Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Monox D. I-Fly]

DF user weakness compare to normal Human? Like how your blatant ignoring canon thing and act like it wouldn't happen to any DF user and Luffy didn't faint because he was exhausted in battle. He was drowning and can't swim cause of canon weakness. Not same to guy who got stab easily and faint the next. By that logic Big Mom is weaker than that given she got weak when falling into the sea when we all know it's standard DF weakness. No one is immune to it.

I am not saying that Luffy is weaker than Krieg, I'm just saying that their battle resulted in a tie. Weakness and resistance wouldn't matter. Otherwise would you deny that Luffy beat Crocodile by coating his fist with blood? Or when he was immune to Enel's electric attack? Or when any logia user got defeated by a haki user?

 

[King Moe]

I am not saying that Luffy is weaker than Krieg, I'm just saying that their battle resulted in a tie. Weakness and resistance wouldn't matter. Otherwise would you deny that Luffy beat Crocodile by coating his fist with blood? Or when he was immune to Enel's electric attack? Or when any logia user got defeated by a haki user?

It does matter. If Luffy landed on land instead, he be fine and bounce back, not same of being tired from fight and you fainted afterwards as again canon weakness to all DF users is that they are weak to water and can't swim in it. No matter who you are, your not immune to it by any means as shown with different DF users than just Luffy and that goes for seatsone too. Also those examples aren't really the same and something else as more Luffy using smart play on how to touch them given their natural intangible from their Logia DFs to make the fight fair.

 

[Nie Li]

It does matter. If Luffy landed on land instead, he be fine and bounce back, not same of being tired from fight and you fainted afterwards as again canon weakness to all DF users is that they are weak to water and can't swim in it. No matter who you are, your not immune to it by any means as shown with different DF users than just Luffy and that goes for seatsone too. Also those examples aren't really the same and something else as more Luffy using smart play on how to touch them given their natural intangible from their Logia DFs to make the fight fair.

And then if Zoro had had a full stomach, he wouldn't have fainted, since going through hunger is a common weakness of all human beings.

Now on a more serious note, remember that this is the haki thread; we are moving from there into power levels and DFs with this Don Krieg and Zoro vs Kamazo thing.

 

[XXGenesis]

I’ve got this sort of head cannon/ speculation.
The way a normal human blocks DF powers or negates them from effecting them is using RYU.

Given Ryu whole’s nature as invisible aura armour Haki & not just hardening. I believe it’s the only defense against DF attacks.

Ex. Admirals use Ryu to block WB’s DF shockwave.

Rayleigh defended against the elephantand was never touched by his trunk..his Ryu Haki blew him away...

So my theory/ speculation in order to defend or block against haxx DF powers...I.e Sugar, Law, Gura Gura, Yami Yami..is to block it with Ryu as to wherea whole barrier Is placed between touch or contact from said effect..I.e DF power blocked...

 

[kkck]

I’ve got this sort of head cannon/ speculation.
The way a normal human blocks DF powers or negates them from effecting them is using RYU.

Given Ryu whole’s nature as invisible aura armour Haki & not just hardening. I believe it’s the only defense against DF attacks.

Ex. Admirals use Ryu to block WB’s DF shockwave.

Rayleigh defended against the elephantand was never touched by his trunk..his Ryu Haki blew him away...

So my theory/ speculation in order to defend or block against haxx DF powers...I.e Sugar, Law, Gura Gura, Yami Yami..is to block it with Ryu as to wherea whole barrier Is placed between touch or contact from said effect..I.e DF power blocked...

The way I see it... Is that devil fruits aren't magic within the context of OP. They basically mutate the user and the effects DFs are capable of essentially fit within OP's conventional physics. Haki is basically OP's answer to ki but in context it is still just a force that has physical effects within OP.

So how a DF works is basically... it physically blocks the physical effects from DFs. For example when the admirals blocked WB's vibrations. WB emitted energy (vibrations) which was physically stopped by the energy (haki) emitted by the admirals.

Now if you consider that context... I am pretty sure there are some abilities which haki can't defend from or interphere with. For example, sugars. Sugar just touched people and they turned into toys. It never seemed to matter how strong the person was or how many people there were. Add to that, the fruit had literally everyone on earth forgetting about the people in question. You could physically prevent sugar from touching you via haki but once you get touched there is no mechanism by which haki can protect you from the ability. Kinda the same applies to vander deken's ability. There is no known mechanism by which haki can stop an object from following you once the ability is activated.

Regarding law's ability, I am not entirety sure of how it affects cutting. As in, are those just regular with a twist or does the fruit somehow facilitate cutting? It does look like haki can at a minimum to some extent protect you from being cut by law.

 

[Monox D. I-Fly]

Now if you consider that context... I am pretty sure there are some abilities which haki can't defend from or interphere with. For example, sugars. Sugar just touched people and they turned into toys. It never seemed to matter how strong the person was or how many people there were. Add to that, the fruit had literally everyone on earth forgetting about the people in question. You could physically prevent sugar from touching you via haki but once you get touched there is no mechanism by which haki can protect you from the ability. Kinda the same applies to vander deken's ability. There is no known mechanism by which haki can stop an object from following you once the ability is activated.

Now I am curious about whether Perona's Negative Hollows can be blocked by Haki or not.

 

[King Moe]

And then if Zoro had had a full stomach, he wouldn't have fainted, since going through hunger is a common weakness of all human beings.

Now on a more serious note, remember that this is the haki thread; we are moving from there into power levels and DFs with this Don Krieg and Zoro vs Kamazo thing.

Alright then, let's move onto something more interesting like how many more COCs do you guys expect to see down the line to awaken?

 

[Nie Li]

Now I am curious about whether Perona's Negative Hollows can be blocked by Haki or not.

I'd say no since it's nature is much more different than just "an attack" for CoA to be able of blocking it, but... who knows.

Perhaps someone with CoC could resist her ghosts, since that implies strength of mind. Luffy was affected by Perona but that was before he properly CoC.

Alright then, let's move onto something more interesting like how many more COCs do you guys expect to see down the line to awaken?

To awaken as new CoC users? Some Supernovas like Law and Kidd and Zoro. Zoro only going by how similar his role is to Rayleigh's in my eyes, but it's not like any Strawhats really need such a power. Unless there's more to CoC than we have been shown, then having a will strong enough to withstand it is worth almost as much as actually having it.

 

[King Moe]

I'd say no since it's nature is much more different than just "an attack" for CoA to be able of blocking it, but... who knows.

Perhaps someone with CoC could resist her ghosts, since that implies strength of mind. Luffy was affected by Perona but that was before he properly CoC.


To awaken as new CoC users? Some Supernovas like Law and Kidd and Zoro. Zoro only going by how similar his role is to Rayleigh's in my eyes, but it's not like any Strawhats really need such a power. Unless there's more to CoC than we have been shown, then having a will strong enough to withstand it is worth almost as much as actually having it.

Zoro isn't on same level as those like Kidd and Law. Let's not go on power levels on this talk now. Kidd and Law are guarantee to have it in given on their portrayal. Kinda maybe on Zoro on having it to be honest as he doesn't have traits to show he can unlock it, but I think Sanji will be one of those to do it given I seen recent discussions on those stating similarities with him and Rayleigh in design and attitude at times.

Actually how many Roger Pirate members have COC than just Roger? We have Rayleigh, Gaban (Heavily Implied given portrayal), Bullet, Oden, and Shanks. given they are top strong guys and fit in traits shown on why they have it, so possibility of Strawhats Members having it than just Luffy could be:

Sanji, Zoro, Jimbei, and Usopp. Iffy to push Jimbei as he already on his Prime and shown nothing about having COC, so think new members in the future could have it on them to be apart of the crew. Usopp might look like stretch, but I can see him having it especially his infamous bloodline and surprise factor just like how he gotten Haki first out of the crew to unlock theirs after timeskip, so think Oda is pushing him for next stage of being something else at EOS too.

 

[Nie Li]

Zoro isn't on same level as those like Kidd and Law. Let's not go on power levels on this talk now. Kidd and Law are guarantee to have it in given on their portrayal. Kinda maybe on Zoro on having it to be honest as he doesn't have traits to show he can unlock it, but I think Sanji will be one of those to do it given I seen recent discussions on those stating similarities with him and Rayleigh in design and attitude at times.

You're the only one who has mentioned power levels or those three being on a similar level. I didn't.

Of course you doubt Zoro will achieve it but trust Sanji will, and of course you see the crew's cook as the most similar to Rayleigh, instead of the swordsman (check) first mate (check) with a scarred eye (check).

The two of them might unlock it tbh. I only mentioned Zoro because he's a direct parallel to Rayleigh and that makes me think that he will, but I didn't mean to say no other strawhat (or any other pirate in general) will.

 

[XXGenesis]

The way I see it... Is that devil fruits aren't magic within the context of OP. They basically mutate the user and the effects DFs are capable of essentially fit within OP's conventional physics. Haki is basically OP's answer to ki but in context it is still just a force that has physical effects within OP.

So how a DF works is basically... it physically blocks the physical effects from DFs. For example when the admirals blocked WB's vibrations. WB emitted energy (vibrations) which was physically stopped by the energy (haki) emitted by the admirals.

Now if you consider that context... I am pretty sure there are some abilities which haki can't defend from or interphere with. For example, sugars. Sugar just touched people and they turned into toys. It never seemed to matter how strong the person was or how many people there were. Add to that, the fruit had literally everyone on earth forgetting about the people in question. You could physically prevent sugar from touching you via haki but once you get touched there is no mechanism by which haki can protect you from the ability. Kinda the same applies to vander deken's ability. There is no known mechanism by which haki can stop an object from following you once the ability is activated.

Regarding law's ability, I am not entirety sure of how it affects cutting. As in, are those just regular with a twist or does the fruit somehow facilitate cutting? It does look like haki can at a minimum to some extent protect you from being cut by law.

Vergo vs Law makes me question if Haki in and of itself can block a DF ability.

but what I’m referring to is that Ryu can easily counter certain/many DF abilities....Such as Surgar......If Surgar isn’t physically touching you, her powers don’t activate. RYU is a perfect defense against that, since it gives you an invisible aura to block with....

 

[King Moe]

You're the only one who has mentioned power levels or those three being on a similar level. I didn't.

Of course you doubt Zoro will achieve it but trust Sanji will, and of course you see the crew's cook as the most similar to Rayleigh, instead of the swordsman (check) first mate (check) with a scarred eye (check).

The two of them might unlock it tbh. I only mentioned Zoro because he's a direct parallel to Rayleigh and that makes me think that he will, but I didn't mean to say no other strawhat (or any other pirate in general) will.

Nah seems like your were implying him on same level as Kidd and Law there. Just saying they won't be same level is all.

From what we seen, Sanji and Rayleigh are blondes, have goatees, hairy legs, both have leadership, smart and tactical, can fight with both their bodies and equipment (RS and Sword), and so on. Actually Rayleigh could be embodiment of both characters given similarities on both Sanji and Zoro.

Pretty sure there be a lot more than that especially if they going to surpassed Roger's Crew on how many COCs they have on their side. Though thanks for explaining it out.

 

[Nie Li]

Nah seems like your were implying him on same level as Kidd and Law there. Just saying they won't be same level is all.

Your question was who do we think will awaken CoC.
I said some supernovas, like Law and Kidd, and also Zoro.

There's no implication about power levels in there, don't look for one.

 

[kkck]

Now I am curious about whether Perona's Negative Hollows can be blocked by Haki or not.

I don't think so. The ghosts lack any physical substance for haki to interfere with. Maybe brook can cut them if they resemble souls enough....

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 8, 2020, Original Post Date: Oct 8, 2020 ---

Vergo vs Law makes me question if Haki in and of itself can block a DF ability.

but what I’m referring to is that Ryu can easily counter certain/many DF abilities....Such as Surgar......If Surgar isn’t physically touching you, her powers don’t activate. RYU is a perfect defense against that, since it gives you an invisible aura to block with....

As I said, it depends. With law what I am unsure of is if law's fruit has any intrinsic properties which facilitate cutting to begin with. I feel like it probably has to have some property like that as otherwise anyone he cuts could as easily have been killed.

Yeah, certainly. Though that's not specifically a haki thing. You could also defend from sugar by simply being faster than she is... I interpreted the question as to how devil fruits can protect you from the actual effects on a fruit rather than in preventing its activation.

 

[XXGenesis]

I still think your misunderstanding my perspective on Haki vS DF.

Dodging Sugar is an obvious counter/defense against her.

terms of Law I get your opinion. I’m just jumping out on the ledge and predicting/theorizing until never proven or proven otherwise. Ryu the way the Admirals used it, or simply in its general usage may be capable of blocking the effects not Just stopping the activation in some cased last but negating it’s whole effect entirely.

 

[McNuss]

Vergo vs Law makes me question if Haki in and of itself can block a DF ability.

but what I’m referring to is that Ryu can easily counter certain/many DF abilities....Such as Surgar......If Surgar isn’t physically touching you, her powers don’t activate. RYU is a perfect defense against that, since it gives you an invisible aura to block with....

Vergo vs Law is actually proof that it works. Both Doflamingo and Caesar Clown were confident that the Haki monster Vergo would defeat Law.

Law's fruit uses Stamina as a resource, so the calculation is probably like this:

(Law's Stamina used) - (Vergo's Haki used) = Law's attack power

If the attack power breaks a certain threshold, a cut is made.

This would explain how Law could defeat Vergo but never tried Amputate or Mes on Doflamingo. Because realistically, if it cannot be blocked, there would be no reason to avoid using it altogether.

Law's cuts, albeit magical, are still physical though and I don't think Haki can be used to block non-physical attacks such as Sugar or Perona.

 

[Silvers Horse]

I don't think COO is a linear scale. Sanji can be stronger at some aspecs while Luffy is stronger in others.

We have seen 3 types of COO so far in the series:

1. Field vision. Fujitora have mastered this imo. Enel and Rayleigh has shown some stuff also.
2. Sensing the future. Many characters can do this a little bit. Katakuri/Luffy have the most advanced version so far (future sight).
3. The voice of all things. Momo have the most advanced version so far imo.

This chapter has shown us that Sanji is stronger in 1. than Luffy currently. Maybe it's only with women, but that still counts.

I don't think Fujitora necessarily has future sight even though he has mastered the field vision thing. COO is not a lineary scale

 

[Ricko]

Many people may have forgot, I think this exemple show cleary that Sanji got a better observation Haki than Luffy at that time...
He could casualy avoid a deadly shot of Kataguri... Luffy could do it but with diffculty because Kata aim the place he dodge...

Luffy may have improve his Observation after the fight, but I think Sanji will always have an edge over him, why ?
Because Luffy never aimed to be the overall strongest character, he need support as he said against Arlong.
The strenght of the Strawhat is their teamwork, remember all the past events, nothing could be achieved by Luffy alone (Robin rescue, Alabasta, Oz, Doflamingo etc...) !

 

[Rmstorm]

Many people may have forgot, I think this exemple show cleary that Sanji got a better observation Haki than Luffy at that time...
He could casualy avoid a deadly shot of Kataguri... Luffy could do it but with diffculty because Kata aim the place he dodge...

Luffy may have improve his Observation after the fight, but I think Sanji will always have an edge over him, why ?
Because Luffy never aimed to be the overall strongest character, he need support as he said against Arlong.
The strenght of the Strawhat is their teamwork, remember all the past events, nothing could be achieved by Luffy alone (Robin rescue, Alabasta, Oz, Doflamingo etc...) !

Luffy already has better observation haki than Sanji, Oda has made that clear.

Oda is having Luffy be a master the best haji user in all 3 haki types.

It was either that or having Luffy physically train his base strength, Oda chose the latter.

Luffy sense caribou in fishmen island before Zoro and Sanji. Not only that but Luffy has the most 95% of the abilities of observation haki.

Luffy can see the future, sense intent, sense emotion( stated by Rayleigh), use haki unconciously( as shown in the katakuri fight), sense strength(showjn when he met nekomushi), sense aura's and has the Voice of All Things( Hinten to be observation haki in databook).

Luffy's obsevation haki is the most complete of all. Luffy does have better observation haki than Sanji.

He is naturally good at observation haki.

And Luffy is aiming to be the strongest character for having the most freedom in the world.

His goal is to surpass the admirals and Yonko.

 

[XXGenesis]

Luffy doesn’t surpass Sanji’s CoO until he beats Katakuri.

Katakuri saw a future to a certain point & tried to change it. Sanji’s Saw further into that future than Katakuri, as to why he dodged his attack also...Luffy didn’t dodge w/o throwing himself down or growing his CoO.

Zoro had an edge in CoA with Advanced Haki. Luffy in Wano is now learning Super Advanced Haki...

So yea Luffy’s Haki is better now but it wasn’t always