One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Each of Chopper's point takes advantage of a certain aspect of his human/reindeer nature.

Normally we'd expect to see just three transformation points, but Chopper has 7. That's a lot.

Kung Fu point came as a replacement for the arm point and is much more useful as it makes him a decent combatant overall not just for dealing a few powerful blows.

Thing about DFs is the naming is very important. Most of the time, most DFs are not named after what they actually are or by what they actually do. They're named at things that hint at what they are. The hint most often used to name is the onomatopoeia which is the sound a thing makes.

Kizaru's DF is not named the light light fruit, but rather the sound light apparently makes when it goes on and off which is "blink blink" Pika Pika no Mi.

Enel's DF is not named the lightening lightening fruit, but rather, the sound light makes which is "Gura Gura" which refers to thunder.

Ace/Sabo's DF is not named the Fire Fire fruit, but rather, the sound fire makes which is "Mera Mera".

In other words, fruits are usually named after a property of the thing they're referring to, rather than the actual thing.

Chopper's fruit is called the Human Human//Person Person no Mi, but in reality doesn't actually turn him Human. If anything, it seems like his DF is based on Evolution. Humans are somewhat viewed as the pinnacle of Evolution.

Even when we look at Chopper's forms, they're not very human. It doesn't seem like the DF is making him more Human, it looks like he's adapting or evolving.

I think the purpose of the fruit is to evolve anything that eats, so in this sense, maybe it's Reindeer Evolution.

What I question now is how does Kung Fu point fit into this. I don't believe we were ever told it replaced arm point, at least I can't recall where it was factually stated in the Manga or Anime. Wikia said that, I don't trust Wikia just because they say something. I just know they're just a forum who happen to discuss and come to an agreement regarding what they believe which then follows up with a write-up that incorporates all their thoughts.

Why I ask how it fits into this is because Rumble Ball is supposed to let Chopper access forms he couldn't access before. Yet, we never saw a Kung Fu point pre-skip even with the Rumble Balls.

• What motivated or triggered the development of this form? What we know is that this form is purposed for fighting, so did he evolve or develop this point to fight or was it always there to begin with? or is it that Chopper is able to develop forms or evolve forms if he simply wishes to do so over a period of time? This potentially adds a lot of depth to the possibilities Chopper can achieve with his fruit.

Maybe his points are just the basics of the Hito Hito no Mi. His points up until Monster Point are the fundamentals and the greater control he has over it, the more he's able to develop forms? I don't think we've been told very much, but I'm actually now interested in seeing how Oda develops Chopper.

What strikes me as odd is how his additional points don't require a rumble ball anymore. His body got used to these transformations?

I guess the better he gets at controlling the DF, the greater the chance he can control that form at will. Monster Point is a form he's not fully mastered, so he probably needs to perfect the control over his DF in its entirety to use it at will without a Rumble ball. Previously he couldn't use most forms without Rumble Ball, but he could control them, all but Monster Point. It could also have something to do with his body adapting too.

He has a really odd ability.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 10, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 10, 2019 ---

@Hannibal Psyche Doesn't Crocodile says "second-rate" pirates though? Or were you quoting another passage? Anyway, the thing is, given where we're at in terms of general plot progression, Luffy probably will not lose to Yonkous or Admirals (except momentarily, like with Kaido), it wouldn't make any sense. Oda wants to finish the damn story, and for that Luffy needs to find OP and become PK. So he's gotta win the fights. If he was pitted against BM right now, he would probably win, because what would be the point otherwise? Oda would just have him power up during the fight or something, and maybe win in extremis, but win he would.
I don't wanna read a shonen in which the MC keeps losing, that'd suck.
Nobody would read the damn thing.
And who would wanna draw such a manga, seriously? How depressing...

Do you mean regarding Awakening?

 

[Fallou]

@Hannibal Psyche Haha no I was referring to an earlier post, about how WB was above anyone else etc..
I seem to have missed the two whole pages of discussion that followed, though, so nevermind, I prefer the Chopper discussion anyway

 

[M3J]

Did Zoro show any signs of fainting before everyone(Hiyori and O-Toko) was safe and before he saw Gyukimaru turn his back to walk away?

Zoro seeing Gyukimaru turning his back and walking away is the exact same thing as Luffy seeing Noah stopped. One Gatling attack is not what made Luffy pass out, it's the fight with Hody - which Hody confirms with his comment about his attack talking a toll on Luffy.

Regarding other SH members, I am interested to see all of them at limit after TS but combat wise I am hyped the most for Franky and Chopper.

Zoro would have fainted either way, apparently, whereas Luffy likely only fainted because he exerted too much in trying to break apart Noah. And as mentioned, what would have stopped Gyukimaru from pretending to walk away only to kill unconscious Zoro and/or go after Hiyori and Toko? Luffy at least saw the Neptunians stop the ship from falling.


Chopper's fights haven't really been exciting for me, out of his brain mode. Usopp's fights have been unpredictable though, against Perona and Candy or whatever her name is.

 

[SupremeMod]

Don't mind me. Drunk and high. Just reminding everyone that I called Queen's fruit as a stegosaurus fruit. Carry on.

Am I the only one that sees it? lol

 

[King Moe]

Zoro gonna be restudy on his power lvl regardless though as some can't no longer put him on "he stronger than 'blank'." anymore without him proving himself. Hopefully things are brought back more realism over him after this and more within the arc.

 

[Brandish μ]

Zoro gonna be restudy on his power lvl regardless though as some can't no longer put him on "he stronger than 'blank'." anymore without him proving himself. Hopefully things are brought back more realism over him after this and more within the arc.

In what way exactly? If blank is Sanji, he is. If blank is Luffy, he isn't. Those are constants for the manga entirety.

 

[nik87]

Zoro would have fainted either way, apparently, whereas Luffy likely only fainted because he exerted too much in trying to break apart Noah. And as mentioned, what would have stopped Gyukimaru from pretending to walk away only to kill unconscious Zoro and/or go after Hiyori and Toko? Luffy at least saw the Neptunians stop the ship from falling.

Well, can you explain why would Gyukimaru pretend to walk away when nothing indicated that Zoro would faint? Also, he never was after a woman and child or after Zoro himself, his cheap shot attempts aside.
Also, I can make a pretty good case that Luffy would have fainted even if there was no Noah, since, like I said, from the moment Luffy takes out Hody to the moment he faints is only 1 Gatling attack in between. He would have fainted due to a blood loss anyway since Hody while still conscious and kicking says the wound he inflicted is taking a toll on Luffy. If he wouldnt have fainted from blood loss, he would have fainted for the same reason why Zoro fainted here(the reason that seems to have most sense to me) - plot element.

There was a need for blood transfusion between a human and a fishman, something that hasnt happened for a long time on Fishman Island.

Zoro gonna be restudy on his power lvl regardless though as some can't no longer put him on "he stronger than 'blank'." anymore without him proving himself. Hopefully things are brought back more realism over him after this and more within the arc.

Only those who dont know anything about Zoro's character or power levels themselves or realism about the fights that Zoro had can think that he needs to restudy/retrain/prove something.
Realism about Zoro is such, that no one yet, since time skip has pushed Zoro anywhere close to full power. This kills your argument that he needs to restudy/retrain instantly. Until you see Asura failing to defeat an opponent this argument stands.
Realism about 2vs1 combat is such, doesnt matter who it is he will be at disadvantage against two non-fodder opponents and until we see other characters handling such combat effortlessly they cant be compared to Zoro.
Realism about fights that Zoro had is such, that no matter who it is, has managed to stand after one clean slice from Zoro. Realism is also, that Zoro has managed to push back an Admiral while being in an unfavorable situation.

If you didnt realize yet, you are the only one, at least in this forum, who thinks that a wild card such as Zoro needs to retrain/restudy without even showing his full power, just saying. If you want to debate it, be my guest, but leave headcanon aside.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Thing about DFs is the naming is very important. Most of the time, most DFs are not named after what they actually are or by what they actually do. They're named at things that hint at what they are. The hint most often used to name is the onomatopoeia which is the sound a thing makes.

Kizaru's DF is not named the light light fruit, but rather the sound light apparently makes when it goes on and off which is "blink blink" Pika Pika no Mi.

Enel's DF is not named the lightening lightening fruit, but rather, the sound light makes which is "Gura Gura" which refers to thunder.

Ace/Sabo's DF is not named the Fire Fire fruit, but rather, the sound fire makes which is "Mera Mera".

In other words, fruits are usually named after a property of the thing they're referring to, rather than the actual thing.

Chopper's fruit is called the Human Human//Person Person no Mi, but in reality doesn't actually turn him Human. If anything, it seems like his DF is based on Evolution. Humans are somewhat viewed as the pinnacle of Evolution.

Even when we look at Chopper's forms, they're not very human. It doesn't seem like the DF is making him more Human, it looks like he's adapting or evolving.

I think the purpose of the fruit is to evolve anything that eats, so in this sense, maybe it's Reindeer Evolution.

What I question now is how does Kung Fu point fit into this. I don't believe we were ever told it replaced arm point, at least I can't recall where it was factually stated in the Manga or Anime. Wikia said that, I don't trust Wikia just because they say something. I just know they're just a forum who happen to discuss and come to an agreement regarding what they believe which then follows up with a write-up that incorporates all their thoughts.

Why I ask how it fits into this is because Rumble Ball is supposed to let Chopper access forms he couldn't access before. Yet, we never saw a Kung Fu point pre-skip even with the Rumble Balls.

• What motivated or triggered the development of this form? What we know is that this form is purposed for fighting, so did he evolve or develop this point to fight or was it always there to begin with? or is it that Chopper is able to develop forms or evolve forms if he simply wishes to do so over a period of time? This potentially adds a lot of depth to the possibilities Chopper can achieve with his fruit.

Maybe his points are just the basics of the Hito Hito no Mi. His points up until Monster Point are the fundamentals and the greater control he has over it, the more he's able to develop forms? I don't think we've been told very much, but I'm actually now interested in seeing how Oda develops Chopper.



I guess the better he gets at controlling the DF, the greater the chance he can control that form at will. Monster Point is a form he's not fully mastered, so he probably needs to perfect the control over his DF in its entirety to use it at will without a Rumble ball. Previously he couldn't use most forms without Rumble Ball, but he could control them, all but Monster Point. It could also have something to do with his body adapting too.

He has a really odd ability.

Oh, so that what you meant by evolution. Well, it's true that even in his human form he doesn't look human enough and even mistaken for a gorilla.

The thing about what fruits are named after is that onomatopoeia comes with logia and paramecia categories, but all zoans so far, as far as I can remember, have always had rather straightforward names such as dog dog fruit model wolf etc. The only ones that sound odd to me are the ancient dinosaur zoans who for God knows what reason are called dragon fruits. But I guess it was somewhat needed so that Oda could fit Kaido in a category like he did with other mythicals.

Chopper is most definitely a zoan as we know another character with a hito hito no mi — namely Sengoku the Buddha. Evolution/adaptation fruit leans more towards the paramecia category.

Yeah, you've raised a thought-provoking question. Some of his forms look way different from what they used to look. The horn point that you brought as an example has clearly gotten more advanced (albeit doesn't look as cool).

This is drawn by Oda as far as I can tell. So this picture (probably from an SBS) kinda confirms that Chopper ditched the arm point + jump point for the kung fu point.

 

[M3J]

Well, can you explain why would Gyukimaru pretend to walk away when nothing indicated that Zoro would faint? Also, he never was after a woman and child or after Zoro himself, his cheap shot attempts aside.
Also, I can make a pretty good case that Luffy would have fainted even if there was no Noah, since, like I said, from the moment Luffy takes out Hody to the moment he faints is only 1 Gatling attack in between. He would have fainted due to a blood loss anyway since Hody while still conscious and kicking says the wound he inflicted is taking a toll on Luffy. If he wouldnt have fainted from blood loss, he would have fainted for the same reason why Zoro fainted here(the reason that seems to have most sense to me) - plot element.

There was a need for blood transfusion between a human and a fishman, something that hasnt happened for a long time on Fishman Island.

Zoro got a scythe through his chest, I'm sure Gyukimaru assumed a normal person would at the very least, faint from that if not die from the wound. And I never said Gyukimaru was, but that could have been Zoro's thought. After all, we don't know who Gyukimaru is or what his motivation is, other than stealing swords. Is he really working for Orochi? Would he be willing to take Toko and Hiyori to Orochi or kill Toko?

Huh? Luffy punched multiple times, and his Gatling gun usually has multiple punches in one go, no? Had he not punched the ship, he wouldn't have lost so much blood that led to him fainting.

 

[nik87]

Zoro got a scythe through his chest, I'm sure Gyukimaru assumed a normal person would at the very least, faint from that if not die from the wound. And I never said Gyukimaru was, but that could have been Zoro's thought. After all, we don't know who Gyukimaru is or what his motivation is, other than stealing swords. Is he really working for Orochi? Would he be willing to take Toko and Hiyori to Orochi or kill Toko?

Huh? Luffy punched multiple times, and his Gatling gun usually has multiple punches in one go, no? Had he not punched the ship, he wouldn't have lost so much blood that led to him fainting.

He may have assumed that prior to Zoro obliterating Kamazou but after it, unlikely, he was as surprised by one slice man as everyone else present.
Zoro passed out after he saw Gyukimaru turning around and walking away, not prior to it. Zoro's thoughts based on that sight couldn't have been that Gyukimaru will do anything other than leave.
No indication that Gyukimaru works for Orochi or that he planned to do anything with the females present, which he could have tried to do while Zoro was busy with Kamazou.

The hit which takes out Hody turns into Gatling and literally on that page Luffy is in terrible state and one Gatling doesnt nulify his blood loss during his fight with Hody, which took far longer than 1 Gatling(yes Gatling has multiple hits, that's the point of that attack). Besides, Oda was building up to blood transfusion between a fishman and a human so it would have happened regardless of Noah.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Oda was building up to blood transfusion between a fishman and a human so it would have happened regardless of Noah.

I just like how the blood loss is ignored up until Noah like it wasn't blood loss until the blood dripped after punching Noah. New definition of blood loss, blood dripping when punching a ship.

 

[nik87]

I just like how the blood loss is ignored up until Noah like it wasn't blood loss until the blood dripped after punching Noah. New definition of blood loss, blood dripping when punching a ship.

I blame it on the break week, the time when new definitions arise.

 

[King Moe]

In what way exactly? If blank is Sanji, he is. If blank is Luffy, he isn't. Those are constants for the manga entirety.

Talking about characters than just that. Though after latest performance on those two, Zoro isn't stronger than Luffy no matter what. While Sanji it depends as Oda always have them equals against each other.

 

[Brandish μ]

Talking about characters than just that. Though after latest performance on those two, Zoro isn't stronger than Luffy no matter what. While Sanji it depends as Oda always have them equals against each other.

Yea, Zoro won't ever be stronger than Luffy.

Sanji and Zoro are Luffy's best fighters, so they're equal in that regard. They are not equal against each other, though.

 

[King Moe]

Yea, Zoro won't ever be stronger than Luffy.

Sanji and Zoro are Luffy's best fighters, so they're equal in that regard. They are not equal against each other, though.

Manga begs to differ on the manga concern the two and rivalry as well performance lately between them in Wano.

Though main issue 'certain' fans hype him up stronger than Luffy, could five his opponents easily, saying he could potentially damage Kaido, etc.. Due to pass performance thinking he is 'unstoppable' especially due to his durability. After last chapter, glad that many are rethinking he is not is "out there" on comparing to strong characters.

That's what I am talking about more.

 

[jaymizzo]

The databook confirms that Zoro is the second strongest... Posted not too many pages ago. That should never be a discussion (Luffy vs Zoro that is).
@King Moe You have a weird detachment with facts when it comes to Zoro, last chapter did not prove anything other than Zoro defeating the enemy he had in-front of him (essentially a 2 v 1). If him fainting means that he is not "up there" with strong characters, I would like for you to elaborate on what you mean.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying someone could potentially do something, its different saying that they definetly can or will (for example, there's nothing wrong with saying Luffy will eventually be able to damage Kaido but there is something wrong with saying Sanji/Zoro will definitely fight King/Queen etc correction would be Zoro/Sanji could potentially fight King/Queen)

 

[Brandish μ]

Manga begs to differ on the manga concern the two and rivalry as well performance lately between them in Wano.

Though main issue 'certain' fans hype him up stronger than Luffy, could five his opponents easily, saying he could potentially damage Kaido, etc.. Due to pass performance thinking he is 'unstoppable' especially due to his durability. After last chapter, glad that many are rethinking he is not is "out there" on comparing to strong characters.

That's what I am talking about more.

I don't think so. Sanji received a new power so all we'd be seeing is Oda properly following through with it. There's no push for Sanji = Zoro from what I can tell, it's more that Sanji is now relatively close to Zoro like he had been preskip.

But the order should really stay the same. 1 Luffy, 2 Zoro, 3 Sanji - and this will be reflected by the power level of opponents they face within this very arc. Luffy and Zoro also have exception from Sanji that they are supernova's; Zoro and Killer having the exception in that group that they are not captains. Although Oda came up with this concept on the fly (iirc) it's still a distinction worth noting in this discussion as Zoro was grouped above Sanji.

What makes more narrative sense to me is that Sanji received a power up, so that in the event Jinbe joins, the monster trio stay in tact. You could argue Jinbe is stronger than Zoro and maybe Luffy (before the Katakuri fight) - but there was more of a gap for Sanji.

Fans hyping Zoro isn't an issue, as we've discussed in a PM referring to 'fans' isn't something we will be doing here. You should be able to make good arguments with the manga, and if the 'fanboys won't listen' that's just something we'll have to live with.

 

[M3J]

I just like how the blood loss is ignored up until Noah like it wasn't blood loss until the blood dripped after punching Noah. New definition of blood loss, blood dripping when punching a ship.

Yawn. You talk about others' reading comprehension, but yours is poor. Nowhere did I ever say Luffy wasn't bleeding before trying to deal with Noah and in fact did recognize he was bleeding when I mentioned punching the ship made him bleed even more. You're talented at twisting everything to suit what you want and editing quoted posts to how you want. Manga shows us Luffy exerting himself and bleeding even more trying to punch Noah when he could have eased himself and staunch his wound. Good luck trying to prove that the effort of stopping Noah didn't cause Luffy to faint, and that he'd have fainted regardless because of Hodi's bite.


I'd love to see Oda give us a Zoro vs. Luffy fight, just to see who's truly stronger and where the other stands. However, has Zoro shown speed or power that would put him on par with Gear 4 Luffy?

 

[nik87]

Good luck trying to prove that the effort of stopping Noah didn't cause Luffy to faint, and that he'd have fainted regardless because of Hodi's bite.

I'd love to see Oda give us a Zoro vs. Luffy fight, just to see who's truly stronger and where the other stands. However, has Zoro shown speed or power that would put him on par with Gear 4 Luffy?

Well, can it be proven that Zoro would have fainted if Gyukimaru, instead of turning back and walking away, would have charged at Zoro? It cannot, imo.
In Luffy's case, we know there was a build up about fishmen and humans mixing blood so Luffy would have passed out regardless of Noah, imo.

That would be a fight I would like to see more than anything. Zoro is not playing Luffy's game of speed and power, combat style is fundamentally different.

 

[King Moe]

I don't think so. Sanji received a new power so all we'd be seeing is Oda properly following through with it. There's no push for Sanji = Zoro from what I can tell, it's more that Sanji is now relatively close to Zoro like he had been preskip.

But the order should really stay the same. 1 Luffy, 2 Zoro, 3 Sanji - and this will be reflected by the power level of opponents they face within this very arc. Luffy and Zoro also have exception from Sanji that they are supernova's; Zoro and Killer having the exception in that group that they are not captains. Although Oda came up with this concept on the fly (iirc) it's still a distinction worth noting in this discussion as Zoro was grouped above Sanji.

What makes more narrative sense to me is that Sanji received a power up, so that in the event Jinbe joins, the monster trio stay in tact. You could argue Jinbe is stronger than Zoro and maybe Luffy (before the Katakuri fight) - but there was more of a gap for Sanji.

Fans hyping Zoro isn't an issue, as we've discussed in a PM referring to 'fans' isn't something we will be doing here. You should be able to make good arguments with the manga, and if the 'fanboys won't listen' that's just something we'll have to live with.

Got to respectfully disagree. I don't see it like that especially looking performance between them in the arc as well Oda goes out of his way in anime and manga to never openly said who stronger. Just them competing and those around commenting about it.

A lot has pushed them to be rivalries and equals, it's not one-sided about it and been apparent since pre-timeskip which why majority still look upon it like that. There been many cases to show this with how they act to each other, strength within the crew along with Luffy, their opponents who also conflict with each other similar to their relationship sometimes, and so on.

Until shown in manga and anime, not just me, but others see them equals end of the day. Jimbei hasn't shown NW feats to say where he belongs in strength, but if it's shaping how many on predicting on Monster Trio's future final opponents in Wano than they are stronger than him until feats all around shown otherwise.

I know. Though just saying as on many platforms isn't not just here it's happening. We all have to learn to deal with it at end of the day. Hope the change for the better.