Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Luffy already has better observation haki than Sanji, Oda has made that clear.

Oda is having Luffy be a master the best haji user in all 3 haki types.

It was either that or having Luffy physically train his base strength, Oda chose the latter.

Luffy sense caribou in fishmen island before Zoro and Sanji. Not only that but Luffy has the most 95% of the abilities of observation haki.

Luffy can see the future, sense intent, sense emotion( stated by Rayleigh), use haki unconciously( as shown in the katakuri fight), sense strength(showjn when he met nekomushi), sense aura's and has the Voice of All Things( Hinten to be observation haki in databook).

Luffy's obsevation haki is the most complete of all. Luffy does have better observation haki than Sanji.

He is naturally good at observation haki.

And Luffy is aiming to be the strongest character for having the most freedom in the world.

His goal is to surpass the admirals and Yonko.

My boi returns!

Where have you been @Rm-sama. your Luffy wank has been much needed in these trying times

 

[Nie Li]

Luffy doesn’t surpass Sanji’s CoO until he beats Katakuri.

Katakuri saw a future to a certain point & tried to change it. Sanji’s Saw further into that future than Katakuri, as to why he dodged his attack also...Luffy didn’t dodge w/o throwing himself down or growing his CoO.

Zoro had an edge in CoA with Advanced Haki. Luffy in Wano is now learning Super Advanced Haki...

So yea Luffy’s Haki is better now but it wasn’t always

I never got the impression that Sanji was at Katakuri's CoO level from that scene. Being at his level is not needed to dodge that attack. Having good CoO is good enough.

When Katakuri threw his pellet, he used futuresight and aimed for his head, but what good would it do to dodge to where Sanji would dodge? That was a casual long range attack, so it doesn't matter how much his CoO is superior to Sanji's: once the pellet is out of his hand, the trajectory is set, and it being long range and casual, if Sanji feels it coming through any level of CoO he'll dodge it no matter where Katakuri aimed it at.

 

[HereNThere]

The weird thing with Sanji's CoO feat against Katakuri is mainly the latter's reaction after the fact. If Katakuri was looking into the future enough to know that Sanji would dodge the priest, why didn't he foresee Sanji dodging his own attack which would've struck before the priest shot Sanji? I think it's a good feat personally, but I'm not sure what Oda was trying to say with it.

 

[kkck]

The weird thing with Sanji's CoO feat against Katakuri is mainly the latter's reaction after the fact. If Katakuri was looking into the future enough to know that Sanji would dodge the priest, why didn't he foresee Sanji dodging his own attack which would've struck before the priest shot Sanji? I think it's a good feat personally, but I'm not sure what Oda was trying to say with it.

To me the implication there was also that sanji's observation haki was pretty advanced. Imagine what a confrontation between CoO users looks like... The result is basically a combination of speed, reflexes, awareness AND the two people involved anticipating the other's moves. Katakuri anticipates movements but sanji also anticipates and reacts... Which katakuri can potentially anticipate. That said, I don't think sanji's CoO is anywhere near as good as katakuri's. It's just that under those circumstances it was about good enough for sanji to dodge.

 

[Rmstorm]

To me the implication there was also that sanji's observation haki was pretty advanced. Imagine what a confrontation between CoO users looks like... The result is basically a combination of speed, reflexes, awareness AND the two people involved anticipating the other's moves. Katakuri anticipates movements but sanji also anticipates and reacts... Which katakuri can potentially anticipate. That said, I don't think sanji's CoO is anywhere near as good as katakuri's. It's just that under those circumstances it was about good enough for sanji to dodge.

What Sanji did, Luffy did when he dodged Flampe's needle.

Luffy went a step further and learned Future sight, which is 3rd level observational haki.

Sanji has level 2 observational haki, which is unconcious dodging

Luffy already peove his haki was better than Sanji's when he told Sanji to block his ears before Apoo attacked.

 

[M3J]

Luffy doesn’t surpass Sanji’s CoO until he beats Katakuri.

Katakuri saw a future to a certain point & tried to change it. Sanji’s Saw further into that future than Katakuri, as to why he dodged his attack also...Luffy didn’t dodge w/o throwing himself down or growing his CoO.

Zoro had an edge in CoA with Advanced Haki. Luffy in Wano is now learning Super Advanced Haki...

So yea Luffy’s Haki is better now but it wasn’t always

What?

Sanji didn't see further into the future, I think. Did he know the priest was about to shoot him, or did CoO tell him Katakuri was going to attack? Luffy pulled off this same feat against Demalo trying to shoot him on Sabaody, and Rayleigh knew the elephant was going to attack without even looking. I think Sanji juse used basic CoO to dodge Katakuri's attack, he couldn't really see into the future like Katakuri or Luffy can.

The weird thing with Sanji's CoO feat against Katakuri is mainly the latter's reaction after the fact. If Katakuri was looking into the future enough to know that Sanji would dodge the priest, why didn't he foresee Sanji dodging his own attack which would've struck before the priest shot Sanji? I think it's a good feat personally, but I'm not sure what Oda was trying to say with it.

I think the issue is that Katakuri can't see the future or new future when he interferes. He couldn't see Luffy going out of Gear 4 upon being told, he only saw Luffy losing Gear 4 and becoming immobile and thought that future wouldn't be changed. There seems to be more examples of where Katakuri interfered and changed the future in his enemy's favor.

Had he let the priest shoot first, could Katakuri's bean flick have hurt Sanji? Or would Sanji have stayed on high alert and dodged that too?

I can't be assed to reread what I said, and I dunno if it makes sense, but what I'm saying is that Katakuri can't foresee the new future after he interferes.

 

[Monox D. I-Fly]

Luffy already peove his haki was better than Sanji's when he told Sanji to block his ears before Apoo attacked.

Luffy told Sanji to block his ears because Sanji didn't know what Apoo's power was.

 

[Fox666]

I think the issue is that Katakuri can't see the future or new future when he interferes. He couldn't see Luffy going out of Gear 4 upon being told, he only saw Luffy losing Gear 4 and becoming immobile and thought that future wouldn't be changed. There seems to be more examples of where Katakuri interfered and changed the future in his enemy's favor.

Had he let the priest shoot first, could Katakuri's bean flick have hurt Sanji? Or would Sanji have stayed on high alert and dodged that too?

I can't be assed to reread what I said, and I dunno if it makes sense, but what I'm saying is that Katakuri can't foresee the new future after he interferes.

Yes, it has been made clear that Katakuri's CoO has a limit

All Katakuri could do was predict that the priest would fail

However, I don't get why people are saying that Sanji dodging Katakuri is an incredibly feat

What Sanji did is the most basic application of CoO, Luffy did the same dozens of times in every arc post-timeskip

 

[M3J]

Yes, it has been made clear that Katakuri's CoO has a limit

All Katakuri could do was predict that the priest would fail

However, I don't get why people are saying that Sanji dodging Katakuri is an incredibly feat

What Sanji did is the most basic application of CoO, Luffy did the same dozens of times in every arc post-timeskip

Exactly, Sanji wasn't impressive at all. I'm actually surprised not a lot of people noticed that Katakuri's Future Sight failed when he interfered, and not randomly. Shows that on top of not being calm, Future Sight either can't predict the user interfering or what happens after they interfere.

Sanji likely didn't know who was going to attack until they did. Luffy is definitely above Sanji in terms of CoO for now.

 

[King Moe]

Exactly, Sanji wasn't impressive at all. I'm actually surprised not a lot of people noticed that Katakuri's Future Sight failed when he interfered, and not randomly. Shows that on top of not being calm, Future Sight either can't predict the user interfering or what happens after they interfere.

Sanji likely didn't know who was going to attack until they did. Luffy is definitely above Sanji in terms of CoO for now.

Idk about that as Sanji shown that chapter he can hear voices of others unlike Luffy who never shown he can ever hear especially just stated he didn't know what was going on. It clears Oda push Sanji on his COO being more than even maybe Luffy or at least in certain aspects. You can debate who is better, but it's clear that both are high level on their COO.

Also Idk about that as even Katakuri FS on Luffy and yet he couldn't predict on stuff that Luffy done either. Just that like Sanji, both were able to outpredict Katakuri on his FS which is clear given how Oda hype them on their COO growing all around.

 

[M3J]

Didn't Luffy hear Zunisha? He and Momonosuke were the only ones who were able to do that. It doesn't matter either way, Luffy has Future Sight and thus, has the superior CoO as it'd help him in a fight.

What couldn't Katakuri predict?

 

[kkck]

The 3 main haki types have way too many branches and within those branches a lot of levels... The most likely scenario is that there are aspects of observation haki at which sanji remains largely better than luffy. An impression I have is also that sanji seems to be more capable of sustaining his observation haki than luffy. We know that observation haki requires the users to concentrate and if they lose their cool their observation haki stops working. Basically, luffy needs to actually focus to use his observation haki meanwhile sanji is able to use it pretty much unconsciously and even in situations where he has apparently or could have lost his cool. Like during the wedding or when he felt the trap black maria set for him.

 

[King Moe]

Didn't Luffy hear Zunisha? He and Momonosuke were the only ones who were able to do that. It doesn't matter either way, Luffy has Future Sight and thus, has the superior CoO as it'd help him in a fight.

What couldn't Katakuri predict?

That is 'Voice Of All Things', not COO-related from how it shown. If that was the case, why didn't Luffy and Jimbei heard about situation of woman being harm unlike Sanji? Just saying it's mixed on who has it better as certain things both are good at that the other doesn't have or still developing on.

Some of his attacks couldn't hit Luffy as they continue fighting and got out predicted just same when he use FS on Sanji and yet his future couldn't see on Sanji dodging, but he outpredicted him.

 

[Nie Li]

The 3 main haki types have way too many branches and within those branches a lot of levels... The most likely scenario is that there are aspects of observation haki at which sanji remains largely better than luffy. An impression I have is also that sanji seems to be more capable of sustaining his observation haki than luffy. We know that observation haki requires the users to concentrate and if they lose their cool their observation haki stops working. Basically, luffy needs to actually focus to use his observation haki meanwhile sanji is able to use it pretty much unconsciously and even in situations where he has apparently or could have lost his cool. Like during the wedding or when he felt the trap black maria set for him.

I don't know if that's a difference in being better at CoO or just that Luffy is so thoughtless and rash that he doesn't activate CoO as a precaution as much as Sanji.

That is 'Voice Of All Things', not COO-related from how it shown. If that was the case, why didn't Luffy and Jimbei heard about situation of woman being harm unlike Sanji? Just saying it's mixed on who has it better as certain things both are good at that the other doesn't have or still developing on.

The voice of all things is confirmed to be CoO-related. However, it appears to be something similar to CoC; something that some people activate regardless of their CoO prowess. If not, it would be impossible for Momonosuke, who lacks any other form of CoO, to hear the voice of all things. So I agree that Luffy hearing the voice of all things doesn't mean anything about how his haki compares to Sanji's.

The woman being harmed might not have even been haki. Haki or not, it could have simply been a matter of Sanji discering the voice of a "woman in help" even amidst all the battle noises and screams surrounding the castle, meanwhile Luffy and Jinbei were focused on the dangers ahead. In that sense, it's more Sanji's usual quirk than a display of superior CoO. I believe that if that scene was a display of CoO, Sanji wouldn't have fallen into the trap, since he would have known what awaited him behind the door. Especially that it was a room full of powerful enemies, but he didn't appear to notice until he had already gone in.

 

[King Moe]

I don't know if that's a difference in being better at CoO or just that Luffy is so thoughtless and rash that he doesn't activate CoO as a precaution as much as Sanji.


The voice of all things is confirmed to be CoO-related. However, it appears to be something similar to CoC; something that some people activate regardless of their CoO prowess. If not, it would be impossible for Momonosuke, who lacks any other form of CoO, to hear the voice of all things. So I agree that Luffy hearing the voice of all things doesn't mean anything about how his haki compares to Sanji's.

The woman being harmed might not have even been haki. Haki or not, it could have simply been a matter of Sanji discering the voice of a "woman in help" even amidst all the battle noises and screams surrounding the castle, meanwhile Luffy and Jinbei were focused on the dangers ahead. In that sense, it's more Sanji's usual quirk than a display of superior CoO. I believe that if that scene was a display of CoO, Sanji wouldn't have fallen into the trap, since he would have known what awaited him behind the door. Especially that it was a room full of powerful enemies, but he didn't appear to notice until he had already gone in.

Really? Seems to be something else than COO given Momosuke and we know his Haki is not there or at least not trained. Though yeah what I mean you can't use that as a example.

I would agree on that except we have already example of hearing voices before with COO as like Coby when he unlocks his COO first time, he could hear voices coming around from different areas, so make sense on Sanji what he did was something he can do, but Luffy and Jimbei can't as never stated anything they could hear voices around. While yes it was for his trait to protect women, it still a feat he did that none them noticed still. For his reason on falling for the trap is more so his emotions since Katakuri say you have to be come to use your COO all around just like why Luffy got damage by Apoo despite having FS. So just saying they are mixed on who is better than who on their COOs and still growing on them.

 

[M3J]

That is 'Voice Of All Things', not COO-related from how it shown. If that was the case, why didn't Luffy and Jimbei heard about situation of woman being harm unlike Sanji? Just saying it's mixed on who has it better as certain things both are good at that the other doesn't have or still developing on.

Some of his attacks couldn't hit Luffy as they continue fighting and got out predicted just same when he use FS on Sanji and yet his future couldn't see on Sanji dodging, but he outpredicted him.

That's most likely a gag. Wasn't Sanji able to do this before the timeskip as well??? Being able to hear women crying doesn't mean much, as it's not going to help Sanji overall.

You mean, when Luffy started getting a hang of Future Sight? And we already went over why Katakuri couldn't see Sanji dodging his attack. Katakuri changed the future by interfering, and he couldn't see the new future.

 

[King Moe]

That's most likely a gag. Wasn't Sanji able to do this before the timeskip as well??? Being able to hear women crying doesn't mean much, as it's not going to help Sanji overall.

You mean, when Luffy started getting a hang of Future Sight? And we already went over why Katakuri couldn't see Sanji dodging his attack. Katakuri changed the future by interfering, and he couldn't see the new future.

I heard that part with Tashigi was debated by the community if it was or not, but recent chapter confirms this was indeed him able to hear voices from afar if he wants to.

Nah even before FS, he was able to dodge attacks from Katakuri. Also Idk about that as he is skill on see more than one future, so if he knew Sanji would not go down in that with his attack, he would do something more than he did, but instead was shock when Sanji outpredict him.

 

[M3J]

Still a gag playing on his chivalrousness and perverted ways. No reason to believe otherwise.

When was Luffy able to dodge attacks from calm Katakuri? And Katakuri knew Sanji would dodge the priest's bullet, but he didn't see himself attacking Sanji or what would happen if he attacked Sanji. Sanji didn't outpredict Katakuri, he did a basic CoO move that Luffy did on Sabaody, and what most CoO users, if not all, can do.

 

[King Moe]

Still a gag playing on his chivalrousness and perverted ways. No reason to believe otherwise.

When was Luffy able to dodge attacks from calm Katakuri? And Katakuri knew Sanji would dodge the priest's bullet, but he didn't see himself attacking Sanji or what would happen if he attacked Sanji. Sanji didn't outpredict Katakuri, he did a basic CoO move that Luffy did on Sabaody, and what most CoO users, if not all, can do.

Gag doesn't take away it still a feat and reality that it happen. Luffy's gag into using G4 Tankman despite it came from a food gag he does when he eats a lot. By that logic that fight means nothing on how he beat Cracker now. Whether use in serious or funny moment doesn't take away Oda push it as a feat still. He already done it before with Tashigi, it is apparent it happen again instead of being one time thing.

Look back at the fight in both anime and manga as it shows he start to dodge his attacks without FS prior too. Katakuri didn't land every single hit. Doesn't make sense given Ktaakuri is very observant on getting the job done and he would foresaw if Sanji would dodge his attack and improvise again, but instead he was shock on seeing that he dodge it. It is a feat all around and not farfetched to say Sanji is equal or close to Luffy in COO given him and Zoro are naturally shown closest to their captain's power even before pre-timeskip.

 

[M3J]

Either way, still useless and nothing to brag about. The "food gag" works because Luffy eats food for energy, and Tankman probably requires a lot of energy to use. Tankman also has use in battle, while hearing women cry doesn't.

I don't give a shit about the anime. How often has Luffy dodged attacks without Future Sight, and was Katakuri calm or did he try to interfere to change the outcome? It makes plenty of sense, we have at least two proof where Katakuri did not see the new outcome from his interfering. He was probably too arrogant or didn't expect the opponent/s to know CoO or go out of Gear 4, but it can be safely proven that Katakuri's inability to see the new outcome has very little to do with the opponents and more to do with him.

Not a feat. Luffy and almost anyone with CoO can replicate this. Sanji was on high guard because he knew there'd be betrayal, he just didn't know from whom. Had Katakuri not interfered before the priest attacked, then Sanji would have dodged the priest's shot and possibly Katakuri's as well.