It's true that the battle against doflamingo was one of attrition but that doesn't really make a difference to what I said. And even law landing his gama blade on doflamingo required support iirc. Also, it's not even remotely the same type of damage as what ace took from akainu. The gama knife is a simple cut which slashes internal organs. And doflamingo stitched himself back together because he simply took a cut. Akainu punched through ace with a lava fist. Akainu basically got rid of ace insides, there was nothing left that could be healed. If doflamingo gets a lava fist through his stomach its game over unless the guy can weave entirely new organs and a spine from his strings.
The Gamma Knife technique is not just a cutting technique, it burns the insides, it's not really different from Akainu's punch other than Law's technique somehow doesn't damage the exterior of the body. There was literally smoke coming out from Doflamingo's mouth from his insides burning.
Law tag teamed Doflamingo, true, but Luffy fought against a Doflamingo whose insides had just been burned up by Law's most powerful technique. Even if he stitched them up somehow and was still crazy strong, I would never think Doflamingo was at his best for the rest of the fight.
But... what this assumes is not that law has grown as much as luffy, this would imply law has grown more than luffy. Because law was clearly not as strong as luffy back at dressrosa. So if the possibility is raised that law has managed to caught up with luffy then clearly the implication is that law's growth has to be greater than luffy's. But regardless, luffy's growth has been entirely extraordinary and there is zero evidence anywhere that law has kept up or caught up. same goes for the rest of luffy's peers.
I don't still don't agree that Luffy was that "clearly" superior to Law back then for the reasons I stated and even then may still be around his level for the same arguments I provided. So I can't agree on the implications of that.
The Gamma Knife technique is not just a cutting technique, it burns the insides, it's not really different from Akainu's punch other than Law's technique somehow doesn't damage the exterior of the body. There was literally smoke coming out from Doflamingo's mouth from his insides burning.
Law tag teamed Doflamingo, true, but Luffy fought against a Doflamingo whose insides had just been burned up by Law's most powerful technique. Even if he stitched them up somehow and was still crazy strong, I would never think Doflamingo was at his best for the rest of the fight.
I don't still don't agree that Luffy was that "clearly" superior to Law back then for the reasons I stated and even then may still be around his level for the same arguments I provided. So I can't agree on the implications of that.
It's never been said the gama knife burns the insides. The manga only says the technique destroys internal organs. And it is delivered by a knife shaped thing... And even if the technique burns organs... It doesn't change much as the only way doflamingo could have in any way healed that is that the organs were mostly there. Since he was just stitching them up with his ability. Which is still completely different to having a lava fist burn away most of your insides into non existence.
But... what evidence is that law in any way approached gear 4 luffy? None of the reasons you have brought up amount of law keeping up with gear 4 or being able to not get one or two shooted by it.
It's never been said the gama knife burns the insides. The manga only says the technique destroys internal organs. And it is delivered by a knife shaped thing... And even if the technique burns organs... It doesn't change much as the only way doflamingo could have in any way healed that is that the organs were mostly there. Since he was just stitching them up with his ability. Which is still completely different to having a lava fist burn away most of your insides into non existence.
The fact that Doflamingo could stitch his internal organs and just keep fighting is weird in itself even if his organs had simply been cut, but there are three reasons to believe Law's technique burned his insides:
- Smoke coming out from Doflamingo's mouth.
- The fact that it's Law's "strongest technique". It wouldn't be much different from attacks like the Injection Shot if it was just about cutting.
- The name "Gamma Knife". We know Law's techniques have very different natures among themselves and that they're based on the tools one should find in a modern surgery room. The name implies the attack consists of focusing a radiation beam to burn and destroy selective cells inside of a human body.
But... what evidence is that law in any way approached gear 4 luffy? None of the reasons you have brought up amount of law keeping up with gear 4 or being able to not get one or two shooted by it.
We don't know how much Law has grown. For all we know he could pull a power up similar to Gear 2. We also didn't see Luffy train or create that one either and he came up with it after Long Ring Long Land and before Enies Lobby, so during their short stay at Water 7.
Assuming Law hasn't grown THAT much as Luffy has, it comes back to my original comment of Luffy probably being stronger now thanks to his new haki.
The Gear 4 power up may bring his raw strength and speed above Law, but Law is a technical fighter. Law's stats are very high, but they're just complements to him. He's smart and versatile.
He has ways of fighting for which he doesn't need the same raw strength Luffy has. That's why I could see Law keeping up with Luffy's most recent power ups.
However Luffy is the MC and the one who will beat Kaido ultimately and find Raftel and the One Piece, etc, so Law will fall behind undoubtedly.
I only quoted the relevant part but I still stand by everything else I also said on that comment about G2 and G4 Luffy on Dressrosa and Law.
We will see in future fights how everything goes. They're sure to measure themselves one way or another in future fights.
I had no doubts you'd consider Sanji stronger than Law. I'm surprised you're giving him and Kidd some chance at least for plot reasons, actually, despite the first part of your argument, in which beating Vergo somehow makes him inferior to getting broken bones against Vergo.
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As I see it people completely ignore two things.
- Law was able to keep up with Doflamingo, which is impressive by itself (even though Doflamingo wasn't using his awakening nor was 100% serious, of course, because he's an overconfident ass) and thanks to his shambles Dofly ate a good G2 punch and was afterwards pierced by Law and burned internally.
That kind of coordination and rhythm already puts Law above G2 Luffy.
- Luffy totally surpassed Doflamingo in G4, yes, but that was not Doflamingo at his best, either. It can't be used to scale the power/ability of Law during the previous clash, precisely because Doflamingo actually got a fatal blow by Law and was stitching his organs together. Even if he moved and talked naturally, getting his torso pierced and burned from the inside is more damage than any other character has survived in the series. It's almost the same kind of damage that killed Ace. There's no way he was fighting at his true full strength right after taking that.
Gear 4 is a great power up, but the opponent was nerfed. By Law. Luffy wouldn't have survived that same attack.
We don't know how much Law has grown. For all we know he could pull a power up similar to Gear 2. We also didn't see Luffy train or create that one either and he came up with it after Long Ring Long Land and before Enies Lobby, so during their short stay at Water 7.
Assuming Law hasn't grown THAT much as Luffy has, it comes back to my original comment of Luffy probably being stronger now thanks to his new haki.
The Gear 4 power up may bring his raw strength and speed above Law, but Law is a technical fighter. Law's stats are very high, but they're just complements to him. He's smart and versatile.
He has ways of fighting for which he doesn't need the same raw strength Luffy has. That's why I could see Law keeping up with Luffy's most recent power ups.
However Luffy is the MC and the one who will beat Kaido ultimately and find Raftel and the One Piece, etc, so Law will fall behind undoubtedly.
When have broken bones lead to defeat? Ask Usopp and Harjudan on their fights. You keep using debunk excuse when we talk about him and you missed my point completely while changing narrative in fights when Vergo got busted open twice and bleed in the fight. Sanji would have win the end, but it be struggle since he was readjusting back into his body. I said I can see why people say Sanji can beat Law, but I feel personally Law is stronger though. You got let go your Sanji's insecurities when someone want to praises him. Though not surprise see you around debating against the notion despite even I see Kidd and Law are stronger than him.
But... what evidence is that law in any way approached gear 4 luffy? None of the reasons you have brought up amount of law keeping up with gear 4 or being able to not get one or two shooted by it.
He certainly protects at least most of it though. Add to that, luffy currently can see into the future a bit with his observation haki. As long as luffy does not fight like a jackass even with teleporting law's chances are nearly non existent. The only reason law would even have a chance at all is because luffy tends to start fights not taking things seriously rather than because law approaches luffy in terms of strength. At the moment for law to win he'd need to get past luff's sheer speed (which back at dressrosa even with boundman alone was enough to overwhelm doflamingo), then luffy's armor haki (which has been upgraded substantially even defensively considering that this haki level allowed hyoguro to survive a big mom punch) and then luffy's ability to predict things. Law can potentially one shot most people with gama knife but it's a pretty steep hill to overcome....
Given from what we seen in Luffy being flexible now with using Gear 4th back and forth without feeling exhausted from uses, it shows now he has mastered it like how he did with Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd, so does this mean Luffy has now new powerful mode and attacks awaiting for later against Kaido? Will it be a new form of Gear 4th form with Future Sight and Adv. COA added or is it the heavy popular and theorized Gear 5th which push Luffy into another realm of power all together along with combine Future Sight and Adv. COA?
Given from what we seen in Luffy being flexible now with using Gear 4th back and forth without feeling exhausted from uses, it shows now he has mastered it like how he did with Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd, so does this mean Luffy has now new powerful mode and attacks awaiting for later against Kaido? Will it be a new form of Gear 4th form with Future Sight and Adv. COA added or is it the heavy popular and theorized Gear 5th which push Luffy into another realm of power all together along with combine Future Sight and Adv. COA?
his training is on CoA, don't see how advanced CoA will bring new form since luffy could just infuse it on the existing G4 forms
luffy needs a trick to hold kaido when he's recovering his haki from one use of G4.
In this case, this is the part where zoro comes in to fight and hold down kaido.
his training is on CoA, don't see how advanced CoA will bring new form since luffy could just infuse it on the existing G4 forms
luffy needs a trick to hold kaido when he's recovering his haki from one use of G4.
In this case, this is the part where zoro comes in to fight and hold down kaido.
Please stop bringing Zoro into stuff when he isn't in. This is about Luffy, not Zoro who can't even withstand an attack from Apoo without going on his knees, but somehow can hold back Kaido? Zoro be fodder to him if he come into range and he won't be involve in final fight meant for Luffy, not for him.
Please stop bringing Zoro into stuff when he isn't in. This is about Luffy, not Zoro who can't even withstand an attack from Apoo without going on his knees, but somehow can hold back Kaido? Zoro be fodder to him if he come into range and he won't be involve in final fight meant for Luffy, not for him.
and the same luffy who was knocked out by apoo will face kaido. Don't downplay zoro too much.
You talked about luffy "being flexible without exhaustion" and new G4 form, which i don't is coming since his training mostly just comes to use advanced CoA. Kaido is at the dome roof, i don't see luffy running away from kaido while recovering since the roof is a huge open area so kaido can easily see him. Sometimes luffy got assisted by someone else during his recovery and this is the part where zoro comes in to hold back kaido.
Given from what we seen in Luffy being flexible now with using Gear 4th back and forth without feeling exhausted from uses, it shows now he has mastered it like how he did with Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd, so does this mean Luffy has now new powerful mode and attacks awaiting for later against Kaido? Will it be a new form of Gear 4th form with Future Sight and Adv. COA added or is it the heavy popular and theorized Gear 5th which push Luffy into another realm of power all together along with combine Future Sight and Adv. COA?
No. I think Luffy might have other G4 forms that he hasn't revealed yet, but no G5. He was focused on learning Advanced CoA, I don't believe he had time to develop a G5.
Since G4 has different forms I don't believe we will ever see a G5.
No. I think Luffy might have other G4 forms that he hasn't revealed yet, but no G5. He was focused on learning Advanced CoA, I don't believe he had time to develop a G5.
Since G4 has different forms I don't believe we will ever see a G5.
That actually brings up a good point in that if Luffy can defeat (arguably) the strongest creature/pirate, whether he would need another learn another gear or simply continue improving his haki; which is currently where the series is focusing on. There is also his devil fruit awakening to consider.
That actually brings up a good point in that if Luffy can defeat (arguably) the strongest creature/pirate, whether he would need another learn another gear or simply continue improving his haki; which is currently where the series is focusing on. There is also his devil fruit awakening to consider.
I can't see him defeating Kaidou by himself but I think there is only Advanced CoC(It should exist, right?) and Awakening left for him when it comes to skills he lacks.
I can't see him defeating Kaidou by himself but I think there is only Advanced CoC(It should exist, right?) and Awakening left for him when it comes to skills he lacks.
No that's likely to team effort, between him, Kid and Law in the end. Unless Oda pulls something out. As for CoC I'm not sure, it's something that improves the stronger you become but I don't know how an advanced version would work. Did you have anything in mind about Luffy could use it?
That actually brings up a good point in that if Luffy can defeat (arguably) the strongest creature/pirate, whether he would need another learn another gear or simply continue improving his haki; which is currently where the series is focusing on. There is also his devil fruit awakening to consider.
he definitely would still need to improve his DF. Kaido isn't the strongest enemy. Oden was almost going to finish him and i am sure oden was still below PK tier.
Luffy's final enemy would be the one who pushed him to PK level (or beyond). Either it will be blackbeard, imu, or akainu.
and the same luffy who was knocked out by apoo will face kaido. Don't downplay zoro too much.
You talked about luffy "being flexible without exhaustion" and new G4 form, which i don't is coming since his training mostly just comes to use advanced CoA. Kaido is at the dome roof, i don't see luffy running away from kaido while recovering since the roof is a huge open area so kaido can easily see him. Sometimes luffy got assisted by someone else during his recovery and this is the part where zoro comes in to hold back kaido.
Luffy bounce back better than Zoro fainting down from Kamazou who he was best rest for few days from his attack. He is Rubber Man, he can tank damage better than Zoro who choose to run away from Apoo the moment he comes attacking him. If Zoro can't not even face Apoo to get payback and was on his knees from his attack, imagine Kaido with using his club to break his swords and sending him flying to the sky? Zoro is not going to do anything to Kaido especially solo fight as he isn't anything near his level. Plus Zoro doesn't fight his main fights for him as Oda likes keeping Luffy one to deal major blow and defeat of major antagonist, not someone who is his subordinate to do it for him.
Zoro will be facing his own problems and how he help out taking other enemies, but Kaido is not his direction at all, so please stop pushing him on same level he can do like Luffy or better when he shown nothing of that state.
That actually brings up a good point in that if Luffy can defeat (arguably) the strongest creature/pirate, whether he would need another learn another gear or simply continue improving his haki; which is currently where the series is focusing on. There is also his devil fruit awakening to consider.
Oh yeah I forgot about his Awakening side of DF. Add that to his power, he be much stronger than before. Do you guys think he will unlock it in this fight or will it be later on after this arc?
No that's likely to team effort, between him, Kid and Law in the end. Unless Oda pulls something out. As for CoC I'm not sure, it's something that improves the stronger you become but I don't know how an advanced version would work. Did you have anything in mind about Luffy could use it?
he definitely would still need to improve his DF. Kaido isn't the strongest enemy. Oden was almost going to finish him and i am sure oden was still below PK tier.
Luffy's final enemy would be the one who pushed him to PK level (or beyond). Either it will be blackbeard, imu, or akainu.
Just did a quick Google search to find out that Kaido might be around 50. 20 years ago he was 30 years old. If you look at all strong guys out there, most of them are in their 50s. Admirals (Aokiji 49), Roger (53), etc. There are exceptions such as Shanks (39), Mihawk (43) and BB (40). However Shanks only became an Emperor like 6 years prior to the current story line. So Shanks wasn't Yonko tier at the age of 30.
Only something to glance at and find interesting. Nothing to debate about.
Luffy bounce back better than Zoro fainting down from Kamazou who he was best rest for few days from his attack. He is Rubber Man, he can tank damage better than Zoro who choose to run away from Apoo the moment he comes attacking him. If Zoro can't not even face Apoo to get payback and was on his knees from his attack, imagine Kaido with using his club to break his swords and sending him flying to the sky? Zoro is not going to do anything to Kaido especially solo fight as he isn't anything near his level. Plus Zoro doesn't fight his main fights for him as Oda likes keeping Luffy one to deal major blow and defeat of major antagonist, not someone who is his subordinate to do it for him.
Zoro will be facing his own problems and how he help out taking other enemies, but Kaido is not his direction at all, so please stop pushing him on same level he can do like Luffy or better when he shown nothing of that state.
this topic is about luffy, not zoro. Stop bashing at zoro over anything.
Not to mention luffy was the one who passed out against apoo. My point here is that zoro would assist luffy to fight kaido because luffy still has his G4 exhaustion issue and needs someone else to cover for him when he's regaining his haki. Unless you want to see luffy running away from kaido throughout the fight, which is pretty anticlimatic tbh
this topic is about luffy, not zoro. Stop bashing at zoro over anything.
Not to mention luffy was the one who passed out against apoo. My point here is that zoro would assist luffy to fight kaido because luffy still has his G4 exhaustion issue and needs someone else to cover for him when he's regaining his haki. Unless you want to see luffy running away from kaido throughout the fight, which is pretty anticlimatic tbh
Your the one bringing him up when we suppose to talk about Luffy. Get Zoro of the brain to bring him into every conversation and talk about character other than him for once. Zoro isn't doing anything to be involve in Luffy's fights of major antagonists. Oda push Luffy to be the one to fight his own battles, Zoro won't be involve as Luffy want to face Kaido himself as stated many times.
We have many people doing that to fight Kaido than Zoro who be busy dealing with enemies already stopping him in tracks as shown early like Gifters and Queen, so no way he will be fine in fighting Kaido later even you want to push him into it as that be impossible for his body to handle such a beating to still face him. Luffy will have his cover with Kidd, Law, Scabbards, and more in helping him, but nothing it has to do with Zoro at all no matter how you try to push it.
Only illogical is you somehow pushing Zoro in conversation when Luffy is the one made for to fight Kaido and be major obstacle to his defeat, nothing to do with Zoro at all. Let it go and talk about only Luffy, not force insert a character who doesn't have business in the fight with Kaido as personal as Luffy does with him.
