combat range. Not at all baseless. You couldn't show me one character in the New World who has had issues closing down Sanji. More so, Sanji tends to fight in close-ranged. The fight would unequivocally be closed-range. It's not like he has long-ranged attacks.

Even Yonji? The dude that was off panelled by DJ Sanji? Again, the RS alone won't make this strong. It took Sanji's strength + the suit to beat P1 this easily and nonchalantly.

Yonji is not invisible bud. Only Sanji's RS allows for invisibility.

It took very little of Sanji's strength. Page One during the entire encounter had no idea where Sanji was and it's all thanks to the Raid Suit.

If he weren't invisible to begin with, Page One would have had no issues anticipating or fighting Sanji.

If he didn't have that durability from the Raid Suit, Sanji would easily be injured.

Everything that led to Sanji's 2 attacks came from the power of the Raid Suit, not Sanji's powers.

Vergo point: Look at the scene where Sanji used Flange Strike against Vergo.

Vergo basically just stood there. Had nothing to do with Sanji being faster than Vergo.

If Sanji were faster than Vergo, he wouldn't have broken his legs. He would have avoided kicking Vergo's legs which injured his leg and counter-attacked him.

In Alabasta when Vivi confronted the rebellion army and Mr2 came as Usopp to trick here.

You took it out of context.

If you read what Sanji said:

1. He said Mr.2 got away.
2. Mr.2 has copied everyone of their faces.

All Sanji is doing here is deducing that Vivi is in danger. Mr.2 can clone any of their characters and feign being one of the SHs to trick Vivi. This is by no means a gag-scene. There's nothing comedic about it in the least.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Only reason you claim disrespect is because you're emotional about disagreements which is an odd behaviour to have on an online forum.

The only person I'm getting emotional with is you. The last part is absolute nonsense. Saying it's immature to get emotional in this situation is just an opinion of yours. Me getting emotional has to do with your style of handling a conversation, not what arguments you bring to the table but HOW. I'm just one of the many who have this issue with you but your automatic response would always be "perhaps you can't read properly". Perhaps you can't hold a conversation without pointing out how nobody can read properly but you (exaggeration).

You couldn't even dissect any of my comments to show how they're grammatically incorrect, so you're once again making excuses. As I said, your reading comprehension here is at fault.

Because the problem is how confusingly some of your posts sound and your logic in general. I'll explain below.

Getting angry at someone is irrelevant. Whether they think they're wrong or right is no reason to be angry. It's childish to get mad at someone for disagreeing with you. You're immature if that's your reasoning.

Just a baseless statement. I'm immature because I dislike your manners? You're the one being passively aggressive and overly/unreasonably arrogant. Deny it all you want.

If someone doesn't agree with you, it's not valid reason to get upset.

It's only you that I get upset with. But I actually pity you.

Nope, you're definitely wrong here.

Didn't misquote you once, or you'd show it.

You're the one who misunderstand.

How does saying

1. he defeated an opponent that couldn't see him
2. or anyone can hit an opponent that can't see...

be translated as implying choice? That's poor reading comprehension on your part. That statement has nothing to do with choice. Any English Teacher would tell you that.

At the end of the day I was correct. I understood you well, one of your last post clarified this where you claim that Sanji defeated PO in 3 hits. Your assumption that the fight ended there made you come to the conclusion that if 2 hits Sanji managed to land were due to invisibility then most likely invisibility played a huge role in PO's defeat.

All I said was — this is an assumption. Because there could easily be 10 more hits to bring PO down, to say it most likely ended right there and "read between the line" is not factual at all, it's your assumptions. Hence me bringing up "choice". If there's another 10 hits/exchange of attacks from both ends and if Sanji chooses to not use invisibility thereafter then your whole argument that invisibility is like 50% of the success falls apart.

So it's you who misunderstood my point from the very beginning. You're not the one to talk about reading comprehension.

You're the same person claiming I misunderstand when you took what I said and replied based on what other people said. You're being amusingly and highly hypocritical.

I never claimed that I cannot misunderstand other forum members, you included. Perhaps I have to remind you that I asked you a couple of times as to what you meant exactly. But you just couldn't stop. You just had to post more and more.

Like when you made a long-ass post about Sanji's speed not being impressive when compared to NW fighters, while quoting me. Where it was never even touched upon in that post of mine.

This is why I can say "you're a total hypocrite". You accused me of arguing points that were not argued yet it was relevant at the end of the day like it or not. But when you do the same thing, assuming that I was comparing Sanji to anyone when that wasn't the point if you read the context, somehow you're allowed to do that

Your reading comprehension is progressively being proven to be bad or you're simply too emotional to read comprehensively or you're a liar.

Again, take your own advice. Because I was talking about you having the same kind of emotional reactions. Somehow you believe that you don't get emotional about things, which I absolutely disagree with seeing how personal some of your posts get (not necessarily with me), but you can lie to yourself if you want to.

I called you out for responding to me with answers that had nothing to do with the discussion, lol. You were deflecting and strawmanning.

Except my answers were relevant at the end of the day.

Again, you're clearly not that great at reading or debating. We were talking about Sanji winning Page One, your excuse was bringing up choice which had nothing to do with the fight. It was irrelevant.

One of your points was that invisibility played a major role in Sanji winning the fight. You logic: 3 hits from Sanji were enough to take down Page One. If Sanji landed two kicks thanks to invisibility then that means invisibility was a major factor in his victory. This is all in all a fallacious logic given that you don't and cannot know how the fight went on. If there were another 5 attacks from Sanji that were fair and not due to invisibility then your whole argument crumbles up.

I called you out for making assumptions and you say my answers were irrelevant? Nonsense.

What I did was absolutely different. We weren't discussing anything. I took a random point you made and simply said he's not fast. It'd only be a strawman if we were initially arguing about the perception of Sanji's speed. This was your discussion with someone else. I merely contributed to it. It's a public forum at the end of the day, lol. You're the one getting upset.

No it's the same. By that logic you shouldn't have had any problems with me contributing to the discussion by pointing out how invisibility could have or could have not played a major role in that fight. Your rules are made up. Your definition of maturity too.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The only person I'm getting emotional with is you.

Then that is your fault. If you can't control yourself, it's your fault. Not anyone's fault. It's not a valid excuse.

Because the problem is how confusingly some of your posts sound and your logic in general. I'll explain below.

You're lying here. I know for a fact you read this Manga in English, so I know for a fact you that you're not being truthful here. Otherwise, you'd understand absolutely nothing of the series or be barely able to discuss anything in this forum.

There's nothing confusing about:

• "He defeated an opponent that couldn't see him."

Again, you're making excuses.

There's nothing to do with logic in a statement that says "He defeated an opponent that couldn't see him". That is an objective observation, a fact.

You're making excuses about logic and grammar when there's actually nothing wrong with the sentence.

Go ahead and break this down grammatically to prove that it doesn't make sense. I really don't know any English speaking person that would find this incomprehensible.

It's only you that I get upset with. But I actually pity you.

Again, childish excuse. If you can't control your emotions, it means you have problems that you need to deal with. That's not anyone's fault but yours.

Don't see me getting upset at others simply because they disagree with me. Either we debate or we simply agree to disagree. It's not rocket science. It's that simple. You're crying over petty nothings.

At the end of the day I was correct. I understood you well,

Again you're lying or confused.

Anyone who understands English would factually (and not saying this to insult you) would tell you there's nothing to do with choice in this statement.

So, your saying my statement here is implying choice is erroneous through and through.

Your assumption that the fight ended there made you come to the conclusion that if 2 hits Sanji managed to land were due to invisibility then most likely invisibility played a huge role in PO's defeat.

All I said was — this is an assumption.

Well you're wrong because nothing hints at the fight being continued.

You couldn't provide sound argument that gives one basis to claim the fight hadn't concluded. Very fact nothing was said about the fight since then implies the fight did conclude there and then. You're grasping at straws.

Like when you made a long-ass post about Sanji's speed not being impressive when compared to NW fighters, while quoting me. Where it was never even touched upon in that post of mine.

1. You said "he was one hell of a fast guy even before that (Raid Suit)" - to say you never touched upon his speed is a fallacy.
2. You said "he was always praised for his speed" - to say you never referenced his speed is a complete and utter fallacy.

The funny thing is that I agreed with the points you made before building up on the new point I wanted to make:

His crew praised him for his speed underwater. Okay, so he's as fast as a Fishman underwater. Hody is fast underwater too. Jimbei is fast underwater too.

We already know that relative to normal people, Sanji is super-humanly fast. He however is not very fast to other super-humans like Judge, Oven, Daifuku, etc.

You made a post about Sanji and part of what you said referenced that he was fast. I merely posed a new point about his speed is relative to other fighters, never challenged your assertion that he was fast or said you claimed he was faster than other characters.

If you read without being blinded by this petulant childish rage you suffer with, I actually agreed with you in the bolded parts and acknowledged he's fast. I wasn't even arguing with you. I was simply highlighting or raising a point that could be discussed or debated.

This is why I can say "you're a total hypocrite". You accused me of arguing points that were not argued yet it was relevant at the end of the day like it or not.

This is where your argument falls and completely plummets.

When I brought up Sanji's speed relative to other characters, we were never arguing anything pertaining to his speed.

1. Simply quoted you in a point you made.
2. Agreed with the point you made that he's fast.
3. and then raised a new point of mine.
4. Never said you claimed Sanji to be faster than xyz character, I simply raised a new point, didn't challenge your point. Pretty clear I was raising a new point as I said things such as "what does that speed mean relative to others" while I also acknowledged he was as fast as a Fishman.

This is what people do or can do to initiate a discussion even if they were not part of the discussion to begin with.

For you to then imply I said you spoke about Sanji's speed relative to others is a completely false statement, you had to lie about what I didn't say in order for you to invoke that I was using strawmen just so that you could lie ad call me a hypocrite when:

• All I did was agree with you and then raise a new point.

However, when you quoted me, you responded to me based on my response to someone else.

Now then. you posted this after what I said to that person.

I said what does choice have to do with it.

You said because of what I said to that other person which you quoted.

Going back to your initial response to me, it's clear this response is not about bringing up a new point. It's about challenging a point I made. Our responses are inherently different types of response. If you're challenging someone's point with a point they never brought up, it's a strawman argument whereas if you're bringing up a new point without challenging a point they made or clarifying intentions to bring up a new point, it's not a strawman. Your entire aim was to challenge a point made.

In essence, the truth is:

1. I didn't strawman. I agreed with you and brought up a new topic.
2. You on the other hand weren't bringing up a new topic as you were basing your response off something I apparently "inferred", you were challenging a point you thought I made.

The question that then must be asked is, How does saying:

1. He defeated an opponent he couldn't see.
2. Or, anyone can hit an opponent that can't see them.

...Infer choice? It doesn't.

1. It means that since you weren't bringing up a new topic...
2. ...but you were responding based on what you thought I inferred (which I sadly didn't)

...It means you were the one strawmanning.

In essence, the hypocrite here is you.
1 for saying I strawmanned which I didn't but you did, and 2ndly misunderstanding a sentence that didn't infer what you said was inferred and also accusing me of misunderstanding, and lastly, you said I only spoke about invisibility when I actually spoke about invisibility, Durability, and Page One being given false impressions (3 things bud). You're the actual hypocrite here.

Again, take your own advice. Because I was talking about you having the same kind of emotional reactions. Somehow you believe that you don't get emotional about things, which I absolutely disagree with seeing how personal some of your posts get (not necessarily with me), but you can lie to yourself if you want to.

And yet you have 0 evidence. Who is the one telling people they're on drugs? It's you. Who is the one calling persons Germa? I have never done that.

We certainly don't have the same emotional reactions. When I tell someone they're tripping or call them Germa, quote me.

Except my answers were relevant at the end of the day.

Again, a lie.

Nothing I said inferred choice, so bringing up choice was irrelevant since you were challenging a point you thought I made and therefore disagreed with. Your answers were irrelevant at the end of the day.

Either you misread and pulled a strawman or you read and translated incorrectly that still leads to pulling strawmen.

One of your points was that invisibility played a major role in Sanji winning the fight. You logic: 3 hits from Sanji were enough to take down Page One. If Sanji landed two kicks thanks to invisibility then that means invisibility was a major factor in his victory. This is all in all a fallacious logic given that you don't and cannot know how the fight went on. If there were another 5 attacks from Sanji that were fair and not due to invisibility then your whole argument crumbles up.

I called you out for making assumptions and you say my answers were irrelevant? Nonsense.

What's nonsensical is you claim that the fight went on when there's no hint it went on further than what Oda showed. If you could prove it, you would, so you're making baseless assumptions.

I on the other hand have basis or evidence to assume the fight concluded there and then. Based on what we saw, invisibility or too be more precise, a lack of knowledge regarding Sanji's whereabouts which is in essence having the same effect as invisibility won Sanji the fight.

Your argument relies on denial, not evidence. Your argument is like saying that because we didn't see Zoro getting carried to safety or being moved to a safer location, that it's quite possible that Zoro actually walked to safety himself despite what was implied.

You called me out on due to an emotional outburst on your part.

No it's the same. By that logic you shouldn't have had any problems with me contributing to the discussion by pointing out how invisibility could have or could have not played a major role in that fight. Your rules are made up. Your definition of maturity too.

Nope, absolutely poor logic.

You weren't contributing a new topic, you were arguing a point I made. It's simply a fact based on what we saw. Invisibility and lack of Sanji's whereabouts contributed greatly to Page One's defeat. To say otherwise is purely denial.

All the times Sanji landed any critical hits, it's because....

• He had no idea where Sanji was. Try to disprove this point.

And nope, absolutely incorrect once again. Maturity is ultimately self-control to behave in a civil manner regardless of the impulse to do otherwise.

You have to accuse people of being on drugs and lash out at people or blame others for why you're unable to control yourself, that's the opposite of maturity.

Mature people take responsibility for their actions, not blame others for why they can't be civil.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

...

You're in denial. You are emotional, like it or not. You were personal with other forum members, that's something I witnessed with my very own eyes. To say that you are not emotional is a blatant lie.

You may have avoided using certain terms or bad words in this particular discussion but the way you imply other forum readers lack reading comprehension/intellectual capacity or whatever is evidential enough. Haven't seen many other forum members using this kind of language.

Pretty sure you're fully aware of how arrogant you sound. And telling me to take forum stuff less seriously? Really, coming from you? You are absolutely serious about every dam matter here so why don't you stop being a hypocrite and begin to take it less seriously? Why don't you take your own advice and get less emotional?

Again, I understood you correctly, at the end of the day it was you who could not comprehend simple logic which was:

Whether or not invisibility played a huge role in that fight is yet to be fully revealed simply because we don't know how the fight went on.

^ This statement is absolutely logical.

Your logic on the other hand: Sanji took PO down in 3 hits. Because, as you said it "read between the lines". It was "implied", hinted at or whatever.

^ This is lack of reason and common sense.

Where I pointed out how you were making assumptions you took it all wrong because unlike you I never believed that the fight ended right there and then.

PS: just to make it more clear so that you could understand me correctly this time — I do not deny the possibility that the fight could have indeed ended after the 3rd strike — but I can't be overly confident about this. No one can. What we can surely say is very likely — Sanji's victory. As for how the battle continued — yet to be revealed.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

You're in denial. You are emotional, like it or not. You were personal with other forum members, that's something I witnessed with my very own eyes. To say that you are not emotional is a blatant lie.

You clearly can't read properly.

Didn't say I wasn't emotional, said I'm able to control myself. Huge difference, again proving you can't read properly.

You're grasping at straws.

You may have avoided using certain terms or bad words in this particular discussion but the way you imply other forum readers lack reading comprehension/intellectual capacity or whatever is evidential enough. Haven't seen many other forum members using this kind of language.

Well, that's not my fault. If something is supposed to be understood in a certain way when it's clearly phrased to come across that way, and it's misconstrued, that's the fault of the person, not mine.

Again, I understood you correctly, at the end of the day it was you who could not comprehend simple logic which was:

Nope, you didn't. Like I said:

You're lying or can't understand basic sentences if you claim that "anyone can hit an opponent that can't see them." has anything to do with inferring choice.

Whether or not invisibility played a huge role in that fight is yet to be fully revealed simply because we don't know how the fight went on.

^ This statement is absolutely logical.

Didn't say the sentence is not grammatically correct. The basis for that response, not logical.

Your logic on the other hand: Sanji took PO down in 3 hits. Because, as you said it "read between the lines". It was "implied", hinted at or whatever.

^ This is lack of reason and common sense.

Lack of reason when I gave a reason? Delusional to say I gave no reason when I did give a reason.

Lack of common sense for Oda to stop drawing a fight that has concluded lacks common sense? That's delusional on your part if you can deny these facts.


You've not said anything that is related to common sense.

Where I pointed out how you were making assumptions you took it all wrong because unlike you I never believed that the fight ended right there and then.

Your belief is baseless. You can't provide evidence to prove the fight continued.

PS: just to make it more clear so that you could understand me correctly this time — I do not deny the possibility that the fight could have indeed ended after the 3rd strike — but I can't be overly confident about this. No one can. What we can surely say is very likely — Sanji's victory. As for how the battle continued — yet to be revealed.

That would be like saying that Oda no longer drawing anything after Nami's use of Zeus didn't imply that the chaos at the banquet had ended and had been concluded. With such logic, it's logical to claim that Nami and co. still had to fight?

It's just common sense, nothing hints that anything continued after Sanji's 2nd kick with the Raid Suit.

If anything, it seems you're not really privy to the concept of implications which requires reading between the lines.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 5, 2019 ---

@Pea

The funny thing is this is the reason you're angry at this moment. This is where it all started.

You quoted me first, and then claimed that I spoke about choice when I didn't.

I'm the arrogant one, yet you're the one who cannot acknowledge that I didn't speak about choice.

Go ahead and quote how my response here has anything to do with choice:

Explain how saying "he defeated an opponent that couldn't see him..." has anything to do with me accusing Sanji for purposely choosing to be invisible?

If you can't prove that, it proves that you're the one who is at fault here for lying or misconstruing things.

 

[King Moe]

The RS alone does make you strong enough in a sense. Are you saying Sanji off-paneled Yonji while Yonji had his suit activated?

The thing with trying to claim something that's not shown is that you have zero evidence for it.

Hence why someone like Moe is called out each time to back up his fantasy logic.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 5, 2019 ---

You don't. It's already clearly established. He's a Yonko – one of the 4 most powerful pirates in the world.
You don't get there by connection. You show-off your ridiculous strength, abilities, and resourcefulness to get there.

He gives off the same vibe as every other Yonko we've seen if not more. He's surely crazy powerful.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2019 ---

I don't think so. A man doesn't just bet his hands on an upcoming talent save that he believes that upcoming talent will make it to the very top.
And who in the world encourages someone to do something and then go on to do that thing themselves without giving the encouraged one a chance (hope I'm still making sense). That shows he doesn't believe in the person in the first place. Only a d*** would do such whereas Shanks is one of the more good-natured characters you'll ever find in the series.

No matter how easy the chance Shanks gets to be PK (clearly assuming here). He's most likely not going to take it for well known reasons.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2019 ---

This isn't about me this is about you. I already gave my opinion on the Kaido battle don't let it drag on for the 10th time.

But now you've clarified yourself.
"Your theory" is all the answer I needed to hear.
Took a while but good to know.

Of course it was my prediction. When did I say it was 100% gonna happen? I said possible, but not a "guarantee". Think you and me miscommunicate in our posts when talking about this. Let's try that it don't happen again.

Also I ask you only because you made your prediction thinking it was 'actually' going to happen. If not, then again misunderstanding from my part.

Let's end our conversation then as we clear the air between each other.

 

[nik87]

I didn't bother to read all these posts since it seems more personal than trashing the cook, thus making it not that interesting for me as someone who has been labeled as Sanji basher/hater.
I will try to point out few things in Sanji vs PageOne.

All 3 hits that Sanji managed to land on PageOne were not thanks to his amazing combat feats such as strength, speed or Haki. All 3 hits were thanks to either invisibility or thanks to the opponent being unaware of being attacked. Such circumstances work against Sanji as combatant considering that he was being pushed around in WCI and in the example I recently provided was eating dirt, despite his "supposedly" good speed and good Observation haki. In the only instance where they clashed against each other, Sanji lost in power struggle to a worrying degree, smacked across the town like several tiers inferior combatant and saved from any damage thanks to the durability of his raid suit.

Sadly neither his speed nor his Observation haki had any real use mid-combat. I cant blame him for the CoO since no other character not named Fujitora has displayed mid-combat CoO use, Future Sight aside. When it comes to his speed, all instances that are being prized and worshipped are about his speed outside combat or against enemies who are unaware of being attacked by Sanji. People also confuse his movement speed with his attack speed.
Yes, he landed few kicks against Vergo which makes his attack speed slightly above Vergo's but that's all there is, nothing worth worshipping. It's not like every time they made a kick that Sanji landed his kick on Vergo's face and Vergo's attack fell short, not at all, they were evenly matched in that short clash and out of a dozen of kicks Sanji only managed to land one or two? Nothing impressive about that attack speed, just slightly above Vergo's.

As I said, the broken bone should never had happened if Oda didnt want Sanji to be made fun of, something that he does way too much with that character. He never made anything out of it and there were other ways to showcase Vergo's toughness. When it comes to Sanji's attack power, that's where the biggest problem lies, imo. The lethality of his attacks is terrible. He landed a clean cheap shot on Vergo's face with DJ and all the damage from that kick was Vergo's nose started to bleed... 2 clean cheap shots on PageOne and 0 visible damage from both, I repeat 0 visible damage.

That's a big problem that Oda needs to deal with and he can deal with it very easily. All that separates Sanji's attack power from being fodder-like to being god-like is the reaction/damage his kicks do to his opponents. Sanji kicks an opponent and you can choose two results of that kick, the opponent grins and doesn't have a scratch on him or the opponent spit out blood and has a hole in his body where the kick landed. Sanji's kick need to be far more devastating if Oda plans to keep him as top combatant of the crew who supposedly should take on big boys in future.

And then you have a character on the completely different end of that spectrum, majestic Zoro senpai, whose attacks have insane lethality and all it takes is one successful slice to defeat any opponent...

 

[Deleted member 169696]

You clearly can't read properly.

Didn't say I wasn't emotional, said I'm able to control myself. Huge difference, again proving you can't read properly.

You're grasping at straws.

Then give me a favor: control yourself to not tell me how to behave.

Well, that's not my fault. If something is supposed to be understood in a certain way when it's clearly phrased to come across that way, and it's misconstrued, that's the fault of the person, not mine.



Nope, you didn't. Like I said:

You're lying or can't understand basic sentences if you claim that "anyone can hit an opponent that can't see them." has anything to do with inferring choice.

I don't know how many times I have to tell you. Your argument was based around an assumption that the fight ended after the 3rd strike. It's an assumption, therefore I could argue against it which I did by bringing up the fact that no one knows if the fight went on. If it did, then your argument becomes less solid, because there could have been another cascade of attacks which could very well be 'FAIR'!

How come saying that you assume things is suddenly an irrelevant point? You clearly didn't try to understand my point.

Didn't say the sentence is not grammatically correct. The basis for that response, not logical.

What does grammar has to do with anything?

Lack of reason when I gave a reason? Delusional to say I gave no reason when I did give a reason.

What reason, your basis for saying that the fight ended right there and then is simply because Oda decided to off-panel the fight. Nothing else as it cannot be proven or disproven at this point. Another few blows from Sanji wouldn't prolong the fight significantly but could potentially ruin your argument that invisibility is 50% as to why Sanji won.

Lack of common sense for Oda to stop drawing a fight that has concluded lacks common sense? That's delusional on your part if you can deny these facts.

Your belief is baseless. You can't provide evidence to prove the fight continued.

Why do I need to prove something that cannot be proven? Your belief that the fight ended right after the 3rd strike is baseless (or to be more precise it's not a very solid point, you're assuming), I only attacked your baseless belief.

That would be like saying that Oda no longer drawing anything after Nami's use of Zeus didn't imply that the chaos at the banquet had ended and had been concluded. With such logic, it's logical to claim that Nami and co. still had to fight?

Like that time when you read between the lines to prove that Luffy was ready to take down a Yonko? When he clearly wasn't.

It's just common sense, nothing hints that anything continued after Sanji's 2nd kick with the Raid Suit.

If anything, it seems you're not really privy to the concept of implications which requires reading between the lines.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 5, 2019 ---

@Pea

The funny thing is this is the reason you're angry at this moment. This is where it all started.

You quoted me first, and then claimed that I spoke about choice when I didn't.

I'm the arrogant one, yet you're the one who cannot acknowledge that I didn't speak about choice.

Go ahead and quote how my response here has anything to do with choice:

Explain how saying "he defeated an opponent that couldn't see him..." has anything to do with me accusing Sanji for purposely choosing to be invisible?

If you can't prove that, it proves that you're the one who is at fault here for lying or misconstruing things.

You see, that's what I'm saying, your logic is weird. Because you didn't have to speak about choice for me to bring it up. I gave you a scenario in which choice could become a decisive factor as to whether invisibility would even be considered an important aspect of that fight.

Reasons for Oda to off-panel the fight:

He wants to save RS related stuff for later. He revealed one unique trait of it — invisibility. There could be more — an enhanced DJ, haki imbued attacks. Sanji needed to try it out before he could suddenly use the suit confidently when facing a stronger foe. More reasons to believe the fight lasted longer than just 3 attacks. Sanji needed to test the suit out. And if it did indeed take Sanji just 3 basic attacks to end PO — at this point you're still assuming.

Also I find it a bit hard to swallow that 3 basic kicks were enough to end an ancient zoan, part of the flying 6.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2019 ---

2 clean cheap shots on PageOne and 0 visible damage from both, I repeat 0 visible damage.

Yes. And some people think that 2 basic kicks were all it took to knock out PO.

On a side note, I absolutely agree that Oda needs to show more of badass Sanji.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Then give me a favor: control yourself to not tell me how to behave.

Maybe you should learn to behave then.

I don't know how many times I have to tell you. Your argument was based around an assumption that the fight ended after the 3rd strike.

Again, you're lying and trying to change what was being argued.

You said I made out that Sanji chose.

Where did I imply choice?

You see, that's what I'm saying, your logic is weird. Because you didn't have to speak about choice for me to bring it up. I gave you a scenario in which choice could become a decisive factor as to whether invisibility would even be considered an important aspect of that fight.

Nope, you're lying again.

You're saying I inferred choice when I didn't.

You were never bringing up a new topic, you were challenging what I said because you said I implied choice.

You've hardly spoken anything truthful.

Again, where did I imply Sanji choosing anything?

 

[afromarco005]

My boy nik bringing the fun back, the mood was a bit too electric around here

Where is Moe kun and his jokes when we need him?

 

[King Moe]

Since @nik87 and few others can't learn to stop changing the subject, let's get back to the point on Zoro and his failure thus far this arc as well NW unlike Sanji who been having a stellar performance more on serious threats (especially without fainting when he struggles) on dealing with them. Looking at Zoro's history in NW and honestly Zoro been getting truly easy opponents as he never handle likes even close to Luffy's and Sanji's opponents, but many overhype him he can handle them 'easily' when actuality as shown in this latest chapter, he isn't a 'Gary Sue'. Oda doesn't play favorites and writing things in more logical ways than fanboyism fantasies as certain others on here.

Though got to say him going down in one hit surprise me too as I thought he just keep going until getting medical treatment, but getting hurt yet again and now fainting, if you look at many sites, they Zoro lost heavy steam not just in his fanbase, but fandom as well they are rethinking how strong he is and what he can do in this arc. Many no longer see him worthy for King and looking at the plot with Hiyori now, that he will face Orochi as his final opponent. Not complaining about it as I do think he need swordsman fights under his belt and since Orochi has been known to be the 'greatest' swordsman in Wano, would love Zoro to confront him more than anyone else. King seem to be like Pica in a way he uses more DF than blades and I know many don't want a repeat of him running and trying to catch a flying opponent who keep away being physical again.

Overall Zoro need to retrain himself and need to work on how he was on pre-timeskip while he has the chance especially since he said it himself on being careless and naïve about the situation. Also take away his status of many thinking he was 'the most prepared Strawhat' when clearly none can be prepared in NW on what to face no matter where you look at it. Hope to he redeem himself for the better and catch up to the others especially Monster Trio when the final fights happens, but glad we got a case of realism getting back to fandom more about him on his level right now more .

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

At the end of the day... If this is the conclusion of the fight as is likely the case. Everything I've said is unequivocally true whether or not people want to be in denial. Everything the suit provided made it such that Page One never knew where Sanji was and simply made him target practice.

Even if people want to claim that the fight didn't end here, fact is the 2 major attacks happened because? Of the suit, my point still stands.

Even if people want to claim that Sanji didn't use the Raid Suit (after those first 2), as was showcased from those 2 critical hit, it doesn't change the fact that the scenario we saw from those 2 hits will always be the case whenever the suit is used; Page One would simply have no idea where he was as was the case from the first critical attack.

If people want to be pedantic and claim that Sanji didn't fight with invisibility, it doesn't change the accuracy of my point that the suit undermines Sanji and takes away from his victories in the sense that the suit creates circumstances that don't rely on his speed or power greatly for the most part, and ultimately his physical and athletic battle prowess:

1. His opponents can't see him meaning he can attack from blind spots.
2. Potentially means even if he gets hit powerfully, attacks that they'd assume put him down wouldn't and he once again has the chance to attack from a blind spot.

To emulate such a scenario realistically would require the character being extremely fast at the very least to pull off such a feat and possess immense durability.

Sanji could easily have flown right in front of Page One and challenged him if people want to claim that Sanji fights fairly, yet he went so far into the sky that he's surrounded by clouds and descended down like Thor's hammer when he knew full well from a bird's eye view that Page One had no idea where he was.

Not criticising the victory, a win is a win. I'm saying it can't be said won entirely due to his own strength because the Raid Suit changes the dynamics completely. I'll rephrase it "Simply saying he hit Page One critically is due to his strength and speed can't be said".

Entire reason I even brought this up in the first place is because I think Oda could do better with Sanji. All Oda would need do is have Sanji actually be shown using Hardened Armament and he easily could have shown Page One being Speed Blitzed by Sanji without having to put on any special equipment, and not only would we be able to attribute the reasons he hit down to his actual strength, but it'd arguably look far more impressive and promising for Sanji.

Far more likely that Sanji continued using the benefits of the suit because:

Sanji said he's only using it and swallowing his pride if it can help save lives. He also said if this thing has the power to help, he'll make use of it. It clearly has the power to help. The invisibility is the most prominent feature of the Raid Suit, of course it's only intelligent to use it especially given that he's swallowing pride in order to save lives.

Sanji showed concern for the city falling apart. He's not fighting for pride, he's fighting to:

1. End this battle as quickly as possible to reduce the collateral damage. A prolonged battle wouldn't do that. The entire town would be destroyed.
2. He's also doing it to save lives.

Far more likely he fought with all the benefits of the suit as much as people want to say otherwise.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Maybe you should learn to behave then.

You suggested that I take forum stuff less seriously — so I am learning to take your arrogance less seriously.

Again, you're lying and trying to change what was being argued.

You said I made out that Sanji chose.

Where did I imply choice?



Nope, you're lying again.

You're saying I inferred choice when I didn't.

You were never bringing up a new topic, you were challenging what I said because you said I implied choice.

You've hardly spoken anything truthful.

Again, where did I imply Sanji choosing anything?

I'm not changing what was being argued. You argued that RS is what granted Sanji the victory. Among other things, you said, invisibility played a huge role in that fight — 50% is what you said.

I corrected you that you only have 2 (just two attacks) to base that conclusion on. The fight could have lasted longer, therefore if Sanji chose to be visible there very well could have been another 5-10-15 fair attacks. Whether you implied choice or not is not the case.

Do you follow what I'm saying? Even if I initially didn't fully understand you, as I thought that you meant invisibility in and of itself, that still doesn't take away from the fact that you claimed that 2 attacks were successful because the enemy couldn't see Sanji. And from that you concluded that most of the attacks were due to invisibility/PO not expecting Sanji to attack. You made a conclusion that the whole fight went on like that because somehow off-paneling a fight according to your logic means that it ended right there and then.

This is what I first said:

This is just an assumption. No one knows how Sanji defeated PO and so far few things suggest he even bothered using invisibility.

Because the fight could have lasted longer than 3 hits as you assume. And in the unseen part of the fight Sanji could have acted 'fairly'. Thus your statement that invisibility/PO not expecting attacks from Sanji is one of the defining factors is just an assumption.

What am I lying about exactly? You simply misunderstood. I was clearly implying that the fight lasted longer than 3 attacks —> hence bringing up choice. Do you know what the rest of the fight was like? No. So you were assuming.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

You suggested that I take forum stuff less seriously — so I am learning to take your arrogance less seriously.

Well, when you stop crying and throwing tantrums, we'll see, lol.

I'm not changing what was being argued.

And you're still lying.

You still can't point out where I spoke about Sanji choosing.

You argued that RS is what granted Sanji the victory. Among other things, you said, invisibility played a huge role in that fight — 50% is what you said.

You're not making sense here, lol.

You just said I argued that the Raid Suit is what granted Sanji Victory. Among other things? You're seemingly confused. Invisibility is not among other things, it's an ability of the Raid Suit as is the Durability.

End of the day, it took 2 hits to conclude that fight based on what was seen. It essentially was 50% of the reason why Sanji was able to land the first critical hit.

Even if you want to get technical about the invisibility, thing you don't seem to understand is the it's the invisibility of Raid Suit and ultimately the power of the Raid Suit in general that still will be playing a huge role in the victory as was my original argument in the first place. Not like you've been able to refute that at any level.

You made a conclusion that the whole fight went on like that because somehow off-paneling a fight according to your logic means that it ended right there and then.

Well, if you use common sense. The same thought process and reasoning we use to conclude this is where things ended at the banquet is the same logic we apply here. No one is saying that Oda skipped anything here when it's clearly implied things concluded there and then. Same reasoning with Sanji, but you need excuse, so you have to grasp at straws.

Far more likely that Sanji continued using the benefits of the suit because:

Sanji said he's only using it and swallowing his pride if it can help save lives. He also said if this thing has the power to help, he'll make use of it. It clearly has the power to help. The invisibility is the most prominent feature of the Raid Suit, of course it's only intelligent to use it especially given that he's swallowing pride in order to save lives.

Sanji showed concern for the city falling apart. He's not fighting for pride, he's fighting to:

1. End this battle as quickly as possible to reduce the collateral damage. A prolonged battle wouldn't do that. The entire town would be destroyed.
2. He's also doing it to save lives.

Far more likely he fought with all the benefits of the suit as much as people want to say otherwise.

End of the day, everything I said based on those 2 hits would still be relevant to the 3rd, 4th and 5th hit.

Hell, the 2nd hit we saw Sanji land was from a blind-spot. Not exactly an Honorable way to attack someone.

Because the fight could have lasted longer than 3 hits as you assume. And in the unseen part of the fight Sanji could have acted 'fairly'.

That's only if you want to be delusional, then Sanji would have fought fairly despite the fact he said:

• He's fighting without pride to save people's lives and stop the city from being destroyed.

 

[afromarco005]

Since @nik87 and few others can't learn to stop changing the subject, let's get back to the point on Zoro and his failure thus far this arc as well NW unlike Sanji who been having a stellar performance more on serious threats (especially without fainting when he struggles) on dealing with them. Looking at Zoro's history in NW and honestly Zoro been getting truly easy opponents as he never handle likes even close to Luffy's and Sanji's opponents, but many overhype him he can handle them 'easily' when actuality as shown in this latest chapter, he isn't a 'Gary Sue'. Oda doesn't play favorites and writing things in more logical ways than fanboyism fantasies as certain others on here.

Though got to say him going down in one hit surprise me too as I thought he just keep going until getting medical treatment, but getting hurt yet again and now fainting, if you look at many sites, they Zoro lost heavy steam not just in his fanbase, but fandom as well they are rethinking how strong he is and what he can do in this arc. Many no longer see him worthy for King and looking at the plot with Hiyori now, that he will face Orochi as his final opponent. Not complaining about it as I do think he need swordsman fights under his belt and since Orochi has been known to be the 'greatest' swordsman in Wano, would love Zoro to confront him more than anyone else. King seem to be like Pica in a way he uses more DF than blades and I know many don't want a repeat of him running and trying to catch a flying opponent who keep away being physical again.

Overall Zoro need to retrain himself and need to work on how he was on pre-timeskip while he has the chance especially since he said it himself on being careless and naïve about the situation. Also take away his status of many thinking he was 'the most prepared Strawhat' when clearly none can be prepared in NW on what to face no matter where you look at it. Hope to he redeem himself for the better and catch up to the others especially Monster Trio when the final fights happens, but glad we got a case of realism getting back to fandom more about him on his level right now more .

So Zoro is not worthy of king but Sanji will solo King and Queen?
Thanks for the laughs Moe-kun

 

[M3J]

The greatest fear most characters have from encountering Big Mom is her position as Yonko (which is pure testament to her strength). There's nothing like a weak Yonko cos we have none by Manga facts.
Literally every one of them is power first, then anything else comes second, crew, fame, information network, territory, etc.

First comes their strength. This is well known as far as Yonko title is concerned.

This is why it was only when the knowledge that Luffy defeated Cracker, then Katakuri, two of Big Mom's most powerful crew members did the idea of an upcoming 5th Yonko hit Mr Big News Morgan.
It means none in a Yonko crew (Big Mom's in this case) can take Luffy down except the Yonko herself.
Yes the fact that he had allies and a (far-fetched) mastermind plan contributed to the "Big News" but the most notable acclaim to Yonkoship is no doubt the strength he showed.

Imagine if any of the current Yonko is capable of being taken down by a mere Yonko Commander in a one v one. That'd be stupid as it goes against the established fact of the Yonko position.

This is clearly why guys reading the news like Blackbeard made comments like it's too early for someone like Luffy to be Yonko. He's still not strong enough. But he'll be...

What is a weak or strong Yonkou though? The main reason why the Emperors and the Marines have uneasy truce with each other is because a victory will always be Pyrrhic and leave them open to the next enemy without enough time to recover. An Emperor could be weaker than the others but have a crew that's superior to the others. Like, Shanks could be inferior to the other Yonkou (which I don't believe), but if his small crew can take on the other Yonkou's crew, then Shanks would be considered a Yonkou or at the very least, someone not to fuck with.




Pea, just ignore HP. It's not worth wasting your time.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

What is a weak or strong Yonkou though?

My point exactly. There's no such thing.
You are trying to base Shanks being a Yonko from an alleged connection which I'm rebuffing.
Let's not lose our focus of debate.

 

[King Moe]

So Zoro is not worthy of king but Sanji will solo King and Queen?
Thanks for the laughs Moe-kun

Who defeated a T6H without getting hurt and easily? Sanji. Who got hurt and fainted from a fodder easily? Zoro. You can try to denied it all you want, but Sanji got more chances fighting King or Queen than Zoro if we comparing performance lately .

 

[M3J]

My point exactly. There's no such thing.
You are trying to base Shanks being a Yonko from an alleged connection which I'm rebuffing.
Let's not lose our focus of debate.

Too many words to keep focus easily. But I'm saying that him having connections could have contributed to him becoming a Yonkou. What territory does he hold? Has the manga mentioned Shanks specifically having territories?