I seem to remember him doing something like that with post Likes, because we didn't want dead players or spectators contributing to the game in that way. Maybe there's something that could be done there, but yeah...
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They're not allowed to point out someone hiding? lol
I told you many times already, you're new to the game. This game is about deception, it's dirty. It's not supposed to be "fair". If someone lies about you and people believe them, that's kind of tough shit.
I see your point and maybe there can be some way to address it that makes sense, but the response can't be disproportional to the issue. And I think you're making a way bigger issue out of it than it really is.
There is no such thread. There was maybe something @FaustXIII did with personal player winrates but I never updated it when I saw that even back then it wasn‘t correct with some players that name-changed a couple times.
Take this role if Hosts want DL option for their game, finally included some rules regarding DL in the rule thread so we no longer have hosts doing things differently like letting DLs happen right away, after an extension, after an extension but after tieing again, not letting DLs happen at, decide with coin-toss, etc. Because despite what the roles say happen here:
If one or more players have the same amount of votes and locked votes, each player is getting the possibility to change his vote one more time. The regular day phase is being extended for the means of further discussions.
If the voting result is the same by the end of the extended day phase, both players are being lynched.
I had plenty of different experience regarding DL in various games despite what it says here.
Changes the above to "coin-toss between tied players to decide death" and it would prevent extensions thus making the game faster and it avoids DL obsession, often resulting in lengthening the game instead of shortening it.
Thought it would be a fun idea to see a Vigilante shoot twice or for a PGO to "reload" his gun after already using it or a Strongman tricking a townie role to give him a 2nd unblockable kill, etc. And if we get more one-time-use roles like Troublemaker above, this role's value rises.
Basically Insane Doc without chance to kill but still chance to fail + day-protection ability like BG but only in case of night action success.
Thought a "support" role would be pretty cool depending on action and situation (like two dets target PGO; instead of coin-toss due Maid support the other det's action happens first and he dies, etc) especially if said support could also be unhelpful. Maybe helpful/unhelpful could be changed to sane, insane which could also warrant a naive Maid or a paranoid Maid if the insane should have 50/50 on whenever raising a priority level or sinking it.
A simple redirect action that could make use of early BP claims trying to redirect kill actions to them (and by accident end up killing a fake BP Mafia claim with their very own team kill action) or who simply hopes to redirect mafia blocks and such to less important targets. Like Prostitute could work in town's favor or against it if det and doc actions end up redirected.
Basically a "present-day Mortician" who knows what actions were used on the target but not from who. Basically the whole playerbase is her neighborhood now but she can only observe one person per night. Unlike Mortician she finds out nothing about past nights, only the current one.
The idea is to have a vote related Role who gains stronger the more Townies are lynched (by collecting "Wills" dues the Notary name) but weaker the more Mafia are lynched. Thus this role impacts voting by its vote having more value than others. Its downsize is that it cannot really control the flow of growth or decrease due being passive. It can hide its high value by voting either for the already highest voted for (because it doesn't matter if players see 6 votes while it actually has 8 due the Notary vote being worth 3) or voting for the lowest (so that 2 votes become 4 but still lower than 5 or 6 of somebody else). Same goes for low value as it effects the vote count overall (meaning a Notary of a successful Townie group lynching many Mafias in quick succession can hide his low vote value by voting for the lowest voted for lynch victim or he uses it on the 2nd or 3rd highest voted for as readers will only see total vote amount but not their value aka they see 5 but those 5 are worth 3 only due notary being at -2 with his own vote.).
The idea is that the Notary could either become a strong Townie voting Pillar late-game if thing went south for Townie or even supports Townie despite some Mafia kills as his low vote count could prevent a townie from getting lynched over somebody else due Mafias misleading and voting for the framed Townie. Ofc Notary both strong and weak could also work in favor of the Mafia but that is a good weakness vote-relating roles should have.
This role also works the opposite way for Mafia.
Works similar like Townie Notary with the exception that due having a known team from the start it is stronger as it knows who to use a high value vote on or who to keep safe by reducing the vote amount due his low value vote.
Basically a Freeman/Innocent Child with control over the most important part of the day besides sharing of informations and role hints/claims, but on the Mafia side meaning they want to keep such a role for either a crucial time or to frame a townie by "saving" him/her. However their Brought Judge gets found out by town after a couple of days so they cannot keep the one-time-action for the end of the game because he gets found out before. Also I found the idea of an "Innocent Child" version for Mafia interesting because it puts time pressure on Mafia when to use the role's action, plus town might not even want to "waste" their time on killing a Brought Judge if he had already used his role, similar to the used up Strongman last game.
I'd like to propose a change to Mason role though I do not know if this needs to be done here or else where:
Basically a "level up" Mason system based on lynching Not-Townie roles. Could either be that they chose a role or that it follows a level up system like snitch-inspector-guardian or other way around, so the more successful lynches the better, more useful roles promotions.
Proposal for Mafia Burden:
Proposal for Mafia Assassin:
It is still a permanent Strongman kill action, but at least it gives Town the chance to talk about their action results or to votelock. That way Daykills become more tactical due the Absolute Majority Voting rule, because if availability and speed is no longer a deciding factor in daykilling, the knowledge and skill when to daykill and when to return to nightkills to avoid a daykill being stopped by Absolute Majority Voting rule becomes more important, meaning Assassin might become less of a "spam daykills" role and actually more of an "Assassin". The "at minimum" part means that the Host can activate daykills immediately if send by Assassin later after the half a day phase mark.
Proposal for Mafia Pirate:
Proposal for Lovers:
Idea is for Lovers to become more versatile than just talking. Vows can also be a "one thing only", either each Vow can be used only once per game, giving Energy Drink Promoter even 3rd Party options to refuel, or the Lovers have to chose a Vow at the start of the game. Obviously a Vow action cannot be done at the same time as their regular actions. Vows could be further weaken by having both Lovers using the same Vow on the same target which doubles the chances of being found out, blocked or redirected as the Vow would fail without both Lovers doing it at the same time.
New TP proposal as secondary role:
I got the WW idea for "troll roles" of towns that seem to have actions but are overall useless. Basically they still do something they are just unaware that their every 2nd action is a kill action. I also liked the idea of a 3rd Party role that if never triggered and lynched would win with Town, happily unaware of his monster genes in his body.
Also I think @uberfayt Samurai should be given a voting by the Council because a "PGO Boyguard" would increase the need for a Mafia Doctor protecting the killer/Mafia Det/Mafia Escort/etc from "return fire" roles and other killing roles like insane doc or 2nd Mafia/TP targeting the killer. Here is the role's description again, adapted BG description with Samurai changes and added Daykill protection to make it more Marytr aka BG, I apologize in advance to @uberfayt if this is not the wording he wants for his role, if so please ignore it:
@Copy Panda If you dislike the Name but not exactly the action of the Fallen Noble I can change the role name to something else or more fitting:
Added a restriction that the Robber has to commit to the same lynch target with both votes as well that he cannot have more than one robbed vote. He can however after a kill simply use the vote at a later day and let other Mafias do kills instead. If he does kills while having a robbed vote in his pocket he cannot get anymore than that, the old one stays. I think Robber is a simple name, it has a direct bound to what its does and it is a criminal occupation befitting the Mafia. And with the restrictions it is not overpowered.
Take this role if Hosts want DL option for their game, finally included some rules regarding DL in the rule thread so we no longer have hosts doing things differently like letting DLs happen right away, after an extension, after an extension but after tieing again, not letting DLs happen at, decide with coin-toss, etc. Because despite what the roles say happen here:
If one or more players have the same amount of votes and locked votes, each player is getting the possibility to change his vote one more time. The regular day phase is being extended for the means of further discussions.
If the voting result is the same by the end of the extended day phase, both players are being lynched.
I had plenty of different experience regarding DL in various games despite what it says here.
Changes the above to "coin-toss between tied players to decide death" and it would prevent extensions thus making the game faster and it avoids DL obsession, often resulting in lengthening the game instead of shortening it.
The solution is a salient role, not a role I think. This role is a buzzkill; just agreeing that DL can happen after a vote tie is fine. Sometimes hosts will prefer to end the day immediately after a certain day or player count, but this role won't magically fix any inconsistencies.
Thought it would be a fun idea to see a Vigilante shoot twice or for a PGO to "reload" his gun after already using it or a Strongman tricking a townie role to give him a 2nd unblockable kill, etc. And if we get more one-time-use roles like Troublemaker above, this role's value rises.
These roles rely on other players, doesn't offer any real incentive, feedback or player skill expression. The first role seems especially uninspired, I don't think there are a lot of roles that benefit from raising priority and a tonne of roles rely on their priority for balance sake anyway.
Basically Insane Doc without chance to kill but still chance to fail + day-protection ability like BG but only in case of night action success.
Thought a "support" role would be pretty cool depending on action and situation (like two dets target PGO; instead of coin-toss due Maid support the other det's action happens first and he dies, etc) especially if said support could also be unhelpful. Maybe helpful/unhelpful could be changed to sane, insane which could also warrant a naive Maid or a paranoid Maid if the insane should have 50/50 on whenever raising a priority level or sinking it.
A simple redirect action that could make use of early BP claims trying to redirect kill actions to them (and by accident end up killing a fake BP Mafia claim with their very own team kill action) or who simply hopes to redirect mafia blocks and such to less important targets. Like Prostitute could work in town's favor or against it if det and doc actions end up redirected.
If it was an untargeted/random redirect, it would be a bit better, but even if it's random it's kind of a lame power. I don't super dislike it but it's very strong imo
Basically a "present-day Mortician" who knows what actions were used on the target but not from who. Basically the whole playerbase is her neighborhood now but she can only observe one person per night. Unlike Mortician she finds out nothing about past nights, only the current one.
The idea is to have a vote related Role who gains stronger the more Townies are lynched (by collecting "Wills" dues the Notary name) but weaker the more Mafia are lynched. Thus this role impacts voting by its vote having more value than others. Its downsize is that it cannot really control the flow of growth or decrease due being passive. It can hide its high value by voting either for the already highest voted for (because it doesn't matter if players see 6 votes while it actually has 8 due the Notary vote being worth 3) or voting for the lowest (so that 2 votes become 4 but still lower than 5 or 6 of somebody else). Same goes for low value as it effects the vote count overall (meaning a Notary of a successful Townie group lynching many Mafias in quick succession can hide his low vote value by voting for the lowest voted for lynch victim or he uses it on the 2nd or 3rd highest voted for as readers will only see total vote amount but not their value aka they see 5 but those 5 are worth 3 only due notary being at -2 with his own vote.).
The idea is that the Notary could either become a strong Townie voting Pillar late-game if thing went south for Townie or even supports Townie despite some Mafia kills as his low vote count could prevent a townie from getting lynched over somebody else due Mafias misleading and voting for the framed Townie. Ofc Notary both strong and weak could also work in favor of the Mafia but that is a good weakness vote-relating roles should have.
This role also works the opposite way for Mafia.
Way too strong, way too much work for the host, basically just a stronger townie.
Works similar like Townie Notary with the exception that due having a known team from the start it is stronger as it knows who to use a high value vote on or who to keep safe by reducing the vote amount due his low value vote.
Basically a Freeman/Innocent Child with control over the most important part of the day besides sharing of informations and role hints/claims, but on the Mafia side meaning they want to keep such a role for either a crucial time or to frame a townie by "saving" him/her. However their Brought Judge gets found out by town after a couple of days so they cannot keep the one-time-action for the end of the game because he gets found out before. Also I found the idea of an "Innocent Child" version for Mafia interesting because it puts time pressure on Mafia when to use the role's action, plus town might not even want to "waste" their time on killing a Brought Judge if he had already used his role, similar to the used up Strongman last game.
Only good if there's a person on their team before that day they can save. Especially in the end game very strong. Not a good addition.
I'd like to propose a change to Mason role though I do not know if this needs to be done here or else where:
Basically a "level up" Mason system based on lynching Not-Townie roles. Could either be that they chose a role or that it follows a level up system like snitch-inspector-guardian or other way around, so the more successful lynches the better, more useful roles promotions.
Masons are already pretty strong as semi-self confirming and added coordination. Maybe give them an extra vote or sth, but this is too much
Proposal for Mafia Burden:
Proposal for Mafia Assassin:
It is still a permanent Strongman kill action, but at least it gives Town the chance to talk about their action results or to votelock. That way Daykills become more tactical due the Absolute Majority Voting rule, because if availability and speed is no longer a deciding factor in daykilling, the knowledge and skill when to daykill and when to return to nightkills to avoid a daykill being stopped by Absolute Majority Voting rule becomes more important, meaning Assassin might become less of a "spam daykills" role and actually more of an "Assassin". The "at minimum" part means that the Host can activate daykills immediately if send by Assassin later after the half a day phase mark.
I'm okay with them being able to kill but they shouldn't be able to steal from non-town
Proposal for Lovers:
Idea is for Lovers to become more versatile than just talking. Vows can also be a "one thing only", either each Vow can be used only once per game, giving Energy Drink Promoter even 3rd Party options to refuel, or the Lovers have to chose a Vow at the start of the game. Obviously a Vow action cannot be done at the same time as their regular actions. Vows could be further weaken by having both Lovers using the same Vow on the same target which doubles the chances of being found out, blocked or redirected as the Vow would fail without both Lovers doing it at the same time.
Too complex, maybe they can get a blocking action if neither of them uses another night action, but the variation makes the games too complex. Just too much information to keep track of.
New TP proposal as secondary role:
I got the WW idea for "troll roles" of towns that seem to have actions but are overall useless. Basically they still do something they are just unaware that their every 2nd action is a kill action. I also liked the idea of a 3rd Party role that if never triggered and lynched would win with Town, happily unaware of his monster genes in his body.
Also I think @uberfayt Samurai should be given a voting by the Council because a "PGO Boyguard" would increase the need for a Mafia Doctor protecting the killer/Mafia Det/Mafia Escort/etc from "return fire" roles and other killing roles like insane doc or 2nd Mafia/TP targeting the killer. Here is the role's description again, adapted BG description with Samurai changes and added Daykill protection to make it more Marytr aka BG, I apologize in advance to @uberfayt if this is not the wording he wants for his role, if so please ignore it:
If you want daytime protection, I think it should be a dedicated role that reads something like 'turn player can pick 3 players every DP, if they get targeted by a day action, the day action failed, and the turn player can protect one person less the next phase'
@Copy Panda If you dislike the Name but not exactly the action of the Fallen Noble I can change the role name to something else or more fitting:
Added a restriction that the Robber has to commit to the same lynch target with both votes as well that he cannot have more than one robbed vote. He can however after a kill simply use the vote at a later day and let other Mafias do kills instead. If he does kills while having a robbed vote in his pocket he cannot get anymore than that, the old one stays. I think Robber is a simple name, it has a direct bound to what its does and it is a criminal occupation befitting the Mafia. And with the restrictions it is not overpowered.
Thanks, but doesn't mean enough Hosts will accept it though it is an interesting idea to have a suicidal BG type who also kills his killer. Maybe you get lucky and it does make it to the testing phase.
The idea behind the samurai is that he protects his target till his last breath, while making sure to eliminate every threat.
This role would've been very useful in this recent game for example where there too many killing parties. It would have evened the chances for townies a bit, if used properly.
Troublemaker (Townie)
Night Action - Can once per game tell the Host that the troublemaker wishes to agitate the Townsfolk and increase the lynch amount to two the following day. If successful, the Host announces at the start of the day phase that the top two voted players will be lynched today.
I like it actually. Would be a fun day if it starts with „you have to lynch 2 people today, top 2 voted are lynched“. A weaker version of a daykill. I‘d give everyone 2 votes that Day, which they cannot use on the same person.
I consider it less some solution to DLs(they‘re unlikely to happen, and that‘s probably for the best), and more as an interesting new role.
Energy Drink Promoter (Townie)
Night Action - Can once per game give another one-time-use-role an Energy Drink to refill their action to use it a second time in the game.
Not terrible, but very limited in number of roles that make use of this. It‘d be hard for a Mafia to convince him of giving it to him since that‘d require faking a daykill role. I don‘t see much relevant play with it other than „oh this guy daykilled, time to refill him next night“.
Nurse (Townie)
Night Action - The Nurse can "save" a person per night phase i.e. she will PM the host during the night phase and can request to protect a player, but has a 50% chance of failing to protect his target. If both survive the night and the Nurse had a successful protect action, then her target can‘t die the next day to any daykilling role.
Not sure about this. I generally dislike cointoss-based roles, though this could be another Assassin counter other than BG. Works the same way as BG however, so it only adds a small protection chance at night on top.
Helpful Maid (Townie)
Night Action - The Maid can support a player per night to rise his action's priority up by 1 Level. If a Level 1 Priority action gets support it becomes unblockable. The Maid does not know her support status.
Unhelpful Maid (Townie)
Night Action - The Maid can support a player per night but the action's priority sinks by 1 Level. If a Level 3 Priority action gets this kind of support it becomes unskilled with a 50% chance of failure. The Maid does not know her support status.
Confused Guide (Townie)
Night Action - Targets a player per night and redirects their target to a player of his choosing. If the Confused Guide dies, the Host reveals the list of targets and changed targets the past nights.
I‘m not sure whether we need or want redirecting roles that mess up everything. The post-death clarity is nice though. Maybe testable one day, not into it right now.
Notary (Townie)
Passive - Collects the votes of the lynched Townie/Mafia/TPs and adds their value to his own vote, increasing or decreasing it. A lynched Townie adds +1 to the Notary vote value to the Maximum of 3 including the Notary's own vote. A lynched Mafia/TP reduces the Notary vote value by -1 to the Minimum of -3.
Mafia Notary (Mafia)
Passive - Collects the votes of the lynched Townie/Mafia/TPs and adds their value to his own vote, increasing or decreasing it. A lynched Mafia/TP adds +1 to the Notary vote value to the Maximum of 3 including the Notary's own vote. A lynched Townie reduces the Notary vote value by -1 to the Minimum of -3.
Too overcomplicated for the effect it gives, and giving 1 player too many votes. I‘m sure there‘s more fun roles possible around the concept of voting and lynching than this.
Brought Judge (Mafia)
Day Action - Can once per game stop a lynching from happening. His role gets publicly confirmed by the Host at the start of a certain Day phase and he is told when.
No. Same as some other idea you once had that let a Townie role skip the lynch. Just that it‘s a lot worse as a mafia role. Lynching is the core of this game, James.
Mason(Townie): Masons are a Group of Townies that know each other to be innocent. They can communicate with each other at Night if they choose, but otherwise have no special abilities, until a Mason lynches a Mafia/TP with his vote, thus gaining a promotion to the next tier Mason role:
Mason Guardian: A Mason who acts as a Bodyguard.
Mason Inspector: A Mason who acts as a Det who doesn't know his sanity.
Mason Snitch: A Mason who acts as a Spy who doesn't know his sanity.
Mason‘s main strength are (supposedly) being confirmed and organized group within Town that are Town. So unless your host is Hardy Masons should be dangerous enough without this.
Burden (Mafia): The Burden is like the Freeman on the Mafia Side. When the Burden is lynched or killed, the next night phase will skipped. All role effects which would have happened that Night(for example Mafia Poisoner kill, the missing Night kill for the Assassin Daykill) are moved to the next Night phase.
This will be discussed separately soonish I‘m sure and we‘ll come to an agreement. So far I think both me and @Vandred understand your point with Assassin and I wouldn‘t mind it being changed or clarified.
Assassin (Mafia): The Assassin is a Mafia Member that may choose to kill at Daytime instead of the Night. Unlike Daytime Vigilantes he is not doing the Daykill publicly but via PM to the Host. Host activates the Daykill send to him after at minimum half the day phase has passed.
Mafia Pirate (Mafia): At a night of his choice the Mafia Pirate may choose another Player he wants to steal the ability from. From that point in the game, the robbed Players's role changes to 'Townie/Unskilled Mafia' without him knowing it and the Mafia Pirate is free to use it as his own. The Mafia Pirate knows the ability stolen and uses it at the proper Day or Night phase that the stolen role demands. All original clauses of the stolen ability apply. If the Mafia Pirate tries to steal the ability from a Third Party Member as primary role, the Mafia Pirate dies. The Mafia Pirate does have the ability to kill at night like a normal Mafia member, but he cannot steal and kill at the same Night Phase.
Stealing from other Mafias huh.. I suppose it‘s not terrible with how multiple-mafia games are becoming a thing. Poor Town Pirate is still in the gutter though.
Lovers(Third Party): The Lovers are secondary roles that are assigned to two players of different groups which uses "Vows" as actions. "Vows" include Lovers Pain (killing a target), Lovers Endurance (protecting one of the Lovers) and Lovers Hate (redirecting a target's action to another target). If only one of them remains, he commits suicide on the following night. They win if their number is equal or greater than the number of townies remaining and all other non-townies are dead. They can talk in private at each Night phase.
I dislike it, imo the Lovers are good enough to not need this. The utility of knowing both teams(hopefully used in a 1-mafia game..) + their primary roles should be all they need. Threesome too.
Werewolf (Third Party):
The Werewolf is a secondary role that the Townie player is not made aware of having. He can continue to write posts, vote and submit any day or night actions he has. However every 2nd Night his Action, if he has one, is autoturned into a Kill Action. If the Werewolf Player gets targeted by a kill action, his Werewolf genes get triggered and the Werewolf role replaces his primary role, killing the attacker. The goal of the Werewolf player is then to win as a SK, if never triggered he wins with Town. The Werewolf counts as a non-Townie for Detective investigations, as well as for Mason/Mentee recruitment.
Interesting enough for me. Is it put on Townies only? Depending on the primary role you give him his killing every 2 nights is either prevented or very mean with it being a Doctor lol.
Samurai (Townie)
The Samurai may pick a person he wants to protect each night. When this person is attacked at night the Samurai becomes the target instead and dies together with the attacker. If both survive the night then his target can‘t die the next day to any daykilling role. If his target died despite his protection, the Samurai commits Seppuku at the start of the day phase and dies.
Robber (Mafia):
Day Action - If the Robber has killed somebody successfully in the previous night he can use the stolen vote of his victim in the day besides his own. The vote of the victim can only be given as a locked vote. Both votes have to given to the same target but not at the same time. He cannot collect more than one robbed vote.
Theforgemaster(3rd party): Each night the forgemaster can raise a dead player to become part of his army. (It can be any dead player, mafia, town, or another 3rd, lynched or killed), once the number of his army is bigger than the number of players from other factions, he wins.(Ex. 5 players - 3 town, 2 mafias +him and his 5 person army, then he wins). The dead players that joined his army can no longer be targeted by mortician, because they are not dead anymore. His undead army dies with him.
-he can be blocked by any role
-If he becomes an illusion, he cannot revive any player, he just thinks he did
-Maybe he can receive a count of players in his army, but not sure if confirming his success on the action would be good. This is just a comment.
- when he dies, all the undead can be targeted by mortician again, including him
alternative version:
Theforgemaster(3rd party): Each night the forgemaster can raise a dead player to become part of his army. Each 2 nights (on even numbered nights) if the forgemaster is targeted by a spy/det, or any investigative roles, the player that investigated him gets a resukt of affiliation/action performed by one of the dead players In his army ( ex.: the det gets the affiliation of a random townie/mafia the forgemaster revived, a spy would get a target one of his dead players had or no result). When the number of his army is bigger than the number of players from other factions, he wins.The dead players that joined his army can no longer be targeted by mortician.
I had this idea, would like to know if its a playable role or not good at all. It is similar to Santa and shapeshifter, but he doesn’t really kill like some other 3rd parties.
Does the undead army know they undead, cuz for the first version, it's basically SS just not illusion that can be broken by actions but with dead players....
Sounds interesting, I like TPs that don‘t necessarily kill. Just unsure yet if it‘s fun to play for the player, as it‘s just safe-targetting and staying alive.
Does the undead army know they undead, cuz for the first version, it's basically SS just not illusion that can be broken by actions but with dead players....
I suppose they don’t XD but if there is a list of the players that became undead when forgemaster dies, it would be like “Hey, I was walking around with the forgemaster“ when they see it from deadpad.
The solution is a salient role, not a role I think. This role is a buzzkill; just agreeing that DL can happen after a vote tie is fine. Sometimes hosts will prefer to end the day immediately after a certain day or player count, but this role won't magically fix any inconsistencies.
The Troublemaker is there to make trouble, adding an extra lnych kill once per game ain't neither broken nor a buzzkill and while I agree that it won't magically fix everything, it could make things easier if players get told that on today's dayphase two people will die for certain. Suddenly knowing that being 2nd doesn't mean being safe anymore could add tension to the game while TM being nightrole meaning it can be blocked and prevented that way by Prostitute, Escort, BK or when killed and replaced by a SS.
These roles rely on other players, doesn't offer any real incentive, feedback or player skill expression. The first role seems especially uninspired, I don't think there are a lot of roles that benefit from raising priority and a tonne of roles rely on their priority for balance sake anyway.
Well, the main idea was to turn Priority 3 skills into the "unskilled" territory so that there is a chance of failure while pushing Priority 1 skills into the "untouchable" territory meaning being unblockable and the like.
If it was an untargeted/random redirect, it would be a bit better, but even if it's random it's kind of a lame power. I don't super dislike it but it's very strong imo
Also why should it be lame and strong at the same time? The Bk has shown that redirected actions work in-game without harming it, it is basically a "soft block" as you'd still get to use your action and get a result just not from the person you tried to use it on. Same for the Confused Guide but unlike BK his sole purpose is to "soft block" which depending on who he targets can hinder either town or mafia or benefit either of them.
Plus when he dies people get told who their redirected action actually targeted which depending on what people told each other could clear up some things, like finding out that somebody must have lied because he couldn't have used that action on that target and get a result or clearing up from which person said result actually refers to.
Maybe the whole "redirect" problem can be solved if the redirected person gets told after the night by the Host "Your action got redirected" but not to who and neither would BK nor CG know, except ofc when CG dies and we find his list.
Okay, but they are only too strong because they are in groups/have support besides their own votes. What about a solo Notary as a 3rd role?
This would add a passive 3rd Party role to the game, something we arguably do not have. Except maybe Lovers and that ain't a fair comparison due Lovers being secondary and the two Lovers often having active roles on their own.
This would also add a 3rd Party role based around votes, something we don't have yet either, except maybe the SS and that also isn't quite fair to compare as the SS can't control who the Illusions vote for just that their vote doesn't count anymore because they are dead already.
With either high or low vote value the Notary knows that his goal of a surplus of 5 Townie votes is difficult due Townie wanting to lynch Mafia and Mafia killing Townies at night. So if the Notary wants to win the game, sooner or later he has to use his high or low vote amount to influence the voting in his favor to gain value but at the same time that would trip people into noticing that not the first voted one died. And knowing the Notary role condition they could determinate his current worth and to which vote group he must have belong to to have influenced the voting to go the way he wanted it to.
So the Notary role would be one requiring a cool head, trying to manipulate townies into lynching each others, best without the notary's own support to remain hidden as long as possible, figure out how to hide his vote value in the voting list and ofc be lucky enough to live long enough to see a surplus of 5 Townie votes, thus winning the game by himself, similar to Santa, crushing all parties to the wall with his accumulated wealth!
I think this 3rd role could be a very engaging one and since it is a Solo role, it ain't overpowered as it needs a way to win on its own and has two parties, Townie and Mafia, opposing its win condition due Townie's goal to lynch Mafias, thus reducing his worth, and Mafia's goal to kill Townies at night, thus reducing the chances of getting Townies lynched to increase his worth.
I think it got a difficult win condition similar to Santa but it isn't impossible and I think winning this way could be very satisfying for the 3rd role Holder while also being a challenge for both Town and Mafia as at some point it would get obvious that the lynch result does not match the vote list.
But the Idea of an "Innocent Child" version with benefits for Mafia doesn't sound uninteresting, does it? Maybe the stop lynch is a too strong benefit but there could be other benefits that the role either has to use before being revealed or can only use after being revealed. Like being a stronger bomb when revealed but when lynched before that he can't kill anyone for example. It could also make Bomb defuser more valuable.
Wouldn't be an extra vote per Mason be too strong as well? Like a Group vote? If so why not have a "mason group action" similar to the "mafia team kill" where Mafia decide who uses the night kill to end a player? The MR got his recruiter ability the Masons got nothing but the knowledge who is with them but also the problem of not knowing if there is a Mafia mason among them. The Masons having some sort of team/group action on which target they need to agree on each night could make them more active parts of the game, by sharing the same action.
A lot of roles got updates, often with additional or changed wording to make the case more clear. Also it is just 8 words added. If the rules themselves can't make themselves clear, the role has to step up so that there are no misunderstandings.
As for the Assassin, giving him a tiny handicap is fine.
Right now it is an unrestrained Strongman with endless unstoppable kill actions. With the half a day phase restriction before being able to kill, we reduce the role's worth of time adaptability and speed as well as having people with important active roles known to Assassin being forced to stay awake till new day starts and if they somehow lived thanks to docs, BG and prostitutes and what not, being forced to write as quickly as possible a post before they get their throat slit. With 12 hours to go, people can be more relaxed about taking the start of the new day phase easier and the Assassin knows he cannot just kill people before they votelock him, like it happened just know with the kill order being send one minute before Raven's votelock post. Instead of spamming daykills all day long, the Assassin would have to work a bit smarter even if it is still an unrestrained Strongman role with a time limit now.
Too complex, maybe they can get a blocking action if neither of them uses another night action, but the variation makes the games too complex. Just too much information to keep track of.
What about a passive Vow? Like each night the Lovers can decide who of them receives a "sane doc protection" because "love overcomes everything". I mean, the moment one of them dies the other commits suicide. It would be just fair to give them some sort of chance to prevent death at night at least.
If you want daytime protection, I think it should be a dedicated role that reads something like 'turn player can pick 3 players every DP, if they get targeted by a day action, the day action failed, and the turn player can protect one person less the next phase'
No?
The Gambler and Robber are two different roles. The Gambler is supposed to not have an "instant confirmed town role" with Noble, similar to how Gry tries to have a "sickly mafia" to no longer have town go "oh phew, we have a 100% confirmed townie after night 1" whereas with Innocent Child we have to wait days before the reveal and Jesus needs to die to reveal his role.
The Gambler makes a bet to force a still living player to move his vote around like the politician does. The Robber on the other hand gains an extra vote only on a kill. One is a day action, the other a night action result used in any future dayphase. One is about manipulating players, framing them, making them question if the politician really is a townie or just MG acting as one, the other is about making a decision on who of the Mafia killing roles should use the kill action and if the robber gets it, have the robber problem when to use the vote as he would put a mark on himself and all others in the voting group with a stolen vote added to it.
Both have different purposes and different ways to handle those aka get their hands on another vote to move around.
I would like to make the MG stronger aka change him that way, yes. Like instead of kill immunity in case of a fail, that just nothing happens which would mean the MG would like to use his role more often as failure doesn't mean less possible kill targets for his Mafia.
I like it actually. Would be a fun day if it starts with „you have to lynch 2 people today, top 2 voted are lynched“. A weaker version of a daykill. I‘d give everyone 2 votes that Day, which they cannot use on the same person.
I consider it less some solution to DLs(they‘re unlikely to happen, and that‘s probably for the best), and more as an interesting new role.
I like the idea with 2 votes, especially late game when we have only few people that could change the feeling of the day lynch as the townie's lynch importance basically doubled. I guess that means the Troublemaker would fit into the Townie Killing Roles though instead of killing himself he just offers a 2nd kill opportunity for all players, so the TM has no full control over who the 2nd person who gonna die will be.
Glad you are favorable towards it.
Not terrible, but very limited in number of roles that make use of this. It‘d be hard for a Mafia to convince him of giving it to him since that‘d require faking a daykill role. I don‘t see much relevant play with it other than „oh this guy daykilled, time to refill him next night“.
Yeah... I just thought it would be interesting to give Vigilante and PGO or Prosecutor a 2nd shot or maybe also Troublemaker if that role can find its way into the game.
Not sure about this. I generally dislike cointoss-based roles, though this could be another Assassin counter other than BG. Works the same way as BG however, so it only adds a small protection chance at night on top.
And if we'd make the Nurse a not-killing insane Doc role?
As for the day protection, Copy Panda had this idea which I worded like that:
I am actually not sure if maybe Night Action would be better as this way it can be checked and would be harder to claim as hiding role plus then Mafia has a way to block the day protections in case of them not wanting to waste a potential Assassin kill.
I‘m not sure whether we need or want redirecting roles that mess up everything. The post-death clarity is nice though. Maybe testable one day, not into it right now.
Redirects are for me "soft blocks" as the action still happens just not on the intended target. And as you said the post-death clarity might help town if the CG ain't all that outspoken with town to put some light on some questionable results or actions. I changed it that the CG cannot chose which target exactly he redirects the action to, so that it is a bit weaker and less in control. Still more in control than BK who might have redirected an action to anyone in the current alive playerbase.^^
Also I had the idea that maybe the players whos actions got redirected get told that their action had been redirected when receiving their result or just get told that when their action has no shown result. That way the player's action was still "soft blocked" but neither he nor the BK nor CG can say for sure who the actual target of that night was, but the redirected player would know he cannot attache his action result to his intended target anymore.
And if we make her a reverse Spy? An old lady with a cat on her lap who can't sleep at night watching the house of one of her neighbors and noticing people going in and out but due her age and darkness she cannot make out what those people did there, maybe curtains were also put in front, making it harder to see what happened.
Like the Spy's role is to follow somebody who goes to someone doing something, the Old Cat Lady's role would be to observe a house from the start and note who goes in and out but doesn't know what was done there. Would be less OP and a reverse Spy has same problems and advantages like a Spy jsut from another POV, right?
Too overcomplicated for the effect it gives, and giving 1 player too many votes. I‘m sure there‘s more fun roles possible around the concept of voting and lynching than this.
Alright, I hear you and Panda and I agree. In a team or a large group of sameish players a role with a large or low vote amount would crash the game.
But what if we had a Notary who is all on his own and forced to win the Game Solo or Yolo?
I present the Third Party Role - THE GREEDY NOTARY!
This would add a passive 3rd Party role to the game, something we arguably do not have. Except maybe Lovers and that ain't a fair comparison due Lovers being secondary and the two Lovers often having active roles on their own.
This would also add a 3rd Party role based around votes, something we don't have yet either, except maybe the SS and that also isn't quite fair to compare as the SS can't control who the Illusions vote for just that their vote doesn't count anymore because they are dead already.
With either high or low vote value the Notary knows that his goal of a surplus of 5 Townie votes is difficult due Townie wanting to lynch Mafia and Mafia killing Townies at night. So if the Notary wants to win the game, sooner or later he has to use his high or low vote amount to influence the voting in his favor to gain value but at the same time that would trip people into noticing that not the first voted one died. And knowing the Notary role condition they could determinate his current worth and to which vote group he must have belong to to have influenced the voting to go the way he wanted it to.
So the Notary role would be one requiring a cool head, trying to manipulate townies into lynching each others, best without the notary's own support to remain hidden as long as possible, figure out how to hide his vote value in the voting list and ofc be lucky enough to live long enough to see a surplus of 5 Townie votes, thus winning the game by himself, similar to Santa, crushing all parties to the wall with his accumulated wealth!
I think this 3rd role could be a very engaging one and since it is a Solo role, it ain't overpowered as it needs a way to win on its own and has two parties, Townie and Mafia, opposing its win condition due Townie's goal to lynch Mafias, thus reducing his worth, and Mafia's goal to kill Townies at night, thus reducing the chances of getting Townies lynched to increase his worth.
I think it got a difficult win condition similar to Santa but it isn't impossible and I think winning this way could be very satisfying for the 3rd role Holder while also being a challenge for both Town and Mafia as at some point it would get obvious that the lynch result does not match the vote list.
No. Same as some other idea you once had that let a Townie role skip the lynch. Just that it‘s a lot worse as a mafia role. Lynching is the core of this game, James.
But the idea of a Mafia Version of Innocent Child is not uninteresting, right? Like if blocking Lynching is too strong what about a Mafia IC who basically gains its true power only when it lives long enough to see the day it gets revealed, like becoming a powerful bomb whereas if killed or lynched before that date reveal he would basically be a Mafia no-role with no killing power, similar to Mafia Pirate who also couldn't kill?
Mason‘s main strength are (supposedly) being confirmed and organized group within Town that are Town. So unless your host is Hardy Masons should be dangerous enough without this.
Okay but could we at least give the Mason group as a whole an Action? Similar to the Night kill of Mafia being a "team kill" that can be used by anyone in the group which is why the Mafia argue on who to use the action on and who should use it. Something similar could be done for Mason as well. Not killing ofc. XD
Maybe something in regards to MR, like checking if someone is safe to recruit or not. It would be a Det version but one that would not care about Millers, Death Millers and other roles meant to trick dets and question their sanity. That way the MR might not want to recruit in Night 1 and first wait what his Masons found out about the to be recruited target.
This will be discussed separately soonish I‘m sure and we‘ll come to an agreement. So far I think both me and @Vandred understand your point with Assassin and I wouldn‘t mind it being changed or clarified.
Stealing from other Mafias huh.. I suppose it‘s not terrible with how multiple-mafia games are becoming a thing. Poor Town Pirate is still in the gutter though.
It has been quite some time since we last had a one-mafia only game. Or if we had one recently I wasn't part of it.
Dunno how to make Town Pirate stronger. Maybe have him just become a copy of whoever he steals a role from? Basically a fast-track Apprentice then.
I dislike it, imo the Lovers are good enough to not need this. The utility of knowing both teams(hopefully used in a 1-mafia game..) + their primary roles should be all they need. Threesome too.
What about the risks of dying at night though. Lovers are all about the possible suicide. In a day phase they can try to talk their way out but in a nightphase if not one of them is a doc they have only luck to survive especially if there are 2 Mafias, meaning they cannot control what is happening in one of them. I think a passive Vow between the Lovers so that each night they can decide which one of them receives the "Love overcomes all" crap to basically have a sane doc protection. It would not fully delete the possibility of dying at night but it would make one of them safer that night to see the next day.
Interesting enough for me. Is it put on Townies only? Depending on the primary role you give him his killing every 2 nights is either prevented or very mean with it being a Doctor lol.
Yeah, it is Townie only. Actually after reading it and Panda's critic, maybe it is a bit too strange?
What if we'd make it a Townie role instead of a 3rd role?
By making him a full-fledged Townie he can be recruited by Mentor thus eliminating an unknown threat by luck.
Also due being Town the Werewolf has the problem that at the start of the game he would have hinted/claimed a different role he might have gained later in-game due being killed. Due counting as non-Townie if investigated Townies will trust the WW less. Due having a night kill action Townies will rather believe that he is TP or another Mafia if he starts killing Mafia suspects to "prove himself". Also due his every 2nd night action changed into kill results he might have already killed some townies, so they might see him rather as a loose cannon and risk for town than a boon.
The idea is to have an active Townie role that can kill at night but being untrustworthy due not having a clue that he was the Werewolf as there are many reasons why his target could have died that night. And when he changed into Werewolf he can't just come out and say he had the secondary WW role from the start because then he just gets accused of being Mafia/TP plus even if Townie believes him, there is the risk that Mafia might just kill him to prevent him from killing them. And if they don't do that then there is the risk if WW has many suspects of accidentally killing a townie, further making him less worthy of trust and more suspect.
I think as a Town role this secondary role could add more to the game than as a furry SK because to change into Werewolf the holder of that secondary role would have to be killed which might never happened, so he could win the game with his primary town role while having killed 2-3 people by accident at night.^^
A Bodyguard Bomb with suicidal tendencies as the Samurai might kill himself if his protege died despite his protection due block, strongman, poison, etc. A normal BG would live if blocked though he would have the trouble to explain why he is still alive and his target isn't despite his protection.
Nice, I hoped you would say that! Hope some other Hosts also give it their approvals. We could need some more Mafia or 3rd roles with some moderate impact to the gameplay.
Theforgemaster(3rd party): Each night the forgemaster can raise a dead player to become part of his army. (It can be any dead player, mafia, town, or another 3rd, lynched or killed), once the number of his army is bigger than the number of players from other factions, he wins.(Ex. 5 players - 3 town, 2 mafias +him and his 5 person army, then he wins). The dead players that joined his army can no longer be targeted by mortician, because they are not dead anymore. His undead army dies with him.
-he can be blocked by any role
-If he becomes an illusion, he cannot revive any player, he just thinks he did
-Maybe he can receive a count of players in his army, but not sure if confirming his success on the action would be good. This is just a comment.
- when he dies, all the undead can be targeted by mortician again, including him
alternative version:
Theforgemaster(3rd party): Each night the forgemaster can raise a dead player to become part of his army. Each 2 nights (on even numbered nights) if the forgemaster is targeted by a spy/det, or any investigative roles, the player that investigated him gets a resukt of affiliation/action performed by one of the dead players In his army ( ex.: the det gets the affiliation of a random townie/mafia the forgemaster revived, a spy would get a target one of his dead players had or no result). When the number of his army is bigger than the number of players from other factions, he wins.The dead players that joined his army can no longer be targeted by mortician.
I had this idea, would like to know if its a playable role or not good at all. It is similar to Santa and shapeshifter, but he doesn’t really kill like some other 3rd parties.
Ah, Dracula and their forgemasters!
So basically the Undead become unknowingly supporters of the forgemaster's victory similar to SS with its Illusions. What do you mean "can be blocked by any role", like any action used on him interrupts his Undead rising action?
Ah, Dracula and their forgemasters!
So basically the Undead become unknowingly supporters of the forgemaster's victory similar to SS with its Illusions. What do you mean "can be blocked by any role", like any action used on him interrupts his Undead rising action?
