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Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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He randomly encountered Oden.
He got the Wano Poneglyph from Oden and the Zou Poneglyph from Inu and Neko without having to lift a finger.
The Fishman Island Road Poneglyph was not hidden.
He randomly encountered Oden.
He got the Wano Poneglyph from Oden and the Zou Poneglyph from Inu and Neko without having to lift a finger.
The Fishman Island Road Poneglyph was not hidden.
Actually...
If he were weak he wouldn't have been able to avoid Sengoku, Garp, Xebec, WB etc ending him before he could even meet Oden. His journey was successful also because he was actually strong enough to make it. He wouldn't have survived by luck only. To be PK one needs to find Raftel but one can only do that if they're strong enough to fight and/or defeat Admirals and Emperors as the strongest pirate. WB wasn't PK though he was as strong as Roger however Roger wouldn't have been PK if he hadn't had the power necessary to make the journey to Raftel in the first place. It comes along with the title, power. That's why Luffy said he can't be PK if he can't beat the admirals and Emperors and that's why the PK's strength is hyped (WB was hyped for being able to equal the PK; Big Mom even thought that with her becoming stronger with Elbaf's army that she'd be PK through crushing the other Emperors) so power is part of the title even if it isn't outright stated like finding Raftel.
Raftel isn't some place that anyone can just happen to find or find because they have reality bending levels of luck. It's a reach to somehow diminish Roger and go into what ifs about something that can never and will never happen i.e. a weakling being PK by finding Raftel.
If a pirate is not the strongest then his competitors would defeat him before becoming the PK. That's why I find the whole 'oh this fodder can be PK if he finds Raftel by chance so the PK doesn't involve power level' argument really immature, ignorant and contrived. We all know no one can be the PK if they can't fight an emperor or admiral and win or at least draw and defeat and escape all obstacles and those who oppose them on their journey in the new world.
But you can't really argue otherwise given manga has actually stated that, and it has implied that Roger did not fight Big Mom for her Poneglyph. You can claim it's immature and ignorant because you don't like it, but it's a fact. Luffy can be weaker than Katakuri and still become the Pirate King without having to fight anyone as long as he's good at escaping, avoiding, or running away.
But anyway, let's see if Roger fought anyone on his way to Raftel. I mean, for all we know, there could have been different enemies en route or at destination that does require being strong.
There are a few characters who I do not want to rank solely because there is not enough information on where to rank them specifically.
Kong, Dragon, BB' level 6 inmates crew to include Shiryu, Gorosei, etc.
Kong was the Fleet Admiral in Roger's Era, he was in charge of Sengoku, Zephyr, and Garp. All who are Top tier. But we know thanks to Garp that being an admiral rank does not mean youre stronger than your subordinates. I will put Kong (if his strenght has gone down) at least admiral level. But I have no facts to back this up.
I know you didn't ask about Dragon, but honestly I don't want to rank him until we see some action from him. I think he is only the most wanted man because he is directly trying to overthrow the WG, where as Kaido and BM don't care about that.But I don't think he is stronger than Kaido or Big Mom. So I'll put Dragon on Admiral level. Sabo was able to fight Fujitora but I don't think Sabo would win and Fujitora is not Aokiji or Kizaru level.
Also, I don't like the fact that Oda made the Revolutionaries look weak by losing/running away from Blackbeard's crew.
But you can't really argue otherwise given manga has actually stated that, and it has implied that Roger did not fight Big Mom for her Poneglyph. You can claim it's immature and ignorant because you don't like it, but it's a fact. Luffy can be weaker than Katakuri and still become the Pirate King without having to fight anyone as long as he's good at escaping, avoiding, or running away.
But anyway, let's see if Roger fought anyone on his way to Raftel. I mean, for all we know, there could have been different enemies en route or at destination that does require being strong.
Roger fought WB, Shiki, Garp and Sengoku (ignoring him fighting WB, Xebec, Kaido and Big Mom before with Garp) on his journey and did not lose. He doesn't have to fight a specific person on the exact path to Raftel for us to understand that he needs to be strong to reach there. The enemies are plenty all over the grand line.
Had Roger lost to WB, Garp or Sengoku at any point he would not have been pirate king. Luffy is now encountering Emperors and will meet admirals and even for Luffy he cannot possibly escape every single high ranking enemy be it admiral or emperor. No one can possibly think that it's possible for a low leveled pirate to magically escape every single emperor and admiral and their forces, find every single poneglyph and find raftel without being strong in the new world.
It's funny how you brought in Katakuri when Luffy literally had to get stronger and beat him in a fight to get out of that predicament so really if he was or stays weaker than Katakuri from what we see so far he definitely wouldn't be PK. We are witnessing Luffy's growth in power as he gets closer and closer to the title of PK and raftel.
And it is contrived when Luffy himself said he can't become the PK unless he defeats the admirals and emperors. Taking it a step further he even said he can't be PK if he can't protect his friends (from people like Kuma who completely defeated them). That's the point of his training i.e. to make it in the new world he had to get stronger. Strength and becoming the PK go hand in hand. And you and I both know that Roger was capable of beating Big Mom so I don't see what the point actually is. Whether he fooled her or not, that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he was strong enough to 1) pull it off 2) defeat people on her level or greater. There is no way in the story to become PK without power playing a role. This ' oh well they didn't specifically state that you need to be strong to find Raftel so it means it isn't needed' argument is really so pointless and far fetched. As if it would or could ever happen in the first place.
But anyway people can hold on to this notion all they want, it's no greater than saying that it's possible right now for Zoro to become WSS if all the other swordsmen die. It's never happened for anyone before and it isn't going to happen for Zoro even if it is possible.
And yeah we'll see if Luffy meets someone en route which would just make it even more clear that the PK needs to be Emperor leveled.
Roger fought WB, Shiki, Garp and Sengoku (ignoring him fighting WB, Xebec, Kaido and Big Mom before with Garp) on his journey and did not lose. He doesn't have to fight a specific person on the exact path to Raftel for us to understand that he needs to be strong to reach there. The enemies are plenty all over the grand line.
Had Roger lost to WB, Garp or Sengoku at any point he would not have been pirate king. Luffy is now encountering Emperors and will meet admirals and even for Luffy he cannot possibly escape every single high ranking enemy be it admiral or emperor. No one can possibly think that it's possible for a low leveled pirate to magically escape every single emperor and admiral and their forces, find every single poneglyph and find raftel without being strong in the new world.
It's funny how you brought in Katakuri when Luffy literally had to get stronger and beat him in a fight to get out of that predicament so really if he was or stays weaker than Katakuri from what we see so far he definitely wouldn't be PK. We are witnessing Luffy's growth in power as he gets closer and closer to the title of PK and raftel.
And it is contrived when Luffy himself said he can't become the PK unless he defeats the admirals and emperors. Taking it a step further he even said he can't be PK if he can't protect his friends (from people like Kuma who completely defeated them). That's the point of his training i.e. to make it in the new world he had to get stronger. Strength and becoming the PK go hand in hand. And you and I both know that Roger was capable of beating Big Mom so I don't see what the point actually is. Whether he fooled her or not, that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he was strong enough to 1) pull it off 2) defeat people on her level or greater. There is no way in the story to become PK without power playing a role. This ' oh well they didn't specifically state that you need to be strong to find Raftel so it means it isn't needed' argument is really so pointless and far fetched. As if it would or could ever happen in the first place.
But anyway people can hold on to this notion all they want, it's no greater than saying that it's possible right now for Zoro to become WSS if all the other swordsmen die. It's never happened for anyone before and it isn't going to happen for Zoro even if it is possible.
And yeah we'll see if Luffy meets someone en route which would just make it even more clear that the PK needs to be Emperor leveled.
We also saw him wanting to fight the others, and he was able to survive Garp multiple times. It doesn't change that the characters are right in that they don't need to fight the Emperors.
Yes, Roger would still have become a Pirate King as he's the only one to get to Raftel and make it back. If it was about fighting/strength, then Whitebaerd would have inherited the title. If it was about fighting and winning, then Luffy would at least try to argue with Usopp, not accept what Usopp says. Luffy isn't encountering Emperors though, he's willingly going to them for personal reasons, like rescuing Sanji or freeing his friend's country.
Katakuri is an example due to his Future Sight. But if you want to bring that up, Luffy chose to fight Katakuri and go back and fight him when he could have avoided fighting Katakuri again after he initially ran and hid. Even if Luffy was weaker than Katakuri, he'd still become the Pirate King just by getting to Raftel. You're acting as if though Luffy didn't choose to fight Big Mom, Kaidou, and Katakuri and isn't eager to fight Shanks rather than fighting any of them out of necessity. Same with Roger, he looked like he wanted to fight Whitebeard, and both seemed to have fun doing it as friends.
So why wouldn't Luffy tell Usopp that? Why did the manga imply that Roger never beat Big Mom, but he got to her Poneglyph and escaped? We see Luffy eager to fight all the time, so of course he has to get stronger, and of course he wants to take on the Emperors or be strong enough to do so. Again, not a requirement.
I'm not going to claim Roger was capable of beating Big Mom without proof. This manga is usually full of hypes anyway. So far, nothing really proves that to be the Pirate King, you need to have strength.
All the marines vs all of the yonko crews at once? Yonko. Too many heavy hitters.
Captains only, I say...damn, this one is tough! BB, Kaido, BM, Shanks is a brutal lineup, they have good AoE attacks and good hand to hand....but that's a lot of marines...I'll say Marines just for numbers alone.
We also saw him wanting to fight the others, and he was able to survive Garp multiple times. It doesn't change that the characters are right in that they don't need to fight the Emperors.
Yes, Roger would still have become a Pirate King as he's the only one to get to Raftel and make it back. If it was about fighting/strength, then Whitebaerd would have inherited the title. If it was about fighting and winning, then Luffy would at least try to argue with Usopp, not accept what Usopp says. Luffy isn't encountering Emperors though, he's willingly going to them for personal reasons, like rescuing Sanji or freeing his friend's country.
Katakuri is an example due to his Future Sight. But if you want to bring that up, Luffy chose to fight Katakuri and go back and fight him when he could have avoided fighting Katakuri again after he initially ran and hid. Even if Luffy was weaker than Katakuri, he'd still become the Pirate King just by getting to Raftel. You're acting as if though Luffy didn't choose to fight Big Mom, Kaidou, and Katakuri and isn't eager to fight Shanks rather than fighting any of them out of necessity. Same with Roger, he looked like he wanted to fight Whitebeard, and both seemed to have fun doing it as friends.
So why wouldn't Luffy tell Usopp that? Why did the manga imply that Roger never beat Big Mom, but he got to her Poneglyph and escaped? We see Luffy eager to fight all the time, so of course he has to get stronger, and of course he wants to take on the Emperors or be strong enough to do so. Again, not a requirement.
I'm not going to claim Roger was capable of beating Big Mom without proof. This manga is usually full of hypes anyway. So far, nothing really proves that to be the Pirate King, you need to have strength.
We also saw him wanting to fight the others, and he was able to survive Garp multiple times. It doesn't change that the characters are right in that they don't need to fight the Emperors.
How was he able to survive Garp? Because he was strong enough to do so. So your headcanon is that Garp never cornered him but Roger kept stalking Garp hence they fought and that could have been avoided. In the new world strength is needed and whether you all want to accept it or not the closer one gets to reaching Raftel the more obstacles and powerful enemies arise. One could even argue that he was only able to even get Big Mom's poneglyph because he was powerful and skilled enough to do whatever he did. A character like Usopp for example wouldn't be able to do it and from what we know Roger didn't have all the help and lucky plot developments Luffy had. Notice Big Mom never pursued him like she did Luffy who is weaker than her. That's telling. The fact that he could go into her territory and not be detected or get away means he's comfortable with his own strength. A random weakling couldn't do that unscathed. Even Luffy couldn't given that she's not after him.
Yes, Roger would still have become a Pirate King as he's the only one to get to Raftel and make it back. If it was about fighting/strength, then Whitebaerd would have inherited the title. If it was about fighting and winning, then Luffy would at least try to argue with Usopp, not accept what Usopp says. Luffy isn't encountering Emperors though, he's willingly going to them for personal reasons, like rescuing Sanji or freeing his friend's country.
He could only get be able to even make the journey to Raftel if he was strong enough to do so. He would have been stopped by Sengoku and Garp in addition to other pirates like Big Mom and WB had he been weaker than he was. You're telling me Roger could have never ever met any strong pirate if he was really weak if he wanted? I don't know why you all act like the new world is a paradise. I never said being the pirate king is ONLY about power, I said it was an attribute and a requirement. If you read what I said correctly you'd actually see that I said it wasn't power alone hence WB not being pirate king so idk what your point actually is lol.
Luffy said he needed to beat the emperors and admirals to be PK. Chinjao's reaction to Luffy saying he's going to be pirate king is questioning if he's thinks he can handle the emperors and admirals so whether you want to accept it or not Oda makes a clear association with power and finding raftel and OP. Idk why people think they can make up some impossible scenario where Luffy or Roger could be Usopp leveled for example and never encounter an emperor leveled enemy. So it is clear that being powerful is a requirement for being able to find Raftel because at some point powerful enemies will follow. At some point some Navy soldier would meet you and confront you.
Katakuri is an example due to his Future Sight. But if you want to bring that up, Luffy chose to fight Katakuri and go back and fight him when he could have avoided fighting Katakuri again after he initially ran and hid. Even if Luffy was weaker than Katakuri, he'd still become the Pirate King just by getting to Raftel. You're acting as if though Luffy didn't choose to fight Big Mom, Kaidou, and Katakuri and isn't eager to fight Shanks rather than fighting any of them out of necessity. Same with Roger, he looked like he wanted to fight Whitebeard, and both seemed to have fun doing it as friends.
So Luffy could be pirate king if he just let Sanji get killed by an emperor and just focus on the poneglyph. He'd lose one of his top fighters and nakama but oh yeah I forget fighting and power isn't important... He could ideally sneak into WCI, get the rubbing, sneak into Onigashima, get the rubbing, sneak into the Whale Tree, get the rubbing, and then sneak into wherever the 4th is and then stealthily sail to the location without ever meeting anyone who is strong or stronger than a version of him that never had to fight anyone because he could be that good at sneaking and that lucky. And then he'd find Raftel and be PK and tell people and people would be like "Who are you?" It's okay if he let Sanji die, he found Raftel so he can celebrate.
So why wouldn't Luffy tell Usopp that? Why did the manga imply that Roger never beat Big Mom, but he got to her Poneglyph and escaped? We see Luffy eager to fight all the time, so of course he has to get stronger, and of course he wants to take on the Emperors or be strong enough to do so. Again, not a requirement.
I'm not going to claim Roger was capable of beating Big Mom without proof. This manga is usually full of hypes anyway. So far, nothing really proves that to be the Pirate King, you need to have strength.
If we're going to talk the manga why has no one ever tried or mentioned that hey we can do nothing and sneak and avoid everyone and find Raftel? I mean Luffy didn't listen to Usopp when he wanted to just get all the info from Rayleigh so it's not like the story hasn't made it clear what the pirate king has to be. It's not only about finding Raftel as the journey to do so in itself matters and odds are no one would even acknowledge anyone as PK if they're weak, abandoned their friends, never fought or met anyone strong, and just said they found Raftel. But that's another discussion.
The only way Roger wouldn't be able to beat Big Mom is if he was weaker than her and given that he drew with prime WB and Garp you actually would be reaching with a headcanon to say anything other than Roger can. Even if they were equals he'd still be able to pull off a win.
And again, Luffy, Chinjao and common sense, since this is a manga about pirates killing one another and the marines killing them, make it clear that one needs power to reach Raftel otherwise they'd be taken out before they can do so. Luffy would be a sailor not a pirate if he just never does anything to garner attention.
This is all I'm saying on the matter. Bottom line Roger was the strongest pirate and Luffy will be the strongest pirate and face the strongest enemies to reach Raftel. Whatever headcanons people have about someone managing to find Raftel without ever having to fight strong people are just that, headcanons.
Exactly. In order to be the most free one would need power. In order to protect those dear to him which he says is something he needs to do if he wants to be PK, he has to be strong. In order to beat the emperors and admirals, which he says is needed to be PK, he needs to be powerful. Pirate King and finding Raftel comes with other requirements and issues that one needs power to deal with. Even finding Raftel requires power because of how dangerous the new world is and due to all the enemies around.
So just Yonko captains? Marines. Too many numbers and have heavy hitters. Especially if they have the schibukai.
RD 2 is a stomp for the Yonko. I believe Kaido by himself can replicate something close to WB or even better since he's healthy and is a dragon. BM and BB could to. Don't think Shanks could. Nonetheless, Yonko stomp.
Christ, introducing "headcanon" to this forum was a horrible idea, whoever did it. Either way, proven that Pirate King does not require beating the Emperors or the Marines, as far as we know, it just requires getting to Raftel. There's a reason why there was only one person who became the Pirate King, and only after reaching Raftel, and why the World's Strongest Man was never considered the Pirate King after Roger died.
At best, you can argue that strength is needed if the pirate chooses to fight opponents.
Luffy says he needs to beat Admirals and Emperors to be PK and the strongest man took on the PK and couldn't beat him because he was as strong as him so people can keep their headcanons about a pirate king being weaker than everyone else and never having to fight anyone because he gets magically teleported to Raftel. Lol. There's a difference between being the strongest automatically making you PK and being the strongest allowing you to accomplish becoming PK. No one argues that the strongest pirate is automatically the PK however no one should argue that the PK title has nothing to do with strength when characters have argued otherwise.
Luffy says he needs to beat Admirals and Emperors to be PK and the strongest man took on the PK and couldn't beat him because he was as strong as him so people can keep their headcanons about a pirate king being weaker than everyone else and never having to fight anyone because he gets magically teleported to Raftel. Lol. There's a difference between being the strongest automatically making you PK and being the strongest allowing you to accomplish becoming PK. No one argues that the strongest pirate is automatically the PK however no one should argue that the PK title has nothing to do with strength when characters have argued otherwise.
The PK title is not a strength title, it has been explained several times, it is navigational achievement.
Yes, Roger fought Whitebeard. Was that necessary achievement for becoming a PK? Absolutely not.
Was even a single fight a necessary task for him to become PK? Again, absolutely not.
If people still want to use PK as PL title then it scales to the title holder and doesnt represent the same strength.
Luffy wont be as strong as Roger, he doesnt use a bladed weapon, his lethality is miles below Roger's.
So, when referring to PK as PL title, people should specify which PK they mean, Roger or Luffy, because they are 2 different PLs.
Luffy says he needs to beat Admirals and Emperors to be PK and the strongest man took on the PK and couldn't beat him because he was as strong as him so people can keep their headcanons about a pirate king being weaker than everyone else and never having to fight anyone because he gets magically teleported to Raftel. Lol. There's a difference between being the strongest automatically making you PK and being the strongest allowing you to accomplish becoming PK. No one argues that the strongest pirate is automatically the PK however no one should argue that the PK title has nothing to do with strength when characters have argued otherwise.
Learn what a head canon is. You haven't proven me wrong. Yeah, Luffy said that because he wants to fight people, but again, if he really thought fighting was necessary, then he'd argue with Usopp, not look annoyed at Usopp telling him he doesn't need to take on the Emperors.
Still an assumption that you have to be the strongest. Roger didn't set to become the Pirate King or go to Raftel until 20, 30 years after he started his journey. Between that time, he fought other pirates for the fun of it or because they attacked him or pissed him off. He didn't choose to fight anyone for the title.
The PK title is not a strength title, it has been explained several times, it is navigational achievement.
Yes, Roger fought Whitebeard. Was that necessary achievement for becoming a PK? Absolutely not.
Was even a single fight a necessary task for him to become PK? Again, absolutely not.
If people still want to use PK as PL title then it scales to the title holder and doesnt represent the same strength.
Luffy wont be as strong as Roger, he doesnt use a bladed weapon, his lethality is miles below Roger's.
So, when referring to PK as PL title, people should specify which PK they mean, Roger or Luffy, because they are 2 different PLs.
It is a necessary achievement to become PK because if he wasn't the strongest he would have been defeated by admirals and rival pirates like WB, Garp, Sengoku etc. Surviving in the new world alone requires power and continuing on to find poneglyphs, steal them etc. also requires power. What you all are not understanding is that in order to even be able to reach Raftel power is needed to handle what the new world brings. It's not something that can be accomplished without strength. That's why Luffy said he needed to beat emperors and admirals before be becomes PK. That is why he trains. Roger was the strongest (with WB) and Luffy will be the strongest also. I have no idea how something so simple is so hard to get.
Roger was the strongest pirate and on par with WB. Hence PK level is a level of power since it's synonymous with Roger's power level. And that is how I use it. If you have an issue then that's your issue because thus far there has only been one pirate king he was the strongest pirate.
Luffy wont be as strong as Roger, he doesnt use a bladed weapon, his lethality is miles below Roger's.
So, when referring to PK as PL title, people should specify which PK they mean, Roger or Luffy, because they are 2 different PLs.
Lol. Can you give the sword crap a rest? Luffy is not the pirate king yet and common sense dictates that he'd be at least be on Roger and WB's level if not greater. Sorry it messes with your Zoro surpassing Mihawk thing being the zenith of power in OP. If you say stuff like this I really don't see any reason to even attempt to continue this. Have fun with the swords.
Lol. Can you give the sword crap a rest? Luffy is not the pirate king yet and common sense dictates that he'd be at least be on Roger and WB's level if not greater. Sorry it messes with your Zoro surpassing Mihawk thing being the zenith of power in OP. If you say stuff like this I really don't see any reason to even attempt to continue this. Have fun with the swords.
What sword crap? It is a manga fact that Luffy needs hundreds of hits to take his opponents out while swordsmen do it in one clean slash.
How can you put a sign of the equation between those? You are either taking a dump on Roger or hyping up Luffy without anything to back it up...
I am not worried about Zoro, he will be the nr1 in the universe at EoS, I am worried about Luffy. He can only compete if he becomes a god or something so I guess you should put all your cards on CoC being some broken shit to compensate for Luffy's other weaknesses.
Learn what a head canon is. You haven't proven me wrong. Yeah, Luffy said that because he wants to fight people, but again, if he really thought fighting was necessary, then he'd argue with Usopp, not look annoyed at Usopp telling him he doesn't need to take on the Emperors.
Still an assumption that you have to be the strongest. Roger didn't set to become the Pirate King or go to Raftel until 20, 30 years after he started his journey. Between that time, he fought other pirates for the fun of it or because they attacked him or pissed him off. He didn't choose to fight anyone for the title.
You admit that Roger fought people who attacked him but then say the title has nothing to do with power? No one said he had to actually fight someone over the title of PK. However common sense again, to deal with the Garps and WBs of the world he had to be on their level at least hence the PK needing strength to conquer the grand line and reach Raftel. If he was weaker than those people who he clashed with he would have died before becoming PK. Luffy's statement shows what is needed. The admirals and yonko are what stand in the way hence one needing power to handle them to reach Raftel.
You keep harping on Usopp even though Luffy, Chinjao and Rayleigh have associated power with the title. Conquering the sea, being able to reach Raftel, being the most free, handling all the top rivals, are what makes one the PK and only someone powerful enough to do so can do so.
So there will never be a fodder pirate king because it's not just about navigation. Even then, sailing in the new world alone requires strength. In fact the reason WB was even considered the closest to the throne and title of PK is because he was the only pirate known to clash equally with Roger i.e. power is part of the equation since no one knew what Roger did or didn't tell him.
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