Discussion Best Wano Upgrade?

[kkck]

I'm basing Sanji being that good on the information from the manga. He's stronger than a member of the Flying Six but for sure not at Yonko First Commander level.

Your idea of a "meaningful" power up seems a little one sided. One of his dreams was the Invisibility DF, his fighting style relies on High speed strikes and particularly decent CoO. The suit amplifies those already established abilities on top of durability.

You idea of anyone "compensating" for haki means they are weak is just odd considering its Kaido's scales and not his haki make him as invincible as he seems. All that matters is that your haki is strong enough to hurt your opponents. Luffy vs Katakuri proves this. Katakuri had superior CoA and Luffy could still hurt him badly.

Sanji's Raid Suit brings a dynamic in future battles that we are in desperately need of.

What information? Sure, sanji isn't as strong as first yonko commander level. but there is no evidence to suggest he would win against the second, third.... or ninth for that matter. Overall, sanji has not shown a single thing which suggest he is particularly competitive at the yonko commander level.

Well, my post isn't about sanji's dreams and feelings. Clearly my point is more on how his haki is simply lackluster and the raid suit simply not compensating for it. We already have zoro and luffy being capable of extending their haki beyond their bodies and meanwhile sanji has not even shown hardening...

What dynamic? The raid suit acts as an armor and makes sanji invisible but otherwise nothing we know of suggests it will do anything dynamics wise. Sanji's overall fighting style would by all appearances remain exactly the same. The suit certainly acts like an armor and would likely enhance his offense and speed but that is about it. I would even argue the flying bit the suits are capable of are largely irrelevant to sanji since he can fly anyways. And sure, the suit could do more like, say, enhance sanji's fire somehow for instance. But the fact remains that a haki upgrade is simply a superior alternative to a suit. As in, if sanji had a choice between a haki upgrade and the suit he'd definitely be substantially better off with the haki upgrade than with the suit. Just look at luffy. Learning the advanced version of CoO got him from being much weaker than katakuri to being at least a match to him. And the current armor haki upgrade will apparently get him to a point where kaido can at least feel his attacks, which is massive. zoro will likely get a comparable boost from his current haki training as well. Sanji is simply getting the worst of the powerups around. Zoro is likely on his way to soloing a relevant yonko commander meanwhile sanji would still likely get owned by the likes of doflamingo....

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

What information? Sure, sanji isn't as strong as first yonko commander level. but there is no evidence to suggest he would win against the second, third.... or ninth for that matter. Overall, sanji has not shown a single thing which suggest he is particularly competitive at the yonko commander level.

Well, my post isn't about sanji's dreams and feelings. Clearly my point is more on how his haki is simply lackluster and the raid suit simply not compensating for it. We already have zoro and luffy being capable of extending their haki beyond their bodies and meanwhile sanji has not even shown hardening...

What dynamic? The raid suit acts as an armor and makes sanji invisible but otherwise nothing we know of suggests it will do anything dynamics wise. Sanji's overall fighting style would by all appearances remain exactly the same. The suit certainly acts like an armor and would likely enhance his offense and speed but that is about it. I would even argue the flying bit the suits are capable of are largely irrelevant to sanji since he can fly anyways. And sure, the suit could do more like, say, enhance sanji's fire somehow for instance. But the fact remains that a haki upgrade is simply a superior alternative to a suit. As in, if sanji had a choice between a haki upgrade and the suit he'd definitely be substantially better off with the haki upgrade than with the suit. Just look at luffy. Learning the advanced version of CoO got him from being much weaker than katakuri to being at least a match to him. And the current armor haki upgrade will apparently get him to a point where kaido can at least feel his attacks, which is massive. zoro will likely get a comparable boost from his current haki training as well. Sanji is simply getting the worst of the powerups around. Zoro is likely on his way to soloing a relevant yonko commander meanwhile sanji would still likely get owned by the likes of doflamingo....

Base Sanji has beaten raid suit Yonji without a raid suit. Then raid suit Yonji subdued Daifuku's Genie later in the arc. Sanji also fodderized Bobbins completely, which naturally puts him on par with those ranking directly higher than Bobbins, the commanders (not the top three). Sanji also happened to take an accidental double punch to the face from G2 Luffy and Jinbe and was fine afterwards. This is all without the raid suit. His base stats are completely fine, and he has support powers that compliment his fighting style very well.

His armament haki is lesser than Luffy's and Zoro's for the time being. He's falling behind a bit. That is completely alright though. Marco is clearly stronger than Jozu. Benn Beckman is clearly stronger than Lucky Roo. Katakuri is clearly stronger than Smoothie. It's only natural that Zoro becomes clearly stronger than Sanji at some point. It's time. It was time for Luffy to pull ahead of them on Enies Lobby, now it's time for Zoro to pull ahead.

And not all Yonko commanders are haki beasts. Queen and Jack for instance have not displayed any reliance on armament yet, despite both having fought on panel before.

 

[Pirate Queen]

What information? Sure, sanji isn't as strong as first yonko commander level. but there is no evidence to suggest he would win against the second, third.... or ninth for that matter. Overall, sanji has not shown a single thing which suggest he is particularly competitive at the yonko commander level.

Well, my post isn't about sanji's dreams and feelings. Clearly my point is more on how his haki is simply lackluster and the raid suit simply not compensating for it. We already have zoro and luffy being capable of extending their haki beyond their bodies and meanwhile sanji has not even shown hardening...

What dynamic? The raid suit acts as an armor and makes sanji invisible but otherwise nothing we know of suggests it will do anything dynamics wise. Sanji's overall fighting style would by all appearances remain exactly the same. The suit certainly acts like an armor and would likely enhance his offense and speed but that is about it. I would even argue the flying bit the suits are capable of are largely irrelevant to sanji since he can fly anyways. And sure, the suit could do more like, say, enhance sanji's fire somehow for instance. But the fact remains that a haki upgrade is simply a superior alternative to a suit. As in, if sanji had a choice between a haki upgrade and the suit he'd definitely be substantially better off with the haki upgrade than with the suit. Just look at luffy. Learning the advanced version of CoO got him from being much weaker than katakuri to being at least a match to him. And the current armor haki upgrade will apparently get him to a point where kaido can at least feel his attacks, which is massive. zoro will likely get a comparable boost from his current haki training as well. Sanji is simply getting the worst of the powerups around. Zoro is likely on his way to soloing a relevant yonko commander meanwhile sanji would still likely get owned by the likes of doflamingo....

No amount of haki can make you invisible. There are always oppourtunity to improve haki... there is never an opportunity to suddenly become invisible.

Zoro has shown even less than Sanji and yet your saying he can solo a Yonko Commander where Sanji cannot? Makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[kkck]

No amount of haki can make you invisible. There are always oppourtunity to improve haki... there is never an opportunity to suddenly become invisible.

Zoro has shown even less than Sanji and yet your saying he can solo a Yonko Commander where Sanji cannot? Makes absolutely no sense at all.

Sure, but the haki upgrades never seem to come for sanji. And he keeps lagging and lagging in spite of them being more important and more significant than anything the raid suit can provide.

Zoro actually has feats in the new world, unlike sanji. And more importantly, zoro has basically breezed his way through the new world. He easily defeated hyozo, who arguably was stronger than hodi. He defeated monet by basically scaring her. And his biggest feat so far of course is his relatively comfortable victory over pika. And of course while we learned about the different applications of armor haki during luffy's training it becomes clear that zoro has had the ability to extend his haki beyond his body for a while, which considering everything is fairly impressive. Meanwhile sanji has really nothing to show for his new world journey so far. His biggest feat is easily sneaking up on oven, the rest of what we have seen is simply sanji baking cake and getting his ass handed to him.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Sure, but the haki upgrades never seem to come for sanji. And he keeps lagging and lagging in spite of them being more important and more significant than anything the raid suit can provide.

Zoro actually has feats in the new world, unlike sanji. And more importantly, zoro has basically breezed his way through the new world. He easily defeated hyozo, who arguably was stronger than hodi. He defeated monet by basically scaring her. And his biggest feat so far of course is his relatively comfortable victory over pika. And of course while we learned about the different applications of armor haki during luffy's training it becomes clear that zoro has had the ability to extend his haki beyond his body for a while, which considering everything is fairly impressive. Meanwhile sanji has really nothing to show for his new world journey so far. His biggest feat is easily sneaking up on oven, the rest of what we have seen is simply sanji baking cake and getting his ass handed to him.

Zoro breezed through NW because he is given straight fodder to deal with. Even when faced with an Admiral, that Admiral had no I'll will towards him.

Sanji on the other had is faced with the likes of Vergo Doflamingo and Big Mom, which are end of Arc Opponents. Of course Zoro has a better showing when he faces cowards like Pica who run away from him.

And this thread isnt even about what you are trying to make it.

The best upgrade.

And you reasons for making Sanji's upgrade "not meaningful" because it's not haki related is baseless and unfounded.

 

[kkck]

Zoro breezed through NW because he is given straight fodder to deal with. Even when faced with an Admiral, that Admiral had no I'll will towards him.

Sanji on the other had is faced with the likes of Vergo Doflamingo and Big Mom, which are end of Arc Opponents. Of course Zoro has a better showing when he faces cowards like Pica who run away from him.

And this thread isnt even about what you are trying to make it.

The best upgrade.

And you reasons for making Sanji's upgrade "not meaningful" because it's not haki related is baseless and unfounded.

Fodder? Come on, at a minimum pika is as much a threat as vergo, if not more. In turn sanji was losing a kicking contest against vergo (though nami's usage of sanji's body didn't help).

But haki clearly provides better and more advantages than a raid suit. The raid suit is a fancy armor but that is it. A haki boost is an actual skill increase which is not something that can be said of the raid suit even if it boosts the user's overall capacity. Add to that, why is sanji the only one in the monster trio that would need such an enhancement to be competitive? In part one at least he carried his weight perfectly but now his only path forward was a suit? Come on, that is clearly unfair to the character. And that isn't even comparable to swords considering that when it comes to swords haki is more important than overall sword quality. even enma I would argue is merely an awkward plot device to push zoro's haki further. Haki is not an optional skill in the new world. The thread is about the best wano upgrades... and yeah, haki upgrades are likely to be better than alternatives.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Fodder? Come on, at a minimum pika is as much a threat as vergo, if not more. In turn sanji was losing a kicking contest against vergo (though nami's usage of sanji's body didn't help).

But haki clearly provides better and more advantages than a raid suit. The raid suit is a fancy armor but that is it. A haki boost is an actual skill increase which is not something that can be said of the raid suit even if it boosts the user's overall capacity. Add to that, why is sanji the only one in the monster trio that would need such an enhancement to be competitive? In part one at least he carried his weight perfectly but now his only path forward was a suit? Come on, that is clearly unfair to the character. And that isn't even comparable to swords considering that when it comes to swords haki is more important than overall sword quality. even enma I would argue is merely an awkward plot device to push zoro's haki further. Haki is not an optional skill in the new world. The thread is about the best wano upgrades... and yeah, haki upgrades are likely to be better than alternatives.

So every other SH is allowed something that enhances their fighting skills but Sanji?

Take 2 of Zoro's swords away since he needs those to be competitive... Sounds ridiculous right?

This is Oda leveling the playing field. If Sanji had this from the beginning, you wouldnt be saying this.

Every other SH has something to compliment their fighting style BUT Sanji

 

[kkck]

So every other SH is allowed something that enhances their fighting skills but Sanji?

Take 2 of Zoro's swords away since he needs those to be competitive... Sounds ridiculous right?

This is Oda leveling the playing field. If Sanji had this from the beginning, you wouldnt be saying this.

Every other SH has something to compliment their fighting style BUT Sanji

I don't object to the fighting styles and the weapons in them. In other threads I've written about how I don't think martial arts, whether armed or unarmed, don't really give inherent advantages to the user as fighters can simply adapt. In short, I see santoryu and sanji's black leg style as equally competitive when it comes to fighting.

And yeah, I held sanji in a higher standard than several other strawhats in this regard. Namely franky, ussop, and nami... Sanji has been reduced to the likes of them who rely on high tech chikanery rather than actual innate strength, martial arts, haki and training. When originally he was an actual martial artist who carried his weight through sheer balls and strength. And don't get me wrong, i don't hold any of that against franky, ussop and nami. If anything I enjoy how they fight and it is a tragedy that the new world does not feature substantially more of them. It's just sanji whose "upgrade" has made him less than he was. It's just sanji whose "upgrade" showcases how far behind he has fallen behind luffy and zoro.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 7, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 7, 2019 ---

And don't get me wrong, the issue here is specifically that sanji does not appear to be improving on the other areas. IF he had already evidenced actual growth in other areas (physical strength, haki, martial arts) I'd be fine with him getting into high tech chikanery for an extra kick.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I don't object to the fighting styles and the weapons in them. In other threads I've written about how I don't think martial arts, whether armed or unarmed, don't really give inherent advantages to the user as fighters can simply adapt. In short, I see santoryu and sanji's black leg style as equally competitive when it comes to fighting.

And yeah, I held sanji in a higher standard than several other strawhats in this regard. Namely franky, ussop, and nami... Sanji has been reduced to the likes of them who rely on high tech chikanery rather than actual innate strength, martial arts, haki and training. When originally he was an actual martial artist who carried his weight through sheer balls and strength. And don't get me wrong, i don't hold any of that against franky, ussop and nami. If anything I enjoy how they fight and it is a tragedy that the new world does not feature substantially more of them. It's just sanji whose "upgrade" has made him less than he was. It's just sanji whose "upgrade" showcases how far behind he has fallen behind luffy and zoro.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 7, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 7, 2019 ---

And don't get me wrong, the issue here is specifically that sanji does not appear to be improving on the other areas. IF he had already evidenced actual growth in other areas (physical strength, haki, martial arts) I'd be fine with him getting into high tech chikanery for an extra kick.

That's just a long way of saying you've put your own biased expectations on Sanji and because they haven't been met you disregard the RS as "meaningful"

Alright. Seems rather odd but, oh well.

 

[kkck]

That's just a long way of saying you've put your own biased expectations on Sanji and because they haven't been met you disregard the RS as "meaningful"

Alright. Seems rather odd but, oh well.

Yeah? That's kinda the point of a discussion thread. I don't pretend or try to be an objective observer, that'd be nonsense.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yeah? That's kinda the point of a discussion thread. I don't pretend or try to be an objective observer, that'd be nonsense.

And your free to have you opinion but the facts don't support your bias

 

[hokageji]

And yeah, I held sanji in a higher standard than several other strawhats in this regard. Namely franky, ussop, and nami... Sanji has been reduced to the likes of them who rely on high tech chikanery rather than actual innate strength, martial arts, haki and training. When originally he was an actual martial artist who carried his weight through sheer balls and strength. And don't get me wrong, i don't hold any of that against franky, ussop and nami. If anything I enjoy how they fight and it is a tragedy that the new world does not feature substantially more of them. It's just sanji whose "upgrade" has made him less than he was. It's just sanji whose "upgrade" showcases how far behind he has fallen behind luffy and zoro.

I complete agree with this, and i will add that the RS upgrade is from the group Sanji despises the most. If you consider that, RS is actually a poorer choice as an upgrade.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I complete agree with this, and i will add that the RS upgrade is from the group Sanji despises the most. If you consider that, RS is actually a poorer choice as an upgrade.

Sanji pushed his pride aside to don the suit

When Zoro pushed aside his pride to train with Mihawk no one saw it as weak and he was actually praised. What hipocrisy...

 

[kkck]

Sanji pushed his pride aside to don the suit

When Zoro pushed aside his pride to train with Mihawk no one saw it as weak and he was actually praised. What hipocrisy...

Well, yeah, but zoro pushed away his pride for luffy in order to master his craft, haki and whatever else mihawk could teach him. Sanji pushed aside his pride for the aforementioned high tech chikanery in a desperate attempt to make up for the fact that his martial arts, strength and haki was lacking. Zoro became more than he was when he sacrificed his pride. Sanji's character in turn suffered from it. I'd argue praising zoro and dissing sanji over this is perfectly coherent.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Well, yeah, but zoro pushed away his pride for luffy in order to master his craft, haki and whatever else mihawk could teach him. Sanji pushed aside his pride for the aforementioned high tech chikanery in a desperate attempt to make up for the fact that his martial arts, strength and haki was lacking. Zoro became more than he was when he sacrificed his pride. Sanji's character in turn suffered from it. I'd argue praising zoro and dissing sanji over this is perfectly coherent.

No its hipocrisy. Not eve poorly hidden hipocrisy. Sanji hasn't even been given the OPPOURTUNITY to grow from the sacrifice of donning the suit. He's barely worn it, yet he's dissed and Zoro is praised for litterally doing the exact same thing.

 

[kkck]

No its hipocrisy. Not eve poorly hidden hipocrisy. Sanji hasn't even been given the OPPOURTUNITY to grow from the sacrifice of donning the suit. He's barely worn it, yet he's dissed and Zoro is praised for litterally doing the exact same thing.

But... what I am suggesting is that the problem IS the suit and everything that comes with it. The suit doesn't improve sanji's base strength (it boosts him but in a different way), the suit doesn't improve his haki as far as we know and it doesn't come in with programmed martial arts classes.

 

[Pirate Queen]

But... what I am suggesting is that the problem IS the suit and everything that comes with it. The suit doesn't improve sanji's base strength (it boosts him but in a different way), the suit doesn't improve his haki as far as we know and it doesn't come in with programmed martial arts classes.

Nor should it. Leave it for Sanji to develop in the heat of battle.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

I don't object to the fighting styles and the weapons in them. In other threads I've written about how I don't think martial arts, whether armed or unarmed, don't really give inherent advantages to the user as fighters can simply adapt. In short, I see santoryu and sanji's black leg style as equally competitive when it comes to fighting.

And yeah, I held sanji in a higher standard than several other strawhats in this regard. Namely franky, ussop, and nami... Sanji has been reduced to the likes of them who rely on high tech chikanery rather than actual innate strength, martial arts, haki and training. When originally he was an actual martial artist who carried his weight through sheer balls and strength. And don't get me wrong, i don't hold any of that against franky, ussop and nami. If anything I enjoy how they fight and it is a tragedy that the new world does not feature substantially more of them. It's just sanji whose "upgrade" has made him less than he was. It's just sanji whose "upgrade" showcases how far behind he has fallen behind luffy and zoro.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 7, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 7, 2019 ---

And don't get me wrong, the issue here is specifically that sanji does not appear to be improving on the other areas. IF he had already evidenced actual growth in other areas (physical strength, haki, martial arts) I'd be fine with him getting into high tech chikanery for an extra kick.

The thing is, Zoro couldn't have had Shusui break or crack against Vergo, unlike Sanji's leg.

 

[hokageji]

Sanji pushed his pride aside to don the suit

When Zoro pushed aside his pride to train with Mihawk no one saw it as weak and he was actually praised. What hipocrisy...

Its not Hypocrisy. Your reference is false equivalence.
Not everything has to be a Sanji vs Zoro thing. Sanji explicitly stated that he will never accept it. He has shown disdain for his family and the tech that RS is made of is most likely using human experimentation.

 

[jaymizzo]

Its not Hypocrisy. Your reference is false equivalence.
Not everything has to be a Sanji vs Zoro thing. Sanji explicitly stated that he will never accept it. He has shown disdain for his family and the tech that RS is made of is most likely using human experimentation.

Using the suit has been a help for the SHs. Sanji, like Zoro, pushed away his pride to help the crew/Luffy.

Its not even true that Sanji has actually lagged that much behind Zoro. They both specialize in very different things and have grown a lot in those areas. Zoro with armament and Sanji with his observation as seen in WCI against Katakuri attempt.

The raid suit is to Sanji what Enma is to Zoro.

And Lawl at whoever said Hyozo is arguably stronger than Hodi.