1. yeah i am not buying that mate. no one mentioned that natsu has dramatically increased in power after phantom arc. his development was normal.
natsu => gray (lullyby arc)
natsu => gray (heaven arc)
2. because he was strong, and they were weak and injured.
3. exactly, as i said feats > statement in my arguments at this moment. i am already saying gajeel>=aria, i think that is reasonable (so basically you are blowing a hole through my logic by a statement nothing more, aria is not weaker than gajeel on purely feat bases). that makes no sense, are you implying edolas arc pantherlily= edolas arc gajeel>azuma or something?
4. Ameterasu was the only impressive thing laxus did. ok ok, what was the starting distance when laxus vs hades was about to begin, what was the starting distance fairy tail team vs hades begin. did both land hits, or only laxus did? did laxus hit after hades recovered from the initial hit or was still reeling from the first hit (not including Ameterasu tank)
5. thats the point, you cant say one guy who just had near death experience is 100% and then say the other guy (who mind you was tiers above his opponents) was somehow not 100% in hp
6. sadly no. erza was there, gray wasnt gonna make a comment when she is there. later he would say she probably already had SO
7. ok so show me a panel where gildarts is dieing and accepting his death, or atleast show me a panel where he is knocked out or something
1. No one except Happy and Erza, then there is him keeping up with Gajeel against Laxus, and we know Gajeel is stronger than Aria.
As for Natsu>=Gray in Lullaby or whatever, not really, Gray was stronger than Natsu after the Lyon arc, Lyon wrecked Natsu's ass worse than Aria, in fact he soloed Gray and Natsu at the same time, low diff, Gray rose above, just like Natsu rose above Aria to defeat his superior, Gajeel.
2. Natsu and Lucy were in tip top shape, Gray and Erza were speed enhanced by Wendy
3. Yeah, I am blowing a hole in your argument with a statement, I don't need anything more. Aria doesn't have any feats that surpass Gajeel, they're less impressive than Lyons.
I didn't say Pantherlily or Gajeel were stronger than Azuma, I simply said Pantherlily after coming to Earthland was clearly and intentionally nerfed.
4. The whole fight was impressive, that's why everyone was amazed, but sure, Amaterasu was the blitz. As for Team Natsu, they landed hits, with their numbers, and with a Hades that was trying less, sure.
5. You can if there's an interval between the fights, especially with a healer in the party. Besides, like I said, i can buy them running out of steam faster, but their stats should be fine, Gray and Erza said they were going at it full power. It's not like I think Laxus hit any less hard after he used Fairy Law, or that Erza's speed went down after tanking Terra Clamore and having death thoughts.
6. And? Laxus was likened to Gildarts, Erza wasn't. Gray thinking she might already have SO doesn't put her on that tier, he didn't even think that because of her strength, he thought it because she wasn't in pain.
7. Why would I show you a panel of that? Not everyone thinks those kind of thoughts in battle, the very fact that Gildarts couldn't move confirms that he was more injured. If he wasn't more injured why didn't he join them against Hades?
1. No one except Happy and Erza, then there is him keeping up with Gajeel against Laxus, and we know Gajeel is stronger than Aria.
As for Natsu>=Gray in Lullaby or whatever, not really, Gray was stronger than Natsu after the Lyon arc, Lyon wrecked Natsu's ass worse than Aria, in fact he soloed Gray and Natsu at the same time, low diff, Gray rose above, just like Natsu rose above Aria to defeat his superior, Gajeel.
2. Natsu and Lucy were in tip top shape, Gray and Erza were speed enhanced by Wendy
3. Yeah, I am blowing a hole in your argument with a statement, I don't need anything more. Aria doesn't have any feats that surpass Gajeel, they're less impressive than Lyons.
I didn't say Pantherlily or Gajeel were stronger than Azuma, I simply said Pantherlily after coming to Earthland was clearly and intentionally nerfed.
4. The whole fight was impressive, that's why everyone was amazed, but sure, Amaterasu was the blitz. As for Team Natsu, they landed hits, with their numbers, and with a Hades that was trying less, sure.
5. You can if there's an interval between the fights, especially with a healer in the party. Besides, like I said, i can buy them running out of steam faster, but their stats should be fine, Gray and Erza said they were going at it full power. It's not like I think Laxus hit any less hard after he used Fairy Law, or that Erza's speed went down after tanking Terra Clamore and having death thoughts.
6. And? Laxus was likened to Gildarts, Erza wasn't. Gray thinking she might already have SO doesn't put her on that tier, he didn't even think that because of her strength, he thought it because she wasn't in pain.
7. Why would I show you a panel of that? Not everyone thinks those kind of thoughts in battle, the very fact that Gildarts couldn't move confirms that he was more injured. If he wasn't more injured why didn't he join them against Hades?
1. so basically a statement. i dont know about lyon. will have to check
2. i dont anyone was in tip top shape. gray nearly fell unconscious five seconds ago, erza was staggering little before that.
3. exactly, with one random statement, i really cant do anything. without that staetement, aria feats are tiers above gajeel
4. pantherlily got wendy and mest to help him. he didnt care about time till he was in similiar condition gajeel was after gajeel took that roar
5. i remember healer herself was tired. and wendy did not heal erza nor gray, as far as i remember. yes, they were going at what power they had. what do you mean, after fighting azuma, she was having problem walking, you think her speed didnt go down. so laxus was near 100% hp when natsu one shotted him in ff arc?
6. whole fight wast impressive, it lasted five seconds. laxus tanking that threw hades and erza in awe. barely a blitz to categorize speed
7. which tier, laxus was not on gildarts tier. gray said it because she showed no pain and she is fuking too powerful, that is why he used to tell natsu he will die if he fights erza
8. well i guess since you want to use hades fight to compare erza and laxus, we can say erza was straight up gildarts superior in endurance and stemina. or plot. point is gildarts cant move and you want to compare this erza with laxus. gildarts wasnt knocked out like erza was, gildarts wasnt near death like erza was, hell i am pretty sure erza had more bandages than gildarts at the end too. but no we are to assume this erza is near 100%. but laxus who basically beat up natsu and gajeel wasnt near 100% when he lost to natsu. sorry mate
1. so basically a statement. i dont know about lyon. will have to check
2. i dont anyone was in tip top shape. gray nearly fell unconscious five seconds ago, erza was staggering little before that.
3. exactly, with one random statement, i really cant do anything. without that staetement, aria feats are tiers above gajeel
4. pantherlily got wendy and mest to help him. he didnt care about time till he was in similiar condition gajeel was after gajeel took that roar
5. i remember healer herself was tired. and wendy did not heal erza nor gray, as far as i remember. yes, they were going at what power they had. what do you mean, after fighting azuma, she was having problem walking, you think her speed didnt go down. so laxus was near 100% hp when natsu one shotted him in ff arc?
6. whole fight wast impressive, it lasted five seconds. laxus tanking that threw hades and erza in awe. barely a blitz to categorize speed
7. which tier, laxus was not on gildarts tier. gray said it because she showed no pain and she is fuking too powerful, that is why he used to tell natsu he will die if he fights erza
8. well i guess since you want to use hades fight to compare erza and laxus, we can say erza was straight up gildarts superior in endurance and stemina. or plot. point is gildarts cant move and you want to compare this erza with laxus. gildarts wasnt knocked out like erza was, gildarts wasnt near death like erza was, hell i am pretty sure erza had more bandages than gildarts at the end too. but no we are to assume this erza is near 100%. but laxus who basically beat up natsu and gajeel wasnt near 100% when he lost to natsu. sorry mate
2. Lucy said her magic had recovered, and she actually fully ran out in her fight with Kain, she couldn't use her spirits. Natsu's last fight was Kain as well, so tip top shape is pretty accurate. As for Gray falling over, notice he didn't do that against Hades, he was standing tall. Like I said, intervals matter.
3. It's not one random statement, it's a direct statement telling the readers who Phantom's strongest was, Gajeel had all the hype, literally anyone watching the series could tell he was Phantoms strongest, and I think you know this as well. As for Aria's feats, he has none above Gajeel's, he has none above Lyons, he simply beat an inferior Natsu.
4. Mest and Wendy were oneshot before they could land a single attack, and Wendy's enchantments didn't buff Pantherlily's defense. Pantherlily caring about time at that point is basically confirmation he could have kept fighting with his full strength, no other reason to set up that weakness.
5. Yeah, and after going at it full power they were still standing, which means they could still go full power and have magic to spare afterwards.
It's simple, intervals between fights matter. Natsu, after getting trashed by Aria, went on to fight and defeat someone stronger. Gray after getting beaten by Lyon, and not just trashed like Erza vs Azuma, actually fully losing the fight, still was able to get up and beat Lyon. Same with Natsu, after losing to Torafuzar, went on to fight Mard Geer. Gray, after getting trashed by Silver went on to fight Mard Geer. Do you see anyone talking about how injured Gray and Natsu were when they fought Mard? Not really, and nor should they be. Honestly even me saying Team Natsu would have lasted longer against Hades is pushing it, they might not have, just like Gray and Natsu probably wouldn't have done any better against Mard if they were in tip top shape when they entered the fight.
6. Huh? Gray said Natsu shouldnt fight her preskip, and even then there were people betting on him. Laxus being likened to Gildarts as a cut above the rest puts him... well, a cut above the rest. Then there is the whole thing of Mashima leaning even deeper into that hype by having him defeat Jura, a character also likened to Gildarts, as well as stating Laxus is too difficult to write into battles.
7. Why would we say that? Gildarts fought someone stronger under infinitely worse circumstances. You can say Erza recovers faster if you like, you'd expect that of youth.
2. Lucy said her magic had recovered, and she actually fully ran out in her fight with Kain, she couldn't use her spirits. Natsu's last fight was Kain as well, so tip top shape is pretty accurate. As for Gray falling over, notice he didn't do that against Hades, he was standing tall. Like I said, intervals matter.
3. It's not one random statement, it's a direct statement telling the readers who Phantom's strongest was, Gajeel had all the hype, literally anyone watching the series could tell he was Phantoms strongest, and I think you know this as well. As for Aria's feats, he has none above Gajeel's, he has none above Lyons, he simply beat an inferior Natsu.
4. Mest and Wendy were oneshot before they could land a single attack, and Wendy's enchantments didn't buff Pantherlily's defense. Pantherlily caring about time at that point is basically confirmation he could have kept fighting with his full strength, no other reason to set up that weakness.
5. Yeah, and after going at it full power they were still standing, which means they could still go full power and have magic to spare afterwards.
It's simple, intervals between fights matter. Natsu, after getting trashed by Aria, went on to fight and defeat someone stronger. Gray after getting beaten by Lyon, and not just trashed like Erza vs Azuma, actually fully losing the fight, still was able to get up and beat Lyon. Same with Natsu, after losing to Torafuzar, went on to fight Mard Geer. Gray, after getting trashed by Silver went on to fight Mard Geer. Do you see anyone talking about how injured Gray and Natsu were when they fought Mard? Not really, and nor should they be. Honestly even me saying Team Natsu would have lasted longer against Hades is pushing it, they might not have, just like Gray and Natsu probably wouldn't have done any better against Mard if they were in tip top shape when they entered the fight.
6. Huh? Gray said Natsu shouldnt fight her preskip, and even then there were people betting on him. Laxus being likened to Gildarts as a cut above the rest puts him... well, a cut above the rest. Then there is the whole thing of Mashima leaning even deeper into that hype by having him defeat Jura, a character also likened to Gildarts, as well as stating Laxus is too difficult to write into battles.
7. Why would we say that? Gildarts fought someone stronger under infinitely worse circumstances. You can say Erza recovers faster if you like, you'd expect that of youth.
1. chapter 29 and 30. lyon insta freeze natsu, or what ever that ball thingy is because natsu jumped carelessly. will never happen again. gray even didn lose that badly. gray was talking, lyon got pissed and did the final move while gray was still talking. nothing like aria sorry.
2. gajeel didnt have all the hype. he was biggest punk, who did the most outrageous things. that is why jose liked him so much. saying gajeel is more powerful than aria after aria is beaten doesnt matter much. saying gajeel>=aria is fine. wrecked erza can one shot aria with blumblatt. full fresh erza can kill gajeel with purgatory.
4. but it still what you call it pantherlily + mest + wendy tier. then why was he lying on his face while he said it. why was he keeping distance from azuma during battle.
5. going full power of the power they had. somewhere maybe around 20% mp
not good example. team fights are not judge of power in fairy tail. against aconologia laxus looked like cobra tier. natsu and wendy were the only big guys here. same against hades, erza looked lucy tier. only natsu shines, against mard gray got something.
6. no one likened laxus to gildarts. no one thought laxus was cut above the rest. gray was gonna teach laxus a lesson in ff arc. doesnt matter, minerva also thought she could handle erza and kagura at the same time, she pretty much thought herself as jura tier. yes it is difficult to write laxus, he is erza tier but with very little panels. mishma had to show he was above natsu, never above erza. if hwanted, mishma could have shown that in ff arc where they actually fought
7. bluenote being stronger shouldnt even be considered if he didnt use any big attacks. not one nuke from bluenote. just some kicks, wouldt even take out gray like that. i could just make a case that gildarts wont be able to put erza down before she recovers (deadpool style)
1. chapter 29 and 30. lyon insta freeze natsu, or what ever that ball thingy is because natsu jumped carelessly. will never happen again. gray even didn lose that badly. gray was talking, lyon got pissed and did the final move while gray was still talking. nothing like aria sorry.
2. gajeel didnt have all the hype. he was biggest punk, who did the most outrageous things. that is why jose liked him so much. saying gajeel is more powerful than aria after aria is beaten doesnt matter much. saying gajeel>=aria is fine. wrecked erza can one shot aria with blumblatt. full fresh erza can kill gajeel with purgatory.
4. but it still what you call it pantherlily + mest + wendy tier. then why was he lying on his face while he said it. why was he keeping distance from azuma during battle.
5. going full power of the power they had. somewhere maybe around 20% mp
not good example. team fights are not judge of power in fairy tail. against aconologia laxus looked like cobra tier. natsu and wendy were the only big guys here. same against hades, erza looked lucy tier. only natsu shines, against mard gray got something.
6. no one likened laxus to gildarts. no one thought laxus was cut above the rest. gray was gonna teach laxus a lesson in ff arc. doesnt matter, minerva also thought she could handle erza and kagura at the same time, she pretty much thought herself as jura tier. yes it is difficult to write laxus, he is erza tier but with very little panels. mishma had to show he was above natsu, never above erza. if hwanted, mishma could have shown that in ff arc where they actually fought
7. bluenote being stronger shouldnt even be considered if he didnt use any big attacks. not one nuke from bluenote. just some kicks, wouldt even take out gray like that. i could just make a case that gildarts wont be able to put erza down before she recovers (deadpool style)
1. Sure, and what Aria did won't happen again either. What are you talking about? Lyon absolutely annihilated Gray, he didn't have a scratch on him by the end of the fight. he completely overwhelmed Gray. Even ignoring the fact that Lyon beat Natsu too, Lyon trashed Gray at least as hard as Aria trashed Natsu. Lyon low diffed the both of them, his feats are objectively better than Aria's.
2. No, he was the most powerful member, as stated in the manga. It's not Gajeel>=Aria, it's Gajeel>Aria. And no, Erza's not oneshotting with Purgatory.
3. Yep, you can call it that if you like. What do you mean why was he lying on his face? Why was Erza lying on her face? They got hit by attacks, happens literally all the time
4. Going full power with %20 MP is the same as going full power with %100 MP, the only difference is you can only keep it up for a fifth of the time.
Haha, so now it's team battles are the reason? No, it's a perfectly good example, trashed team Natsu vs Hades is the same as trashed Natsu/Gray vs Mard.
5. Uh, yes they did? Gray likened him to Gildarts. Then Makarov likened Jura to Gildarts and had Laxus defeat him, not to mention the whole "too powerful for the story" thing, the implication is clear.
6. Course it should, Gildarts without magic is below Gray. You can make any case you want, but we both know Gildarts wins any day.
1. Sure, and what Aria did won't happen again either. What are you talking about? Lyon absolutely annihilated Gray, he didn't have a scratch on him by the end of the fight. he completely overwhelmed Gray. Even ignoring the fact that Lyon beat Natsu too, Lyon trashed Gray at least as hard as Aria trashed Natsu. Lyon low diffed the both of them, his feats are objectively better than Aria's.
2. No, he was the most powerful member, as stated in the manga. It's not Gajeel>=Aria, it's Gajeel>Aria. And no, Erza's not oneshotting with Purgatory.
3. Yep, you can call it that if you like. What do you mean why was he lying on his face? Why was Erza lying on her face? They got hit by attacks, happens literally all the time
4. Going full power with %20 MP is the same as going full power with %100 MP, the only difference is you can only keep it up for a fifth of the time.
Haha, so now it's team battles are the reason? No, it's a perfectly good example, trashed team Natsu vs Hades is the same as trashed Natsu/Gray vs Mard.
5. Uh, yes they did? Gray likened him to Gildarts. Then Makarov likened Jura to Gildarts and had Laxus defeat him, not to mention the whole "too powerful for the story" thing, the implication is clear.
6. Course it should, Gildarts without magic is below Gray. You can make any case you want, but we both know Gildarts wins any day.
1. nope. if you want to talk nonsense we can stop here. lyon took out natsu like silver did. or invel did. gray was more busy taking to lyon than fighting. natsu could do nothing agaisnt aria.
2. no he wasnt. only thing stated was s class phantom equal to s class fairy tail aka juvia = laxus. aria feats are better. natsu was running low on fuel against gajeel as well. juvia held up grey, aria low diffed natsu. gajeel if stronger would be barely stronger. again stop bsing. why cant erza not shot with purgatory. this one statement. and you go complete insane.
3. just like serena lied face down. pretty sure that how wrecked is showed. so you are saying gajeel was just chilling after the lightening roar
4. fairy tail team battle like that. we dont know what it means
5. the implication was pretty clear when laxus did nothing against erza. or when lucy showed us the ranking of fairy members which showed who was clear cut above whom
6. so gildarts wasnt fighting superior opponent?
lets stop all this
lyon was superior to grey but not by that much. gray was more interesting in talking than fighting in the first round. especially near the last hit
jose was proud of gajeel, who was a big punk compared to the cry baby aria. but aria feats remain impressive. gajeel could be stronger than aria but the gap you are making is completely out of nowhere. remember aria remained down for a long time, till gajeel wasnt taken out. meanwhile laxus roar didnt keep gajeel down for that long. we cannot be precise, blumblatt around lightening roar is not that bad. i know it goes against one of your basic beliefs system, but seriously. erza has plenty of things above blumblat while all laxus got is halbert or law.
laxus wasnt impressive against hades, he got hit in because he was standing close to hades, after hades started to fight, he only surprised him once. so stop acting like that is awesome thing ever.
there is nothing wrong with my logic
natsu=gajeel=pantherlily=aria
GC=lightening roar=tower brust=blumblatt
if you dont like erza being that up with blumblatt, swap it with purgatory, erza still has got armudura and benzikura. both alot above laxus halbert. erza still have defensive magic, laxus has zero. laxus speed isnt gonna do anything against erza
all erza opponents are above natsu. you keeping on talking about one or two stating that shows laxus above erza, while there are what 10 or even more about erza above natsu which you like to ignore.
if you dont like all that
erza jellal and jura are all around 10WS tier pre ts, laxus was maybe here too
s class monster was also here too
time skip will give them equal boost
or who was the leader on the last day of gmg. if laxus was clear superior than he should have been, nothing was mentioned. though erza acted like she was the leader against sting. in non cannon ost, did erza get MVP award or something
1. No ones forcing you to continue, stop when you like. As for Gray, people talk in fights all the time, he lost, the same way Natsu lost, just worse.
2. Your argument is literally you telling me that listening to the manga is insane lol. Face it, Jose told us Gajeel is stronger, its just the way it is.
3. No, I'm simply saying the reason Lily couldn't fight anymore was because he was out of time.... because again, that's what the manga said.
4. Sure we do, just like we know 7DS Natsu is stronger than the Dragon Slayers because he performed better.
5. Nah, Laxus beating the character that was likened to Gildarts/Mira+Erza combined is kind of the opposite of "never above Erza"
6. Superior to who? Azuma? Sure.
7. What do you mean not that much? Lyon wrecked Gray's ass in every sense of the word, as badly as Aria did Natsu, it was not even a challenge
8. Blumenbatt being Roar tier doesn't go against my belief system, it doesn't really matter. Erza having several upper tier attacks also doesn't really matter to me either. At the end of the day having 10 top tier spells doesn't benefit you more than having 1, unless they break like Erza's, Laxus can always just throw another Halberd, Jellal can always just cast another Sema. Oh and Purgatory/Armadura don't have any feats above Laxus.
9. Yeah, that standing close argument of your is pretty meaningless too, %90 of fights in FT are CQC.
10. Huh? I don't ignore the statements of Erza being above Natsu, I believe them, she's above him, just like I believe Laxus is above Erza,
11. Hm? Sure, she's 10 WS tier, of course there are literally 10 tiers within 10 WS tier lol.
1. No ones forcing you to continue, stop when you like. As for Gray, people talk in fights all the time, he lost, the same way Natsu lost, just worse.
2. Your argument is literally you telling me that listening to the manga is insane lol. Face it, Jose told us Gajeel is stronger, its just the way it is.
3. No, I'm simply saying the reason Lily couldn't fight anymore was because he was out of time.... because again, that's what the manga said.
4. Sure we do, just like we know 7DS Natsu is stronger than the Dragon Slayers because he performed better.
5. Nah, Laxus beating the character that was likened to Gildarts/Mira+Erza combined is kind of the opposite of "never above Erza"
6. Superior to who? Azuma? Sure.
7. What do you mean not that much? Lyon wrecked Gray's ass in every sense of the word, as badly as Aria did Natsu, it was not even a challenge
8. Blumenbatt being Roar tier doesn't go against my belief system, it doesn't really matter. Erza having several upper tier attacks also doesn't really matter to me either. At the end of the day having 10 top tier spells doesn't benefit you more than having 1, unless they break like Erza's, Laxus can always just throw another Halberd, Jellal can always just cast another Sema. Oh and Purgatory/Armadura don't have any feats above Laxus.
9. Yeah, that standing close argument of your is pretty meaningless too, %90 of fights in FT are CQC.
10. Huh? I don't ignore the statements of Erza being above Natsu, I believe them, she's above him, just like I believe Laxus is above Erza,
11. Hm? Sure, she's 10 WS tier, of course there are literally 10 tiers within 10 WS tier lol.
1. i stop enjoying it when you start trolling. saying aria could never do to natsu again what lyon did is trolling. because natsu lost to lyon because of hax, or being unaware. he lost to aria, because he was no match. yes, he could, if natsu, get a boost like df level jump (being low diffed by binded aria and then beating someoene apparently teirs above), that is definition of trolling.
if we look at lyon vs gray, lyon first hit was good, his second hit happened because gray forgot about lyon magic. and the last two moves i believe gray was more interested in talking about Ur and deliora and the fighting. the finishing move lyon used, gray was, literally standing and talking, he was doing nothing to protect himself.
even if we assume, gray lost to lyon like natsu lost to binded arai. we still have the fact that aria wasnt using his full powers, and your claim is that, an attack which put down not binded aria (lyon) but full powered aria down for duration of natsu vs gajeel + jose vs marakarov, will not one shot natsu (gray).
2. nope, as i said gajeel>=aria, you just want it to be gajeel>>>>aria. me saying an attack which one shots aria will do number on gajeel too. you are saying, even more powerful attack aint to doing sh!t to gajeel. baisically ignoring everything, like gray and natsu are around each other (gray got held up by juvia). you want to say there is teirs of different between aria and gajeel. just because jose liked gajeel. that is one statement vs huge portion of the manga
3. that is not what the manga said. the manga showed pantherlily wrecked, with one small mention of time. are saying pantherlily was in perfect condition after tower brust.
4. dont know what this point is refering to.
5. erza beating kagura and minerva meant the same thing. but you treated them differemntly. you move laxus up to jura hype, and you moved kagura and mivera down to erza hype. thus to you jura> kagura+minerva + kagura + minerva. pretty much forgetting that kagura and minerva both were hyped to be above or around erza.
6. you were saying gildarts was fighting a superior opponent. but that opponent was just causally kicking, so that was what i was talking about
7. nope. even if i agree with you. are saying an attack that one shots lyon wont do anything to gray?
8. ok, laxus raging bolt, roar nor heaven halber has feats above erza.
9. it throws your speed thing out. hades was allowing people to hit him. i think even natsu got him in his initial charge, from across the hall. other laxus hits happened when hades hadnt recovered from the first hit. laxus had nothing good in that fight other than tanking that 25 formula thing
10. yes you do. we have seen erza one shot natsu many times, you dont see this as a portaryal of erza being alot above natsu. but one two statements about laxus, and you believe he is cut above the rest.
11. ok
s class monter was in pre ts jura and pre ts erza tier. why would jura improve more than erza in the first time skip. why would jura improve more than jellal (who had access to SO plus some years of experience) in the first time skip. why werent we made aware that laxus was the team leader of fairy tail, like we knew jura was, kagura was?
1. i stop enjoying it when you start trolling. saying aria could never do to natsu again what lyon did is trolling. because natsu lost to lyon because of hax, or being unaware. he lost to aria, because he was no match. yes, he could, if natsu, get a boost like df level jump (being low diffed by binded aria and then beating someoene apparently teirs above), that is definition of trolling.
if we look at lyon vs gray, lyon first hit was good, his second hit happened because gray forgot about lyon magic. and the last two moves i believe gray was more interested in talking about Ur and deliora and the fighting. the finishing move lyon used, gray was, literally standing and talking, he was doing nothing to protect himself.
even if we assume, gray lost to lyon like natsu lost to binded arai. we still have the fact that aria wasnt using his full powers, and your claim is that, an attack which put down not binded aria (lyon) but full powered aria down for duration of natsu vs gajeel + jose vs marakarov, will not one shot natsu (gray).
2. nope, as i said gajeel>=aria, you just want it to be gajeel>>>>aria. me saying an attack which one shots aria will do number on gajeel too. you are saying, even more powerful attack aint to doing sh!t to gajeel. baisically ignoring everything, like gray and natsu are around each other (gray got held up by juvia). you want to say there is teirs of different between aria and gajeel. just because jose liked gajeel. that is one statement vs huge portion of the manga
3. that is not what the manga said. the manga showed pantherlily wrecked, with one small mention of time. are saying pantherlily was in perfect condition after tower brust.
4. dont know what this point is refering to.
5. erza beating kagura and minerva meant the same thing. but you treated them differemntly. you move laxus up to jura hype, and you moved kagura and mivera down to erza hype. thus to you jura> kagura+minerva + kagura + minerva. pretty much forgetting that kagura and minerva both were hyped to be above or around erza.
6. you were saying gildarts was fighting a superior opponent. but that opponent was just causally kicking, so that was what i was talking about
7. nope. even if i agree with you. are saying an attack that one shots lyon wont do anything to gray?
8. ok, laxus raging bolt, roar nor heaven halber has feats above erza.
9. it throws your speed thing out. hades was allowing people to hit him. i think even natsu got him in his initial charge, from across the hall. other laxus hits happened when hades hadnt recovered from the first hit. laxus had nothing good in that fight other than tanking that 25 formula thing
10. yes you do. we have seen erza one shot natsu many times, you dont see this as a portaryal of erza being alot above natsu. but one two statements about laxus, and you believe he is cut above the rest.
11. ok
s class monter was in pre ts jura and pre ts erza tier. why would jura improve more than erza in the first time skip. why would jura improve more than jellal (who had access to SO plus some years of experience) in the first time skip. why werent we made aware that laxus was the team leader of fairy tail, like we knew jura was, kagura was?
1. Ha, as if Gray's words somehow limited his fighting ability, you realize Lyon was talking just as much if not more? And despite his "talking" Gray tried attacking Lyon, he tried defending against Lyon, he was overwhelmed on both accounts effortlessly, it was a stomp. Lyon low diffed Gray & Natsu
As for trolling, all i did was make an arbitrary claim with no evidence, exactly the same way you did, so if you felt trolled it's your own fault.
2. Jose said Gajeel was Phantom Lords strongest, not seeing where your argument comes from. As for why Gajeel is tanking purgatory, he's a stronger fighter with more powerful defense. He doesn't need to be tiers above to tank it, he just has to be above.
3. Yes, and the fact that he mentioned it means that's the reason, it's like pretending Marin didn't make a difference against Ajeel. Why would I say Pantherlily was in perfect condition? Where exactly did I even imply that?
4. Don't worry about it then
5. No it isn't, soloing Kagura and Minerva at the same time would be doing the same thing, that's not what Erza did.
6. Oh, Bluenote is stronger than no magic Gildarts, leagues stronger.
7. It'd hurt Gray, wouldn't beat him though.
8. Never said they were.
9. No it doesn't, %90 of the manga is CQC, being able to hit's someone when they're right in front of you is kinda what speed is all about
10. Huh? I literally told you I think Erza is stronger. On the contrary it's you who believe Erza's hype above Natsu but ignore Laxus' hype above her.
11. Because he improved more than every other normal wizard saint above him? Mashima wanted Jura strong. Because no member of FT was defeated
1. Ha, as if Gray's words somehow limited his fighting ability, you realize Lyon was talking just as much if not more? And despite his "talking" Gray tried attacking Lyon, he tried defending against Lyon, he was overwhelmed on both accounts effortlessly, it was a stomp. Lyon low diffed Gray & Natsu
As for trolling, all i did was make an arbitrary claim with no evidence, exactly the same way you did, so if you felt trolled it's your own fault.
2. Jose said Gajeel was Phantom Lords strongest, not seeing where your argument comes from. As for why Gajeel is tanking purgatory, he's a stronger fighter with more powerful defense. He doesn't need to be tiers above to tank it, he just has to be above.
3. Yes, and the fact that he mentioned it means that's the reason, it's like pretending Marin didn't make a difference against Ajeel. Why would I say Pantherlily was in perfect condition? Where exactly did I even imply that?
4. Don't worry about it then
5. No it isn't, soloing Kagura and Minerva at the same time would be doing the same thing, that's not what Erza did.
6. Oh, Bluenote is stronger than no magic Gildarts, leagues stronger.
7. It'd hurt Gray, wouldn't beat him though.
8. Never said they were.
9. No it doesn't, %90 of the manga is CQC, being able to hit's someone when they're right in front of you is kinda what speed is all about
10. Huh? I literally told you I think Erza is stronger. On the contrary it's you who believe Erza's hype above Natsu but ignore Laxus' hype above her.
11. Because he improved more than every other normal wizard saint above him? Mashima wanted Jura strong. Because no member of FT was defeated
1. i try to not make arbitary statements, i can always explain most of my statements. except gray was only talking, while lyon was attacking and talking. but i will still give you this point. that lyon was as above gray as blinded aria was above natsu.
2. so after aria was out, jose said gajeel is phantom strongest, so that is gajeel>=aria. what do you mean, aria was out for natsu vs gajeel + marakrov vs jose. and you think gajeel defense is that better. how are you getting to this point.
and didnt you say my logic was wrong because aria is alot weaker than gajeel. i am not sure where we are now in blumblatt vs lightening roar topic
3. ok ok. but him beeing wrecked is also a reason or no. i mean we could have had a panel where pantherlily turn into a cat while flying instead. so was time the most important thing we should focus on
4.
5. agreed. but it pre ts erza which took out kagura (while getting portrayal like jupiter tier attack and moving faster than markarov can follow). she got injury for saving kagura, then SO erza pretty much one shot minerva
6. oh, you are comparing bluenote to magicless gildarts. i still dont see how gildarts is more injured if its erza who got knocked out and its erza who was about to die. pretty sure only reason erza was fighting and gildarts wasnt is because she is one of the main.
7. why? you say lyon>gray. yet an attack that takes out lyon wont take out gray.
8. that is a point. pre ts erza had opponents like tenrou azuma, WS tier monster plus 99 more, and kagura. she just have better feats (even if its only because of having more panels).
9. 90% of the manga is not about people allowing you to hit them, like hades was doing in the start
10. laxus hype above erza is one two lines, and never confirmed. erza hype above natsu is like entire pre ts, with alot of confirmations.
so if you say something like
laxus>=erza>>natsu
i wouldnt have a problem. infact that what i concluded in my initial post of this thread
11. others dont improve. infact good guys improve the most. laxus most likely improved as much as jura (same for erza and jellal). so, could have still told us laxus was the leader (if he was cut above erza). at the end, erza looked like the leader (against sting)
1. i try to not make arbitary statements, i can always explain most of my statements. except gray was only talking, while lyon was attacking and talking. but i will still give you this point. that lyon was as above gray as blinded aria was above natsu.
2. so after aria was out, jose said gajeel is phantom strongest, so that is gajeel>=aria. what do you mean, aria was out for natsu vs gajeel + marakrov vs jose. and you think gajeel defense is that better. how are you getting to this point.
and didnt you say my logic was wrong because aria is alot weaker than gajeel. i am not sure where we are now in blumblatt vs lightening roar topic
3. ok ok. but him beeing wrecked is also a reason or no. i mean we could have had a panel where pantherlily turn into a cat while flying instead. so was time the most important thing we should focus on
4.
5. agreed. but it pre ts erza which took out kagura (while getting portrayal like jupiter tier attack and moving faster than markarov can follow). she got injury for saving kagura, then SO erza pretty much one shot minerva
6. oh, you are comparing bluenote to magicless gildarts. i still dont see how gildarts is more injured if its erza who got knocked out and its erza who was about to die. pretty sure only reason erza was fighting and gildarts wasnt is because she is one of the main.
7. why? you say lyon>gray. yet an attack that takes out lyon wont take out gray.
8. that is a point. pre ts erza had opponents like tenrou azuma, WS tier monster plus 99 more, and kagura. she just have better feats (even if its only because of having more panels).
9. 90% of the manga is not about people allowing you to hit them, like hades was doing in the start
10. laxus hype above erza is one two lines, and never confirmed. erza hype above natsu is like entire pre ts, with alot of confirmations.
so if you say something like
laxus>=erza>>natsu
i wouldnt have a problem. infact that what i concluded in my initial post of this thread
11. others dont improve. infact good guys improve the most. laxus most likely improved as much as jura (same for erza and jellal). so, could have still told us laxus was the leader (if he was cut above erza). at the end, erza looked like the leader (against sting)
1. Thats fine, i've mostly forgotten why i was talking about this anyway
2. What do you mean after Aria was out? Gajeel is simply Phantoms strongest per Jose's statement. As for why Gajeel's defense is better, for one he's stronger, secondly he has magic specifically tailored to it, thirdly we've never seen Aria take a hit, he's basically a Neinhart.
3. Sure, I'm not saying he didn't get his ass beat, I'm saying he could have kept going if he had more time
4. Erza didn't beat Kagura, Minerva sneak shotted her. Erza also didn't oneshot Minerva. As for not using her SO, it's merely an extra resource for magic, the fact that she used it on Minerva means she was spending the equivalent amount of magic Gray or Natsu do when they go all out with their SO active.
5. Because Gildarts couldn't get up, Erza could. Reason could be that she's the main, but then again I forgot why this point matters
6. Oh, it would take out the Gray who was beaten by Lyon, so start of the arc Gray. It would not take out end of the arc Gray.
7. How is that any better than Jura? Or even Gajeel+Natsu?
8. Hades didn't allow Laxus to hit him, dont be absurd. He was clearly shocked. Plus Laxus still has the Ameterasu blitz as well, it all adds up.
9. Why would I need more than two lines? If it's in the manga it matters. Erza also wasn't hyped>>Natsu, she was hyped >Natsu, with she herself thinking he might be able to match her, and people betting on Natsu in a fight between them.
10. Exactly, others don't improve, Jura did, to such a rate where he surpassed his superiors who had the same training timeframe. It demonstrates that his improvement is well above the norm. Main characters improve a lot because Mashima needs them strong, in GMG it was simply the case that he needed Jura to have that improvement too to present a threat to Laxus.
Every team leader was announced upon their defeat, no one in FT was defeated
1. Thats fine, i've mostly forgotten why i was talking about this anyway
2. What do you mean after Aria was out? Gajeel is simply Phantoms strongest per Jose's statement. As for why Gajeel's defense is better, for one he's stronger, secondly he has magic specifically tailored to it, thirdly we've never seen Aria take a hit, he's basically a Neinhart.
3. Sure, I'm not saying he didn't get his ass beat, I'm saying he could have kept going if he had more time
4. Erza didn't beat Kagura, Minerva sneak shotted her. Erza also didn't oneshot Minerva. As for not using her SO, it's merely an extra resource for magic, the fact that she used it on Minerva means she was spending the equivalent amount of magic Gray or Natsu do when they go all out with their SO active.
5. Because Gildarts couldn't get up, Erza could. Reason could be that she's the main, but then again I forgot why this point matters
6. Oh, it would take out the Gray who was beaten by Lyon, so start of the arc Gray. It would not take out end of the arc Gray.
7. How is that any better than Jura? Or even Gajeel+Natsu?
8. Hades didn't allow Laxus to hit him, dont be absurd. He was clearly shocked. Plus Laxus still has the Ameterasu blitz as well, it all adds up.
9. Why would I need more than two lines? If it's in the manga it matters. Erza also wasn't hyped>>Natsu, she was hyped >Natsu, with she herself thinking he might be able to match her, and people betting on Natsu in a fight between them.
10. Exactly, others don't improve, Jura did, to such a rate where he surpassed his superiors who had the same training timeframe. It demonstrates that his improvement is well above the norm. Main characters improve a lot because Mashima needs them strong, in GMG it was simply the case that he needed Jura to have that improvement too to present a threat to Laxus.
Every team leader was announced upon their defeat, no one in FT was defeated
2. gajeel could be barely stronger. he has never shown durability above his tier. he falls when natsu falls. so if aria is around him, their durability will be same.
that is bs. jura also never took a hit, anything of worth atleast. so why isnt jura like nienhart. can you link your comment during gmg arc, where you claim kagura has better durability than jura, atleast she took a hit, a hit which impressed jura
now this more of a case you want to make a gap between lightening roar and blumblatt. not because of anything in the manga
3. you mean he might be able to get up, maybe like gajeel got up after the lightening roar
4. yes she did, then she saved her life. SO is like three months training. it separates pre ts from gmg counterpart. erza was the only character who went through almost the entire gmg without that. it also separates pre ts jura and gmg jura
5.
6. so if characters improve that much in one arc, why are we talking about this. for all you know, erza would have one shot laxus after losing to him day before.
7. it is because pre ts laxus would have lost to jura at max mid diff. pre ts ntsu + pre ts gajeel < WS tier monster (pre ts jura/jellal).
8. yes, he could have, the same way he did for natsu. Ameterasu blitz was more shock factor relating to laxus tanking it
9. hold on hold on. so you think gajeel aria has same difference as erza and natsu. unbelievable. erza was >> natsu. that is why he shat himself when erza looks at him, that is why erza used to one shot him. that is why it took only racer to take out gray natsu and three fodders, and it took cobra racer and hoteye to take out erza. (this is called ignoring portrayal, one two lines which might imply laxus superiorty is apparently more important than all the above i mentioned lol)
i am getting a vibe that natsu and gray can move tiers when they are not around or could be compared to erza. sadly apprently this same doesnt happen for erza. lyon and aria gets stuck, sadly this doesnt seems to happen for laxus
yes that shows how much people know. that opinion would have changed after erza and natsu continued their fight after erza came back from the prison.
and erza also thought natsu could take laxus, so according to you ff laxus>ff natsu
10. so jura improved as much as erza and laxus or not?
at this point, i think you dont really have a point.
you think laxus>erza. this gap is equal or greater than erza > natsu ones.
you dont have proof for it. so its more of feeling based
you saw laxus being able to do something against hades and you heard erza saying natsu could be as strong as her.
and you decision was made
i have valid points.. any attack that takes out lyon or blinded aria should take out gray and natsu. but you change their powers. you dont care for actually ranking in a reaonable way, that is why we are talking here.
laxus got an unfair advantage, he was the boss character ones. so he gets to fight known fighters (and natsu is the MC). while pre ts erza feats sh!ts on any feat pre ts laxus has, it doesnt matter, because erza, like every good guy, fights a new villian, thus you can cause confusion there.
my logic is perfect
gray=natsu=lyon=aria=gajeel=pantherlily.
these are all around each other. thus their durably are around eachother.
erza blumblatt will match laxus lightening dragon roar.
other than fairy law, pre ts laxus has no hopes of giving pre ts a decent fight. erza benzikura is tiers above anything pre ts laxus has.
looking at only feats
pre ts erza mid diffs pre ts laxus (without fairy law)
looking at portrayal, though laxus portrayal above erza isnt really solid, laxus might be able to pull a win high diff or extreme high diff
2. gajeel could be barely stronger. he has never shown durability above his tier. he falls when natsu falls. so if aria is around him, their durability will be same.
that is bs. jura also never took a hit, anything of worth atleast. so why isnt jura like nienhart. can you link your comment during gmg arc, where you claim kagura has better durability than jura, atleast she took a hit, a hit which impressed jura
now this more of a case you want to make a gap between lightening roar and blumblatt. not because of anything in the manga
3. you mean he might be able to get up, maybe like gajeel got up after the lightening roar
4. yes she did, then she saved her life. SO is like three months training. it separates pre ts from gmg counterpart. erza was the only character who went through almost the entire gmg without that. it also separates pre ts jura and gmg jura
5.
6. so if characters improve that much in one arc, why are we talking about this. for all you know, erza would have one shot laxus after losing to him day before.
7. it is because pre ts laxus would have lost to jura at max mid diff. pre ts ntsu + pre ts gajeel < WS tier monster (pre ts jura/jellal).
8. yes, he could have, the same way he did for natsu. Ameterasu blitz was more shock factor relating to laxus tanking it
9. hold on hold on. so you think gajeel aria has same difference as erza and natsu. unbelievable. erza was >> natsu. that is why he shat himself when erza looks at him, that is why erza used to one shot him. that is why it took only racer to take out gray natsu and three fodders, and it took cobra racer and hoteye to take out erza.
i am getting a vibe that natsu and gray can move tiers when they are not around or could be compared to erza. sadly apprently this same doesnt happen for erza. lyon and aria gets stuck, sadly this doesnt seems to happen for laxus
yes that shows how much people know. that opinion would have changed after erza and natsu continued their fight after erza came back from the prison.
and erza also thought natsu could take laxus, so according to you ff laxus>ff natsu
10. so jura improved as much as erza and laxus or not?
at this point, i think you dont really have a point.
you think laxus>erza. this gap is equal or greater than erza > natsu ones.
you dont have proof for it. so its more of feeling based
you saw laxus being able to do something against hades and you heard erza saying natsu could be as strong as her.
and you decision was made
i have valid points.. any attack that takes out lyon or blinded aria should take out gray and natsu. but you change their powers. you dont care for actually ranking in a reaonable way, that is why we are talking here.
laxus got an unfair advantage, he was the boss character ones. so he gets to fight known fighters (and natsu is the MC). while pre ts erza feats sh!ts on any feat pre ts laxus has, it doesnt matter, because erza, like every good guy, fights a new villian, thus you can cause confusion there.
my logic is perfect
gray=natsu=lyon=aria=gajeel=pantherlily.
these are all around each other. thus their durably are around eachother.
erza blumblatt will match laxus lightening dragon roar.
other than fairy law, pre ts laxus has no hopes of giving pre ts a decent fight. erza benzikura is tiers above anything pre ts laxus has.
looking at only feats
pre ts erza mid diffs pre ts laxus (without fairy law)
looking at portrayal, though laxus portrayal above erza isnt really solid, laxus might be able to pull a win high diff or extreme high diff
1. Could be, all we know is that he is identifiably stronger. As for durability, Natsu has never no sold an attack from Gajeel, he just has higher firepower and being on the same tier doesn't make your durability the same. It's like saying God Serena has Neinhart tier durability.
Jura has taken multible hits. Aria has been oneshot by every hit that's touched him.
Lightning Roar doesn't need to be above Blumenbatt
2. More like how Erza got up after Terra Clamore.
3. No, Kagura was still good to fight, then Erza saved her from rocks and gave her the home town story.
Sure, but in the end she did use it, which means she spent the same two tanks of energy everyone else did.
4. Sure, as long as she demonstrates it, or was said to be capable of it.
5. Nothing suggest Natsu+Gajeel would've lost to WS saint monster. Dont see how saying Laxus wouldve lost to Jura implies anything about Kagura
6. No, Hades was fighting and dodging at a level that surpassed Team Natsu. Could he have gone harder? Sure, but it doesn't matter, because Laxus still outperformed them.
7. Fair point, Erza is further above.
Probably, Gray did beat the boss of the 7 kin after all.
8. Jura improved more than both, maybe combined. Jellal had SO+7 years. SO=Erza's SO + 7 years= Laxus 3 months, and Jura is his match. Of course I think Jellal's improvement in general was just molded into one thing and prob isn't as the math would suggest, Jura still improved massively though.
Careful on hyping up your "valid points" and "perfect logic", you're acting on many more assumptions than my core argument has, it's only when I follow your tangents that I start randomly tossing things out there
My core argument is really as simple as this, Laxus was hyped and likened to Gildarts as a monster, and displayed that level of monstrosity when he outperformed Team Natsu combined. The only real assumptions I'm making is that Gray isn't full of shit, and that Erza's amazement at Laxus is genuine.
Then later, Jura, strongest GMG fighter by far, likened to Gildarts, a monster that literally makes Minerva look like a joke in Mavis' eyes, so powerful that Mira didn't think she would win if she teamed up with Erza, and Laxus beat him. Again, there aren't really any assumptions here, it's merely me buying what the manga is selling.
Oh and as for your "perfect logic", claiming that Aria=Gajeel despite the clear statement to the contrary, while also saying Benizakura>>>Blumenbatt=Laxus Roar is a double standard and far from perfect. If Gajeel>Aria doesn't matter, then why should Benizakura>Blumenbatt?
1. Could be, all we know is that he is identifiably stronger. As for durability, Natsu has never no sold an attack from Gajeel, he just has higher firepower and being on the same tier doesn't make your durability the same. It's like saying God Serena has Neinhart tier durability.
Jura has taken multible hits. Aria has been oneshot by every hit that's touched him.
Lightning Roar doesn't need to be above Blumenbatt
2. More like how Erza got up after Terra Clamore.
3. No, Kagura was still good to fight, then Erza saved her from rocks and gave her the home town story.
Sure, but in the end she did use it, which means she spent the same two tanks of energy everyone else did.
4. Sure, as long as she demonstrates it, or was said to be capable of it.
5. Nothing suggest Natsu+Gajeel would've lost to WS saint monster. Dont see how saying Laxus wouldve lost to Jura implies anything about Kagura
6. No, Hades was fighting and dodging at a level that surpassed Team Natsu. Could he have gone harder? Sure, but it doesn't matter, because Laxus still outperformed them.
7. Fair point, Erza is further above.
Probably, Gray did beat the boss of the 7 kin after all.
8. Jura improved more than both, maybe combined. Jellal had SO+7 years. SO=Erza's SO + 7 years= Laxus 3 months, and Jura is his match. Of course I think Jellal's improvement in general was just molded into one thing and prob isn't as the math would suggest, Jura still improved massively though.
Careful on hyping up your "valid points" and "perfect logic", you're acting on many more assumptions than my core argument has, it's only when I follow your tangents that I start randomly tossing things out there
My core argument is really as simple as this, Laxus was hyped and likened to Gildarts as a monster, and displayed that level of monstrosity when he outperformed Team Natsu combined. The only real assumptions I'm making is that Gray isn't full of shit, and that Erza's amazement at Laxus is genuine.
Then later, Jura, strongest GMG fighter by far, likened to Gildarts, a monster that literally makes Minerva look like a joke in Mavis' eyes, so powerful that Mira didn't think she would win if she teamed up with Erza, and Laxus beat him. Again, there aren't really any assumptions here, it's merely me buying what the manga is selling.
Oh and as for your "perfect logic", claiming that Aria=Gajeel despite the clear statement to the contrary, while also saying Benizakura>>>Blumenbatt=Laxus Roar is a double standard and far from perfect. If Gajeel>Aria doesn't matter, then why should Benizakura>Blumenbatt?
1. but still aria coming across someone well above gajeel, doesnt make him nienhart. it is possible, erza blimblatt would have one shot gajeel too.
jura took punches an stuffs. pre ts natsu took more from pre ts laxus. so no he didnt. meanwhile kagura pretty much tanked a spell hyped by jura and mavis. 2. wasnt erza knocked unconscious after the first tera clemare?
3. so, if erza didnt move, she would have won. that is why i am saying pre ts erza took out kagura.
i think it was kinda portrayal thing. putting her in the same list gray made about monsters
4. erza vs irene? werent you saying her sh!t performance against ajeel had made her very low compared to others. and she had to do alot to make up for it
5. what. so ff natsu plus ff gajeel could take out heaven arc jellal or OS arc jura? i dont think so. it doesnt, it implies alot about where pre ts erza stood.
6. no he wasnt, he was standing and looking at laxus. after he started to move laxus couldnt hit him, till he tanked that 25 formula
7.
8. jura improved massively for normal, not for fairy tail. every relevant character got the same boost.
i am only working on few assumptions, which can easily take account the entire story.
like gray vs juvia
aria vs natsu
gajeel vs natsu
my assumption only is gajeel doesnt have massively better durability than others around him. thus what took aria out, will most likely do same for others.
so basically your core argument stems from one statement and one comparison (hades) where erza could be pretty much also be compared to gildarts
no you are making alot of assumptions
1. aria being nienhart type thing is one. i mean you can replace wrecked erza with wrecked laxus. the result will be the same. this assumption make no sense.
2. gajeel is alot above aria. assumption being the word alot.
3. character suddenly moves tiers up and stays there. big assumption and pretty much wrong. moment of pof is something we can agree. but natsu and gray dont move tiers up in a chapter. natsu would get beaten up by aria before and after phantom arc
4. team natsu condition during hades fight
5. hades seriousness against laxus
manga sells alot of things. you dont buy them all. minerva spell hype, kagura hype, s class monster hype. laxus was once hyped to be above erza. erza proved that hype could have applied to her as well.
gildarts and laxus dont need powerup to compete
erza barely used her powerup, while laxus used it throughout
jura being above mira plus erza, is equal to kagura and minerva being equal or above erza.
mishma portrayed them same in ff arc, and gave slight edge to laxus in gmg arc. and huge up to erza in alverzec arc
currently, we found out erza always thought laxus to be below her. i wonder what mishma was thinking here (and suddenly you are not interested in what manga is selling)
benzikura has feats of putting down characters who can easily handle blumblatt. it has put down characters that pre ts laxus cannot. since erza is reasonably above natsu, most of her troublesome opponents are also above natsu. pre ts laxus best power feat is him putting down gajeel, someone who should be somewhat stronger than aria
my logics simple
gajel~aria~pantherlily
laxus vs natsu with empress armor and admantine armor
erza>>natsu
laxus vs erza
conclusion
if pre ts laxus can beat pre ts erza, it will be a high or extreme high diff win (only because of that one two portrayal of laxus above erza)
without portrayal
pre ts erza beat pre ts laxus at max mid diff
1. but still aria coming across someone well above gajeel, doesnt make him nienhart. it is possible, erza blimblatt would have one shot gajeel too.
jura took punches an stuffs. pre ts natsu took more from pre ts laxus. so no he didnt. meanwhile kagura pretty much tanked a spell hyped by jura and mavis. 2. wasnt erza knocked unconscious after the first tera clemare?
3. so, if erza didnt move, she would have won. that is why i am saying pre ts erza took out kagura.
i think it was kinda portrayal thing. putting her in the same list gray made about monsters
4. erza vs irene? werent you saying her sh!t performance against ajeel had made her very low compared to others. and she had to do alot to make up for it
5. what. so ff natsu plus ff gajeel could take out heaven arc jellal or OS arc jura? i dont think so. it doesnt, it implies alot about where pre ts erza stood.
6. no he wasnt, he was standing and looking at laxus. after he started to move laxus couldnt hit him, till he tanked that 25 formula
7.
8. jura improved massively for normal, not for fairy tail. every relevant character got the same boost.
i am only working on few assumptions, which can easily take account the entire story.
like gray vs juvia
aria vs natsu
gajeel vs natsu
my assumption only is gajeel doesnt have massively better durability than others around him. thus what took aria out, will most likely do same for others.
so basically your core argument stems from one statement and one comparison (hades) where erza could be pretty much also be compared to gildarts
no you are making alot of assumptions
1. aria being nienhart type thing is one. i mean you can replace wrecked erza with wrecked laxus. the result will be the same. this assumption make no sense.
2. gajeel is alot above aria. assumption being the word alot.
3. character suddenly moves tiers up and stays there. big assumption and pretty much wrong. moment of pof is something we can agree. but natsu and gray dont move tiers up in a chapter. natsu would get beaten up by aria before and after phantom arc
4. team natsu condition during hades fight
5. hades seriousness against laxus
manga sells alot of things. you dont buy them all. minerva spell hype, kagura hype, s class monster hype. laxus was once hyped to be above erza. erza proved that hype could have applied to her as well.
gildarts and laxus dont need powerup to compete
erza barely used her powerup, while laxus used it throughout
jura being above mira plus erza, is equal to kagura and minerva being equal or above erza.
mishma portrayed them same in ff arc, and gave slight edge to laxus in gmg arc. and huge up to erza in alverzec arc
currently, we found out erza always thought laxus to be below her. i wonder what mishma was thinking here (and suddenly you are not interested in what manga is selling)
benzikura has feats of putting down characters who can easily handle blumblatt. it has put down characters that pre ts laxus cannot. since erza is reasonably above natsu, most of her troublesome opponents are also above natsu. pre ts laxus best power feat is him putting down gajeel, someone who should be somewhat stronger than aria
my logics simple
gajel~aria~pantherlily
laxus vs natsu with empress armor and admantine armor
erza>>natsu
laxus vs erza
conclusion
if pre ts laxus can beat pre ts erza, it will be a high or extreme high diff win (only because of that one two portrayal of laxus above erza)
without portrayal
pre ts erza beat pre ts laxus at max mid diff
1. Sure, just like Neinhart coming across someone way above the GoI doesn't make him a Neinhart... oh, wait...
2. Dunno, was she? If thats the case it's a bad example, lets say it's like Erza getting up after Kagura wrecked her.
3. Sure, sure, if that's the way you wanna put it then I agree.
4. And she did? If it wasnt for her Eileen fight i'd consider Erza far below Laxus, the Eileen fight bumped her massively and she didn't even win or solo it
5. Obviously? Did you think I wouldn't say that lol? I have Laxus beating both Jura and Jellal, why wouldnt I have the people who beat him above them?
6. And he didn't dodge, Laxus was faster.
7. I disagree, Mashima wanted Jura stronger, probably because it was too difficult to write Laxus a fight otherwise.
8. Like I said, I toss out random things, it is not part of my core argument, it's just me replying to you.
9. Never said that, I said he was above
10. Not an assumption, canonically Natsu was stronger against Gajeel than he was against Aria, it's in the manga.
11. You're the one assuming it, nothing about their injuries slowing them was mentioned, on the contrary they said they were going full power.
12. Also not an assumption, Team Natsu said Hades magic was on another level as they got stomped, Laxus fought that.
13. I believe every single one of those hypes, they're simply much less clear and more importantly don't at all contradict Mira's statement
14. Erza didn't "barely use" her powerup, she used it in it's entirety, she was as exhausted as the rest. Saving it for an ultimate attack doesn't change that.
15. Erza has never defeated an opponent that has tanked Blumenbatt with Benizakura, they always block or avoid it.
16. Laxus has better feats than Erza, he has performed objectively better than she has against the same foe. So Erza mid diffing him is laughable.
Aria didn't come off as way stronger than Gajeel. Natsu was stronger fighting Gajeel than he was fighting Aria, and the "hidden power" that Erza was talking about is no big secret. It's his emotions.
Taking out the S-Class monster doesn't make you on par with Jura. There is huge variation among the Wizard Saints. Jura outranked Makarov in X791.
Second Origin brought Erza closer to Laxus' and Jura's level, and both were above her prior to that. Hence why Mirajane accessed Jura as strong enough to take both herself and Erza both.
Aria didn't come off as way stronger than Gajeel. Natsu was stronger fighting Gajeel than he was fighting Aria, and the "hidden power" that Erza was talking about is no big secret. It's his emotions.
Taking out the S-Class monster doesn't make you on par with Jura. There is huge variation among the Wizard Saints. Jura outranked Makarov in X791.
Second Origin brought Erza closer to Laxus' and Jura's level, and both were above her prior to that. Hence why Mirajane accessed Jura as strong enough to take both herself and Erza both.
1. Sure, just like Neinhart coming across someone way above the GoI doesn't make him a Neinhart... oh, wait...
2. Dunno, was she? If thats the case it's a bad example, lets say it's like Erza getting up after Kagura wrecked her.
3. Sure, sure, if that's the way you wanna put it then I agree.
4. And she did? If it wasnt for her Eileen fight i'd consider Erza far below Laxus, the Eileen fight bumped her massively and she didn't even win or solo it
5. Obviously? Did you think I wouldn't say that lol? I have Laxus beating both Jura and Jellal, why wouldnt I have the people who beat him above them?
6. And he didn't dodge, Laxus was faster.
7. I disagree, Mashima wanted Jura stronger, probably because it was too difficult to write Laxus a fight otherwise.
8. Like I said, I toss out random things, it is not part of my core argument, it's just me replying to you.
9. Never said that, I said he was above
10. Not an assumption, canonically Natsu was stronger against Gajeel than he was against Aria, it's in the manga.
11. You're the one assuming it, nothing about their injuries slowing them was mentioned, on the contrary they said they were going full power.
12. Also not an assumption, Team Natsu said Hades magic was on another level as they got stomped, Laxus fought that.
13. I believe every single one of those hypes, they're simply much less clear and more importantly don't at all contradict Mira's statement
14. Erza didn't "barely use" her powerup, she used it in it's entirety, she was as exhausted as the rest. Saving it for an ultimate attack doesn't change that.
15. Erza has never defeated an opponent that has tanked Blumenbatt with Benizakura, they always block or avoid it.
16. Laxus has better feats than Erza, he has performed objectively better than she has against the same foe. So Erza mid diffing him is laughable.
1. bull. yourassumption
2. lol. yeah no. yourassumption
3.
4. nope, you were like erza hasnt done anything till dues sema thing happened. hanging with irene solo did nothing for you. you cherry picked
5. lol
6. he didnt dodge natsu either. i guess natsu is as fast if not faster than laxus
7. bull. just have aconologia participate for a moment
8. k
9. you said he is above in such a way an attack that one shot aria wont do sh!t to him yourassumption
10. its pof. canonically erza couple of times stronger against irene than she was against laxus. pof concept is same for everyone and yes, people dont keep it
11. so i just have to burn the entire arc, and only read hades fight? was something mentioned about alverzec laxus not perfroming 100% agaist hisrtoria hades? yourassumption being that they actually are performing best they can, kinda like how laxus = cobra if you look at aconologia fight. a better way would be not compare them here, instead of looking desperate and searching for any and all sh!t comparisons
12. laxus didnt fight anything. he lost in five seconds
13. gmg hype was all false. sting was as strong as natsu. kagura was as strong as erza. and minerva could do spell that might possibly be even above jellal sema.
14. she used it last second.
15. character like erza opponents or like laxus dont have power to block benizakura. blumblatt is difficult to block or dodge because they are alot of swords, and yet, its benzikura which people cant seems to block or dodge.
16. that erza already lasted more than gildarts. so why would i compare them that way. its like give erza fight till gildarts tier characters dont drop, and than have her fight fresh laxus who hopefully will be able to continue to fight atleast till 5seconds
you are absically saying
ff arc gajeel + ff arc natsu > pre ts jura + 99 monsters yourassumption and wrong as hell.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
I work comparison in quite simple way.
first i have to look at how fairy tail works.
so you normally dont have one character showing up another.
so natsu losing to someone and then erza beating them isnt something that happens alot.
so comparison isnt that simple or straight forward.
and then we have hype. enemies get hype all the time. its a way to make them look more devastating. but they are generally always false atleast compared to good guys and their feelings. so when marakrov told natsu to run away from zancrow, it doesnt necessary means that zancrow was stronger than natsu, but definitely means that natsu old opponents are weaker than zancrow (zancrow>cobra>gajeel)
and finally feats. some characters get more panels, some dont. erza fights generally involve overcoming her opponents and then one or two shotting them (samurai style). natsu fights involving alot punching kicking and enduring attacks. but it does not mean gajeel durability > midnight durability.
we dont normally get long fights where we can judge individual stats of normal bad guys.
so simple way to do that is not add stuffs yourself. because your slight baisness can effect the result. so i can say hey look erza pretty much one shot minerva (who barely got any injuries before), meanwhile it seems laxus had to go for a long fight to beat jura. thus it means erza attack power > laxus attack power. this obviously not a good analysis. it could also be jura durability> kagura durablity or maybe that how mishma write these people fights.
so why is say pre ts erza has better feats than laxus. and yet still conclude laxus might beat her.
well for one
erza has more fights. and if her hype with relation to natsu is respected than all her enemies are well above natsu in all stats excepts them feelings.
add that to the fact the erza we saw in gmg was also pre ts erza till the very last moment. erza has comfortable collection of feats laxus cant hope to match.
i take that into account. that is why i said erza feats sh!ts on laxus but laxus might still beat her high diff or so
portrayalwise, laxus has slight edge. keyword being slight. mishma never went and said it outright, he even shyed from it in ff arc, where both didnt hurt the others. he got slight hype over erza in gmg (which erza got compenstation for mostly in one way or another way).
hades example. one characters are complete tired and wrecked and running on low fuel. while laxus had to prove himself and get himself back in the guild. even then mishma went out of the way not to shine laxus too much. he landed his first hit like natsu did, he tried to keep hades from moving from the start, and when hades moved laxus fell. there was a cool moment when we saw laxus tank that 25 formula, which beyond the calculation of hades and erza. but we soon found out laxus was chewing far more than he could eat.
it was a cool moment, and laxus was rewarded by being allowed in the guild again. and yet, still mishma didnt outright say laxus is stronger because of it.
power ranking has remained the same from the start, atleast the base powers of all relevant fighting characters
erza~laxus~jellal
natsu~gray~gajeel
this respects the hype and feats of characters. (meaning you cant say laxus>>erza>=natsu, because then you are basically ignoring majority of the manga for two or three lines. you can say this laxus>>natsu (feat) you can say erza>>natsu(feat and hype) but going any more precise is something you are making up)
natsu is the only one who seems to not follow this, even though apparently mishma still believes in the above ranking
blinded aria beat natsu. pof natsu beat gajeel. saying gajeel>=aria is fine
no, pre ts jura said he ranked the lowest. i am saying pre ts jura = s class monster
than why didnt laxus show her who was the boss in ff arc. why did no one mention that erza was far below laxus before pre ts.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
1. bull. yourassumption
2. lol. yeah no. yourassumption
3.
4. nope, you were like erza hasnt done anything till dues sema thing happened. hanging with irene solo did nothing for you. you cherry picked
5. lol
6. he didnt dodge natsu either. i guess natsu is as fast if not faster than laxus
7. bull. just have aconologia participate for a moment
8. k
9. you said he is above in such a way an attack that one shot aria wont do sh!t to him yourassumption
10. its pof. canonically erza couple of times stronger against irene than she was against laxus. pof concept is same for everyone and yes, people dont keep it
11. so i just have to burn the entire arc, and only read hades fight? was something mentioned about alverzec laxus not perfroming 100% agaist hisrtoria hades? yourassumption being that they actually are performing best they can, kinda like how laxus = cobra if you look at aconologia fight. a better way would be not compare them here, instead of looking desperate and searching for any and all sh!t comparisons
12. laxus didnt fight anything. he lost in five seconds
13. gmg hype was all false. sting was as strong as natsu. kagura was as strong as erza. and minerva could do spell that might possibly be even above jellal sema.
14. she used it last second.
15. character like erza opponents or like laxus dont have power to block benizakura. blumblatt is difficult to block or dodge because they are alot of swords, and yet, its benzikura which people cant seems to block or dodge.
16. that erza already lasted more than gildarts. so why would i compare them that way. its like give erza fight till gildarts tier characters dont drop, and than have her fight fresh laxus who hopefully will be able to continue to fight atleast till 5seconds
you are absically saying
ff arc gajeel + ff arc natsu > pre ts jura + 99 monsters yourassumption and wrong as hell.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
I work comparison in quite simple way.
first i have to look at how fairy tail works.
so you normally dont have one character showing up another.
so natsu losing to someone and then erza beating them isnt something that happens alot.
so comparison isnt that simple or straight forward.
and then we have hype. enemies get hype all the time. its a way to make them look more devastating. but they are generally always false atleast compared to good guys and their feelings. so when marakrov told natsu to run away from zancrow, it doesnt necessary means that zancrow was stronger than natsu, but definitely means that natsu old opponents are weaker than zancrow (zancrow>cobra>gajeel)
and finally feats. some characters get more panels, some dont. erza fights generally involve overcoming her opponents and then one or two shotting them (samurai style). natsu fights involving alot punching kicking and enduring attacks. but it does not mean gajeel durability > midnight durability.
we dont normally get long fights where we can judge individual stats of normal bad guys.
so simple way to do that is not add stuffs yourself. because your slight baisness can effect the result. so i can say hey look erza pretty much one shot minerva (who barely got any injuries before), meanwhile it seems laxus had to go for a long fight to beat jura. thus it means erza attack power > laxus attack power. this obviously not a good analysis. it could also be jura durability> kagura durablity or maybe that how mishma write these people fights.
so why is say pre ts erza has better feats than laxus. and yet still conclude laxus might beat her.
well for one
erza has more fights. and if her hype with relation to natsu is respected than all her enemies are well above natsu in all stats excepts them feelings.
add that to the fact the erza we saw in gmg was also pre ts erza till the very last moment. erza has comfortable collection of feats laxus cant hope to match.
i take that into account. that is why i said erza feats sh!ts on laxus but laxus might still beat her high diff or so
portrayalwise, laxus has slight edge. keyword being slight. mishma never went and said it outright, he even shyed from it in ff arc, where both didnt hurt the others. he got slight hype over erza in gmg (which erza got compenstation for mostly in one way or another way).
hades example. one characters are complete tired and wrecked and running on low fuel. while laxus had to prove himself and get himself back in the guild. even then mishma went out of the way not to shine laxus too much. he landed his first hit like natsu did, he tried to keep hades from moving from the start, and when hades moved laxus fell. there was a cool moment when we saw laxus tank that 25 formula, which beyond the calculation of hades and erza. but we soon found out laxus was chewing far more than he could eat.
it was a cool moment, and laxus was rewarded by being allowed in the guild again. and yet, still mishma didnt outright say laxus is stronger because of it.
power ranking has remained the same from the start, atleast the base powers of all relevant fighting characters
erza~laxus~jellal
natsu~gray~gajeel
this respects the hype and feats of characters. (meaning you cant say laxus>>erza>=natsu, because then you are basically ignoring majority of the manga for two or three lines. you can say this laxus>>natsu (feat) you can say erza>>natsu(feat and hype) but going any more precise is something you are making up)
natsu is the only one who seems to not follow this, even though apparently mishma still believes in the above ranking
1. Of course it is lol, I told you these side tangents im replying to are all assumptions too, my core argument is literally 2 points
2. Same again.
3. Sure, because she got oneshot by a claw swipe two seconds earlier lol.
4. LFD empowered Natsu? Sure.
5. Then everyone dies. It's simple fact, Mashima has trouble writing Laxus enemies due to how strong he is, boosting Jura is a well crafted solution imo.
6. Didn't say it wouldnt do shit to him, I said it wouldnt beat him and even thats still an assumption, because this is a side tangent.
7. Doesn't matter what it is, Natsu was stronger. Nothing is canon about your statement, nowhere is it said Erza was stronger 1 year ago, quite the contrary.
8. You don't have to burn anything, just like I don't burn the entire Tartaros Arc when Gray and Natsu fought Mard Geer. As for Alvarez Laxus vs Hades, Laxus oneshot him with a mid tier attack, and you realize I have frequently stated Hades impressed me more than Wahl, right?
9. Team Natsu's amazement at his performance says otherwise.
10. None of those hype were stated to mean what you're saying they mean, quite the opposite. Mira's statement is clear cut and has nothing contradicting
11. Indeed she did.
12. What lol? Of course they do. Azuma blocked Benizakura, Minerva outright broke it(after blocking it many times)
13. Erza fighting a lesser opponent to Gildarts doesnt mean anything.
The way I work is much simpler than that big paragraph you used to explain your method.
1. If a character is stated and portrayed by the manga as stronger than another, then they are stronger unless the manga itself contradicts it later on.
2. If a character beats the aforementioned character or someone equal/stronger without help, then they are even stronger.
3. Feats and statements have equal importance. The more objective the hypes source, the better. The more clean the feat, the better.
4. Assumptions are fine, but the more broad and numerous they are, the less solid the argument sounds to me.
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