Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

You admit that Roger fought people who attacked him but then say the title has nothing to do with power? No one said he had to actually fight someone over the title of PK. However common sense again, to deal with the Garps and WBs of the world he had to be on their level at least hence the PK needing strength to conquer the grand line and reach Raftel. If he was weaker than those people who he clashed with he would have died before becoming PK. Luffy's statement shows what is needed. The admirals and yonko are what stand in the way hence one needing power to handle them to reach Raftel.

You keep harping on Usopp even though Luffy, Chinjao and Rayleigh have associated power with the title as well since it ties into finding Raftel. Conquering the sea to reach Raftel is what makes one the PK and only someone powerful enough to do so can do so. So there will never be a fodder pirate king because it's not just about navigation. Sailing in the new world alone requires strength. In fact the reason WB was even considered the closest to the throne and title of PK is because he was the only pirate known to clash equally with Roger i.e. power is part of the equation since no one knew what Roger did or didn't tell him.

I agree. Roger's PK title implies strength because he had to survive numerous fights against strong crews and admirals and he even won against the Rocks (yes, with Garp's help, which also means one of the strongest marines ever thought Roger's, a hated pirate's, help was necessary to beat the Rocks). However Luffy will have it even harder since "One Piece" wasn't a thing at the time of Roger. Raftel and the One Piece's existence are extremely sought after now and most strong pirates will want to compete against Luffy for the next PK title.

So definitely, even if some strong pirates like Whitebeard or Mihawk don't care about the PK title, having to come out above most of the top tier crews clashing for the title means the PK is the strongest pirate captain who rises above the others.
That doesn't mean the PK can't have a tie or lose any a fight, because there are obviously many other strong guys out there who may come close to his level like Whitebeard did to Roger's.

 

[Aki1991]

So Usopp will be the strongest EOS by Nik's logic because firearms/guns >>> swords? ;D

 

[AmitDS]

I agree. Roger's PK title implies strength because he had to survive numerous fights against strong crews and admirals and he even won against the Rocks (yes, with Garp's help, which also means one of the strongest marines ever thought Roger's, a hated pirate's, help was necessary to beat the Rocks). However Luffy will have it even harder since "One Piece" wasn't a thing at the time of Roger. Raftel and the One Piece's existence are extremely sought after now and most strong pirates will want to compete against Luffy for the next PK title.

So definitely, even if some strong pirates like Whitebeard or Mihawk don't care about the PK title, having to come out above most of the top tier crews clashing for the title means the PK is the strongest pirate captain who rises above the others.
That doesn't mean the PK can't have a tie or lose any a fight, because there are obviously many other strong guys out there who may come close to his level like Whitebeard did to Roger's.

It was also stated that the PK is the most free, the one who conquered the seas, the one who rose above all contenders. So if a fodder reached Raftel he wouldn't be PK because he'd be cowering and dodging every pirate to avoid conflict and he wouldn't truly conquer anything since he'd be hiding and avoiding every island where he might face an enemy.

So even if we ignore that power allows one to reach Raftel and ONE reason the title is so illustrious is BECAUSE of the people you surpass to attain it, a fodder reaching Raftel by magic without ever fighting an admiral or emperor, still wouldn't hold the weight Roger's journey did.

One needs to equal or surpass Roger to be PK. It's what has been shown and implied. Not everything needs a single direct statement like it's directions we're reading. If we read through the manga the title of PK is shown to have different aspects. And this is outside of Raftel itself needing power.

Also Luffy said he wants to surpass Roger and we know Roger and his crew reached too early so Luffy changing the world with Shirahoshi, Viví, his allies and the revolutionary army or whatever should be how he does this, at least partly.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 30, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 30, 2020 ---

So Usopp will be the strongest EOS by Nik's logic because firearms/guns >>> swords? ;D

Idk how someone can seriously say that Luffy will never reach Roger's level because Roger uses swords and Luffy doesn't. So I guess Luffy can just pick up a sword and in that moment he'd be stronger?

 

[Nie Li]

So Usopp will be the strongest EOS by Nik's logic because firearms/guns >>> swords? ;D

I know you're just trolling Nik with that but the manga was fast to specifically show what happens when a non-haki user shoots at a top tier swordsman like Mihawk, during the Baratie arc.
The way he deflected those bullets with finesse instead of strength implies it would probably also work against haki infused bullets like Beckman's.

And then Tashigi later did something similtar against a cannon ball, despite she being pretty low-tier as a swordswoman.

Idk how someone can seriously say that Luffy will never reach Roger's level because Roger uses swords and Luffy doesn't. So I guess Luffy can just pick up a sword and in that moment he'd be stronger?

I can't avoid agreeing with half of what Nik says: If two guys fight with a comparable level of skill and haki prowess, yet one is a brawler and the other is a swordsman, the swordsman is more likely to win, and Luffy hasn't fought anyone strong who relies on a sword since Arlong (against who he had some amazing feats at the time, I must admit). Cracker definitely doesn't count. He had a famous sword, and holding a sword obviously makes you "a swordsman", but the techniques he showed with the sword weren't very impressive and he still relied on his fruit more than his sword. Definitely not a weak character but his Commander title definitely wasn't because of his swordsmanship skills.

However, we know if one's haki is stronger than the swordsman's, one can stop their blade with the palm of a hand. Roger wasn't PK because he held a sword (and a gun). We don't even know if he had a fruit yet and we know Garp has clashed with him and he still has all his limbs. Luffy will more than likely surpass him since he's destined for something greater than he was. The weapon choice alone isn't everything to power level and Luffy could obliterate most swordsmen from the OP world.

 

[nik87]

Luffy will never reach Roger's level because Roger uses swords and Luffy doesn't.

Correct. He will reach Garp's level. He is comparable to Luffy since he is also a puncher. Roger isnt.

So I guess Luffy can just pick up a sword and in that moment he'd be stronger?

No. He picked up a sword for lulz in Wano and Arlong Park, it made him weaker.

 

[AmitDS]

Correct. He will reach Garp's level. He is comparable to Luffy since he is also a puncher. Roger isnt.

No. He picked up a sword for lulz in Wano and Arlong Park, it made him weaker.

Did you just quote part of my post to twist the meaning? Wow. When Luffy surpasses Roger this would seem even more silly.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

So Usopp will be the strongest EOS by Nik's logic because firearms/guns >>> swords? ;D

That's noone's logic.

You can adjust the strength of your punch, you can adjust the power of your slash. What you can't do is increase the speed of a bullet. You can only clad it in haki, but even then it's not as fast and doesn't have as big of an AoE for strong characters to be intimidated by bullets.

Swordsmen can cut mountains in half, punchers were shown to be able to destroy mountain too...

 

[Aki1991]

That's noone's logic.

You can adjust the strength of your punch, you can adjust the power of your slash. What you can't do is increase the speed of a bullet. You can only clad it in haki, but even then it's not as fast and doesn't have as big of an AoE for strong characters to be intimidated by bullets.

Swordsmen can cut mountains in half, punchers were shown to be able to destroy mountain too...

That was irony of course...

Because Niks argument was swords > all because they are more lethal than fists.

However, in theory you can increase bullets power by increase the speed or add some mass on the bullet with Haki.

But it was irony from my side anyway. Oda stated that Luffy > Zoro, so I don't care what swordsman fanboys are saying.

 

[nik87]

When Luffy surpasses Roger this would seem even more silly.

That's the thing, Luffy will never surpass Roger, he will surpass Garp.
Luffy and Roger arent comparable since their combat style is completely different.
Oda doesnt seem to mix the two combat styles so there is nothing to worry about Luffy having no answer for swords since plot will never demand it from him.

 

[jaymizzo]

That's the thing, Luffy will never surpass Roger, he will surpass Garp.
Luffy and Roger arent comparable since their combat style is completely different.
Oda doesnt seem to mix the two combat styles so there is nothing to worry about Luffy having no answer for swords since plot will never demand it from him.

The whole manga makes parallels between Luffy and Roger...

Zoro vs Luffys Sandal
Luffy vs Cracker

Where are you taking this? Do you have a panel where anyone has ever made parallels between Luffy and Garp? Combat and all (aside from the gag).

 

[Shasha23]

The whole manga makes parallels between Luffy and Roger...

NO........Luffy is more like Garp and Whitebeard, the story goes out of its way to show Luffy as a good guy while on the other hand Roger was a true pirate who did a lot of pirate things, like destroying kingdoms and killing people just because he could, Roger and Luffy are nothing alike except for the fact of being Pirate King

 

[Nie Li]

NO........Luffy is more like Garp and Whitebeard, the story goes out of its way to show Luffy as a good guy while on the other hand Roger was a true pirate who did a lot of pirate things, like destroying kingdoms and killing people just because he could, Roger and Luffy are nothing alike except for the fact of being Pirate King

This is not the first time I read the manga has shown Roger as a "bad guy that does pirate things" yet I don't remember a single time the manga has actually shown him as any different to Luffy. Quite the contrary, every person we see that remembers Roger is fond of him. Even Crocus remembers Roger right after meeting Luffy.

 

[thedude]

This is not the first time I read the manga has shown Roger as a "bad guy that does pirate things" yet I don't remember a single time the manga has actually shown him as any different to Luffy. Quite the contrary, every person we see that remembers Roger is fond of him. Even Crocus remembers Roger right after meeting Luffy.

Right, who has Luffy met who met Roger?

Kureha - remembers Roger fondly and is reminded of him when she sees Luffy
Gan Fall - remembers Roger fondly, reminded of Luffy.
Neptune - shown to be a good friend of Roger

What in any of these portrayals makes Roger seem like a "bad guy" to anyone? He was exactly like Luffy, that's not just been hinted at, we've been bashed over the head with it.

 

[jaymizzo]

NO........Luffy is more like Garp and Whitebeard, the story goes out of its way to show Luffy as a good guy while on the other hand Roger was a true pirate who did a lot of pirate things, like destroying kingdoms and killing people just because he could, Roger and Luffy are nothing alike except for the fact of being Pirate King

Where are these parallels between Luffy and WB and Garp? As far as I remember it was a gag on them falling asleep, Luffy being a troublemaker like Garp (or something to that effect by Sengoku/something about something being wrong with Garps family). Not once do I recall anyone saying Luffy reminds them of WB or Garp. Its been consistently Roger. Be it Luffy raising hell because of one crew member (like Roger did), Luffy proclaiming he is going to be PK and truly believe it (like Roger), same dream (freest man) etc.

Please, where are these comparisons to Garp and WB in the manga? We can make those connections as fans but I stated in the manga. I mean Shanks gave Luffy Rogers hat for the lols.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 30, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 30, 2020 ---

Right, who has Luffy met who met Roger?

Kureha - remembers Roger fondly and is reminded of him when she sees Luffy
Gan Fall - remembers Roger fondly, reminded of Luffy.
Neptune - shown to be a good friend of Roger

What in any of these portrayals makes Roger seem like a "bad guy" to anyone? He was exactly like Luffy, that's not just been hinted at, we've been bashed over the head with it.

Roger is a swordsman therefore is not like Luffy a barehandedman, therefore if Roger is a swordsman and Zoro is a swordsman, Zoro will surpass Roger because Roger is a swordsman and Zoro is destined to surpass swordsman, therefore Zoro is going to be stronger than PK level

 

[Fox666]

Ugh, this discussion is still going?

Are swords superior to fists? In the real world they are. But you know what is even better? Guns. That's why swords stopped being used.

But swordmen are not superior to hand-to-hand fighters in One Piece world. Garp may have been on par with Roger and Whitebeard on his prime, and he only used his fists.

 

[jaymizzo]

Ugh, this discussion is still going?

Are swords superior to fists? In the real world they are. But you know what is even better? Guns. That's why swords stopped being used.

But swordmen are not superior to hand-to-hand fighters in One Piece world. Garp may have been on par with Roger and Whitebeard on his prime, and he only used his fists.

Its been a point thats been stressed for ages, this is just the usual cycle in the Zoro debate.

Garp and Roger being equal is Oda not representing it right. I remember reading someone saying exactly that, that mangaka are not doing swords justice in the manga. Because flying slashes are a thing.

 

[Aliocha]

better haki is something

 

[Shasha23]

Where are these parallels between Luffy and WB and Garp? As far as I remember it was a gag on them falling asleep, Luffy being a troublemaker like Garp (or something to that effect by Sengoku/something about something being wrong with Garps family). Not once do I recall anyone saying Luffy reminds them of WB or Garp. Its been consistently Roger. Be it Luffy raising hell because of one crew member (like Roger did), Luffy proclaiming he is going to be PK and truly believe it (like Roger), same dream (freest man) etc.

Please, where are these comparisons to Garp and WB in the manga? We can make those connections as fans but I stated in the manga. I mean Shanks gave Luffy Rogers hat for the lols.

The WG comments on how Luffy's action make sense since he is like Garp,they both dont care if someone is on the right or wrong side of justice as long as they are good people they trust them, same love for food and even Aokiji comments on how much similar Luffy is to Garp.
As for WB and Luffy they both seem to care about people they meet and go around protecting nations from evil, even though Luffy doesn't like it he does have people sailing under him who call themselves his "sons" and like Whitebeard he doesn't care all that much about money but would rather give away money to those who need it.

The only time people think Luffy is similar to Roger is because of being Pirate King thing or being a D. nothing else, there has never been one time in the story where someone said ohh Luffy is similar to Roger because of 1,2,3 but it has always been about them wanting to be Pirate King. The only person who has been compared to Roger was Ace because of their short temper and nature to be emo and look for fights.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 30, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 30, 2020 ---

This is not the first time I read the manga has shown Roger as a "bad guy that does pirate things" yet I don't remember a single time the manga has actually shown him as any different to Luffy. Quite the contrary, every person we see that remembers Roger is fond of him. Even Crocus remembers Roger right after meeting Luffy.

The only times where we are shown Roger's past on panels is him being bloodlusted and looking to beat up people, other than that its all credible character statements from Garp and Roger's victims, and from that nothing about Roger is similar to Luffy, even people who compare them its because of their goal and them being a D. that they find similar not them having the same character as people, many people have been shown to say Luffy is so much like Garp.
Crocus was remembering Roger because of what Luffy said about being Pirate King not about Luffy;s character being the same as Roger's.

 

[Nie Li]

The WG comments on how Luffy's action make sense since he is like Garp,they both dont care if someone is on the right or wrong side of justice as long as they are good people they trust them, same love for food and even Aokiji comments on how much similar Luffy is to Garp.
As for WB and Luffy they both seem to care about people they meet and go around protecting nations from evil, even though Luffy doesn't like it he does have people sailing under him who call themselves his "sons" and like Whitebeard he doesn't care all that much about money but would rather give away money to those who need it.

The only time people think Luffy is similar to Roger is because of being Pirate King thing or being a D. nothing else, there has never been one time in the story where someone said ohh Luffy is similar to Roger because of 1,2,3 but it has always been about them wanting to be Pirate King. The only person who has been compared to Roger was Ace because of their short temper and nature to be emo and look for fights.

I could look for times Luffy's been pointed out as similar to Roger, or look for flashbacks in which we actually see him being similar (like when he recruited Rayleigh. That scene had the same exact vibe about Roger that Luffy had when he first met Zoro), but since you're the one claiming Roger's been mentioned as being "an actual bad guy selfish pirate that doesn't mind doing evil things and has nothing to do with how Luffy is" I would really like it if you could please mention when has anything of the sort been said. Has anyone other than biased characters like Akainu, who is actually a villain, actually said anything like that on the manga?

I would also like to remind you that Luffy made a speech on Fishman Island about how "he isn't a hero and people shouldn't expect him to be one. He's a pirate and he just does what he wants to do". Going by his own words and how you defined Roger, you should see a relation. They do what they want to. They're free. They just happen to be good guys.

 

[Shasha23]

Right, who has Luffy met who met Roger?

Kureha - remembers Roger fondly and is reminded of him when she sees Luffy
Gan Fall - remembers Roger fondly, reminded of Luffy.
Neptune - shown to be a good friend of Roger

What in any of these portrayals makes Roger seem like a "bad guy" to anyone? He was exactly like Luffy, that's not just been hinted at, we've been bashed over the head with it.

Again as i explained

Kureha - because of them being D.
Gan Fall - because of them being D.
Neptune - shown to be best buddies with Whitebeard, his son shown to be good friends with Luffy the same arc.

Do you remember what Garp said about Roger? Roger was indeed a bad guy, he was a pirate that would ransack a nation and go out to look for fights just because he was bored, that is nothing like Luffy