One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Lol during my re-read after I post I noticed that lol.....Post wasn’t all that articulate, it was a rant post.

But yea Ellente is trolling. It’s hard to even follow the root of the argument he’s making; overall it’s heavy bias & prefrenced in Luffy’s performance Post Time Skip.

He's been a Luffy hater for a while, just finally showing his true colors to everyone.

It's ridiculous how you even say Luffy's growth is stunted from the Gomu no Mi with a straight face. It's trolling, full stop.

 

[roggie]

1. You guys keep preaching about this hardness- prove it. if he could make himself harder to some substantial degree, it would've come up by now.

2. He's not huffing and puffing on the ground after one stretch but it's obviously going to be more taxing/slower than him just punching someone. If this is about regular luffy punch versus fruit luffy punch. Regular should be stronger due to being made of a harder material.

3. My assertion of his fruit preforming poorly in battle was based off of previous encounters he has had. How real world physics could play a role in coming to that conclusion is beyond me... You have to actually confirm MY reasoning, not just make up your own, and counter it. Otherwise you end up pointlessly rambling.

1. Easy. If he wasn't hard enough he would bend or be compressed when he punched. Should i continue?

2. Regular luffy wouldn't have the same reach, the same speed nor the same power. You are the one making mental gymnastics. You just thought of something and are trying to prove it no matter what, even though you have no evidence, manga or reality, for your claims.

3. I didn't make it up to prove anything. I was just giving examples to make it easier for you to understand. You were the one to give the immobile dummy example and alleged Luffy's powers doesn't translate well to an actual battle. So, show us where exactly it didn't translate well. Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't against Enel, Katakuri or anyone that i remember.

I don't understand why you want regular Luffy to be stronger than DF Luffy and why doest it matter.
We all know devil fruits are not that important. Otherwise Roger wouldn't be PK nor Shanks would be an Yonko. Garp etc
But Luffy would be long dead if he wasnt rubber.
Also, Oda wanted to create a character that stretched, he is not worried by what it means in relation to regular Luffy. He will be made as strong as necessary and that's it.

 

[M3J]

Zoro atleast managed to have some effect on Kaido unlike Luffy.

If Big Mom hadn't been there I'm sure a 1v1 between Zoro and Kaido would have atleast lasted for a couple of hours. And Kaido would probably have atleast 2 or 3 scars at the end of it.

Barely anything regardless, so it's highly doubtful Mihawk would have stopped Kaidou with one or two slashes. Nothing so far was able to do much damage to Kaidou or take him down, but Oden came the closest to that, and even then.

If Luffy, Kidd, Law, and Killer weren't there, then Kaidou would have decimated ZOro within half an hour. Maybe one scar at most to show for it, but he'd have won. Easily.

 

[LadyVados]

Zoro sliced Kaido before, and Kaido did not say anything about CoC

That didn't leave a scar

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

To say luffy had no effect on kaido when 1 he displayed advanced haki cladding and kaido saw roger/oden/shanks/whitebeard/rocks when he got to the roof top

he actually knocked down kaido a few times
Kaido has accumulated a lot of damage just takes a ton to take him out

 

[LadyVados]

Luffy was making Kaido bleed even from his non CoC attacks

A panel of Luffy WITHOUT COC making Kaido bleed and Kaido himself saying Luffy damaged him...

You need to stop being so ridiculous lol

Also LMAO why are you using this panel. This is Kaido in HUMAN form. Kaido's crazy durability comes from his devil fruit.

Show me a scan of Luffy making Kaido bleed in his Hybrid form or even his Dragon form for that matter. Making Human Kaido bleed is nothing special, fodder Scabbards could run him through.

Maybe one scar at most to show for it, but he'd have won. Easily.

I'd argue if it leaves him with a lifelong scar and his him vomit gallons of blood like he did after Dead Man's Game it could not be called an easy victory.

To say luffy had no effect on kaido when 1 he displayed advanced haki cladding and kaido saw roger/oden/shanks/whitebeard/rocks when he got to the roof top

he actually knocked down kaido a few times
Kaido has accumulated a lot of damage just takes a ton to take him out

Knocking them down =/= damging someone.

Again Human Kaido is a weakling. He was seriously injured by Kiku who is Mid YC level at best.

Human Kaido is well... human. Fodder can damage Whitebeard. Same energy. The crazy durability comes from his DF.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Also LMAO why are you using this panel. This is Kaido in HUMAN form. Kaido's crazy durability comes from his devil fruit.

Show me a scan of Luffy making Kaido bleed in his Hybrid form or even his Dragon form for that matter. Making Human Kaido bleed is nothing special, fodder Scabbards could run him through.

I'd argue if it leaves him with a lifelong scar and his him vomit gallons of blood like he did after Dead Man's Game it could not be called an easy victory.


Knocking them down =/= damging someone.

Again Human Kaido is a weakling. He was seriously injured by Kiku who is Mid YC level at best.

Human Kaido is well... human. Fodder can damage Whitebeard. Same energy. The crazy durability comes from his DF.

look the sections

when has luffy's attacks actually shown that much. visible outer damage, it's mostly making baddies cough blood
kaido is ridiculously durable in his regular human form even , he took slahes and attacks from both killer and zero with no damage, so no his durability isn't df dependent

 

[Ellenate]

Usopp ain't got shit to do with your initial argument

neither did luffy being physically competent... but y'all really ran off with that one.

It's almost like the opponents he's fighting are getting stronger or something and Luffy and his crew are lagging slightly behind. It took years for some of the strongest characters to reach the point where Luffy is. The fact that he (and his crew) have grown to the point they are currently at is a miracle in itself. He's been fighting end-game level opponents since he left Dressrosa. He's not at the level to solo anyone like that just yet.

Just say i was right and keep it pushing.

Point is, Luffy's fruit doesn't weaken him in any way, shape, or form.

what do you consider the gear drawbacks then?

nor does he need to focus solely on haki, especially when he's on the path to becoming one of the foremost users.

"He doesn't need to focus on haki, he's going to be great at haki."


Don't confuse him having rare haki with being good at it.

But I'll play along for now.

as long as you don't get in your feelings i'm cool with that.

1. Easy. If he wasn't hard enough he would bend or be compressed when he punched. Should i continue?

Go for it. Being proven wrong isn't going to hurt me.

2. Regular luffy wouldn't have the same reach, the same speed nor the same power. You are the one making mental gymnastics. You just thought of something and are trying to prove it no matter what, even though you have no evidence, manga or reality, for your claims.

That reach comes with having to first placing his arms in huge blind spots and then having them be huge targets while retracting.
What speed? he has to charge up then retract to stretch properly. him just jabbing would be faster/safer
I already agreed to the power increase just that the hoops he has to jump through aren't worth the effort.

if you can't conceptualize luffy's abilities into scenarios outside the scope of the manga. i don't know how you could even begin to have a discussion about his powers. at that point your just citing the manga (...which fights are highly situational and usually don't even come down to skill).

3. I didn't make it up to prove anything. I was just giving examples to make it easier for you to understand.

You made up some reasoning then counter it as if it was my own to prove your point.

perhaps you weren't aware of this, while doing so, but that is what happened.

You were the one to give the immobile dummy example and alleged Luffy's powers doesn't translate well to an actual battle. So, show us where exactly it didn't translate well. Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't against Enel, Katakuri or anyone that i remember.

the katakuri fight-

saw him be utterly out gunned, by a superior fruit that did everything his did, but better. the fact that luffy refused to change s*** up and stuck with the same old routine- goes into how his fruit stunted his growth. had he only had haki, he'd been forced to actually think, and come up with something better than throwing inferior version of katakuri's attacks back at him.


The enel fight-

wouldn't have gotten his arm stuck in that golden ball if he wasn't for him stretching his arms blindly at his opponent. a habit formed due to his df.
the whole thing was made worse by him not being able to control the length of his arm (from it being rubber) to gain better control of the ball.
then there's the whole, having a fighting style that is predictable af, against some one who can see the future.


the whole fight ended with enel making himself into a huge a** target and throwing attacks at luffy that was already proven to be ineffective.

there's also the obvious things, gear drawbacks, but do i really need to go over them?

 

[roggie]

@Ellenate i just remembered something that should end this discussion for good. Boxing gloves.

Did you know that fighters uses gloves mostly to protect their hands?

"The reason why boxers wear gloves is to protect their hands so that they don’t break them when throwing punches. This was the initial purpose for gloves late in the 19th century back when boxing was more of a hobby and people needed their hands for blue collar work, according to ESPN’s Nigel Collins. However, this also incentivizes them to throw harder punches and go for more headshots, which puts fighters at a higher risk for irreparable brain damage. One Washington State University study found that people could generate 27.9 percent more movement when punching a heavy bag with boxing gloves than with their bare first."

You can check it yourself. There are countless pages about the topic.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Also LMAO why are you using this panel. This is Kaido in HUMAN form. Kaido's crazy durability comes from his devil fruit.

Show me a scan of Luffy making Kaido bleed in his Hybrid form or even his Dragon form for that matter.

Luffy making Kaido bleed in both dragon AND hybrid form. God your annoying, it's like you don't even read the manga

 

[Ellenate]

Boxing gloves.

Did you know that fighters uses gloves mostly to protect their hands?

"The reason why boxers wear gloves is to protect their hands so that they don’t break them when throwing punches. This was the initial purpose for gloves late in the 19th century back when boxing was more of a hobby and people needed their hands for blue collar work, according to ESPN’s Nigel Collins. However, this also incentivizes them to throw harder punches and go for more headshots, which puts fighters at a higher risk for irreparable brain damage. One Washington State University study found that people could generate 27.9 percent more movement when punching a heavy bag with boxing gloves than with their bare first."

You can check it yourself. There are countless pages about the topic.

Yes, without the fear of recoil, luffy would instinctually hit harder (kind of a guts and berserker armor situation).

...but using such an argument would be highly hypocritical given-

3. Maybe in real world physics. But Luffy is not real. He is "magical". He is a fantastic being not tied to the laws of our reality...

You just thought of something and are trying to prove it no matter what, even though you have no evidence, manga or reality, for your claims.

Based on your reasoning, you'd have to show this phenomena happening in manga; for it to be acceptable.

@Ellenate i just remembered something that should end this discussion for good.

Eh, a discussion with me could go on forever- barring i don't lose interest.

Also-

You can take back what you said. Though you'd have to acknowledge my claims about stamina and the such (...it was a lot of stuff) negatively impacting a fruit-luffy's advantages over a non-fruit-luffy.

 

[albertwv]

Why are people still wasting their time to one troll about how Non DF Luffy > DF Luffy.

OR

Wasting their time explaining Luffy damage on Kaido > Zolo damage on Kaido.

Just move on past these trolls who won't change their mind. Let them be in their fantasy land.

 

[roggie]

...but using such an argument would be highly hypocritical given-

Not at all. It was only to show you that your reasoning don't apply in either situation.

Personally i don't worry so much about the manga physics. I know Oda don't so why should i? As long as he is coherent with whatever he shows I have no complaints.

Your last argument, about the stamina being more taxative, i don't see any logic. You are comparing a normal punch with a stronger, faster, longer punch. It would be expected to be more tiring, no? But even then we don't know and it doesn't matter. Because we know little about devil fruits. Shouldn't create a bird cage, become a castle, a mountain, freeze an ocean be more taxative than change stuff from place (Law)? And yet...
Ultimately, people fight for long hours, days, in the OP verse ... stamina for hakiless stuff seems to be the least of their problems.

Let Luffy give his punches however he wants man

 

[Ellenate]

You are comparing a normal punch with a stronger, faster, longer punch. It would be expected to be more tiring, no?

Yes.

But even then we don't know and it doesn't matter.

We do, cause it's commonsense (as shown by you above). It matters cause it would negatively affect his overall performance.

Because we know little about devil fruits.

That's the interesting part-

I've said that luffy's fruit is mainly defensive and those protective perks come at no effort on his part but-

The offense side is largely luffy pushing his fruit to do something it wasn't meant to. which would explain all the harsh drawbacks. No one else has a haki lockout from using their fruit.

Because we know little about devil fruits. Shouldn't create a bird cage, become a castle, a mountain, freeze an ocean be more taxative than change stuff from place (Law)? And yet...

I don't think anyone else in the manga pushes their fruit like luffy does. if you could find a proper example...

Ultimately, people fight for long hours, days, in the OP verse

There are:

- Logias who can produce their element effortlessly.
- Zoans who just refuse to die for some reason.

i can see how a fight between them could last a long time but luffy is tired after only 5 minutes of combat. If he would've kept his fruit as purely defensive and developed haki for his offense he could go that distance. Him trying to 5 head his df requires way too much effort and goes back to it stunting his development.

Let Luffy give his punches however he wants man

I dream of a more efficient luffy.

 

[roggie]

Yes.





We do, cause it's commonsense (as shown by you above). It matters cause it would negatively affect his overall performance.





That's the interesting part-

I've said that luffy's fruit is mainly defensive and those protective perks come at no effort on his part but-

The offense side is largely luffy pushing his fruit to do something it wasn't meant to. which would explain all the harsh drawbacks. No one else has a haki lockout from using their fruit.





I don't think anyone else in the manga pushes their fruit like luffy does. if you could find a proper example...




There are:

- Logias who can produce their element effortlessly.
- Zoans who just refuse to die for some reason.

i can see how a fight between them could last a long time but luffy is tired after only 5 minutes of combat. If he would've kept his fruit as purely defensive and developed haki for his offense he could go that distance. Him trying to 5 head his df requires way too much effort and goes back to it stunting his development.





I dream of a more efficient luffy.

If all you wanted to say was gomu gomu is not that a great fruit, you should have said earlier. I agree hahaha

I always thought Luffy does miracles with it and i agree its kinda unfair. Doflamingo and Katakuri seems to extract a lot from their fruit though have little drawbacks.

Still, Luffy would be dead if he started his journey without his fruit.

 

[XXGenesis]

Why are people still wasting their time to one troll about how Non DF Luffy > DF Luffy.

OR

Wasting their time explaining Luffy damage on Kaido > Zolo damage on Kaido.

Just move on past these trolls who won't change their mind. Let them be in their fantasy land.

The mods I understand them replying. The veteran members, you’ll think they would learn to ignore.

If I’m honest OP high tiers are in w shambles right now imo. It’s all because of this Rooftop fight, Kaido’s endurance, & Haki mastery.

Also I’m starting to realize all commander aren’t equal, despite the fan ranking of Vc1,etc
Katakuri may be VC1 but I don’t think he compares well with Ben Beckman or Marco. Possibly even King

 

[Pirate Queen]

The mods I understand them replying. The veteran members, you’ll think they would learn to ignore.

If I’m honest OP high tiers are in w shambles right now imo. It’s all because of this Rooftop fight, Kaido’s endurance, & Haki mastery.

Also I’m starting to realize all commander aren’t equal, despite the fan ranking of Vc1,etc
Katakuri may be VC1 but I don’t think he compares well with Ben Beckman or Marco. Possibly even King

What has King done to make you think Katakuri isn't stronger? Genuinely curious

 

[Ellenate]

If all you wanted to say was gomu gomu is not that a great fruit, you should have said earlier. I agree hahaha

I always thought Luffy does miracles with it and i agree its kinda unfair. Doflamingo and Katakuri seems to extract a lot from their fruit though have little drawbacks.

Still, Luffy would be dead if he started his journey without his fruit.

I did, but-

You were sensible enough to not die on the hill. So there's no need to go any further.

May those souls, who perished on mount salty, find peace someday.

*pulls out the ceremonial morton*

 

[albertwv]

The mods I understand them replying. The veteran members, you’ll think they would learn to ignore.

If I’m honest OP high tiers are in w shambles right now imo. It’s all because of this Rooftop fight, Kaido’s endurance, & Haki mastery.

Also I’m starting to realize all commander aren’t equal, despite the fan ranking of Vc1,etc
Katakuri may be VC1 but I don’t think he compares well with Ben Beckman or Marco. Possibly even King

I simply ignore them now.
Well we rank the Yonko Commanders by what seems appropriate, but of course within their own rankings, they may not be entirely equal.
YC1- YC3 or YC4 is a good tier list to place characters appropriately. Before that, it was harder to accurately gauge a character's PL.
Warlords are just to random to have a tier list
VA's are a good example, but even within the VAs there are weak and strong.
So YC tier list is great.

Initially, I personally don't think Katakuri is that strong compared to the other YC1s, BUT that is because I am heavily biased using his bounty and how he was the first YC1 to be defeated.
His bounty is just a little bit higher than Jack's, that's why I initially thought Kata was around Queen's level and weaker than the rest of the YC1s.

King is hard to properly gauge but he should be stronger than Queen even if it's by a bit.
I don't see Katakuri stronger than Marcos.
Beckman, I do not bother to rank but I assume he is YC1.
Shiyruu (if he is the right hand man of BB) well he is a tough one to rank, people like to think he is because he has a sword and will most likely fight Zolo, that is what some people think. We'll see.
Marcos has been able to push the Admirals more than anyone else besides WB of course. So I place Marcos as the strongest YC1 also because of his experience fighting the Roger Pirates and being on WB's ship for so long.

 

[M3J]

Still, Luffy would be dead if he started his journey without his fruit.

Debatable as he'd have probably found a different fighting style. Plus, he did lose to Sabo and Ace because he didn't have control over his rubber body, not because he was weak (though it's up for debate if he was weaker than them).