Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Nie Li]

Whenever a character imbues either his limbs or weapons with CoA, said limb or weapon become visibly clad in black both for the readers and the characters. It's just that certain swordsmen, through an unknown but hard to achieve method (since Yoru and Shusui are the only known examples) that's probably just using the highest grade CoA for long enough of a same blade and complete mastery of swordsmanship, can make that blackness become permanent on the blade.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

That's factually incorrect. Hardening is a specific technique, distinct from regular invisible haki. Plenty of characters still use the basic version of haki (like sanji). Or luffy when grabbing caesar. Or zoro when cutting monet... Hardening causes a visible change in color for characters in the series. Hardening a limb and hardening a sword (as in making it black) is literally the same technique, it's just applied differently. Heck, hardening has a specific name within the series...

No it's not. OP characters don't see haki. They can only feel it.

Blackness is only for us readers to know that a stronger version of haki is being utilized.

Black hardening was never shown pre-timeskip. Nor did people see other characters using it. Marineford — not once.

You don't think Marco and Vista wouldn't use "visibly" black haki against Akainu. Or that WB, a Yonko, never used it in Marineford.

And again, Rayleigh pre-timeskip uses the advanced haki but no blackness is shown, but in Luffy's flashback it's shown black.

Heck even Hyogoro confirms this by saying that haki is an invisible power.

Whenever a character imbues either his limbs or weapons with CoA, said limb or weapon become visibly clad in black both for the readers and the characters. It's just that certain swordsmen, through an unknown but hard to achieve method (since Yoru and Shusui are the only known examples) that's probably just using the highest grade CoA for long enough of a same blade and complete mastery of swordsmanship, can make that blackness become permanent on the blade.

No confirmation for this in the manga. It could be many things: blood of enemies + haki, for instance. And in any way, black blades are simply more durable and resistant to scratches versions of normal blades. They don't come with haki pre applied or anything like that.

Though I agree that haki plays a role in blades turning black, I just don't think it's the only prerequisite.

 

[Shasha23]

No it's not. OP characters don't see haki. They can only feel it.

Blackness is only for us readers to know that a stronger version of haki is being utilized.

Black hardening was never shown pre-timeskip. Nor did people see other characters using it. Marineford — not once.

You don't think Marco and Vista wouldn't use "visibly" black haki against Akainu. Or that WB, a Yonko, never used it in Marineford.

And again, Rayleigh pre-timeskip uses the advanced haki but no blackness is shown, but in Luffy's flashback it's shown black.

Heck even Hyogoro confirms this by saying that haki is an invisible power.



No confirmation for this in the manga. It could be many things: blood of enemies + haki, for instance. And in any way, black blades are simply more durable and resistant to scratches versions of normal blades. They don't come with haki pre applied or anything like that.

Though I agree that haki plays a role in blades turning black, I just don't think it's the only prerequisite.

unfortunately your message is falling on deaf ears.

 

[kkck]

Setting aside that haki hardening has a very specific name, we have seen haki as an invisible thing plenty of times since the timeskip. Luffy punching a pacifista, luffy grabbing caesar, zoro cutting monet at a distance... It's fairly clear that the blackness isn't a mere visual cue for readers. If it worked like that the series would largely not make sense. There would be way too many instances of characters not using haki when they should have, instances of haki working on logia without the user turning black and even instances of haki imbued weapons not turning black or perhaps more nonsensically the weapons not being imbued in haki to begin with. If color change wasn't literal and a specific haki technique there wouldn't even be a reason to specifically name it. Let alone the absurdity of oda adding a flame like pattern to it in some cases.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2020 ---

Heck, another case: Tashigi. Confirmed haki user that fought and wounded a logia.. yet not one instance of her blade turning black.

 

[Fox666]

I think Haki is visible to characters

Aren't "Black Blades" permanently hardened with Haki?

Zephys was called "Black Arm" (while the character is not canon, he was created by Oda)

 

[Nie Li]

No confirmation for this in the manga. It could be many things: blood of enemies + haki, for instance. And in any way, black blades are simply more durable and resistant to scratches versions of normal blades. They don't come with haki pre applied or anything like that.

Though I agree that haki plays a role in blades turning black, I just don't think it's the only prerequisite.

The real reason why it becames permanently black is unknown (and I acknowledged that the reasoning in my post was just an assumption by saying "probably"), but it is known to be related to haki imbuement, and it is known that those blades simply look like they're permanently imbued.

What reason is there to think characters don't see the blackness of haki imbuement? It wasn't used as a visual cue either pre-ts. If you think Oda suddenly changed his mind and decided to make it become black as a visual cue for the readers, why isn't it possible that instead Oda changed his mind and simply reckoned imbuement into causing blackness?


There's also the times mentioned by kkck in which post-timeskip basic hardening usage hasn't caused blackness.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

There's also the times mentioned by kkck in which post-timeskip basic hardening usage hasn't caused blackness.

I don't understand where the confusion is coming from. Blackness is a differentiator which indicates that a stronger haki was used.

But it's fine if you or @kkck don't believe that it is the case.

 

[kkck]

I don't understand where the confusion is coming from. Blackness is a differentiator which indicates that a stronger haki was used.

But it's fine if you or @kkck don't believe that it is the case.

It's a specific armor haki technique with a specific name... What you are suggesting in no way explain what we see in the manga. As in, you are plainly ignoring so many instances where invisible armor haki is used.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

It's a specific armor haki technique with a specific name... What you are suggesting in no way explain what we see in the manga. As in, you are plainly ignoring so many instances where invisible armor haki is used.

Um, no. Not ignoring any of that. Invisible haki is regular haki but stronger.

There are plenty of examples when black haki was used in the same fashion as the invisible one.

 

[kkck]

Um, no. Not ignoring any of that. Invisible haki is regular haki but stronger.

There are plenty of examples when black haki was used in the same fashion as the invisible one.

What does that mean? Invisible haki and hardening are used in pretty much the same way. They are simply different techniques of the same type of haki (and armor haki is visible to the naked eye).

 

[Deleted member 169696]

What does that mean? Invisible haki and hardening are used in pretty much the same way. They are simply different techniques of the same type of haki (and armor haki is visible to the naked eye).

You said that hardening is a technique with a name. However, there are plenty of instances where it is used as a noname technique, exactly like the invisible haki.

The invisible one and the black one are the same. The black one is simply more dense, harder.

 

[King Moe]

But... why? We have seen this with vergo (full body hardening), luffy (his big ass gear 3 fists) and pica (full body hardening). but suddenly shading sanji's pants is an insurmountable nigh yonko level task?

Also, the raid suit definitely increases pretty much everything. Endurance is a given given that it is essentially an armor and we have seen sanji's siblings outspeeding sanji due to their flight. The suit is a pretty ideal tool for someone whose haki is lagging.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2020 ---

It's literally the same technique, except one applies to your own limbs and another is an application of projected haki. Hardened limbs ARE visibly black.

He wasn't in dark-color scheme with his clothing and you took off his upper clothing to see Haki and again none of those you use are good examples to what I am shading as their color scheme isn't clashing with Haki to show while Sanji always goes dark-color attire in same tone similar to Haki shading. You can't see it and have you done artwork before? Your acting like art is easy to show especially shade of dark which is one of the most difficult colors to show tones within another or next to it. Your not giving good example on color scheme talk on situation.

Only few things, but not all as invisibility doesn't increase your power no matter how you want to insert. Sanji still have to rely on his skills and will always train his body than just rely on RS unlike his siblings. You mean outspeed while he was holding his captain who put down his weight for him and being careful not getting hit at same time while protecting Luffy? Not excuse and this same sibling who almost got his neck broken by Sanji and couldn't dodge it point-blank until needing blackmail to make him stop fighting. Your really taking Niji's word with his performance when they fought as obviously many factors shows Sanji is faster even without RS and nor is his Haki lagging, that more your imagination than what situation is as your ignoring instances of him being fine without RS too.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Nice argument @kkck and @Pea you both have strong points. Personally, I feel CoA has levels of strength/advancement and the visuals we get is a representation of it (sometimes it's there, sometimes it isn't). The interesting thing is that the blackened thingy is meant to be a sign that hardening is at play.
For instance, when Katakuri whose CoA was already stronger/denser than Luffy's went "block Mochi" mode, it's as though one could feel an increase in the strength/density of it via the shape of his arm. Similarly, with Big Mom and Luffy's G4 flaming hardening style, it gives an impression of a more denser Haki been used than normal.

To put it simply, it seems when denser/stronger or more Haki (CoA) is being used than normal, the black colour representation comes into play: For instance, Every G4 moment, Zoro vs Enma (Oden's sword) - lol, and nearly every important battle in the New World so far.

But then, there are cases where it doesn't make sense for the characters not to use hardening given in that particular situation, they need it more than ever. Notable examples:

• 9 RS vs Kaido - The fact that Oden was using hardening (Ryou) on his blade when he sliced Kaido makes things a little out of place. None of the Scabbards Katana was visually imbued with hardening yet Kaido claimed they are using same hardening (Ryou) as Oden. So it's either the level of their CoA is inferior to Oden or Oda just decided he's out of black paint. The former seems more plausible and is what I feel the author is going for hence they were not able to cause similar damage as Oden (whose cut was even from a distance plus dragon form).
This is even more baffling to me when I realise that Kinemon can use hardening, he and Zoro used it when trying to stop Doffy's birdcage, but not when facing a greater danger like Kaido???

• Cracker vs Luffy - Cracker claimed to be the most superior combatant Luffy had ever faced up until that point. Hence even his Haki was superior.
But most of his clashes while fighting Luffy was devoid of CoA hardening on his part which seemed absurd to me since Luffy stated that Cracker's Haki was the hardest he'd faced up until that point.

• Every single battle involving the Akazaya 9 is devoid of hardening, from clashes against foes and friends (Ashura vs Jack, Inu vs Ashura, Zoro vs Denjiro, Kawamatsu vs Kanjuro, Kanjuro vs Kikunojo).


I think this is a case of neither of you being wrong @Pea and @kkck.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Sanji is piggy bagging on his raid suit though. And it does seem to provide substantial defensive capabilities to the user even regardless of haki. Overall the situation is the same, no one can point to an actual instance of sanji definitively using hardening.

i guess oda just wants to go for a different route for sanji. Oda doesn't make him as haki expert, but uses the raid suit as a new variety to boost sanji's strength and durability

 

[King Moe]

i guess oda just wants to go for a different route for sanji. Oda doesn't make him as haki expert, but uses the raid suit as a new variety to boost sanji's strength and durability

Nah he is Haki expert, but he definitely give Zoro Emna to be magical sword for him over RS which is more skill-based on how to use it. We can see their performance with Haki and flexibility and not much I can say on Zoro as he doesn't know how to use it in best way compare to others I have seen especially in defensive manner.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Nah he is Haki expert, but he definitely give Zoro Emna to be magical sword for him over RS which is more skill-based on how to use it. We can see their performance with Haki and flexibility and not much I can say on Zoro as he doesn't know how to use it in best way compare to others I have seen especially in defensive manner.

enma is not plot powerup like raid suit. In fact, you can die using enma if you cannot control it properly.
Raid suit gives you more durability only by wearing it. Sanji is not going the haki expert route, but the technology route to fight his enemies, same way to usopp, nami, franky

 

[kkck]

I don't really consider enma itself a powerup. Mastering the sword is the powerup rather than the sword itself. It's very likely that once zoro gets that done there won't be a substantial difference in performance between his 3 swords... And even if there is something to this, it will lose relevance over time. The series is pretty clear in that haki is of utmost importance to a swordsman as it can make basically any sword black.

 

[King Moe]

enma is not plot powerup like raid suit. In fact, you can die using enma if you cannot control it properly.
Raid suit gives you more durability only by wearing it. Sanji is not going the haki expert route, but the technology route to fight his enemies, same way to usopp, nami, franky

It is one as anyone with Haki can wield it, not just Zoro. You think if Luffy touches it he won't be able to handle it? I can list full group of people I know who can handle Enma and Zoro will look inadequate against them in how Enma is use.

Durablity at best, but even without it, Sanji is fine with his Haki as shown on how he damage and block others without it. Sanji isn't relying on it as power, but for stealth missions. His skills are still his own as invisibility isn't something to raise his power, his skills and own training is while Zoro got sword that use power without asking the user, so not same thing between them on their purpose.

 

[kkck]

luffy can't really use a sword in general and only recently figured out how to project haki. It's not necessarily the case that he would be able to handle enma upon touching it. Heck, even zoro was warned against using it in general...

 

[HereNThere]

I'd say Enma is a power up, or at least, it will eventually turn into a tangible power up. Aside from the fact that it trains his haki, it will eventually become a Black Blade, which will raise it's rank and increase it's base strength as a sword.

Shunsui, on the flip side, was already blackened and, given what we currently know, most likely hit it's peak in terms of it's strength. Enma still has the potential to become Supreme Grade.