One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

Commanders as in the Top 3/4? Like the Sweet Commanders, the Calamities and the 1-5 WB Commanders?
Or are you talking about the Oven, Daifuku, Peros, Flying 6, 6-16 WB Commanders, etc.?

Assuming you are just talking about the Top 3/4 Commanders.
I would say WB before MF war happened.
I seriously believe if The WB Pirates with both Ace and Thatch alive & a heatlhy old WB, had invaded MF in a leveled playing field, they would have won with serious casaulties but nonetheless won the war.
That goes against any other Yonko crew as well. Say WBP vs BP or BMP or RHP.

As I mentioned before, I do not like to rate the RHP or BBP Commanders until we have seen more of them. IDC what the VC says about Beckman, until we see him in action, I wont rate him near Shanks' level.

I do wish to see more of Jozu and Vista. I still think they are the strongest YC2s.

Ehh, in Marineford, Garp and Sengoku didn't even fight. Garp alone can stalemate WB

Mihawk never fought seriously either.

Doflamingo was trolling for the most part.

Boa Hancock was arguably a detriment more than anything, due to her connection with Luffy.

If we take all of these into account, a full on war between Marines and peak WB pirates would've been a low-mid diff win for Marines, if both sides were serious right from the get go.
Marines not only had the numbers advantage and home field advantage, but also higher quality fighters.

Old Garp ~ Old WB
Sengoku + 3 admirals > 5 YCs + BB (pre fruit and betrayal)
Vice admirals ~ commanders 6-16

That leaves Shichibukai without any real challenge

Ace was YC3 at age 19 not, 17. He took a whole year to reach Saboady which means he was age 18 by the time he reached the New World. This was revealed in the Ace novel.

Then he travelled some more and stalemated Jinbe.

He always had less potential than Luffy as his growth rate wad not like Luffy and his fighting skill despite having a logia was low.

Ok, then he was 18 when he was YC3 tier, not 19.
Why? Because we know that he fought Yamato 4 years before the current time. And he fought Jinbe before he fought Yamato


His fighting skill was pretty good.
It's more of a case where it couldn't be highlighted well, since he died before haki was established properly. His fighting style is pretty much how every other logias fought before haki was solidly established - including admirals, who should have good mastery in haki


As for potential. Debatable.
He was Roger's son, his insane growth rate was especially noted by the government. He learned haki on his own and reached YC3 tier at 18, without any training from veterans.

 

[M3J]

Ace was YC3 at age 19 not, 17. He took a whole year to reach Saboady which means he was age 18 by the time he reached the New World. This was revealed in the Ace novel.

Then he travelled some more and stalemated Jinbe.

He always had less potential than Luffy as his growth rate wad not like Luffy and his fighting skill despite having a logia was low.

Him stalemating Jinbei was pretty impressive as a FIRE devil fruit user against a water user who could use water in the air as well. I think this shows that he had a great potential, especially as someone who kept getting attention as a rookie. If he wasn't that good, then why would Whitebeard groom him to be the next Pirate King?

 

[aberick]

"His fightning skill was pretty good", lmao, enel had a pretty good fightning style too, i guess? haha ace in the end was YC3 - YC2 max, probably sabo is around YC1, he would never win against any YC1 , like katakuri or king, based in what he show

 

[HereNThere]

I'm struggling with where the hell to put Ace in my tier table. He really does throw a wrench into properly powerscaling. I know it wasn't a fight to the death or anything, but him clashing with Yamato is... ugh.

Yeah... as it stands I have him above King and Katakuri in part because Yamato is even higher than that. It feels weird to have him so high, but the little bit we do know about him kinda necessitates it. Whitebeard's crew was just straight up STACKED.

Keep in mind, Yamato most likely wasn't as strong as he is currently back when he and Ace fought. Hell, that Ace hadn't even gotten his gains from the WB crew yet.

I'd say Ace was likely somewhere between Pre-Katakuri Luffy and Post-Katakuri Luffy level before his death. Basically on the cusp of major growth, but not quite there yet. This would thematically as it would mean that Luffy would have recently surpassed Ace by doing what Ace couldn't do yet, basically run-up in Wano and tear crap up. And, of course, had he not died, he likely would've been current Yamato's level.

 

[albertwv]

You all are basing Ace off on his "potential" instead of actual feats. Lol.
Let's stop with the hypothetical.
Ace was not YC3 at at the time he fought Jimbe. I dont even consider Jimbei YC3, more like YC4. I just dont see Jmbei defeating Doffy or Jack. Instead of fighting Jack a YC3 he fought Whos Who a Yonko Executive. Fair he won.

Now "if Ace had lived", so what. We're talking about his strength at the time he died not if he had lived.
We have seen how the other YC1s fight and their skills and arsenal. It is ridiculous to think Ace is on their level. Katakuri would massacre Ace like he was killing Luffy.

Yeah WB and Shanks had high hopes for Ace, they knew his potential, but they both felt he was not ready. The power and command of him taking over the 2nd Division got into his head thinking he was stronger than he actually was. He was a hothead who was gonna get himself killed, look how he went after WB, Kaido, and BB. He was lucky he didnt run into Kaido, if not then his potential would be dead.

 

[AmitDS]

You all are basing Ace off on his "potential" instead of actual feats. Lol.
Let's stop with the hypothetical.
Ace was not YC3 at at the time he fought Jimbe. I dont even consider Jimbei YC3, more like YC4. I just dont see Jmbei defeating Doffy or Jack. Instead of fighting Jack a YC3 he fought Whos Who a Yonko Executive. Fair he won.

Now "if Ace had lived", so what. We're talking about his strength at the time he died not if he had lived.
We have seen how the other YC1s fight and their skills and arsenal. It is ridiculous to think Ace is on their level. Katakuri would massacre Ace like he was killing Luffy.

We're all agreeing that his on-panel stuff is shaky, what's with the hyper-aggression @us simply mentioning that we believe he would've been stronger had he lived? It's not like we're saying he was at that level at the time of his death (Well I wasn't, at least). It's Oda for the most part who made Ace's feats more retroactive/posthumous and a lot of it was from statements, sidestories, etc. instead of on-panel clashes/fights.

Anyway, I disagree that Jinbe would be YC4, and while he did fight WW when Sanji/Zoro fought Queen/King, it should be noted that his fight was mid-diff at worst for him and he's still up and active while Sanji's/Zoro's fights were extreme-diff and they're currently down and out (for now at least).
I think this is Oda's way of conveying that Jinbe can fight and possibly defeat YCs as well, at least in a similar manner to Sanji/Zoro (extreme-diff).

Imo this was a good decision on Oda's part to have him fight WW instead of say for eg. Jack, resulting in a mid-diff fight, compared to a high/extreme-diff fight. I say this because, let's say he fought Jack and it ended extreme-diff. Jack, being the 'Dragdown' and the notably weakest Calamity, driving Jinbe to an extreme-diff fight, compared to Queen/King, the clearly superior Calamities, driving Sanji/Zoro to extreme-diff, would've led to a lot of Jinbe bashing and disparaging lol. In other words, Oda, in a way, preserved Jinbe's hype/power level, through his mid-diff fight against WW imo.

 

[albertwv]

Anyway, I disagree that Jinbe would be YC4, and while he did fight WW when Sanji/Zoro fought Queen/King, it should be noted that his fight was mid-diff at worst for him and he's still up and active while Sanji's/Zoro's fights were extreme-diff and they're currently down and out (for now at least).
I think this is Oda's way of conveying that Jinbe can fight and possibly defeat YCs as well, at least in a similar manner to Sanji/Zoro (extreme-diff).

Imo this was a good decision on Oda's part to have him fight WW instead of say for eg. Jack, resulting in a mid-diff fight, compared to a high/extreme-diff fight. I say this because, let's say he fought Jack and it ended extreme-diff. Jack, being the 'Dragdown' and the notably weakest Calamity, driving Jinbe to an extreme-diff fight, compared to Queen/King, the clearly superior Calamities, driving Sanji/Zoro to extreme-diff, would've led to a lot of Jinbe bashing and disparaging lol. In other words, Oda, in a way, preserved Jinbe's hype/power level, through his mid-diff fight with against WW imo.

And I disagree, I think Jimbei should have fought Jack, it would have made more sense. At least in how we could compare Jimbei to the rest of the Trio and also to give Jack a worthwhile fight. It was heavily disappointing on how Jackk's defeat was handled compared to the rest of the Calamities.
Jimbei vs Jack would have been better than JImbei vs WW and Jack vs Dog.

Although, the minks deserved their revenge, I think it was already handled at the rooftop before fighting Kaido. No need for another showdown.
And WW vs Jimbei was a great fight tbh, but I dont think it was enough to push Jimbei as Jack may have. Then we would see Jimbei is actually YC3 level had he fought Jack.

WW could have been handled by say another Scabbard, maybe Dog, since Cat handled Peros. Or anyone else could have handled WW.
Also, I strongly believe Sanji is YC2 and Zolo YC1. I dont care if they defeated their opponents, to me they are still within that level and doesnt automatically make them stronger/bumping them up a level. For example, I dont think Sanji is YC1 now that he defeated Queen or Zolo a YC1+ because he defeated King.

The way Oda handled the match ups and the fights for this whole raid was disappointing. I wonder if people felt disappointed in the Skypiea, Enies Lobby, Thriller Bark, and Dressrosa match ups at the time of those arcs like they do now for this arc.

 

[GL_Nova]

Just for clarification this is just my feelings from what we have seen so far in the series, like you know if/when Luffy fights Shanks and or Blackbeard they will just as tough or even tougher than Kaido.

It's just hard to place someone like Shanks who so far has;
Stared down a fish
Offscreen clashed with Whitebeard
Blocked a single punch from Akainu

When you compare that to the sheer powerhouse Kaido and Big Mom have been I'm going to rank him lower right now, and you know Luffy is going to beat Kaido by the end of this arc.

So you’re gonna ignore that he stopped Kaido cold, and we know he chose to fight about it lol

 

[Mopopolis]

We don't know what happened, Was it Kaido fighting Shanks? was it ships? did Kaido do something and just send a few ships and Jack like he did with Zou?

No one knows what happened, All we know is that whatever Shanks did drove Kaido away, and he the Red Hair Pirates turned up at Marineford unharmed.

 

[grey matter]

"His fightning skill was pretty good", lmao, enel had a pretty good fightning style too, i guess? haha ace in the end was YC3 - YC2 max, probably sabo is around YC1, he would never win against any YC1 , like katakuri or king, based in what he show

Dude, if you wanna address me, at least tag me in there

I never said Ace would win against King or Katakuri. I just said that he would operate in the same tier, generally speaking

You all are basing Ace off on his "potential" instead of actual feats. Lol.
Let's stop with the hypothetical.
Ace was not YC3 at at the time he fought Jimbe. I dont even consider Jimbei YC3, more like YC4. I just dont see Jmbei defeating Doffy or Jack. Instead of fighting Jack a YC3 he fought Whos Who a Yonko Executive. Fair he won.

Now "if Ace had lived", so what. We're talking about his strength at the time he died not if he had lived.
We have seen how the other YC1s fight and their skills and arsenal. It is ridiculous to think Ace is on their level. Katakuri would massacre Ace like he was killing Luffy.

Yeah WB and Shanks had high hopes for Ace, they knew his potential, but they both felt he was not ready. The power and command of him taking over the 2nd Division got into his head thinking he was stronger than he actually was. He was a hothead who was gonna get himself killed, look how he went after WB, Kaido, and BB. He was lucky he didnt run into Kaido, if not then his potential would be dead.

The potential came into the picture only when talking about "how strong would he be, if he was alive".

Jinbe would definitely beat Jack, considering his feats against Who's Who and BM. It wasn't like WW, arguably the strongest Tobiroppo, gave Jinbe an extreme diff or anything. Jinbe just mid-high diff'd the dude, and is still up and running.


There is no hypothetical when it comes to his actual feats. Which includes stalemating a YC3 tier when he was just a rookie, and stalemating Yamato when he was 18.
You claiming he's YC3 tier at best, when he died, is what is a running on assumptions and extreme low balling. He was already that level when he was a rookie.

 

[Idkwhatanameis]

To be clear I still think Sanji is YC1 as well as Zoro with neither of them at YC1+ until their recovery and learning how to use their new abilities.

Sanji KO’d queen fairly easy with that last attack and if it sent queen flying I’m pretty sure it would be enough for the next teir.

Also at this point I put Katakuri and Marco at YC1+ with King being in the same teir as Zoro and Sanji. Big Mom clearly has the better crew with less killing intent. Kaidos crew seems more intimidating based on everything we’ve seen but Big Mom just has better chess pieces. Katakuri in a way basically stuck to Luffy so he wouldn’t get to Big Mom, while we have King who pretty much left that job up to Jack which is sad. Had King been on that rooftop this would be another story. Zoro made it his job to protect Luffy as much as he could whereas I don’t see that at all from King.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

You all are basing Ace off on his "potential" instead of actual feats. Lol.
Let's stop with the hypothetical.
Ace was not YC3 at at the time he fought Jimbe. I dont even consider Jimbei YC3, more like YC4. I just dont see Jmbei defeating Doffy or Jack. Instead of fighting Jack a YC3 he fought Whos Who a Yonko Executive. Fair he won.

Now "if Ace had lived", so what. We're talking about his strength at the time he died not if he had lived.
We have seen how the other YC1s fight and their skills and arsenal. It is ridiculous to think Ace is on their level. Katakuri would massacre Ace like he was killing Luffy.

Yeah WB and Shanks had high hopes for Ace, they knew his potential, but they both felt he was not ready. The power and command of him taking over the 2nd Division got into his head thinking he was stronger than he actually was. He was a hothead who was gonna get himself killed, look how he went after WB, Kaido, and BB. He was lucky he didnt run into Kaido, if not then his potential would be dead.

That wasn’t it , he was ready to be a commander , he just wasn’t ready for Blackbeard
Blackbeard pre fruit was strong enough to be a commander
Ace thought he was still facing no yami yami Blackbeard and he’d have fared okay against that Blackbeard
Whitebeard told him not to because he had a bad feeling. It because he didn’t trust his strength , and shanks said not yet cause he knew Blackbeard true nature

 

[Crimson Ice]

Using. Enma.

Jesus

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2021 ---

@Crimson Ice : "Zoro used regular haki"

It has been confirmed that Enma uses Zoro's haki...What did this prove? You quoted and @ me just for this post to mean nothing.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2021 ---

We had a whole discussion 2 weeks ago regarding Ace lol.
There are some extremists who believe Ace is YC1/YC1+ (LMAO).
Dont kid yourself he is NOT near YC1.
Best bet was YC3. Ace is not on Kata's level. Ace's haki was nowhere near great. His best feat was fighting equally with Jimbei.

People try to oversell the Ace vs Aokiji (im bringing up it right now to shut it down)
It was NOTHING special. His Fire DF countered Aokiji's Ice DF. Fire vs Ice literally. That was it.
What Jozu did was more impressive, how he managed to make Aokiji bleed.
Not only that but we saw how Aokiji managed to fight Akainu for 10 days, who CLEARLY outranks Ace in terms of power, DF, and haki.

Marcos > Jozu >/= Vista > Ace > Rest of WB Commanders
That is the ranking among the WBP commanders. Anybody who says otherwise about Ace's placement/strength clearly is wrong.

No Mr. Anime Filler,

 

[grey matter]

Who do you think are the fastest characters in the series?

Note:
A list of fastest characters, not taking into account CQC and whatnot. Not including short distance blitz either (like Kaido using thunder bagua, Zoro using Asura etc)
They have to be able to maintain this speed for a reasonable period of time


My list:

1. Kizaru
Speed of light. Enough said.
Can he change his trajectory as "light" itself. Or should he revert to human and then change to light again for this?

2. Enel
Speed of lightning
Maybe he should be counted as the fastest, since Kizaru need to matrialize before changing trajectory?

3. Cavendish (Hakuba)
So fast that he creates a whirlwind with his movement speed

4. King (offense mode)
So fast that he basically disappeared in front of Zoro

5. Sanji/G4 Luffy
Sanji moved so fast that he basically disappeared in front of Queen.
G4 Luffy did the same to Doflamingo in Dresrossa arc

6. Marco
Was shown to be really fast against King. Fought well against Kizaru

7. Brook
Was said to be the fastest Strawhat by Oda. But this was before Sanji got his Germa bio and Luffy got G4 IIRC

8. Jozu
Was especially noted for his speed and strength

9. Doflamingo
Pretty fast in his own right, can use strings to propell his speed further and fly.

10. Bellamy
Pretty fast with his spring force


Hopefully I didn't miss anyone. What do you guys think?
Didn't include Yonkos, Roger, Garp, Mihawk, Akainu etc. Since there is no evidence they are particularly fast. They just have good CQC to fight well.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2021 ---

I forgot Niji

Should be 6 or 7 in this list

 

[Ero-Sanji]

Who do you think are the fastest characters in the series?

Note:
A list of fastest characters, not taking into account CQC and whatnot. Not including short distance blitz either (like Kaido using thunder bagua, Zoro using Asura etc)
They have to be able to maintain this speed for a reasonable period of time


My list:

1. Kizaru
Speed of light. Enough said.
Can he change his trajectory as "light" itself. Or should he revert to human and then change to light again for this?

2. Enel
Speed of lightning
Maybe he should be counted as the fastest, since Kizaru need to matrialize before changing trajectory?

3. Cavendish (Hakuba)
So fast that he creates a whirlwind with his movement speed

4. King (offense mode)
So fast that he basically disappeared in front of Zoro

5. Sanji/G4 Luffy
Sanji moved so fast that he basically disappeared in front of Queen.
G4 Luffy did the same to Doflamingo in Dresrossa arc

6. Marco
Was shown to be really fast against King. Fought well against Kizaru

7. Brook
Was said to be the fastest Strawhat by Oda. But this was before Sanji got his Germa bio and Luffy got G4 IIRC

8. Jozu
Was especially noted for his speed and strength

9. Doflamingo
Pretty fast in his own right, can use strings to propell his speed further and fly.

10. Bellamy
Pretty fast with his spring force


Hopefully I didn't miss anyone. What do you guys think?
Didn't include Yonkos, Roger, Garp, Mihawk, Akainu etc. Since there is no evidence they are particularly fast. They just have good CQC to fight well.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2021 ---

I forgot Niji

Should be 6 or 7 in this list

Interesting list. Very glad that you included Jozu, but I would put Doflamingo above him since he stopped Jozu dead in his tracks without Jozu realizing that he was on his back. Not until it was too late.

I would also argue that Kaido is fast enough to crack top ten. He's fast enough to nullify Luffy's foresight. Out with Bellamy.

Finally if Marco is on the list then Rayleigh has to be on it as well. With the exact same argument he fought well against Kizaru.


Regarding Ace vs. Luffy's growth rate. We're forgetting the fact that the only reason Luffy's as strong as he is is because of Ace's death. Without it, Luffy would have called the SH's back and they would have been wrecked effective immediately, simply because they can't keep their noses out of trouble. Matter of fact they wouldn't even have reached fishman island if it weren't for Kuma and Reyleigh.

I think Oda has given a pretty good answer to how strong Ace would've been if he was still alive. As strong as Sabo.

 

[grey matter]

Interesting list. Very glad that you included Jozu, but I would put Doflamingo above him since he stopped Jozu dead in his tracks without Jozu realizing that he was on his back. Not until it was too late.

I would also argue that Kaido is fast enough to crack top ten. He's fast enough to nullify Luffy's foresight. Out with Bellamy.

Finally if Marco is on the list then Rayleigh has to be on it as well. With the exact same argument he fought well against Kizaru.

Doflamingo caught Jozu off guard. Plus, getting someone caught in strings is combat speed/CQC.
My list is about pure speed

Kaido didn't make it into the list for the same reason. In fact I listed him as one of the examples of what I'm not considering - he has a short duration/distance blitz speed with his thunder bagua. It's a CQC feat IMO

Rayleigh vs Kizaru again falls into combat speed. If we're looking into combat speed/CQC, Roger would be the no1 IMO

 

[Ero-Sanji]

Doflamingo caught Jozu off guard. Plus, getting someone caught in strings is combat speed/CQC.
My list is about pure speed

Kaido didn't make it into the list for the same reason. In fact I listed him as one of the examples of what I'm not considering - he has a short duration/distance blitz speed with his thunder bagua. It's a CQC feat IMO

Rayleigh vs Kizaru again falls into combat speed. If we're looking into combat speed/CQC, Roger would be the no1 IMO

I understand, but then what do you base Jozu's speed on? His most impressive feats is catching Aokiji and Crocodile off guard. Also, on this level being caught off guard is not really a thing. Remember, Marco deduced that WB had fallen off precisely because Squardo caught him off guard. This guy used to fight off Ace in his sleep.

 

[grey matter]

I understand, but then what do you base Jozu's speed on? His most impressive feats is catching Aokiji and Crocodile off guard. Also, on this level being caught off guard is not really a thing. Remember, Marco deduced that WB had fallen off precisely because Squardo caught him off guard. This guy used to fight off Ace in his sleep.

Crocodile noted his incredible speed. Plus IIRC Oda highlighted it with his past, where he would steal food and run or something.

Point being, his speed was a focus. Maybe I'm reading too much into it lol, idk

 

[Fallou]

I think Kizaru and Enel are bound to be first…
Afterwards, it’s anyone’s guess, but Sanji’s speed does seem to rate pretty high. Kata and Luffy’s aren’t anything to laugh at either.

My problem with Kizaru having light speed is that no one should realistically be able to catch up with him, even with FS. Of course, this is OP, so we’re not too bound by real world rules.
And he could have bad reflexes, that would compensate. After all, other than his DF, he IS a slow guy (the way he talks, moves, etc…)

 

[Crimson Ice]

Enel isn't even top 20 in speed.