Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Most of what's needed to be said about this Zoro power level and limits has been said, I've just gone back a week's worth of posts and it's literally the same things being repeated. A lot of what has been mentioned in terms of the character and his limit is speculative until we see him pushed in this arc(hopefully), so we can re-evaluate these points afer the fact.
I will be deleting any of the same arguments unless you can provide manga/databook evidence to continue this, so the onus is on you.

There's been too many snide, troll and passive aggressive posts recently. I don't care if you agree with each other or not. If you can't defend your arguments or have nothing constructive to add, then re-evaluate its necessity. I definitely don't want to see any bashing; of character or users.

Also, any discussions not relating to power level will be treated as off-topic, so please take those the correct threads( spoiler: there are pages of threads) or make one. I'll pin this to the top of the page.

If you disagree with anything, PM me or you know...use the report function to save yourself being involved. ~ goldb
 

nik87

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Luffy says he needs to beat Admirals and Emperors to be PK and the strongest man took on the PK and couldn't beat him because he was as strong as him so people can keep their headcanons about a pirate king being weaker than everyone else and never having to fight anyone because he gets magically teleported to Raftel. Lol. There's a difference between being the strongest automatically making you PK and being the strongest allowing you to accomplish becoming PK. No one argues that the strongest pirate is automatically the PK however no one should argue that the PK title has nothing to do with strength when characters have argued otherwise.
The PK title is not a strength title, it has been explained several times, it is navigational achievement.
Yes, Roger fought Whitebeard. Was that necessary achievement for becoming a PK? Absolutely not.
Was even a single fight a necessary task for him to become PK? Again, absolutely not.

If people still want to use PK as PL title then it scales to the title holder and doesnt represent the same strength.
Luffy wont be as strong as Roger, he doesnt use a bladed weapon, his lethality is miles below Roger's.
So, when referring to PK as PL title, people should specify which PK they mean, Roger or Luffy, because they are 2 different PLs.
 

M3J

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Luffy says he needs to beat Admirals and Emperors to be PK and the strongest man took on the PK and couldn't beat him because he was as strong as him so people can keep their headcanons about a pirate king being weaker than everyone else and never having to fight anyone because he gets magically teleported to Raftel. Lol. There's a difference between being the strongest automatically making you PK and being the strongest allowing you to accomplish becoming PK. No one argues that the strongest pirate is automatically the PK however no one should argue that the PK title has nothing to do with strength when characters have argued otherwise.
Learn what a head canon is. You haven't proven me wrong. Yeah, Luffy said that because he wants to fight people, but again, if he really thought fighting was necessary, then he'd argue with Usopp, not look annoyed at Usopp telling him he doesn't need to take on the Emperors.

Still an assumption that you have to be the strongest. Roger didn't set to become the Pirate King or go to Raftel until 20, 30 years after he started his journey. Between that time, he fought other pirates for the fun of it or because they attacked him or pissed him off. He didn't choose to fight anyone for the title.

Proof shows otherwise. :cookiehand
 

AmitDS

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The PK title is not a strength title, it has been explained several times, it is navigational achievement.
Yes, Roger fought Whitebeard. Was that necessary achievement for becoming a PK? Absolutely not.
Was even a single fight a necessary task for him to become PK? Again, absolutely not.

If people still want to use PK as PL title then it scales to the title holder and doesnt represent the same strength.
Luffy wont be as strong as Roger, he doesnt use a bladed weapon, his lethality is miles below Roger's.
So, when referring to PK as PL title, people should specify which PK they mean, Roger or Luffy, because they are 2 different PLs.
It is a necessary achievement to become PK because if he wasn't the strongest he would have been defeated by admirals and rival pirates like WB, Garp, Sengoku etc. Surviving in the new world alone requires power and continuing on to find poneglyphs, steal them etc. also requires power. What you all are not understanding is that in order to even be able to reach Raftel power is needed to handle what the new world brings. It's not something that can be accomplished without strength. That's why Luffy said he needed to beat emperors and admirals before be becomes PK. That is why he trains. Roger was the strongest (with WB) and Luffy will be the strongest also. I have no idea how something so simple is so hard to get.

Roger was the strongest pirate and on par with WB. Hence PK level is a level of power since it's synonymous with Roger's power level. And that is how I use it. If you have an issue then that's your issue because thus far there has only been one pirate king he was the strongest pirate.

Luffy wont be as strong as Roger, he doesnt use a bladed weapon, his lethality is miles below Roger's.
So, when referring to PK as PL title, people should specify which PK they mean, Roger or Luffy, because they are 2 different PLs.
Lol. Can you give the sword crap a rest? Luffy is not the pirate king yet and common sense dictates that he'd be at least be on Roger and WB's level if not greater. Sorry it messes with your Zoro surpassing Mihawk thing being the zenith of power in OP. If you say stuff like this I really don't see any reason to even attempt to continue this. Have fun with the swords.
 

nik87

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Roger was the strongest pirate and on par with WB. Hence PK level is a level of power since it's synonymous with Roger's power level.
So, PK is the lvl of sick Roger. Because Roger at his strongest wasnt PK yet.
Lol. Can you give the sword crap a rest? Luffy is not the pirate king yet and common sense dictates that he'd be at least be on Roger and WB's level if not greater. Sorry it messes with your Zoro surpassing Mihawk thing being the zenith of power in OP. If you say stuff like this I really don't see any reason to even attempt to continue this. Have fun with the swords.
What sword crap? It is a manga fact that Luffy needs hundreds of hits to take his opponents out while swordsmen do it in one clean slash.
How can you put a sign of the equation between those? You are either taking a dump on Roger or hyping up Luffy without anything to back it up...
I am not worried about Zoro, he will be the nr1 in the universe at EoS, I am worried about Luffy. He can only compete if he becomes a god or something so I guess you should put all your cards on CoC being some broken shit to compensate for Luffy's other weaknesses.
 

AmitDS

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Learn what a head canon is. You haven't proven me wrong. Yeah, Luffy said that because he wants to fight people, but again, if he really thought fighting was necessary, then he'd argue with Usopp, not look annoyed at Usopp telling him he doesn't need to take on the Emperors.

Still an assumption that you have to be the strongest. Roger didn't set to become the Pirate King or go to Raftel until 20, 30 years after he started his journey. Between that time, he fought other pirates for the fun of it or because they attacked him or pissed him off. He didn't choose to fight anyone for the title.

Proof shows otherwise. :cookiehand
You admit that Roger fought people who attacked him but then say the title has nothing to do with power? No one said he had to actually fight someone over the title of PK. However common sense again, to deal with the Garps and WBs of the world he had to be on their level at least hence the PK needing strength to conquer the grand line and reach Raftel. If he was weaker than those people who he clashed with he would have died before becoming PK. Luffy's statement shows what is needed. The admirals and yonko are what stand in the way hence one needing power to handle them to reach Raftel.

You keep harping on Usopp even though Luffy, Chinjao and Rayleigh have associated power with the title. Conquering the sea, being able to reach Raftel, being the most free, handling all the top rivals, are what makes one the PK and only someone powerful enough to do so can do so.

So there will never be a fodder pirate king because it's not just about navigation. Even then, sailing in the new world alone requires strength. In fact the reason WB was even considered the closest to the throne and title of PK is because he was the only pirate known to clash equally with Roger i.e. power is part of the equation since no one knew what Roger did or didn't tell him.
 
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Moegara

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You admit that Roger fought people who attacked him but then say the title has nothing to do with power? No one said he had to actually fight someone over the title of PK. However common sense again, to deal with the Garps and WBs of the world he had to be on their level at least hence the PK needing strength to conquer the grand line and reach Raftel. If he was weaker than those people who he clashed with he would have died before becoming PK. Luffy's statement shows what is needed. The admirals and yonko are what stand in the way hence one needing power to handle them to reach Raftel.

You keep harping on Usopp even though Luffy, Chinjao and Rayleigh have associated power with the title as well since it ties into finding Raftel. Conquering the sea to reach Raftel is what makes one the PK and only someone powerful enough to do so can do so. So there will never be a fodder pirate king because it's not just about navigation. Sailing in the new world alone requires strength. In fact the reason WB was even considered the closest to the throne and title of PK is because he was the only pirate known to clash equally with Roger i.e. power is part of the equation since no one knew what Roger did or didn't tell him.
I agree. Roger's PK title implies strength because he had to survive numerous fights against strong crews and admirals and he even won against the Rocks (yes, with Garp's help, which also means one of the strongest marines ever thought Roger's, a hated pirate's, help was necessary to beat the Rocks). However Luffy will have it even harder since "One Piece" wasn't a thing at the time of Roger. Raftel and the One Piece's existence are extremely sought after now and most strong pirates will want to compete against Luffy for the next PK title.

So definitely, even if some strong pirates like Whitebeard or Mihawk don't care about the PK title, having to come out above most of the top tier crews clashing for the title means the PK is the strongest pirate captain who rises above the others.
That doesn't mean the PK can't have a tie or lose any a fight, because there are obviously many other strong guys out there who may come close to his level like Whitebeard did to Roger's.
 

Aki1991

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So Usopp will be the strongest EOS by Nik's logic because firearms/guns >>> swords? ;D
 

AmitDS

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I agree. Roger's PK title implies strength because he had to survive numerous fights against strong crews and admirals and he even won against the Rocks (yes, with Garp's help, which also means one of the strongest marines ever thought Roger's, a hated pirate's, help was necessary to beat the Rocks). However Luffy will have it even harder since "One Piece" wasn't a thing at the time of Roger. Raftel and the One Piece's existence are extremely sought after now and most strong pirates will want to compete against Luffy for the next PK title.

So definitely, even if some strong pirates like Whitebeard or Mihawk don't care about the PK title, having to come out above most of the top tier crews clashing for the title means the PK is the strongest pirate captain who rises above the others.
That doesn't mean the PK can't have a tie or lose any a fight, because there are obviously many other strong guys out there who may come close to his level like Whitebeard did to Roger's.
It was also stated that the PK is the most free, the one who conquered the seas, the one who rose above all contenders. So if a fodder reached Raftel he wouldn't be PK because he'd be cowering and dodging every pirate to avoid conflict and he wouldn't truly conquer anything since he'd be hiding and avoiding every island where he might face an enemy.

So even if we ignore that power allows one to reach Raftel and ONE reason the title is so illustrious is BECAUSE of the people you surpass to attain it, a fodder reaching Raftel by magic without ever fighting an admiral or emperor, still wouldn't hold the weight Roger's journey did.

One needs to equal or surpass Roger to be PK. It's what has been shown and implied. Not everything needs a single direct statement like it's directions we're reading. If we read through the manga the title of PK is shown to have different aspects. And this is outside of Raftel itself needing power.

Also Luffy said he wants to surpass Roger and we know Roger and his crew reached too early so Luffy changing the world with Shirahoshi, Viví, his allies and the revolutionary army or whatever should be how he does this, at least partly.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

So Usopp will be the strongest EOS by Nik's logic because firearms/guns >>> swords? ;D
Idk how someone can seriously say that Luffy will never reach Roger's level because Roger uses swords and Luffy doesn't. So I guess Luffy can just pick up a sword and in that moment he'd be stronger?
 
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Moegara

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So Usopp will be the strongest EOS by Nik's logic because firearms/guns >>> swords? ;D
I know you're just trolling Nik with that but the manga was fast to specifically show what happens when a non-haki user shoots at a top tier swordsman like Mihawk, during the Baratie arc.
The way he deflected those bullets with finesse instead of strength implies it would probably also work against haki infused bullets like Beckman's.

And then Tashigi later did something similtar against a cannon ball, despite she being pretty low-tier as a swordswoman.

Idk how someone can seriously say that Luffy will never reach Roger's level because Roger uses swords and Luffy doesn't. So I guess Luffy can just pick up a sword and in that moment he'd be stronger?
I can't avoid agreeing with half of what Nik says: If two guys fight with a comparable level of skill and haki prowess, yet one is a brawler and the other is a swordsman, the swordsman is more likely to win, and Luffy hasn't fought anyone strong who relies on a sword since Arlong (against who he had some amazing feats at the time, I must admit). Cracker definitely doesn't count. He had a famous sword, and holding a sword obviously makes you "a swordsman", but the techniques he showed with the sword weren't very impressive and he still relied on his fruit more than his sword. Definitely not a weak character but his Commander title definitely wasn't because of his swordsmanship skills.

However, we know if one's haki is stronger than the swordsman's, one can stop their blade with the palm of a hand. Roger wasn't PK because he held a sword (and a gun). We don't even know if he had a fruit yet and we know Garp has clashed with him and he still has all his limbs. Luffy will more than likely surpass him since he's destined for something greater than he was. The weapon choice alone isn't everything to power level and Luffy could obliterate most swordsmen from the OP world.
 

nik87

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Luffy will never reach Roger's level because Roger uses swords and Luffy doesn't.
Correct. He will reach Garp's level. He is comparable to Luffy since he is also a puncher. Roger isnt.
So I guess Luffy can just pick up a sword and in that moment he'd be stronger?
No. He picked up a sword for lulz in Wano and Arlong Park, it made him weaker.
 

AmitDS

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Correct. He will reach Garp's level. He is comparable to Luffy since he is also a puncher. Roger isnt.

No. He picked up a sword for lulz in Wano and Arlong Park, it made him weaker.
Did you just quote part of my post to twist the meaning? Wow. When Luffy surpasses Roger this would seem even more silly.
 

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So Usopp will be the strongest EOS by Nik's logic because firearms/guns >>> swords? ;D
That's noone's logic.

You can adjust the strength of your punch, you can adjust the power of your slash. What you can't do is increase the speed of a bullet. You can only clad it in haki, but even then it's not as fast and doesn't have as big of an AoE for strong characters to be intimidated by bullets.

Swordsmen can cut mountains in half, punchers were shown to be able to destroy mountain too...
 

Aki1991

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That's noone's logic.

You can adjust the strength of your punch, you can adjust the power of your slash. What you can't do is increase the speed of a bullet. You can only clad it in haki, but even then it's not as fast and doesn't have as big of an AoE for strong characters to be intimidated by bullets.

Swordsmen can cut mountains in half, punchers were shown to be able to destroy mountain too...
That was irony of course...

Because Niks argument was swords > all because they are more lethal than fists.

However, in theory you can increase bullets power by increase the speed or add some mass on the bullet with Haki.

But it was irony from my side anyway. Oda stated that Luffy > Zoro, so I don't care what swordsman fanboys are saying.
 

nik87

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When Luffy surpasses Roger this would seem even more silly.
That's the thing, Luffy will never surpass Roger, he will surpass Garp.
Luffy and Roger arent comparable since their combat style is completely different.
Oda doesnt seem to mix the two combat styles so there is nothing to worry about Luffy having no answer for swords since plot will never demand it from him.
 

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That's the thing, Luffy will never surpass Roger, he will surpass Garp.
Luffy and Roger arent comparable since their combat style is completely different.
Oda doesnt seem to mix the two combat styles so there is nothing to worry about Luffy having no answer for swords since plot will never demand it from him.
The whole manga makes parallels between Luffy and Roger...

Zoro vs Luffys Sandal
Luffy vs Cracker

Where are you taking this? Do you have a panel where anyone has ever made parallels between Luffy and Garp? Combat and all (aside from the gag).
 

Shasha23

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The whole manga makes parallels between Luffy and Roger...
NO........Luffy is more like Garp and Whitebeard, the story goes out of its way to show Luffy as a good guy while on the other hand Roger was a true pirate who did a lot of pirate things, like destroying kingdoms and killing people just because he could, Roger and Luffy are nothing alike except for the fact of being Pirate King
 

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NO........Luffy is more like Garp and Whitebeard, the story goes out of its way to show Luffy as a good guy while on the other hand Roger was a true pirate who did a lot of pirate things, like destroying kingdoms and killing people just because he could, Roger and Luffy are nothing alike except for the fact of being Pirate King
This is not the first time I read the manga has shown Roger as a "bad guy that does pirate things" yet I don't remember a single time the manga has actually shown him as any different to Luffy. Quite the contrary, every person we see that remembers Roger is fond of him. Even Crocus remembers Roger right after meeting Luffy.
 

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This is not the first time I read the manga has shown Roger as a "bad guy that does pirate things" yet I don't remember a single time the manga has actually shown him as any different to Luffy. Quite the contrary, every person we see that remembers Roger is fond of him. Even Crocus remembers Roger right after meeting Luffy.
Right, who has Luffy met who met Roger?

Kureha - remembers Roger fondly and is reminded of him when she sees Luffy
Gan Fall - remembers Roger fondly, reminded of Luffy.
Neptune - shown to be a good friend of Roger

What in any of these portrayals makes Roger seem like a "bad guy" to anyone? He was exactly like Luffy, that's not just been hinted at, we've been bashed over the head with it.
 

jaymizzo

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NO........Luffy is more like Garp and Whitebeard, the story goes out of its way to show Luffy as a good guy while on the other hand Roger was a true pirate who did a lot of pirate things, like destroying kingdoms and killing people just because he could, Roger and Luffy are nothing alike except for the fact of being Pirate King
Where are these parallels between Luffy and WB and Garp? As far as I remember it was a gag on them falling asleep, Luffy being a troublemaker like Garp (or something to that effect by Sengoku/something about something being wrong with Garps family). Not once do I recall anyone saying Luffy reminds them of WB or Garp. Its been consistently Roger. Be it Luffy raising hell because of one crew member (like Roger did), Luffy proclaiming he is going to be PK and truly believe it (like Roger), same dream (freest man) etc.

Please, where are these comparisons to Garp and WB in the manga? We can make those connections as fans but I stated in the manga. I mean Shanks gave Luffy Rogers hat for the lols.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Right, who has Luffy met who met Roger?

Kureha - remembers Roger fondly and is reminded of him when she sees Luffy
Gan Fall - remembers Roger fondly, reminded of Luffy.
Neptune - shown to be a good friend of Roger

What in any of these portrayals makes Roger seem like a "bad guy" to anyone? He was exactly like Luffy, that's not just been hinted at, we've been bashed over the head with it.
Roger is a swordsman therefore is not like Luffy a barehandedman, therefore if Roger is a swordsman and Zoro is a swordsman, Zoro will surpass Roger because Roger is a swordsman and Zoro is destined to surpass swordsman, therefore Zoro is going to be stronger than PK level :3c
 

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Ugh, this discussion is still going?

Are swords superior to fists? In the real world they are. But you know what is even better? Guns. That's why swords stopped being used.

But swordmen are not superior to hand-to-hand fighters in One Piece world. Garp may have been on par with Roger and Whitebeard on his prime, and he only used his fists.
 
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