Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

Who will be Sanji's main opponent during the Raid on Onigashima?


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Grandmaster Woro

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Overall I am not of the idea that zoro or sanji could take on their equivalent kaido subordinate. Which would be king and queen respectively. Considering zoro is getting a haki boost and has never used azura in the new world while sanji's haki is subpar and his boost is just a raid suit I am more inclined to thinking zoro is closer to king than sanji is to queen at least. And even then zoro doesn't have the feats behind him to actually justify defeating king.

Anyways, the scenario that makes the most sense IMO is that multiple people take on king, queen and jack. As in, each of them being defeated by at least 2 people. Not sure of which two people of course. I assume that for the sake of plot you will have at least inuarashi and nekomamushi against jack though. Zoro vs kyoshiro seems possible but that really depends on where kyoshiro's alliance is. We can't rule out kyoshiro fighting someone else within orochi's army or kaido's crew if he is an ally to hiyori. Overall I am of the idea that sanji will end up fighting one of the numbers. If the numbers are the equivalent to kaido's core crewmembers then that is a feat appropriate for sanji.
Strawhat fighters going to get haki boost to rival YC.
I feel like oda is rushing the series towards its ending, and zoro has to reached YC level sooner if he wants to survive against mihawk
 

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Strawhat fighters going to get haki boost to rival YC.
I feel like oda is rushing the series towards its ending, and zoro has to reached YC level sooner if he wants to survive against mihawk
Sanji doesn't seem anywhere near a haki boost though. His haki so far is subpar at least when it comes to armor haki and his only boost at this stage in the game is the raid suit.
 

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Sanji doesn't seem anywhere near a haki boost though. His haki so far is subpar at least when it comes to armor haki and his only boost at this stage in the game is the raid suit.
Sanji will have extreme difficulty like luffy did against katakuri and blossomed his haki to certain level. Add raid suit to that and sanji can land strong hits on the tough YC
 

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Well Sanjino has gotten the raid suit which solves several problems for him. First, it boosts his durability, he can take more damage with it and if it isnt enough then the invisibility comes into play and plot can always make an opponent have bad CoO so he cannot pick Sanji up with it. Conveniently the RS could also be a perfect shield against Queen's plague and the only thing Sanjino actually lacks for that fight is firepower, something that would take a Zoan permanently out/for long time.

Zoro actually has decent feats, even impressive but they are subtle. Nameless slash splitting a stone mountain for example, where does he need more...
Being crushed by gravity and despite that, he managed to push back an Admiral with flying nameless Ittoryu slash.
Surely, both of them will have harder fights than ever before but it remains obvious that Zoro has walked casually through the New World without ever being pushed anywhere close to his maximum ability, he didnt even have a need to use pre-TS Asura, not to mention anything new...


I think Kidd's eyes are on Kaido and he wont participate anywhere else.
It'd be a pretty bad development if sanji relies on plot in order to run into people who are bad at COO so that his invisibility is useful though. I'd assume that kaido's core crewmembers in general wouldn't struggle with invisibility at least. It does seem like the raid suit's most obvious advantage at this point is durability. I suppose the thrusters in it would boost sanji's kicking power (though I still object to sanji specifically relying of gadgets to be worth something, that's just unfair to the character).... Mobility wise its hard to imagine the raid suit mattering all that much since sanji already had sky and blue walk to give him the ability to either fly with substantial freedom or swim like a fishman. The chapter does make that point but it feels kinda silly....
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Sanji will have extreme difficulty like luffy did against katakuri and blossomed his haki to certain level. Add raid suit to that and sanji can land strong hits on the tough YC
I'd argue the opposite, the raid suit would get in the way of sanji training his haki like luffy did. Developing haki like luffy did against katakuri relies on the user being in a life or death situation in order to push yourself further. The raid suit mitigating the risk gets in the way of being in a real life or death situation. It'd take a fairly extreme situation for the raid suit to not get in the way of haki training. And even in that extreme situation if the point is training haki then sanji should just take it off.
 

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It'd be a pretty bad development if sanji relies on plot in order to run into people who are bad at COO so that his invisibility is useful though. I'd assume that kaido's core crewmembers in general wouldn't struggle with invisibility at least. It does seem like the raid suit's most obvious advantage at this point is durability. I suppose the thrusters in it would boost sanji's kicking power (though I still object to sanji specifically relying of gadgets to be worth something, that's just unfair to the character).... Mobility wise its hard to imagine the raid suit mattering all that much since sanji already had sky and blue walk to give him the ability to either fly with substantial freedom or swim like a fishman. The chapter does make that point but it feels kinda silly....
Queen seems tanky enough so plot can allow the bad CoO and still, at some point during the fight he will manage to get his hands on Sanji despite invisibility and that's where it goes south for Sanji. He will have to reply with something unseen before, his DJ on next level or something else.
RS itself is kinda the replacement for Hardening Haki so not sure how much he will develop in that section but I do expect some new stage of his firepower because thrusters arent boost big enough to down Queen for good.

I am betting on his fire element which was hinted back at TB and I hope it wasnt Hell Memories since those didnt look too impressive on balloon fish.
Sanji isnt tank type of a character without suit at least so he would have to rely on speed but that would end up in the same corner as invisibility, at some point the enemy would get their hands on Sanji. The main thing Sanji needs is far more firepower behind his kicks.
 

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Queen seems tanky enough so plot can allow the bad CoO and still, at some point during the fight he will manage to get his hands on Sanji despite invisibility and that's where it goes south for Sanji. He will have to reply with something unseen before, his DJ on next level or something else.
RS itself is kinda the replacement for Hardening Haki so not sure how much he will develop in that section but I do expect some new stage of his firepower because thrusters arent boost big enough to down Queen for good.

I am betting on his fire element which was hinted back at TB and I hope it wasnt Hell Memories since those didnt look too impressive on balloon fish.
Sanji isnt tank type of a character without suit at least so he would have to rely on speed but that would end up in the same corner as invisibility, at some point the enemy would get their hands on Sanji. The main thing Sanji needs is far more firepower behind his kicks.
Lately I've been a bit of the idea that sanji has to some up with something other than diable jambe. Sanji has been using it liberally since part two started, he pretty much can't do without it nowadays. If you compare how luffy and zoro use their respective powerups, gear 2 and 3 are used casually by luffy and has gear 4 in reserve while zoro hasn't needed his azura yet. Sanji using it like this to me points to sanji eventually getting something new or better than it. It also takes away from it that oven exist since his fruit is basically an upgraded diable jambe. And that fire is so common an upgrade an attack that luffy and zoro have their over versions of fire covered attacks... Some time ago I had the idea that perhaps sanji was a late bloomer when it comes to the mutations his father subjected him to. Though based on sanji's suit it would kinda look like the abilities his siblings possess are also suit related so if sanji gets a boost via this it would likely be just a generic increase in strength....

I also don't see how sanji can do with merely mediocre armor haki in the long run. Even if your main type is observation haki, armor haki is at the core of combat in the series. The benefits of having increasingly advanced version of it are staggering. As in, the series has shown a substantial increase in defense and offense when upgrading from conventional invisible haki to hardening... And going from that to projecting it also presents a substantial increase in both. So far we have seen even hyoguro successfully survive an attack from big mom when using haki projection. Add to that other examples like the admirals protecting the scaffold from WB during the marineford war. The only scenario where it makes sense for sanji to keep mediocre haki in the long run is one where he isn't meant to be one of the strawhat's big players. Rayleigh evidenced being capable of all forms of advanced haki and even in his advanced age he was able to go toe to toe with kizaru.... The admirals likely have all currently known versions of advanced haki and I am willing to bet the yonko do to. It wouldn't be too surprising if top 3 yonko commanders have at least one version of advanced haki available to them as well. If sanji is meant to go up against top 3 yonko commanders then he simply can't do without hardening and at least one form of advanced haki. The raid suit can't compensate for a haki deficiency. At a minimum the raid suit really isn't a real alternative to it. If the raid suit is meant to be looked at like a sword or whatever other tool then his only alternative is to excel at martial arts and haki. Otherwise the suit is just a crutch.

Honestly, the raid suit works better as a powerup for ussop and franky than it does for sanji......
 

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Honestly, the raid suit works better as a powerup for ussop and franky than it does for sanji......
This is honestly why I'm still pretty baffled as to why Sanji got it. Not only could Usopp and Franky benefit from it, but especially Nami and Chopper. It seems perfect for them.

The only thing new that Sanji has that the suit gives him is invisibility. All it's other enhancements are superfluous because he already had those traits. He can already fly and if he can run underwater, I don't see why he can't run on top of water as well. He isn't a tank like Luffy or Zoro, but he's far from fragile and he can freaking dodge, so it's not like he needed a shield either.

I'm holding out hope that Franky and Usopp produce it for those 4 Strawhats and Sanji's gets destroyed in a comical fashion, so we can get an expanded fight with his Hell's Memories technique that happens when he rages. Him using that technique because he lost his dream of invisibility again would be perfect for him.
 

nik87

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Lately I've been a bit of the idea that sanji has to some up with something other than diable jambe. Sanji has been using it liberally since part two started, he pretty much can't do without it nowadays. If you compare how luffy and zoro use their respective powerups, gear 2 and 3 are used casually by luffy and has gear 4 in reserve while zoro hasn't needed his azura yet. Sanji using it like this to me points to sanji eventually getting something new or better than it. It also takes away from it that oven exist since his fruit is basically an upgraded diable jambe. And that fire is so common an upgrade an attack that luffy and zoro have their over versions of fire covered attacks... Some time ago I had the idea that perhaps sanji was a late bloomer when it comes to the mutations his father subjected him to. Though based on sanji's suit it would kinda look like the abilities his siblings possess are also suit related so if sanji gets a boost via this it would likely be just a generic increase in strength....

I also don't see how sanji can do with merely mediocre armor haki in the long run. Even if your main type is observation haki, armor haki is at the core of combat in the series. The benefits of having increasingly advanced version of it are staggering. As in, the series has shown a substantial increase in defense and offense when upgrading from conventional invisible haki to hardening... And going from that to projecting it also presents a substantial increase in both. So far we have seen even hyoguro successfully survive an attack from big mom when using haki projection. Add to that other examples like the admirals protecting the scaffold from WB during the marineford war. The only scenario where it makes sense for sanji to keep mediocre haki in the long run is one where he isn't meant to be one of the strawhat's big players. Rayleigh evidenced being capable of all forms of advanced haki and even in his advanced age he was able to go toe to toe with kizaru.... The admirals likely have all currently known versions of advanced haki and I am willing to bet the yonko do to. It wouldn't be too surprising if top 3 yonko commanders have at least one version of advanced haki available to them as well. If sanji is meant to go up against top 3 yonko commanders then he simply can't do without hardening and at least one form of advanced haki. The raid suit can't compensate for a haki deficiency. At a minimum the raid suit really isn't a real alternative to it. If the raid suit is meant to be looked at like a sword or whatever other tool then his only alternative is to excel at martial arts and haki. Otherwise the suit is just a crutch.

Honestly, the raid suit works better as a powerup for ussop and franky than it does for sanji......
Not sure what you mean with something else but the fire theme seems constant with Sanji so if he replaces DJ with something else it will probably be something with fire again... His mutations could get triggered by Queen's plague which forces the target to burn within and Sanji would have to possibly outburn it to survive, burn the burning plague so to speak.

I agree that CoA seems the core mechanic of the fights and it's the one Sanji lacks the most. Blasting Haki could be useful for his kicks but for someone who didnt use Hardening, seems weird to jump straight to blasting but it isnt impossible since Hardening doesnt prevent blasting. RS replaces Hardening at least when it comes to defense, might even be better but it isnt invincible, it will be broken through sooner or later.

Yonkos and Admirals posses for sure at least one type of advanced Haki but I wouldnt say that for all Yonko commanders, maybe the right-hand-men like Katakuri. Cracker didnt seem to have any advanced type of Haki. There is also a possibility that brutes like Kaido dont have advanced Haki because their natural stats are over the top anyway.
 

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This is honestly why I'm still pretty baffled as to why Sanji got it. Not only could Usopp and Franky benefit from it, but especially Nami and Chopper. It seems perfect for them.

The only thing new that Sanji has that the suit gives him is invisibility. All it's other enhancements are superfluous because he already had those traits. He can already fly and if he can run underwater, I don't see why he can't run on top of water as well. He isn't a tank like Luffy or Zoro, but he's far from fragile and he can freaking dodge, so it's not like he needed a shield either.

I'm holding out hope that Franky and Usopp produce it for those 4 Strawhats and Sanji's gets destroyed in a comical fashion, so we can get an expanded fight with his Hell's Memories technique that happens when he rages. Him using that technique because he lost his dream of invisibility again would be perfect for him.
Good call on nami, it seems like a good opportunity to improve her clima tact as well. I suppose it could have happened over the small timeskip the manga had. Dunno if this would be specially useful for chopper though. Nami, ussop and frankly by default rely on tools which could be improved via technological advancement, which isn't the case for chopper.

I don't really see zoro or luffy as particularly tanky tbh. I mean, they are but I wouldn't say that that is a trait they hold over sanji. Or that sanji's trait is speed either. he is certainly mobile but there is no way he is actually "faster" that zoro or luffy in a meaningful manner. If he was he could simply blitz either.. But that is clearly impossible. Sanji does have substantial mobility because he was literally fly but that doesn't mean sanji is in context a speedster.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Not sure what you mean with something else but the fire theme seems constant with Sanji so if he replaces DJ with something else it will probably be something with fire again... His mutations could get triggered by Queen's plague which forces the target to burn within and Sanji would have to possibly outburn it to survive, burn the burning plague so to speak.

I agree that CoA seems the core mechanic of the fights and it's the one Sanji lacks the most. Blasting Haki could be useful for his kicks but for someone who didnt use Hardening, seems weird to jump straight to blasting but it isnt impossible since Hardening doesnt prevent blasting. RS replaces Hardening at least when it comes to defense, might even be better but it isnt invincible, it will be broken through sooner or later.

Yonkos and Admirals posses for sure at least one type of advanced Haki but I wouldnt say that for all Yonko commanders, maybe the right-hand-men like Katakuri. Cracker didnt seem to have any advanced type of Haki. There is also a possibility that brutes like Kaido dont have advanced Haki because their natural stats are over the top anyway.
I didn't mean anything specific, just something different from diable jambe that would make for a superior powerup. It's hard to imagine a powerup for diable jambe at this point, that kinda sounds like simply more fire...

Sanji shouldn't skip hardening of course but on the other hand this wouldn't exactly be an issue. Take the kuja, they are able to extend their haki over their arrows and the lot of them don't seem capable of hardening. I don't think there necessarily is a specific order to these techniques.

What I said was that its likely that top yonko commanders (as in marco, jozu, vista homologues) have at least one of the advanced versions of haki. In some cases we already have evidence of this... Extending haki beyond your body is fairly standard for swordsmen after all. I suppose we can't rule out kaido being that big a monster that he got this far without haki but I honestly don't think it's the case. Certainly sufficient brute force can overcome haki but kaido would have to be far more ridiculous than I already think he is to have gotten this far with his mere strength and without considerable haki skills. Kaido and big mom are monsters but I would think they seem that way because of their nearly supernatural skill and talent rather than actually being monsters. Big could could be hurt when she despaired... to me that always sounded like she could be hurt when her haki became inactive tbh.
 

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to me that always sounded like she could be hurt when her haki became inactive tbh.
Yeah, I have the same felling... It’s the same thing with WB CoO that was mentioned it’s super good (When Squad stabled him in Marineford), I have the felling that’s WB can maintain his Haki active all time, even when he’s sleeping. BM durability looks the same thing for me. What’s makes me question if Kaido “scales” are truly because his DF powers, his Haki or his origins, if he’s not human, what I personally don’t think it’s the case
 

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I don't really see zoro or luffy as particularly tanky tbh. I mean, they are but I wouldn't say that that is a trait they hold over sanji. Or that sanji's trait is speed either. he is certainly mobile but there is no way he is actually "faster" that zoro or luffy in a meaningful manner. If he was he could simply blitz either.. But that is clearly impossible. Sanji does have substantial mobility because he was literally fly but that doesn't mean sanji is in context a speedster.
I'd say they are generally shown taking more punishment than Sanji. Of course, in group battles, the 3 generally get the same amount of damage. Both Zoro and Sanji took a full punch from Oars if I recall correctly and got back up soon after.

But in solo fight, Sanji is shown being more evasive with his moves rather than head on. That's more what I meant.

I feel like we haven't even explored most of what Sanji was implied to have with Diable Jambe at that start of the timeskip. I already mentioned Hell's Memories, but we also had that Well Cooked: Grill Shot move that implied a series of techniques under the Well Cooked designation. We also had Flying Pan Spectrum which is the only move with any relation to what he may have picked up from Iva. Sanji's not done anything new after those 3 moves and has just used more powerful variations of moves he's had since before the skip.

As for the haki thing, as I mentioned some pages back, I'm hoping Diable Jambe is revealed to have been an underdeveloped form of Ryou that he can now fully develop or he incorporates the two together.
 

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I don't really see zoro or luffy as particularly tanky tbh. I mean, they are but I wouldn't say that that is a trait they hold over sanji. Or that sanji's trait is speed either. he is certainly mobile but there is no way he is actually "faster" that zoro or luffy in a meaningful manner. If he was he could simply blitz either.. But that is clearly impossible. Sanji does have substantial mobility because he was literally fly but that doesn't mean sanji is in context a speedster.
Really?

IMHO I would sayt Sanji advantage in speed is clear, just like Brook

In regards of durability, Sanji often goes down from injuries, while Luffy or Zoro continue with what should be lethal injuries.
 

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Orochi will be YC1 tier if he is zoro big match in wano. Otherwise, king (or kaido) is still the big match for zoro

Sanji probably will fight queen...i dont see sanji fighting king coz it seemed king is resistant to fire. I mean, his head is literally on fire
The reason why he cant fight King is because he cant deal with master swordsmen. When even Luffy is being kept away from such fights then Sanji has nothing to search for in them either. Queen needs to go barehanded too or at least be a slow ass swinging swords like Luffy.
Overall I am not of the idea that zoro or sanji could take on their equivalent kaido subordinate. Which would be king and queen respectively. Considering zoro is getting a haki boost and has never used azura in the new world while sanji's haki is subpar and his boost is just a raid suit I am more inclined to thinking zoro is closer to king than sanji is to queen at least. And even then zoro doesn't have the feats behind him to actually justify defeating king.

Anyways, the scenario that makes the most sense IMO is that multiple people take on king, queen and jack. As in, each of them being defeated by at least 2 people. Not sure of which two people of course. I assume that for the sake of plot you will have at least inuarashi and nekomamushi against jack though. Zoro vs kyoshiro seems possible but that really depends on where kyoshiro's alliance is. We can't rule out kyoshiro fighting someone else within orochi's army or kaido's crew if he is an ally to hiyori. Overall I am of the idea that sanji will end up fighting one of the numbers. If the numbers are the equivalent to kaido's core crewmembers then that is a feat appropriate for sanji.
Nah, Sanji is either Queen or King for final fight. T6H/Numbers he already defeated one. No point being an big threat to him when PO and Drake didn't do much to warn him to be serious threats. Plus if Luffy going to face to face Kaido, make sense for his top guys facing tier below which are YC lvl opponents. Sanji will face YCs for sure, but Zoro is more facing Orochi who I can say is more YC4 lvl at best, but still challenge given his abilities if like his real life lore, he can't be cut down which be stressing and struggle for Zoro to beat him down if he can't be cut. Sanji has shown a lot to display how tough he is, but Zoro in this arc has been use kinda hype tool for past 4 fights. He lately been of talks of concern if he do anything when his durability and stamina are no longer same as before.

Just saying, but let's not get off topic too much as Oda is clearing want them to be close to Luffy in power and fight top tiers as time goes on. If they going to surpass Roger Pirates, Sanji and Zoro will do what they can to support and face challenges on their end too.
 

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Really?

IMHO I would sayt Sanji advantage in speed is clear, just like Brook

In regards of durability, Sanji often goes down from injuries, while Luffy or Zoro continue with what should be lethal injuries.
The only time I can remember that happening was when he fought Bon Clay, otherwise Sanji continues as well.
 

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The only time I can remember that happening was when he fought Bon Clay, otherwise Sanji continues as well.
Sanji kept fighting a lot in many fights especially after Jabra after piercing him with his claws that Usopp almost die too after impact, so Sanji's durability always been up there with Luffy and Zoro. That hasn't change even in NW saga as he tank hits that would beat and kill others before too.
 

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Really?

IMHO I would sayt Sanji advantage in speed is clear, just like Brook

In regards of durability, Sanji often goes down from injuries, while Luffy or Zoro continue with what should be lethal injuries.
I always saw brook more as light rather than fast per say. I suppose his acceleration could be unusually high given his low weight but that is different from being the fastest. How much sense would it make for brook to actually be faster or even as fast as luffy or sanji? I'd argue none. As in, do you see brook dodging luffy's gear 2 or whichever gear 4 form? Or even landing a hit on them? speed is a pretty big factor in combat within OP, specially for martial artist who don't rely on shenanigans to win. If you are up a substantially faster opponent then you are pretty much dead. How else does the fight between ryuma and zoro make sense? As in, we saw that ryuma bested brook in pretty much every regard. And then zoro went blow for blow with ryuma and came out on top.

And sure, you can have people of the same tier with different strength/stamina/endurance/speed stats. But if you have a "run circles around someone" speed advantage then.... well, you are likely going to run circles around that person (barring shenanigans).

As for durability.... thinking about it it really looks like durability is more plot induced than anything. i mean, we saw zoro standing after he absorbed all the damage that luffy accumulated during the thriller bark fight. Zoro is badass and all but that clearly doesn't make that much sense.
 

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I'd say the examples that the two of you have shown are instances of plot induced fragility. Sanji's taken harder blows and Zoro's taken significantly worse stabs. They are knocked out so the story could continue to where it needed to be. In Sanji's case, that was Zoro's moment to show his loyalty to the crew. In Zoro's case, that was just an easy way to allow Gyukimaru to escape.

It's not really a mark against their durability.
 

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The only time I can remember that happening was when he fought Bon Clay, otherwise Sanji continues as well.
The same happened with Vergo. I would also mention Sanji being easily defeated by Arlong or Doflamingo. These may have been opponents stronger than him, but Luffy or Zoro can take some beating before going down, in fact the two have a list of inhuman level of durability.
 

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The same happened with Vergo. I would also mention Sanji being easily defeated by Arlong or Doflamingo. These may have been opponents stronger than him, but Luffy or Zoro can take some beating before going down, in fact the two have a list of inhuman level of durability.
All 3 are inhuman as didn't Nami stated them as Monsters in Thriller Bark. Pretty sure it's not for one person on their durability. Also Vergo never defeated him while Doffy while lost was very strong threat that Law lost to and Zoro couldn't do anything to his Birdcage at all.
 

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The same happened with Vergo. I would also mention Sanji being easily defeated by Arlong or Doflamingo. These may have been opponents stronger than him, but Luffy or Zoro can take some beating before going down, in fact the two have a list of inhuman level of durability.
What? Against Vergo Sanji was still fighting and moving, and he ran and kicked like nothing happened. Against Doflamingo Sanji was tied up, and even Luffy would have been defeated by that if he didn't have the ability to expand his body with haki imbued. Against Arlong, didn't Sanji go down after freeing Luffy, or was that Zoro after being thrown by Luffy? Sanji also has the ability to take beatings before going down.
 
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