Canon Suzaku vs Erza Scarlet

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Axiomus

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So you have no proof for your claims. Thanks. Erza getting taken out when she's not ready for a fight and not guarding isn't proof that Suzaku can oneshot her at max defense or that Misaki is a weakling compared to her peers. The same Natsu that got oneshot by him came back and fought him equally when he was actually prepared.

God Serena completely counters Gajeel which is why the fight ended the way it did. Haku was holding back against Wendy and never used anything that seemed to be a finishing move. Aside from his abyss art, the most Suzaku could do was leave a small scratch on Selene's cheek and that was only because she was surprised to see him use Kurnugi's technique.

Yeah Suzaku hasn't been nerfed. But Natsu didn't get stronger either. He just got used to his movements and prepared himself to defend. Whether Suzaku's showings are good or bad doesn't really matter as everything he did in that arc scales to the other DDSK and vice versa. Even if you truly believe that Suzaku is superior to human Selene because of her act, that just means the other DDSK are also superior to her since they were stated to be as strong as Suzaku after the duel. And unless your position is that Suzaku got astronomically stronger in the few hours from the introduction of the other DDSK to the end of the labyrinth, then everything you think he did just scales to them (though getting ragdolled by dragon gods that are holding back isn't much of a feat. Neither is defeating one nerfed 72 times).
The proof is the fight. You asked for proof of
Suzaku having better attack power. All I hear are excuses, and they dont hold water. Erza was not unprepared. Suzaku literally said "prepare yourself" before he attacked, and she moved to blocked his hit. He broke her sword and oneshotted her. Mind you, Erza was more prepared for Suzaku than Misaki. When Misaki first hit her, Erza was busy wondering why her legs had no strength. Then she had no idea what was going on when the damage multiplied, and was taken completely off guard. It's insane to say that Erza was more prepared against Misaki than Suzaku.

God Serena countered Gajeel by....having better stats. Even if Haku wss holding back, Wendy still knocked him out. It's obvious Haku does not have Suzaku's stats in durability and attack power. Suzaku was cutting Selene's attacks, even after she got serious.

They literally had a conversation where Suzaku questioned if he got weaker, and Natsu said that he just got stronger cuz he train a lot. Natsu developed FDK dragon scales specifically to defend against Suzaku. My position is just that Suzaku has better stats than Misaki. They are on the same level when you account for all the effects of their magic. Kirin may very well just outstat Suzaku. We dont know what it takes to take down Kirin normally, because Laxus had to eat Elexion's power to beat Kirin. Kirin was beaten by his own power.

Just because the armors didn't have resistance to Misaki's attacks doesn't mean she's weaker when she still broke them. Especially when she was fighting an Erza that wasn't holding back for half the fight. Multiple times throughout the fight she broke Erza's armors while they were inside the dimension which means the multiplication effect wasn't active. Erza tanked Red lightning attacks from a Laxus she was in the middle of a fight with. Suzaku attacked them when a few panels prior all of them were joking around. They were even saying they don't need to be enemies a page before he attacked. Erza's reaction was a split second decision and she probably didn't expect him to be that strong so she didn't fortify her defenses.
Anything that hits as hard as base Laxus can break Erza's armours. Likely all of them, cuz Erza abandoned defense altogether. Misaki's initial attack wasnt strong enough to break black wing, until the damage was amplified. She had to get more serious to start breaking things like sea empress. I mean, this really just goes to show how much blue dimension contributes to Misaki's damage output.

Laxus can trade with Erza blow for blow until both run out of magic. Misaki cant. If meteor enchant scales to her enchanted katanas, then Misaki gets oneshotted by the fire and ice swords that Laxus tanked.
 
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MyaHeart35

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No She wasn't. Here's Erza when she's facing Misaki
Pissed off and ready for a fight. Here's Erza before Moving to Block Suzaku's attack
Completely different scenario.

God Serena had 2 elements that countered Gajeel's. And why does Wendy knocking out an opponent that's being held down mean he's weaker?


This is a mistranslation. Suzaku says that there's no way natsu could have gotten much stronger in a short period of time and Natsu agrees with with saying that training is an "accumulation" of daily practice. Nowhere in the raws does he say "It's cause I train everyday that I get so strong". Natsu explains that his "accumulation" is reading his fighting style and adapting to their movements. Also you've yet to say anything on Misaki's durability and speed compared to Suzaku. Do you think he's significantly higher there as well (even though Erza already showed she was faster than Suzaku.) There's no function of blue dimension that multiplies her defense or speed. Also you seem to be dodging the point with Kirin. I don't care what took him out. I'm talking about what he dished out. Unless you seriously think that a casual no named slash from Suzaku is stronger than every attack Kirin used combined, then that means Erza should be able to withstand Suzaku's attacks under normal circumstances since Suzaku ~ Kirin in attack power and Erza ~ Laxus in durability.

Well this isn't true at all. She broke Erza's heaven's wheel the first hit she got through her sword guard. This was before she started using her space bending attacks which was her getting serious. Also Misaki can't fight Erza to a stalemate because she's not as strong. Same reason Kirin couldn't put Laxus down. And I think it should be obvious to everyone reading that her meteor sword scales higher than the fire and ice blades. Erza wasn't even going all out when she used that attack against Laxus, but here she was so serious that her magic power overwrote the spell of her enemy.

Lastly I want to ask why the threshold for the equivalence of attack power is so low in your mind? You do realize that the ddsk being stated to be as strong as Suzaku means they should all be able to produce damage equal to his strongest attack right? If Misaki with a damage multiplier of 3600 could only produce damage on par with Suzaku's casual attacks, then there's no feasible way she would be considered as strong as him. Same with her durability. If her durability was so significantly lower than Suzaku's, she wouldn't be considered to be as strong.
No point going back to for with him friend. Also he does is wank Suzaku a tier above the BDSK even though he isn’t.
 

Axiomus

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No She wasn't. Here's Erza when she's facing Misaki
Pissed off and ready for a fight. Here's Erza before Moving to Block Suzaku's attack
Completely different scenario.

God Serena had 2 elements that countered Gajeel's. And why does Wendy knocking out an opponent that's being held down mean he's weaker?


This is a mistranslation. Suzaku says that there's no way natsu could have gotten much stronger in a short period of time and Natsu agrees with with saying that training is an "accumulation" of daily practice. Nowhere in the raws does he say "It's cause I train everyday that I get so strong". Natsu explains that his "accumulation" is reading his fighting style and adapting to their movements. Also you've yet to say anything on Misaki's durability and speed compared to Suzaku. Do you think he's significantly higher there as well (even though Erza already showed she was faster than Suzaku.) There's no function of blue dimension that multiplies her defense or speed. Also you seem to be dodging the point with Kirin. I don't care what took him out. I'm talking about what he dished out. Unless you seriously think that a casual no named slash from Suzaku is stronger than every attack Kirin used combined, then that means Erza should be able to withstand Suzaku's attacks under normal circumstances since Suzaku ~ Kirin in attack power and Erza ~ Laxus in durability.

Well this isn't true at all. She broke Erza's heaven's wheel the first hit she got through her sword guard. This was before she started using her space bending attacks which was her getting serious. Also Misaki can't fight Erza to a stalemate because she's not as strong. Same reason Kirin couldn't put Laxus down. And I think it should be obvious to everyone reading that her meteor sword scales higher than the fire and ice blades. Erza wasn't even going all out when she used that attack against Laxus, but here she was so serious that her magic power overwrote the spell of her enemy.

Lastly I want to ask why the threshold for the equivalence of attack power is so low in your mind? You do realize that the ddsk being stated to be as strong as Suzaku means they should all be able to produce damage equal to his strongest attack right? If Misaki with a damage multiplier of 3600 could only produce damage on par with Suzaku's casual attacks, then there's no feasible way she would be considered as strong as him. Same with her durability. If her durability was so significantly lower than Suzaku's, she wouldn't be considered to be as strong.
That's not Erza fighting Misaki. That's Erza staring at Misaki. This is Misaki transporting Erza into blue dimension. Erza is busy wondering why her legs don't have strength when Misaki hit her with her first move.


Then they leave the blue dimension, and Erza is caught completely by surprise when the damage kicks in.

It's super disengenous to claim that Erza was caught off guard when she blocked Suzaku's attack, but not when she was hit while focusing on why her legs have no strength. It's also super obvious that she was completely off guard when the damage kicked in. Your definition of being caught off guard is nonsense. I'll give a real life example: UFC fighters get caught off guard when they fight all the time. It's why they get knocked out. Just because they had a face-off where they look really mad at each other, doesn't mean they are on guard the entire time afterwards. Besides, Erza can't pour MP into her armors to make them more durable anyways. That's not even a thing.

Diamond dragon countered iron dragon by...being harder. Sure, the Light Dragon move threw Gajeel out of his shadows, but he didn't lose cuz of that. Let me put it this way. Being held down doesn't make you less durable. Wendy's attack knocked him out. Unless you think Wendy hits harder than Selene, Ignia, and Dogramag, then Suzaku has better durability. You realize that Wendy is the least injured out of everyone who fought a BDSK right? If their attacks were equal, then Wendy should be more durable than Laxus, Natsu, and Erza lol.

Look, you're either gonna have to break down the Japanese for me, or wait to argue this when the official scans come out. Heavens' Wheel breaks all the time. Unless Erza is using it to spam literally all her weapons at you, there's nothing impressive about dealing with heaven's wheel. Laxus specifically broke lightning empress armor despite its resistance to lightning. That's what made Erza think defense was useless against him. Sea Empress armour lasted a few hits against Misaki, and Erza never decided that defense was useless against her. It's not obvious at all that her meteor sword is stronger than her katanas. Her katanas have always outperformed armadura fairy, and doesn't even have the dragon slaying seal active. Erza went all out against Laxus after that statement. These exchanges is Erza going all out:
I don't understand the issue with Kirin. Kirin was toying with Laxus for most of the fight. He was more interested in feeding Laxus to Elexion than actually beating Laxus up. Do I think Kirin can hit as hard as Suzaku? If he goes all out, sure. He never did though. I mean, he claimed he was only using 10% of his power. Clearly he felt that he didn't get the chance to go all out. Also, Laxus is slightly more durable than Erza. He was less injured after their fight, and recovered faster.

What's there to say about Misaki's durability and speed? Suzaku is just as fast, and has better durability feats. Suzaku tanked attacks from Selene, Ignia, and Dogramag...without taking critical damage. He was never even defeated. He ran out of MP.

There is no threshold for equivalency. MP has never meant better attack power. Mages considered the same rank has never had equal attack power. Remember the Tartaros playing cards? You know who had the highest curse power among the 9 Demon Gates? Keith at 3000. You know who had the worst attack power? Also Keith. Silver called him the weakest demon gate. Spriggan 12 were on God Serena's level, and most of them don't even come close to his matching his attack power. Diabolos trio are on the same level, and they have different attack power. God Dragons are on the same level, and their attack power are vastly different. Nowhere is it said that the BDSK all have equal attack power. If Misaki is hitting just as hard as Suzaku's strongest moves and then her magic amplifies the damage by 3000, then they're not equal. Misaki is stronger. Which is what you're really trying to argue. I'm arguing that Suzaku and Misaki are actually equals.

No point going back to for with him friend. Also he does is wank Suzaku a tier above the BDSK even though he isn’t.
No lol. Wank is trying to argue that someone can tank 24 hours of worth of damage from an attack that previously oneshotted them. Suzaku hits much harder than Misaki upfront. Misaki does most of her damage by amplifying the lesser amount of damage she does in blue dimension. The overall result is relatively equal. Equal enough for them to be put on the same level.
 
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grey matter

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We saw the result already.

Even if Erza starts predicting Suzaku's movements like Natsu did, Natsu is the only character who is durable enough to tank attacks from Suzaku.

Erza has nothing in her arsenal which is more durable than her own body, she can't bring up something like Natsu did to make himself more tanky.


This "BDSK are equal" arguments reminds me of Spriggans are God Serena level.
Just like how God Serena was the source of hype for Spriggans bar top 3, Suzaku is the source of hype for BDSK.

Just as how God Serena's hype and feats blow the average Spriggans out of the water (compared to Gildarts, no diff 3 GOI + Jura); Suzaku's feats and arguably hype blows the other BDSK out of the water.

Ultimately, it could be argued that maybe they are same level when accounting for hax.......which honestly is quite vague and dependent on what Mashima wishes for at the moment.
But really, Suzaku has so much going on for him here. It is his power that convinced Selene to take over Diabolos.
Suzaku > Kirin > Misaki > Haku
 
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Axiomus

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It's really simple dude. One instance she's prepared for a fight, and has her armor equipped. The other is her with no armor having to react in a split second to an attack coming from someone joking around with them a few pages prior. And UFC fighters don't get their durability from magically enhancing their bodies. They have to constantly keep protecting their vital spots. In a mage fight, what matters is the magic power that's used to defend the attack. We know Erza was more than prepared with her magic power because she already knew it was going to be a fight and had already equipped her armor. With Suzaku she didn't know there was going to be a fight and had no time to prepare magical defenses. Also stop pretending like Erza's armors don't scale to her mp. An X784 character that was relative to Erza like Ikaruga was able destroy her berserk armor in one hit. Literally everything in X784 has been eclipsed in power by now. Yet when she fought Ajeel her black wing armor that should be weaker than the berserk one could withstand Ajeel's attacks without breaking. But let me guess, according Erza's armor durability is the same from BOS and Ajeel is weaker than Ikaruga..... ridiculous

A move that disables half of your arsenal is a pretty big counter lol. Gajeel wouldn't have gone down that easily if he could use his shadow mode. Why would Wendy knocking out Haku means she has higher attack power than the dragon gods? Selene and Ignia were holding back, and Dogramag had Suzaku OOC for several chapters (same as Haku). And what part of Haku was holding back don't you understand? Scaling based off attacks done while a character is holding back never works.

I'll break down the japanese at the end. Erza never decided that she didn't need her armors cause you know, she kind of needed them to move around the space regardless. Do you just selectively forget elements in the story when making your arguments? Dragon slaying seal is just an enchantment of DS element onto her sword. Her magic power with the meteor enchant was so strong that it completely overwrote Gildarts level magic power, she's never done something like that before. Yeah Erza went all out at the end of the fight, but once again the point seems to have flown over your head. When her armor was destroyed and when she used the fire and ice blades, she was still holding back.

I'm sorry man it's just really ridiculous that you seriously think Kirin or any of the other BDSK would need to go all out to reach the level of attack power Suzaku has with his casual sword strokes. I can't take you seriously with claims like that. And no Laxus isn;t more durable. He has slightly more stamina based on the fact that he went down a few seconds later, but that's it. He woke up first because of the White Mages' spell being broken. Everyone that was KOed till that point woke up not just him. And even a slight difference in defense wouldn't mean such a drastic difference in Laxus being able to withstand an entire assault and Erza going down in one hit. Just like Natsu she wasn't prepared the first time.

Erza reacted faster than Suzaku the first time he attacked. His sword stroke is a forward motion where he moves past his enemy while striking. Natsu and company were about 10-15 feet away from him. Before Suzaku could move forward to strike Natsu, Erza blitzed from the back to intercept him. And again Every feat you think Suzaku has in an arc where the DDSK are stated to be just as strong as him, would just scale to the other DDSK. It's that simple.

Yeah there is. I'm not gonna touch on your spriggan and tartaros and other group spiel because it's largely irrelevant to the discussion and based mostly off of things that aren't true or weren't said. The DDSK were not compared to Suzaku by saying "They all have the same magic power as him". Selene asked who was as strong as him and Madmole answered there were three others. Do you know what strength in terms of battle prowess means? It's how much damage can you deal and how much can you take. And after seeing everything in Suzaku's arsenal, she still considered Kirin a contender for the strongest. Yet you think Kirin would have to go all out to equal the damage of a casual attack from Suzaku? Ridiculous. And I never said Misaki's normal attack would be the same level as Suzaku's abyss attack. Actually read and maybe the points wouldn't fly over your head. I said her max damage output should be equal to Suzaku's strongest attack which would mean her damage multiplication. You are the one trying to say that 5 hours of Misaki's attacks is weaker than a casual attack from Suzaku. How is that equal lol.

And finally the raws. Pay attention to the highlighted word as there was a reason they were highlighted in the original as well.
This is a translation of Natsu's line. Suzaku's question is the same. He says that there's no way Natsu could have gotten stronger in such a short period of time. And Natsu agrees with him, saying that training is an accumulation(つみ重ね) of daily training/practice. Nowhere does he say "I train everyday which is why I'm so tough." He then goes on to explain the whole thing about reading his opponents movements and adapting to them. The second highlight is the same word from Natsu's first line and you can see that there are already dots there in the raws which are meant to highlight key parts of dialogue. Natsu says that their, being fairy tail's, "accumulation" (つみ重ね) is the understanding of their opponents. This is why they say that fairy tail doesn't lose to the same opponent twice. Natsu didn't get stronger, he just understood his opponent better. And as an omake that I don't feel like getting the screens of myself, look on the previous page. In the current translated version Suzaku asks if he had gotten weaker since the last time. But what he asks in the raws is if Natsu was holding back last time. If you thought the "you" at the beginning of the line was strange, that's why. Sorry for the google translate. I normally don't use translators and I don't know which ones are better.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I think I'll leave my arguments on this thread at this since the arguments are getting too ridiculous at this point and once again multiple minor points that aren't really relevant have been brought up and are taking up a bunch of paragraphs. Once again the result of this fight is simple. Erza beat someone just as strong as Suzaku and with more hax. If Erza got into a serious fight with Suzaku, the result would be similar to her fight against Misaki.
Suzaku literally said "You are my enemy, prepare yourselves" before he attacked. Like I've already said, Erza is more durable than her armours. She cant pour her MP into her armour to make them more durable. I can maybe believe that Erza's armour gets tougher as she gets stronger, similar to how Lucy's spirit get stronger, but there's a limit to how far that goes. Erza decided that defense is useless when Laxus broke her lightning empress in one hit. If all her armours can scale to her swords, there would be no need for benisakura. Benisakura is the only armour that allows that Erza to pour all her MP into to increase it's the attack power of her katana. If you wanna say this will make her sword durable enough not to break against Suzaku's slash, fine.I can buy this. But Erza herself will be less durable, and if she loses concentration her sword will break. What I dont buy is that Erza was somehow more on guard against Misaki. She caught Erza undefended, both when she hit her initially and when the damage kicked in.

Did the historia of Ikaraga not manage to cut Erza in Alvarez? I mean, doesnt Erza's fight with the historia prove that Azuma, Kyouka, and Ikaraga still have the stats to hurt Erza? I would argue they just go to prove my point that MP doesnt equal stats.

Do you believe Haku to have the same stats as Suzaku? You think Haku's showings against Wendy scales to Suzaku in physical strength? Or do you think Haku is strong because he turns people into dolls? Misaki is as strong as Suzaku, when you account for the effects her magic. Im not even scaling MP here. I think MP scaling is useless. What I am scaling is the overall combat effectiveness of their magic. Btw, it goes both ways. I dont think Suzaku has better physical strength than Kirin. A large part of Suzaku's attack power comes from how good his sword is. It lets Natsu cut down Dogramag's dragon form. Take away his sword and make him brawl Kirin hand to hand, and he's nowhere near as strong.

When did I say that? Im not saying Kirin needs to go all out to reach the level of Suzaku's casual sword strikes. Im saying Kirin held back. If he took things more seriously, he would beat Laxus. Mind you, Kirin doesnt have to hit harder than Suzaku to be stronger. He just needs to be stronger than him overall. It could very well be that Kirin's durability is so much better than Suzaku's that he comes out on top even though Suzaku hits harder. Again, we dont know what it normally takes to beat Kirin. Laxus had to eat the power of a dragon king . Laxus doesnt have more stamina than Erza. He ran out of MP too. The fact that he was standing longer is simply because he was less injured.

I dont buy that Erza is faster than Suzaku based off that exchange. Suzaku drew, swung, and sheathed his sword in the time Erza blocked. Erza is not outright faster than a Suzaku there. At best they are equal.

Look I'll take your word for it. But if what you're arguing is that Natsu held back against Suzaku in their first encounter, that still doesnt change the fact that FDK scales is whats saving Natsu's skin here. Unless Erza has an armour that scales squarely above dragon scales in durability, she's getting cut.

Im not neccessarily arguing that Suzaku oneshots Erza again. His strongest attack only has to scale to the damage Misaki did for him to win. Doesnt even have to be equal to the 24 hour worth of damage, which never even landed on Erza. If Erza puts all her MP into her katana, and they both land clean against each other...Erza goes down first. Suzaku only needs to replicate the damage Misaki dealt. Erza needs to exceed the damage Selene dealt. She needs to exceed the damage Dogramag dealt.
 
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grey matter

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Dude is out really arguing with manga at this point. When Natsu admits he is one shot material for Suzaku without his scales.

Mashima, in spite of his horrible track record of forgetting or ignoring previous feats, SPECIFICALLY CHOSE to remember and highlight Suzaku's previous feats against FT while drawing Natsu vs Suzaku 2.0
The intent can't get any clearer.

Kirin was stated to be a contender for the strongest cause that's the only way for Mashima to build hype for Laxus' opponent cause he doesn't have any prior showings apart from Laxus.
Suzaku doesn't have that issue, cause the hype for BDSK solely comes from Suzaku. He was always the special one - The one with best feats, the one Mashima focus on the most, one with most plot relevance, one who got to fight against two DGs, one Mashima chose to pair with Natsu.......people ignoring this usually have agendas.
 

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Dude is out really arguing with manga at this point. When Natsu admits he is one shot material for Suzaku without his scales.

Mashima, in spite of his horrible track record of forgetting or ignoring previous feats, SPECIFICALLY CHOSE to remember and highlight Suzaku's previous feats against FT while drawing Natsu vs Suzaku 2.0
The intent can't get any clearer.

Kirin was stated to be a contender for the strongest cause that's the only way for Mashima to build hype for Laxus' opponent cause he doesn't have any prior showings apart from Laxus.
Suzaku doesn't have that issue, cause the hype for BDSK solely comes from Suzaku. He was always the special one - The one with best feats, the one Mashima focus on the most, one with most plot relevance, one who got to fight against two DGs, one Mashima chose to pair with Natsu.......people ignoring this usually have agendas.
The others never got to fight DGs so they got statements to be as strong as him. The only reason Suzaku has the best feats is because he had more screen time.
Kirin was beating down laxus and Miskai could probably one shot laxus or gray with 5 hours of damage.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

That's not Erza fighting Misaki. That's Erza staring at Misaki. This is Misaki transporting Erza into blue dimension. Erza is busy wondering why her legs don't have strength when Misaki hit her with her first move.


Then they leave the blue dimension, and Erza is caught completely by surprise when the damage kicks in.

It's super disengenous to claim that Erza was caught off guard when she blocked Suzaku's attack, but not when she was hit while focusing on why her legs have no strength. It's also super obvious that she was completely off guard when the damage kicked in. Your definition of being caught off guard is nonsense. I'll give a real life example: UFC fighters get caught off guard when they fight all the time. It's why they get knocked out. Just because they had a face-off where they look really mad at each other, doesn't mean they are on guard the entire time afterwards. Besides, Erza can't pour MP into her armors to make them more durable anyways. That's not even a thing.

Diamond dragon countered iron dragon by...being harder. Sure, the Light Dragon move threw Gajeel out of his shadows, but he didn't lose cuz of that. Let me put it this way. Being held down doesn't make you less durable. Wendy's attack knocked him out. Unless you think Wendy hits harder than Selene, Ignia, and Dogramag, then Suzaku has better durability. You realize that Wendy is the least injured out of everyone who fought a BDSK right? If their attacks were equal, then Wendy should be more durable than Laxus, Natsu, and Erza lol.

Look, you're either gonna have to break down the Japanese for me, or wait to argue this when the official scans come out. Heavens' Wheel breaks all the time. Unless Erza is using it to spam literally all her weapons at you, there's nothing impressive about dealing with heaven's wheel. Laxus specifically broke lightning empress armor despite its resistance to lightning. That's what made Erza think defense was useless against him. Sea Empress armour lasted a few hits against Misaki, and Erza never decided that defense was useless against her. It's not obvious at all that her meteor sword is stronger than her katanas. Her katanas have always outperformed armadura fairy, and doesn't even have the dragon slaying seal active. Erza went all out against Laxus after that statement. These exchanges is Erza going all out:
I don't understand the issue with Kirin. Kirin was toying with Laxus for most of the fight. He was more interested in feeding Laxus to Elexion than actually beating Laxus up. Do I think Kirin can hit as hard as Suzaku? If he goes all out, sure. He never did though. I mean, he claimed he was only using 10% of his power. Clearly he felt that he didn't get the chance to go all out. Also, Laxus is slightly more durable than Erza. He was less injured after their fight, and recovered faster.

What's there to say about Misaki's durability and speed? Suzaku is just as fast, and has better durability feats. Suzaku tanked attacks from Selene, Ignia, and Dogramag...without taking critical damage. He was never even defeated. He ran out of MP.

There is no threshold for equivalency. MP has never meant better attack power. Mages considered the same rank has never had equal attack power. Remember the Tartaros playing cards? You know who had the highest curse power among the 9 Demon Gates? Keith at 3000. You know who had the worst attack power? Also Keith. Silver called him the weakest demon gate. Spriggan 12 were on God Serena's level, and most of them don't even come close to his matching his attack power. Diabolos trio are on the same level, and they have different attack power. God Dragons are on the same level, and their attack power are vastly different. Nowhere is it said that the BDSK all have equal attack power. If Misaki is hitting just as hard as Suzaku's strongest moves and then her magic amplifies the damage by 3000, then they're not equal. Misaki is stronger. Which is what you're really trying to argue. I'm arguing that Suzaku and Misaki are actually equals.



No lol. Wank is trying to argue that someone can tank 24 hours of worth of damage from an attack that previously oneshotted them. Suzaku hits much harder than Misaki upfront. Misaki does most of her damage by amplifying the lesser amount of damage she does in blue dimension. The overall result is relatively equal. Equal enough for them to be put on the same level.
Laxus is definitely not more durable than Erza. The only reason he woke up first was because of the white wizard and also Erza only got 4 clean hits on laxus, while he got numerous because Erza was holding back and the fight was still at double ko.
 

grey matter

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The others never got to fight DGs so they got statements to be as strong as him. The only reason Suzaku has the best feats is because he had more screen time.
Kirin was beating down laxus and Miskai could probably one shot laxus or gray with 5 hours of damage.
Suzaku fighting DGs is simply portrayal that he is the special one. There is a reason Mashima builds plots around him and not anyone else (except maybe Kirin to a small extend). There is a reason Mashima pairs up Suzaku with Natsu.

We don't even need his feats against DGs to argue for his strength, His feats against Natsu and Erza are enough.

All we need his Natsu HIMSELF STATING that he is one shot material for Suzaku, if not for his scales. This was especially highlighted. Natsu being unable to react to Suzaku's speed and hence needing to predict his movements was also especially highlighted.
Mashima specifically is reiterating that Suzaku's previous feats against Natsu and Erza stands.........the intent can't get any clearer. Suzaku is that guy.

FDKM Natsu, with a powerup specifically developed to counter Suzaku, was still on the losing side. In spite of environmental advantage of narrow walls restricting Suzaku's movements.

In contrast, nothing on Erza's arsenal is more durable than his own skin. Her armours get one shotted left and right by attacks that her body can tank.


LOL at Misaki one shotting Laxus with 5 hours damage. Erza took that, and then went onto beat Misaki. No reason to believe Laxus goes down from that. La
In contrast, Suzaku actually one shotted Erza.


I have seen enough of your comments to understand you........it's pointless trying to reason here. You would keep wanking Erza no matter what the manga shows you.
You can have Natsu actually 1v1 Ignia in the finale of the series and there would still be dudes (mostly Erza fans) arguing Natsu isn't tier above others in FT. It's quite honestly laughable.

Laxus is definitely not more durable than Erza. The only reason he woke up first was because of the white wizard and also Erza only got 4 clean hits on laxus, while he got numerous because Erza was holding back and the fight was still at double ko.
Giga COPIUM from Erza fans as usual. No proof for any of this white witch argument.
Let's even say that is true for the sake of argument. That means WW held back some of Laxus' magic, which got transferred to him after her whiteout magic got dispelled. Afterall, Merc was also canonically nerfed when under WW's magic.
If this is true......it means that Erza pushed a Laxus who not only fought Kyria, but also was nerfed, to an extreme diff. Using this argument actually backfires on you lmao.


Laxus fought Kyria and then Erza back to back.
Laxus low diff'd someone who gave Erza a mid-high diff in combat.

Unlike Erza who fell on her knees and fainted. He sat and went off exhausted.
Went down last, got up first and ran with Erza on his back.

The portrayal was that Erza went down due to both exhaustion and damage. While Laxus mainly went down due to exhaustion. Hence why him asking Erza to not move much when she woke up.

In the Labyrinth arc, Laxus got an opponent who was outright stronger than Erza's opponent (Misaki hyped herself up through Kirin). Apart from Suzaku, only Kirin got a special portrayal amongst the BDSK from Selene.

Mashima has throughout the main series and the spinoff, given Laxus a higher portrayal.
 

sharkai

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This the quality of this forum sadly.
@Axiomus and @grey matter are one of the respected members of this forum. but they actually believe Suzaku has a sh!t chance against erza. Seriously

People in this forum were told, again and again. that these hypes, and feats will amount to nothing. but they refused. these knights were special they say.
and here we are
Apparently, Suzaku casual no name strike is stronger than anything Misaki and Kirin can do lol. Kirin who is contender for the strongest, and miskai who has only gone serious against kirin and no one else.

i guess you really cant change people. they will believe this till next time and then they will say mishma doesnt care about power ranking. (same as before when they said laxus and erza were separate by tiers and then watched as laxus gained so much power to only reach draw of sort against erza)


In fairy tail verse, Erza will mid diff Suzaku.
 

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It's actually kinda funny that this debate is so intense. I mean, Erza already clashed with Suzaku in canon and lost.

Misaki being incapable of downing Erza speaks more of her damage output than of Suzaku's. Afterall, it's not like characters being equal mean they all hit just as hard as eachother, especially when you factor in Suzaku using slash attacks (that are typically more lethal).

I still think Erza gets low-diffed at best here, because there's no evidence of her learning anything to counter him, and assuming she just got way stronger since their last encounter because of the fight with Misaki, while Natsu himself stayed oneshot material without his special counter is nonsense
 

sharkai

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It's actually kinda funny that this debate is so intense. I mean, Erza already clashed with Suzaku in canon and lost.

Misaki being incapable of downing Erza speaks more of her damage output than of Suzaku's. Afterall, it's not like characters being equal mean they all hit just as hard as eachother, especially when you factor in Suzaku using slash attacks (that are typically more lethal).

I still think Erza gets low-diffed at best here, because there's no evidence of her learning anything to counter him, and assuming she just got way stronger since their last encounter because of the fight with Misaki, while Natsu himself stayed oneshot material without his special counter is nonsense
i guess some people understand how mishma writes and some people go by feats and foam later :oh
 

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This the quality of this forum sadly.
@Axiomus and @grey matter are one of the respected members of this forum. but they actually believe Suzaku has a sh!t chance against erza. Seriously

People in this forum were told, again and again. that these hypes, and feats will amount to nothing. but they refused. these knights were special they say.
and here we are
Apparently, Suzaku casual no name strike is stronger than anything Misaki and Kirin can do lol. Kirin who is contender for the strongest, and miskai who has only gone serious against kirin and no one else.

i guess you really cant change people. they will believe this till next time and then they will say mishma doesnt care about power ranking. (same as before when they said laxus and erza were separate by tiers and then watched as laxus gained so much power to only reach draw of sort against erza)


In fairy tail verse, Erza will mid diff Suzaku.
But Misaki saying she only went all out against Kirin doesn't mean shit. We know for a fact that Georg > DDSK. Misaki said that only Kirin pushed her to be serious. So by your logic, Kirin and Misaki > Georg?

Suzaku > Erza > Misaki. Natsu is the only member of the team who has trained by statements since Elentir by statements. Erza hasn't shown any counter to Suzaku's abilities. Her defenses are nowhere near FDK scales.
 

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But Misaki saying she only went all out against Kirin doesn't mean shit. We know for a fact that Georg > DDSK. Misaki said that only Kirin pushed her to be serious. So by your logic, Kirin and Misaki > Georg?

Suzaku > Erza > Misaki. Natsu is the only member of the team who has trained by statements since Elentir by statements. Erza hasn't shown any counter to Suzaku's abilities. Her defenses are nowhere near FDK scales.
and er you think mishma is investing this much of his brain matter on this subject :teehee

we already know power relation between them
Kirin >= Misaki (from Misaki statement)
Kirin > Suzaku (from Kirin statement)

Laxus = Erza (fight shown)

Suzaku aint one shotting anyone. that part of the story was to get boys men like @Axiomus and @grey matter hyped
 
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MangerDan

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This shit is stupid we all know Erza will just block his attacks. Then eventually her sword will break and she’ll pull out Belserion and out sword fight Suzaku into a high diff win.
 

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and er you think mishma is investing this much of his brain matter on this subject :teehee

we already know power relation between them
Kirin >= Misaki (from Misaki statement)
Kirin > Suzaku (from Kirin statement)

Laxus = Erza (fight shown)

Suzaku aint one shotting anyone. that part of the story was to get boys men like @Axiomus and @grey matter hyped
Kirin isn't >= Misaki. He is outright stronger than her. Kirin nosell Red Lightning and was beating up Laxus with just a coffin and his secondary magic. Misaki's attacks can't even match a lightning punch from Laxus, which already broke an armor that had resistance to it. Misaki doesn't have such feats. Her statement doesn't mean suggest that Kirin is barely stronger than her.

Laxus already spent magic on Kyria before their fight. Erza also collapsed first and Laxus woke up first too. Laxus >= Erza at best. They weren't exactly equals then and aren't now.
 

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Kirin isn't >= Misaki. He is outright stronger than her. Kirin nosell Red Lightning and was beating up Laxus with just a coffin and his secondary magic. Misaki's attacks can't even match a lightning punch from Laxus, which already broke an armor that had resistance to it. Misaki doesn't have such feats. Her statement doesn't mean suggest that Kirin is barely stronger than her.

Laxus already spent magic on Kyria before their fight. Erza also collapsed first and Laxus woke up first too. Laxus >= Erza at best. They weren't exactly equals then and aren't now.
Wrong. I am just giving kirin benefit of doubt. Kirin is most likely weaker than misaki. Her statement could mean she is stronger than him
Misaki already shrugged off laxus strongest move equivalent (blumblatt).

Nope. Erza held back most of the fight. She was most probably scared she will unintentionally kill laxus. That is why she was impressed by his gains. He increased in powers so much that he could match her

There is no more definition of equal than this. Laxus and erza pretty much tied. In comparison gmg laxus was far stronger than gmg jura, who he beat straight up
 

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This the quality of this forum sadly.
@Axiomus and @grey matter are one of the respected members of this forum. but they actually believe Suzaku has a sh!t chance against erza. Seriously

People in this forum were told, again and again. that these hypes, and feats will amount to nothing. but they refused. these knights were special they say.
and here we are
Apparently, Suzaku casual no name strike is stronger than anything Misaki and Kirin can do lol. Kirin who is contender for the strongest, and miskai who has only gone serious against kirin and no one else.

i guess you really cant change people. they will believe this till next time and then they will say mishma doesnt care about power ranking. (same as before when they said laxus and erza were separate by tiers and then watched as laxus gained so much power to only reach draw of sort against erza)


In fairy tail verse, Erza will mid diff Suzaku.
A lot to unpack here lol. Let's go over these.


"feats and hype don't matter in fairy tail, Mashima doesn't care, there is zero consistency, powerscaling = dead"
99% of the time, yes this is true.
I'm fairly certain that you've read enough of my posts to know I also heavily lean this direction.

If there is anything that is somewhat reliable in FT, it is relative portrayal.

It is for this reason that Gildarts, a middle aged man who should've peaked in BoS, still remains the strongest FT mage bar peak Natsu.

It is for this reason that I for instance, even as a Laxus fan try arguing against Laxus fans that the gap between Laxus and Erza has not decreased because Laxus got a powerup in his Kirin fight. Mashima doesn't care.
Portrayal >> feats, logic, powerups.
If Laxus fights Jellal, it will probably be a tie. If Laxus fights Erza, it will probably still be an extreme diff for Laxus. All the powerups and modes Laxus got become irrelevant to relative portrayal.

But at the same time, it is high time that all fanbases come to the realization that a serious Natsu is several tiers above any of his allies. At this point anyone not getting this is agenda fueled, there is really no other explanation. Natsu's portrayal >>>, feats >>>
Natsu has reached a point where he can solo the entire guild once he goes DF.

Point of this is to establish that just because Natsu can do something, doesn't mean others can.
I see this reasoning all the time from varying fanbases - "Natsu did this, so X can as well." WRONG.

DF Natsu completely vap'd the body of FH Zeref, and he had to use time magic to reverse and reform his body.
Gildarts' strongest attack (after bypassing magic immunity) on the other hand got tanked by August with relatively minor injuries.

DF Natsu vap'd nerfed Aldo seed, and vap'd the torso of dragon Aldo.


Coming to Suzaku.
If Mashima doesn't care for feats, why did Mashima SPECIFICALLY HIGHLIGHT Suzaku's prior feats in the Natsu vs Suzaku round 2? Afterall, Mashima could've simply pretended like they never happened, and made Natsu react to his attacks and tank his attacks. But what happened in reality was Mashima uncharacteristically and carefully wrote Natsu vs Suzaku R2 without retconning his previous feats:
- Natsu still can't react to his speed, have to resort to prediction through footwork
- Natsu, by his own admission, is STILL one shot material to Suzaku. If not for his FDK scales (i.e his DF durability)

I ask you........why did Mashima specifically highlight these?
Yes, Mashima doesn't care for feats 99% of the times. Hence why Skullion and Madmole went from: defeating Gray and no selling FDK demo fist -> stalemating Mira and Elfman -> getting no diff'd by Laxus
But here, we have reasons to believe Mashima does care. Because Mashima explicitly pointed to Suzaku's prior feats in Natsu vs Suzaku round 2. Natsu said he grew stronger; specifically, Natsu developed a powerup to deal with Suzaku's attack power

There is a reason Natsu got Suzaku.
It is because there are characters only Natsu can handle. Once every fandom comes to accept the reality that Natsu >> your fav, things will make more acceptable. I realized this during Alverez itself.





"BDSK are same level, Suzaku is no different from the others"
I've addressed this already
Kirin was stated to be a contender for the strongest cause that's the only way for Mashima to build hype for Laxus' opponent cause he doesn't have any prior showings apart from Laxus.
Suzaku doesn't have that issue, cause the hype for BDSK solely comes from Suzaku. He was always the special one - The one with best feats, the one Mashima focus on the most, one with most plot relevance, one who got to fight against two DGs, one Mashima chose to pair with Natsu.......people ignoring this usually have agendas.
Suzaku fighting DGs is simply portrayal that he is the special one. There is a reason Mashima builds plots around him and not anyone else (except maybe Kirin to a small extend). There is a reason Mashima pairs up Suzaku with Natsu.
Suzaku is the only BDSK that Mashima truly cares about and builds up. This should be obvious to anyone who read the last 2 arcs.

This is where I would again tell you to ignore hype and look at the narratives. Because what we have here is basically God Serena 2.0 scenario.

In Alverez. God Serena gets compared to Gildarts; no diff'd 3GOI + Jura in his base, then in his DS mode.
The average Spriggans on the other hand gets clowned like flies by characters a tier or more below Gildarts. You've got Neinhart, supposedly God Serena level in MP, shitting his pants at Jellal (someone weaker than Gildarts) flexing his MP

Suzaku fights two DGs, never went down to damage. His power convinced Selene to take over Diabolos. He gets paired up with Natsu. HUGE plot relevance. The dude is built different.

There is a reason the average Spriggan got compared to GS, and the BDSK got compared to Suzaku.
Because that is the narrative tool to build hype.

I will once again reiterate my previous point. Just because Natsu can do something, doesn't mean others can.





"Suzaku gets mid diff'd by Erza"
She extreme diff'd Misaki, someone who is weaker than Kirin..........





"lol at you guys believing Suzaku hits leagues harder than Kirin and Misaki"
Why stop at Kirin and Misaki? Why not include Haku as well lol? Afterall, Haku is a BDSK too.

Cause most of us can use a brain and conclude that attacks that can be tanked/blocked by Wendy of all people, won't even tickle Laxus or Erza,

Now use that reasoning a bit further and take it to it's logical conclusion.
Mashima, through Natsu's word, STILL MAINTAINS that Natsu without his scales would be one shot by Suzaku. Hmm........I wonder why Mashima especially mentioned this. I wonder why Mashima especially had Natsu develop a powerup to deal with Suzaku's attack power.

Say it with me one more time
Just because Natsu can do something, doesn't mean others can.
 
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sharkai

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A lot to unpack here lol. Let's go over these.


"feats and hype don't matter in fairy tail, Mashima doesn't care, there is zero consistency, powerscaling = dead"
99% of the time, yes this is true.
I'm fairly certain that you've read enough of my posts to know I also heavily lean this direction.

If there is anything that is somewhat reliable in FT, it is relative portrayal.

It is for this reason that Gildarts, a middle aged man who should've peaked in BoS, still remains the strongest FT mage bar peak Natsu.

It is for this reason that I for instance, even as a Laxus fan try arguing against Laxus fans that the gap between Laxus and Erza has not decreased because Laxus got a powerup in his Kirin fight. Mashima doesn't care.
Portrayal >> feats, logic, powerups.
If Laxus fights Jellal, it will probably be a tie. If Laxus fights Erza, it will probably still be an extreme diff for Laxus. All the powerups and modes Laxus got become irrelevant to relative portrayal.

But at the same time, it is high time that all fanbases come to the realization that a serious Natsu is several tiers above any of his allies. At this point anyone not getting this is agenda fueled, there is really no other explanation. Natsu's portrayal >>>, feats >>>
Natsu has reached a point where he can solo the entire guild once he goes DF.

Point of this is to establish that just because Natsu can do something, doesn't mean others can.
I see this reasoning all the time from varying fanbases - "Natsu did this, so X can as well." WRONG.

DF Natsu completely vap'd the body of FH Zeref, and he had to use time magic to reverse and reform his body.
Gildarts' strongest attack (after bypassing magic immunity) on the other hand got tanked by August with relatively minor injuries.

DF Natsu vap'd nerfed Aldo seed, and vap'd the torso of dragon Aldo.


Coming to Suzaku.
If Mashima doesn't care for feats, why did Mashima SPECIFICALLY HIGHLIGHT Suzaku's prior feats in the Natsu vs Suzaku round 2? Afterall, Mashima could've simply pretended like they never happened, and made Natsu react to his attacks and tank his attacks. But what happened in reality was Mashima uncharacteristically and carefully wrote Natsu vs Suzaku R2 without retconning his previous feats:
- Natsu still can't react to his speed, have to resort to prediction through footwork
- Natsu, by his own admission, is STILL one shot material to Suzaku. If not for his FDK scales (i.e his DF durability)

I ask you........why did Mashima specifically highlight these?
Yes, Mashima doesn't care for feats 99% of the times. Hence why Skullion and Madmole went from: defeating Gray and no selling FDK demo fist -> stalemating Mira and Elfman -> getting no diff'd by Laxus
But here, we have reasons to believe Mashima does care. Because Mashima explicitly pointed to Suzaku's prior feats in Natsu vs Suzaku round 2. Natsu said he grew stronger; specifically, Natsu developed a powerup to deal with Suzaku's attack power

There is a reason Natsu got Suzaku.
It is because there are characters only Natsu can handle. Once every fandom comes to accept the reality that Natsu >> your fav, things will make more acceptable. I realized this during Alverez itself.





"BDSK are same level, Suzaku is no different from the others"
I've addressed this already



Suzaku is the only BDSK that Mashima truly cares about and builds up. This should be obvious to anyone who read the last 2 arcs.

This is where I would again tell you to ignore hype and look at the narratives. Because what we have here is basically God Serena 2.0 scenario.

In Alverez. God Serena gets compared to Gildarts; no diff'd 3GOI + Jura in his base, then in his DS mode.
The average Spriggans on the other hand gets clowned like flies by characters a tier or more below Gildarts. You've got Neinhart, supposedly God Serena level in MP, shitting his pants at Jellal (someone weaker than Gildarts) flexing his MP

Suzaku fights two DGs, never went down to damage. His power convinced Selene to take over Diabolos. He gets paired up with Natsu. HUGE plot relevance. The dude is built different.

There is a reason the average Spriggan got compared to GS, and the BDSK got compared to Suzaku.
Because that is the narrative tool to build hype.

I will once again reiterate my previous point. Just because Natsu can do something, doesn't mean others can.





"Suzaku gets mid diff'd by Erza"
She extreme diff'd Misaki, someone who is weaker than Kirin..........





"lol at you guys believing Suzaku hits leagues harder than Kirin and Misaki"
Why stop at Kirin and Misaki? Why not include Haku as well lol? Afterall, Haku is a BDSK too.

Cause most of us can use a brain and conclude that attacks that can be tanked/blocked by Wendy of all people, won't even tickle Laxus or Erza,

Now use that reasoning a bit further and take it to it's logical conclusion.
Mashima, through Natsu's word, STILL MAINTAINS that Natsu without his scales would be one shot by Suzaku. Hmm........I wonder why Mashima especially mentioned this. I wonder why Mashima especially had Natsu develop a powerup to deal with Suzaku's attack power.

Say it with me one more time
Just because Natsu can do something, doesn't mean others can.
But you didn't believe in consistent power levels before. You thought laxus was far above erza, remember you thought erza external boost and ds seal or what not lol
You can say you were wrong, there is nothing wrong with saying that

either how
I agree with most what you say.
But I want one more
Just because erza can do it, doesn't mean other can. You can't just have this for natsu.

Suzaku was relevant only in previous arc. Not now. He might get low diffed now by current bad guys.

The truth is and you know it. If erza had fought suzaku instead of natsu or if suzaku fights erza or opponents now, you know what will be the result.

Aka suzaku previous feats are nothing more than say, springgans hype. Mishma highlighted their powers repeatedly.

As for natsu current standing. I don't think he is above erza or laxus, atleast by much. When push comes to shove, natsu goes God tier, just like erza goes far above gildarts tier.

Relative power levels remain consistent in normal situations

Suzaku is not strongest, that is a fact. Just like Serena isn't the strongest. Misaki is most likely contenders for strongest going by her statement with kirin slightly above. Suzaku is nowhere here. You are putting too much weight on things you know are irrelevant to mishma
 

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Suzaku not only has the better feats than Misaki, but better hype too. Mercphobia commented that Selene's MP was greater than his and Aldoron when she flexed her MP by enlarging the moon. Selene's minions commented that the enlarge moon meant someone is making Selene serious. This is an MP flex far and above Gildarts level, or even August/Irene levels, and Suzaku still won. Selene said that her human form, despite Acno level MP flex, was no match for Suzaku. Only Kirin has hype of being stronger than Suzaku, and this is because there are statements saying he's stronger. Misaki only has the hype of having been serious against Kirin when they sparred. That's nowhere near as good as having Selene admit she's no match in her human form against Suzaku.
 

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I am just giving kirin benefit of doubt. Kirin is most likely weaker than misaki. Her statement could mean she is stronger than him
Misaki already shrugged off laxus strongest move equivalent (blumblatt).
Idc really care for who wins this debate but saying kirin is weaker than Misaki is pure cope. Why didn't Misaki say she's the strongest bdsk? Kirin doesn't even mention his spar with misaki against laxus. Lol at people thinking Misaki>kirin
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Wrong. I am just giving kirin benefit of doubt. Kirin is most likely weaker than misaki. Her statement could mean she is stronger than him
Misaki already shrugged off laxus strongest move equivalent (blumblatt).

Nope. Erza held back most of the fight. She was most probably scared she will unintentionally kill laxus. That is why she was impressed by his gains. He increased in powers so much that he could match her

There is no more definition of equal than this. Laxus and erza pretty much tied. In comparison gmg laxus was far stronger than gmg jura, who he beat straight up
Damn what the hell is this? Some people really think Erza is way stronger than laxus. Sick laxus was about to no diff ajeel, Erza needed POF against ajeel.
 
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