Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Most of what's needed to be said about this Zoro power level and limits has been said, I've just gone back a week's worth of posts and it's literally the same things being repeated. A lot of what has been mentioned in terms of the character and his limit is speculative until we see him pushed in this arc(hopefully), so we can re-evaluate these points afer the fact.
I will be deleting any of the same arguments unless you can provide manga/databook evidence to continue this, so the onus is on you.

There's been too many snide, troll and passive aggressive posts recently. I don't care if you agree with each other or not. If you can't defend your arguments or have nothing constructive to add, then re-evaluate its necessity. I definitely don't want to see any bashing; of character or users.

Also, any discussions not relating to power level will be treated as off-topic, so please take those the correct threads( spoiler: there are pages of threads) or make one. I'll pin this to the top of the page.

If you disagree with anything, PM me or you know...use the report function to save yourself being involved. ~ goldb
 

jaymizzo

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Ugh, this discussion is still going?

Are swords superior to fists? In the real world they are. But you know what is even better? Guns. That's why swords stopped being used.

But swordmen are not superior to hand-to-hand fighters in One Piece world. Garp may have been on par with Roger and Whitebeard on his prime, and he only used his fists.
Its been a point thats been stressed for ages, this is just the usual cycle in the Zoro debate.

Garp and Roger being equal is Oda not representing it right. I remember reading someone saying exactly that, that mangaka are not doing swords justice in the manga. Because flying slashes are a thing.
 

Shasha23

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Where are these parallels between Luffy and WB and Garp? As far as I remember it was a gag on them falling asleep, Luffy being a troublemaker like Garp (or something to that effect by Sengoku/something about something being wrong with Garps family). Not once do I recall anyone saying Luffy reminds them of WB or Garp. Its been consistently Roger. Be it Luffy raising hell because of one crew member (like Roger did), Luffy proclaiming he is going to be PK and truly believe it (like Roger), same dream (freest man) etc.

Please, where are these comparisons to Garp and WB in the manga? We can make those connections as fans but I stated in the manga. I mean Shanks gave Luffy Rogers hat for the lols.
The WG comments on how Luffy's action make sense since he is like Garp,they both dont care if someone is on the right or wrong side of justice as long as they are good people they trust them, same love for food and even Aokiji comments on how much similar Luffy is to Garp.
As for WB and Luffy they both seem to care about people they meet and go around protecting nations from evil, even though Luffy doesn't like it he does have people sailing under him who call themselves his "sons" and like Whitebeard he doesn't care all that much about money but would rather give away money to those who need it.

The only time people think Luffy is similar to Roger is because of being Pirate King thing or being a D. nothing else, there has never been one time in the story where someone said ohh Luffy is similar to Roger because of 1,2,3 but it has always been about them wanting to be Pirate King. The only person who has been compared to Roger was Ace because of their short temper and nature to be emo and look for fights.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

This is not the first time I read the manga has shown Roger as a "bad guy that does pirate things" yet I don't remember a single time the manga has actually shown him as any different to Luffy. Quite the contrary, every person we see that remembers Roger is fond of him. Even Crocus remembers Roger right after meeting Luffy.
The only times where we are shown Roger's past on panels is him being bloodlusted and looking to beat up people, other than that its all credible character statements from Garp and Roger's victims, and from that nothing about Roger is similar to Luffy, even people who compare them its because of their goal and them being a D. that they find similar not them having the same character as people, many people have been shown to say Luffy is so much like Garp.
Crocus was remembering Roger because of what Luffy said about being Pirate King not about Luffy;s character being the same as Roger's.
 

Moegara

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The WG comments on how Luffy's action make sense since he is like Garp,they both dont care if someone is on the right or wrong side of justice as long as they are good people they trust them, same love for food and even Aokiji comments on how much similar Luffy is to Garp.
As for WB and Luffy they both seem to care about people they meet and go around protecting nations from evil, even though Luffy doesn't like it he does have people sailing under him who call themselves his "sons" and like Whitebeard he doesn't care all that much about money but would rather give away money to those who need it.

The only time people think Luffy is similar to Roger is because of being Pirate King thing or being a D. nothing else, there has never been one time in the story where someone said ohh Luffy is similar to Roger because of 1,2,3 but it has always been about them wanting to be Pirate King. The only person who has been compared to Roger was Ace because of their short temper and nature to be emo and look for fights.
I could look for times Luffy's been pointed out as similar to Roger, or look for flashbacks in which we actually see him being similar (like when he recruited Rayleigh. That scene had the same exact vibe about Roger that Luffy had when he first met Zoro), but since you're the one claiming Roger's been mentioned as being "an actual bad guy selfish pirate that doesn't mind doing evil things and has nothing to do with how Luffy is" I would really like it if you could please mention when has anything of the sort been said. Has anyone other than biased characters like Akainu, who is actually a villain, actually said anything like that on the manga?

I would also like to remind you that Luffy made a speech on Fishman Island about how "he isn't a hero and people shouldn't expect him to be one. He's a pirate and he just does what he wants to do". Going by his own words and how you defined Roger, you should see a relation. They do what they want to. They're free. They just happen to be good guys.
 

Shasha23

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Right, who has Luffy met who met Roger?

Kureha - remembers Roger fondly and is reminded of him when she sees Luffy
Gan Fall - remembers Roger fondly, reminded of Luffy.
Neptune - shown to be a good friend of Roger

What in any of these portrayals makes Roger seem like a "bad guy" to anyone? He was exactly like Luffy, that's not just been hinted at, we've been bashed over the head with it.
Again as i explained

Kureha - because of them being D.
Gan Fall - because of them being D.
Neptune - shown to be best buddies with Whitebeard, his son shown to be good friends with Luffy the same arc.

Do you remember what Garp said about Roger? Roger was indeed a bad guy, he was a pirate that would ransack a nation and go out to look for fights just because he was bored, that is nothing like Luffy
 

Moegara

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The only times where we are shown Roger's past on panels is him being bloodlusted and looking to beat up people, other than that its all credible character statements from Garp and Roger's victims, and from that nothing about Roger is similar to Luffy, even people who compare them its because of their goal and them being a D. that they find similar not them having the same character as people, many people have been shown to say Luffy is so much like Garp.
Crocus was remembering Roger because of what Luffy said about being Pirate King not about Luffy;s character being the same as Roger's.
"Roger's always bloodlusted on flashbacks".
Let's see what flashbacks I remember:

- Roger fighting WB and Oden and then he just starts drinking and partying with "his enemies", befriending all of them and killing none.

- Roger drinking sake and laughing with WB after being to Raftel. Just like friends.

- Roger being executed with a big smile on his face.

- Roger meeting Rayleigh for the first time with a huge smile and talking about going on an adventure.

- Roger about to fight Shiki with a huge happy smile on his face.

- Roger saying his goodbyes to Rayleigh in a bar before surrendering to the marines. He peacefully says his goodbyes to his friend. Again, with a smile.

- Roger asking Garp, a marine viceadmiral that tried to catch him and fought him throughout all of his carreer, to take care of his son. Garp accepts and there's not a single bad word or gesture between them, despite Garp despising Roger's carreer (just like Smoker dislike's Luffy's despite both Smoker and Luffy being good guys).

And then we have every single character who personally met him is fond of him, and his hat being fondly kept by Shanks and then passed on as a personal symbol to Luffy.

Am I missing any scene? Where's this neverending bloodlust or any proof of Roger being some bad guy?
 

Shasha23

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I could look for times Luffy's been pointed out as similar to Roger, or look for flashbacks in which we actually see him being similar (like when he recruited Rayleigh. That scene had the same exact vibe about Roger that Luffy had when he first met Zoro), but since you're the one claiming Roger's been mentioned as being "an actual bad guy selfish pirate that doesn't mind doing evil things and has nothing to do with how Luffy is" I would really like it if you could please mention when has anything of the sort been said. Has anyone other than biased characters like Akainu, who is actually a villain, actually said anything like that on the manga?

I would also like to remind you that Luffy made a speech on Fishman Island about how "he isn't a hero and people shouldn't expect him to be one. He's a pirate and he just does what he wants to do". Going by his own words and how you defined Roger, you should see a relation. They do what they want to. They're free. They just happen to be good guys.
please do since i cant remember once except for the D and Pirate King connection.

Garp stated Roger would destroy kingdoms and he once destroyed and entire army of a kingdom because some soldiers said something bad about one of his nakama!

When he made that speech and protected Fishman Island the merfolk thought to themselves that what he is doing is so much like Whitebeard.
Luffy does what he wants when he wants and always does what he thinks is right just as Garp does, a connection the WG sees as the same.
 

Moegara

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please do since i cant remember once except for the D and Pirate King connection.

Garp stated Roger would destroy kingdoms and he once destroyed and entire army of a kingdom because some soldiers said something bad about one of his nakama!

When he made that speech and protected Fishman Island the merfolk thought to themselves that what he is doing is so much like Whitebeard.
Luffy does what he wants when he wants and always does what he thinks is right just as Garp does, a connection the WG sees as the same.
I have never said Luffy isn't similar to Garp and WB. That doesn't contradict Luffy's ALSO similar to Roger.

Roger's and Garp's relationship is just like Smoker's and Luffy's. He has also encountered and fought him like four different times already and they're all good guys.

Luffy would destroy Germa 66 for Sanji if he needed to: does that make Luffy a bad guy? Of course not. You can only quote Garp, a marine, making a single line with no context about Roger being violent to protect a nakama (just like Luffy and Shanks do), and ignore every single flashback and other character's opinions about Roger, all of which show him as very similar to Luffy, and even then Garp's statement still shows them as similar.
 

Shasha23

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"Roger's always bloodlusted on flashbacks".
Let's see what flashbacks I remember:

- Roger fighting WB and Oden and then he just starts drinking and partying with "his enemies", befriending all of them and killing none.

- Roger drinking sake and laughing with WB after being to Raftel. Just like friends.

- Roger being executed with a big smile on his face.

- Roger meeting Rayleigh for the first time with a huge smile and talking about going on an adventure.

- Roger about to fight Shiki with a huge happy smile on his face.

- Roger saying his goodbyes to Rayleigh in a bar before surrendering to the marines. He peacefully says his goodbyes to his friend. Again, with a smile.

- Roger asking Garp, a marine viceadmiral that tried to catch him and fought him throughout all of his carreer, to take care of his son. Garp accepts and there's not a single bad word or gesture between them, despite Garp despising Roger's carreer (just like Smoker dislike's Luffy's despite both Smoker and Luffy being good guys).

And then we have every single character who personally met him is fond of him, and his hat being fondly kept by Shanks and then passed on as a personal symbol to Luffy.

Am I missing any scene? Where's this neverending bloodlust or any proof of Roger being some bad guy?
Roger went out of his way to go beat WB for no reason, nothing like Luffy
Garp said Roger would go looking for fight and would never stop until defeating his enemies, nothing like Luffy
Garp told us that Roger would destroy nations and once massacred an army of a nation because they said something bad about 1 of his nakama, again nothing like Luffy
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I have never said Luffy isn't similar to Garp and WB. That doesn't contradict Luffy's ALSO similar to Roger.

Roger's and Garp's relationship is just like Smoker's and Luffy's. He has also encountered and fought him like four different times already and they're all good guys.

Luffy would destroy Germa 66 for Sanji if he needed to: does that make Luffy a bad guy? Of course not. You can only quote Garp, a marine, making a single line with no context about Roger being violent to protect a nakama (just like Luffy and Shanks do), and ignore every single flashback and other character's opinions about Roger, all of which show him as very similar to Luffy, and even then Garp's statement still shows them as similar.
My point is that Luffy is more similar to Garp and Whitebeard than he is to Roger, the only similarities to Roger are that they want to be PK and are both D. nothing more, unlike with Garp and Whitebeard who he has a lot of character traits with.

Judge said a bunch of nasty things about Sanji but Luffy saw it as him complimenting Sanji, he didn't go out on a killing spree and massacred Germa 66 like Roger once did.
The statements Garp made are pretty solid prove since he is trust worthy and would never say BS just because.
Shanks and Luffy would never fight or kill anyone because they said something bad about their nakama, the bar scene with Higuma and Bellamy should make this pretty clear that both of them are not like Roger.

What similarities though, you have only being questioning me but you have never said this and that are like Luffy and so and so said Luffy and roger are similar because of 1,2,3. The only connections are about being a D. and Pirate King nothing else!
 

Moegara

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Roger went out of his way to go beat WB for no reason, nothing like Luffy
You're claiming Luffy doesn't love to fight for fun? Yeah, that's why both he and Zoro were tempted to fight Jesus Burgess the first time they saw him just because he was claiming to be strong (but didn't because they promised Nami not to fight). "Nothing like Luffy".

Also, if you're referring to the latest flashback, it's the WB pirates who headed over to the island where Roger was, not the other way around. Roger was excited to think about fighting a samurai because he had never met one, but it was the WB's and Oden who went for a fight.

Garp said Roger would go looking for fight and would never stop until defeating his enemies, nothing like Luffy
Garp told us that Roger would destroy nations and once massacred an army of a nation because they said something bad about 1 of his nakama, again nothing like Luffy
I already argued back at this claim but I'll do it once more. Last time.
Those are just Garp's contextless quotes.
Luffy has had one to ten fights in EVERY SINGLE ISLAND he's stopped at, and he fought the government in some of them. If someone from the world of One Piece was to follow his carreer (which isn't the same as reading his adventures on the manga as we do) Luffy would seem like a wild beast looking for a fight at every island he stops at, and hes toppled kingdoms' before (like Drum). Quote his exploits so far with no context, from the mouth of a marine, even a marine like Smoker, and Luffy will look like a bad guy. So far Coby's the only one marine who would actually speak well of Luffy.

Once again. Germa 66 is a kingdom. Luffy would be willing to destroy it if they messed with Sanji, just like he "destroyed Arlong Park because they made Nami cry" or destroyed the Baroque Works "because they made Vivi cry".

Was there much more behind it? Yes, but that's something we the readers know.
We have been shown Roger on many flashback and you weren't able to defend your previous statement of "Roger has been shown as bloodlust and always looking for a fight on flashbacks". Flashbacks, as directly read by us, are what tell us for real how Roger's character was, not Garp's words, and Roger in flashbacks acts consistently just like Luffy does.

The statements Garp made are pretty solid prove since he is trust worthy and would never say BS just because.
Garp hates pirates. That's all there is to it. I still haven't seen a single flashback that proves Garp's words about Roger and until there's one that's just some biased talk from him fearing pirates ("fearing how someone that powerful doesn't follow the law").

Shanks and Luffy would never fight or kill anyone because they said something bad about their nakama, the bar scene with Higuma and Bellamy should make this pretty clear that both of them are not like Roger.
The bar scene with Higuma was about Higuma laughing at Shanks, not at his crewmates. He actually started killing them as soon as they started messing with Luffy.
The bar scene with Bellamy was about upholding the promise made to Nami.

What similarities though, you have only being questioning me but you have never said this and that are like Luffy and so and so said Luffy and roger are similar because of 1,2,3. The only connections are about being a D. and Pirate King nothing else!
I don't know if you're serious now because I have mentioned more than one parallelism along these posts. Their attitude in flashbacks is consistently the same. How they treat their nakamas and their rivals is the same. How Luffy recruited Zoro and how Roger recruited Rayleigh is the same (did you miss my post mentioning all of his flashbacks? None of which show some bloodlusted fiend).

I don't know what else to tell you, since we aren't agreeing on a fundamental level on Roger's personality (the way I see it: mostly because you're placing Garp's vocal opinion on the PK as "factier" than flashbacks) and this isn't even a talk about power levels, so I think we should drop it as it is.
 

thedude

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Again as i explained

Kureha - because of them being D.
Gan Fall - because of them being D.
Neptune - shown to be best buddies with Whitebeard, his son shown to be good friends with Luffy the same arc.

Do you remember what Garp said about Roger? Roger was indeed a bad guy, he was a pirate that would ransack a nation and go out to look for fights just because he was bored, that is nothing like Luffy
Luffy freed multiple murderous prisoners and waged war on the world to save his brother

Let's not pretend he's a saint compared to Roger please...
 

nik87

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The whole manga makes parallels between Luffy and Roger...
Zoro vs Luffys Sandal
Luffy vs Cracker
Where are you taking this? Do you have a panel where anyone has ever made parallels between Luffy and Garp? Combat and all (aside from the gag).
Not a single parallel was combat-related since their combat styles cannot be compared.
Luffy is a puncher, just like Garp. Roger is a swordsman, two fundamentally different styles.
Luffy will be stronger than Garp, he will never be stronger than Roger unless a solution, unseen so far, pops up.

Sandals and Cracker, yes. Thanks for reinforcing my argument.
 

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Honestly this thread is becoming boring and redundant. It always go backs to the same argument and usually started by one person vs. 10 others. The one who is at fault is not that one person but the 10 others who entertain that person.
Then there are the people who tried to change the topics but failed after a few posts. Why doesnt the creator of this thread get involved and stop it? Can we talk about some other characters instead of the majors ones?

Alas, this post will be lost in the never ending sea of swords vs fist.
 

hokageji

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uffy will be stronger than Garp, he will never be stronger than Roger unless a solution, unseen so far, pops up.
And what proof do you have of his strength? Did he beat Mihawk? was he the holder of the previous title?
 

thedude

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Honestly this thread is becoming boring and redundant. It always go backs to the same argument and usually started by one person vs. 10 others. The one who is at fault is not that one person but the 10 others who entertain that person.
Then there are the people who tried to change the topics but failed after a few posts. Why doesnt the creator of this thread get involved and stop it? Can we talk about some other characters instead of the majors ones?

Alas, this post will be lost in the never ending sea of swords vs fist.
I tried a few times...it's annoying, i agree. At least with the current direction I'm able to talk Luffy and Roger, and ignore the stupidity of swords, even if that is what the swordbois are trying to bring it to.

But at this stage, this topic is useless. Any discussion is derailed into Zoro/Mihawk>all, and it's just not worth it.
 

M3J

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You admit that Roger fought people who attacked him but then say the title has nothing to do with power? No one said he had to actually fight someone over the title of PK. However common sense again, to deal with the Garps and WBs of the world he had to be on their level at least hence the PK needing strength to conquer the grand line and reach Raftel. If he was weaker than those people who he clashed with he would have died before becoming PK. Luffy's statement shows what is needed. The admirals and yonko are what stand in the way hence one needing power to handle them to reach Raftel.

You keep harping on Usopp even though Luffy, Chinjao and Rayleigh have associated power with the title. Conquering the sea, being able to reach Raftel, being the most free, handling all the top rivals, are what makes one the PK and only someone powerful enough to do so can do so.

So there will never be a fodder pirate king because it's not just about navigation. Even then, sailing in the new world alone requires strength. In fact the reason WB was even considered the closest to the throne and title of PK is because he was the only pirate known to clash equally with Roger i.e. power is part of the equation since no one knew what Roger did or didn't tell him.
I said that Roger fought people before he even thought about sailing to Raftel or becoming the Pirate King. When he was looking for a Poneglyph to get to Raftel, he found Big Mom's and avoided fighting her. Roger could be weak as hell, but if he managed to get away because he's good at escaping, then that'd be more important because he can avoid fights.

Luffy's statement is based on him wanting to fight the Emperors. It's a choice, not a necessity. Same with fighting the Marines. All three characters have no problem with fighting.

And yet, Whitebeard was never a Pirate King, the only one who was reached Raftel and so far, was said to not have fought Big Mom. But then again, you agree here, we just disagree on strength being a necessity as well. In Luffy's case though, I don't disagree as he plans to fight and likes to fight people.

Its been a point thats been stressed for ages, this is just the usual cycle in the Zoro debate.
And yet people continue to bring it up instead of ignoring.
I could look for times Luffy's been pointed out as similar to Roger, or look for flashbacks in which we actually see him being similar (like when he recruited Rayleigh. That scene had the same exact vibe about Roger that Luffy had when he first met Zoro), but since you're the one claiming Roger's been mentioned as being "an actual bad guy selfish pirate that doesn't mind doing evil things and has nothing to do with how Luffy is" I would really like it if you could please mention when has anything of the sort been said. Has anyone other than biased characters like Akainu, who is actually a villain, actually said anything like that on the manga?

I would also like to remind you that Luffy made a speech on Fishman Island about how "he isn't a hero and people shouldn't expect him to be one. He's a pirate and he just does what he wants to do". Going by his own words and how you defined Roger, you should see a relation. They do what they want to. They're free. They just happen to be good guys.
Don't waste your time with him. Luffy's often been compared to Roger in charisma as well as personality/willingness to help friends, I believe. We've also seen parallels, like Ace, Luffy, and Roger refusing to back down when their loved ones were in danger, and etc.
 

nik87

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And what proof do you have of his strength? Did he beat Mihawk? was he the holder of the previous title?
Proof of Roger's strength? Whether the title existed in his era or not, he was the strongest swordsman and equal clash against Whitebeard, another bladed weapon user and holder of WSM title is proof of his strength.
Proof of Garp's strength? Nothing on panel, except punching Marco.
 

nik87

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Garp still has more feats than Mihawk...
On panel - hitting Marco and Luffy and Chinjao.
Off panel - cornering Roger and fighting Rocks crew. Mountains as training vs Chinjao. Team-up vs Shiki.

I am sure Mihawk has more in both on panel and off panel.
 

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Proof of Roger's strength? Whether the title existed in his era or not, he was the strongest swordsman and equal clash against Whitebeard, another bladed weapon user and holder of WSM title is proof of his strength.
Proof of Garp's strength? Nothing on panel, except punching Marco.
again, with all the talks about panels, shouldnt that apply to Roger too? We've seen one panel where they clashed. Regarding titles, sure that is important and perhaps true but no battles there... so if anything Roger Garp isnt conclusive..
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Garp still has more feats than Mihawk...
I think Mihawk's biggest achievement other than blades is how he can travel between the grandline and the blue's without a scratch on nothing but a coffin...

The only thing that competes with that is Rayleigh's swimming through the calm belt..
 
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