One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

I think a clash with WB and stopping kaido, ending marineford are at least still hella impressive
I think my mihawk hype died after marineford cause he didn’t look all too impressive granted he wasn’t trying but the marine hunter and bounty reveal got it back up

Most Shichis just took Marineford either as a joke or as a compromise for which they had to be there but couldn't care less about Ace's deal. That and the starting flexes are actually the two things I enjoyed the most about the war. Everybody being monsters while chilling.

There's also the notorious Vista deal, who is always hyped as "someone who could even cross blades with Mihawk", but somehow that brings Mihawk down rather than bringing Vista up. I would understand the dehype if Mihawk had been defeated or had taken damage, but he was in his usual carefree attitude.

Hype never died for me, because it simply doesn't make sense for it to die. More on that next quote.

This is one of those topics were people are always gonna have different interpretation.
The Viz specifies Sword skill which I personally take at face value to just mean strictly ones understanding and proficiency in using the blade (this is before you go applying haki to it).

I'm willing to wait and see to what the actual answer is though, after this is topic that has the fanbase split.

Using haki isn't like bringing a gun to a swordfight. Using haki, in the context of One Piece, is no different from using your eyesight in a fight, or killing instinct, something natural in the body that makes them stronger and that all swordsmen that know how to use it apply it to their swordfighting without exception. Taking it away from the equation is an admitelly forceful interpretation.

So, why is it? Why thinking outside the box interpretations of the title? The most obvious interpretation is strongest = strongest, while the other interpretation raises questions. Since you are of that opinion, can you make sense of them?

- Is Zoro no longer a swordsman because he's applying haki to his swords? Is he just like King, despite calling King out?
- Are any of the Samurai from Wano swordsmen? They all use haki as an integral, and needed part of swordsmanship. If I want to compare them, do I have to take away their haki first? Would there be two strength rankings between them? Would they bother having a situation like this: "This is our strongest swordsman! ... And this other guy is double as strong than he is in a swordfight if we account for haki, but we don't do that there"?
- Why is it all the swordsmanship Mihawk taught Zoro over the timeskip, according to the manga, was how to properly imbue haki into his swords to improve their strength and durability?
- What about the black blades, which are haki-related (as said by Mihawk) and only achieved so far by him and Ryuma?
- What interest does Zoro have in being stronger than someone who, for all purposes, would be weaker in a fight than Shanks? Zoro's objective is not Mihawk, it's whoever is the strongest with a sword. If Shanks is stronger with a sword, Zoro would be gunning for his head. Mihawk exists solely in the story for being a physical goal us readers can see of Zoro's final dream. He exists so that we know that Zoro has achieved his dream of being the strongest once he beats him. If he's not the strongest, the character loses all purpose, and his title becomes a middle finger to readers.
- How does someone even prove he has better skills in a swordfight versus another swordfighter without applying haki to the fight? Did they duel without haki for some weird reason? How would anyone know who would win between them without haki for it to become a title?
- Who would care, for starters, when haki is just part of swordfighting? This is like saying "The title is about who is stronger in a fight with a sword but without jumping. If you jump you're doing something else with your body so that doesn't count towards the title anymore".

And lastly:
- If the WSS title is just that, how would Zoro prove he's the new WSS? Going by your interpretation, Zoro cannot engage Mihawk in a proper fight. On the contrary, to take his title he would need to prove he has better skills with a blade without applying haki to it so, if they used any haki at all, they wouldn't be able to compete anymore. Will Zoro ask Mihawk to turn off his haki for the duel? Is that what Mihawk meant Zoro's intentions are when he said he's "aiming for his head"? Come on.


These are all without taking into account meta stuff like "Mihawk is awaiting someone to surpass his rival, Shanks".


Shanks is a monster, but when compared to Mihawk there are no hints of suggestions so far that he would beat him, unlike the other way around, which is why it always sounds like the argument for Shanks is only built on bias whenever these discussions come up, as if Shanks' couldn't ever lose to his rival. Let's also remember that Shanks' whole character, despite being very strong himself, isn't built around being the strongest at anything, yet is a swordsman.

At least the "Mihawk is commander level" people have been shut down after Cross Guild. Five more years for Mihawk to appear again and keep rising in people's rankings.

 

[albertwv]

Which is more than Shanks from chapters 1 to 1078...

Mihawk may have more on screen time or feats BUT its the content of the feats. For example: Mihawk clashing with Vista does NOT compare Shanks clashing with WB. Which feat is better or could you infer is a more powerful clash?'

Mihawk clashing with Crocodile or Shanks clashing with Akainu
Mihawk going "Serious" on Pre-Ts Luffy or Shanks one-shooting Kid
Mihawk cutting Fujitora's Meteor into tiny pieces or Shanks causing 2 Admirals Kizaru and Fuji to stand down (I know its the movies, but this shows something).

All im saying is Shanks has more powerful feats than Mihawk shown in the manga (and movies)

Unpopular fact: Mihawk lost interest to PRE-Yonko one-armed Shanks AFTER losing an arm, this happened over 12 years ago, Shanks' bounty according to Film Red was around $1b. You can take the information as canon or not (the bounty part). Nonetheless, Mihawk stopped dueling a Shanks that was weaker than the Shanks we see now. I believed Shanks kept getting stronger, hence his $4b bounty and earning the title of Yonko.
Mihawk may have gotten stronger too im sure but to claim Mihawk>Shanks because of a title, when they haven't fought over 12 years, then its dumb.

Also, Mihawk lost interest in dueling a one-arm man, to me that means, Shanks became a lesser swordsman in skill, but not overall strength. Oda himself stated that Shanks did NOT lose strength after losing one arm, but then why did Mihawk lose interest in dueling him??????
My opinion is because Shanks had better sword skills with BOTH arms and Mihawk knew that.

Btw, the Hakiman argument is weak, but so is the WSS title defense. Use on-screen feats to settle it.

 

[Nie Li]

Mihawk may have more on screen time or feats BUT its the content of the feats. For example: Mihawk clashing with Vista does NOT compare Shanks clashing with WB. Which feat is better or could you infer is a more powerful clash?'

Mihawk clashing with Crocodile or Shanks clashing with Akainu
Mihawk going "Serious" on Pre-Ts Luffy or Shanks one-shooting Kid
Mihawk cutting Fujitora's Meteor into tiny pieces or Shanks causing 2 Admirals Kizaru and Fuji to stand down (I know its the movies, but this shows something).

All im saying is Shanks has more powerful feats than Mihawk shown in the manga (and movies)

Unpopular fact: Mihawk lost interest to PRE-Yonko one-armed Shanks AFTER losing an arm, this happened over 12 years ago, Shanks' bounty according to Film Red was around $1b. You can take the information as canon or not (the bounty part). Nonetheless, Mihawk stopped dueling a Shanks that was weaker than the Shanks we see now. I believed Shanks kept getting stronger, hence his $4b bounty and earning the title of Yonko.
Mihawk may have gotten stronger too im sure but to claim Mihawk>Shanks because of a title, when they haven't fought over 12 years, then its dumb.

Also, Mihawk lost interest in dueling a one-arm man, to me that means, Shanks became a lesser swordsman in skill, but not overall strength. Oda himself stated that Shanks did NOT lose strength after losing one arm, but then why did Mihawk lose interest in dueling him??????
My opinion is because Shanks had better sword skills with BOTH arms and Mihawk knew that.

Btw, the Hakiman argument is weak, but so is the WSS title defense. Use on-screen feats to settle it.

For proper on-screen feats we have to wait. We had "on-screen feats" of Big Mom being humiliated by Jinbe and Robin and that didn't make her weaker than them. Similar thing for Doflamingo and Crocodile during Marineford.

Until it's time for a character to start getting focus, in One Piece, there won't be feats. Nobody questioned the Yonko or Roger before we saw their feats.

Now, you say we have to wait for feats, but you go on th theorize like we all do based on something other than feats, and you say the Hakiman argument is ridiculous but you arrive at the bolded part, which is basically the hakiman argument: swordskill vs swordsman strength. How are they different?

 

[grey matter]

This is one of those topics were people are always gonna have different interpretation.
The Viz specifies Sword skill which I personally take at face value to just mean strictly ones understanding and proficiency in using the blade (this is before you go applying haki to it).

I'm willing to wait and see to what the actual answer is though, after this is topic that has the fanbase split.

Yes, he was said to be a swordsman more skilled than Shanks.
And yet in the same panel, they also call him world's strongest swordsman.

His title is "world's strongest swordsman".

I don't understand how this can be so confusing lol. The simplest and most obvious interpretation is simply that he's overall the strongest swordsman, without going into detail of every single stat like skill, haki, physical stats etc.
One doesn't need to be strongest in every single stat involved with being a swordsman to be overall the strongest swordsman.

Is there any confusion regarding WB being world's strongest man? I suppose not, though I have seen the occasional "he's called that because of physical strength, having the gura DF etc".
It's just people overthinking stuff cause they want to believe something else.

Mihawk may have more on screen time or feats BUT its the content of the feats. For example: Mihawk clashing with Vista does NOT compare Shanks clashing with WB. Which feat is better or could you infer is a more powerful clash?'

Mihawk clashing with Crocodile or Shanks clashing with Akainu
Mihawk going "Serious" on Pre-Ts Luffy or Shanks one-shooting Kid
Mihawk cutting Fujitora's Meteor into tiny pieces or Shanks causing 2 Admirals Kizaru and Fuji to stand down (I know its the movies, but this shows something).

All im saying is Shanks has more powerful feats than Mihawk shown in the manga (and movies)

Unpopular fact: Mihawk lost interest to PRE-Yonko one-armed Shanks AFTER losing an arm, this happened over 12 years ago, Shanks' bounty according to Film Red was around $1b. You can take the information as canon or not (the bounty part). Nonetheless, Mihawk stopped dueling a Shanks that was weaker than the Shanks we see now. I believed Shanks kept getting stronger, hence his $4b bounty and earning the title of Yonko.
Mihawk may have gotten stronger too im sure but to claim Mihawk>Shanks because of a title, when they haven't fought over 12 years, then its dumb.

Also, Mihawk lost interest in dueling a one-arm man, to me that means, Shanks became a lesser swordsman in skill, but not overall strength. Oda himself stated that Shanks did NOT lose strength after losing one arm, but then why did Mihawk lose interest in dueling him??????
My opinion is because Shanks had better sword skills with BOTH arms and Mihawk knew that.

Btw, the Hakiman argument is weak, but so is the WSS title defense. Use on-screen feats to settle it.

His point simply was that Shanks didn't have any real feat either, until last chapter. What he had was hype moments.
Splitting sky with WB suggests nothing more than relative conquerors haki, stopping war was yet another hype moment. So was scaring away Greenbull. It's just hype that he's not to be messed with. Only last chapter, we actually got to see his power.

Portrayal/hype and statements take precedence in absence of feats. Which is why we near unanimously consider Rocks as amongst the strongest ever in the verse. Mihawk has no anti feats to negate his portrayal. If anything, nonsense that some were spouting like "Mihawk is YC1/+" got swiftly taken out by Oda with chapter 1058.

I keep hearing the "Oda said Shanks didn't lose power". Where is this from? I want to know the exact quote, cause IIRC that was a misinterpretation. If anything, manga suggest the opposite even apart from Mihawk losing interest. Shanks himself says he bet it on the new gen, there is a reason why he passed on the Strawhat.
Shanks likely would've been as strong as Roger with both arms, capable of becoming PK. But he lost that potential and passed on the SH

What is however stated is that Mihawk is WSS in both title and actuality. That he's waiting for a swordsman surpassing his rival Shanks.

There is something people need to understand. "Frauds" exist only in fans mind, based on their interpretation of manga events.
If that ever happens to be the case, it will be explained well and acknowledged in the manga. For example, WB actually not bring WSM in Marineford was explained well within manga through WB's sickness, with WB himself saying "I'm just a man, I cannot be stronger forever". Whitebeard's decline was a part of the narrative itself there.

Could Shanks be stronger than Mihawk? Maybe, but only if he's something more than a swordsman. Which doesn't look like the case as of now, but we'll never know with Oda

 

[Nie Li]

I will add something to what I already said.

Big Mom and Doflamingo aren't the only examples of people having bad on-screen feats prior to their moment.

Garp's on screen feats:
- Punching Marco in the face without a KO (and Marco is a character that doesn't dodge any hit).
- Getting punched by G2 pre-TS Luffy into the ground.
- Punching pre-TS Luffy in the head again without a KO.
- Strawhats dodging and blocking his cannonball throws before running away.
- Getting slashed in the chest by Axe-Hand Morgan.

Nobody's doubting Garp really is equal to Roger based on past rivalry and fights between them that we never saw, right? Everybody understands the context of those scenes. And Garp doesn't even have the extra commentary and implications Mihawk does. There is what appears to be an active choice of understanding one but not the other.

 

[Pirate Queen]

If Mihawk's only remaining feat in the manga is fighting Zoro and losing, how do opinons of him change? Can I get an honest response to this?

More of a portrayal question

 

[albertwv]

For proper on-screen feats we have to wait. We had "on-screen feats" of Big Mom being humiliated by Jinbe and Robin and that didn't make her weaker than them. Similar thing for Doflamingo and Crocodile during Marineford.

Until it's time for a character to start getting focus, in One Piece, there won't be feats. Nobody questioned the Yonko or Roger before we saw their feats.

Now, you say we have to wait for feats, but you go on th theorize like we all do based on something other than feats, and you say the Hakiman argument is ridiculous but you arrive at the bolded part, which is basically the hakiman argument: swordskill vs swordsman strength. How are they different?

Nobody here is saying Robin > BM or Jimbei > BM. They managed to roll her away, not harm at all. Also BM was a big joke in Wano.
Roger is stated to be equal to WB and fought Garp. I think everybody here agrees that Old Era are all automatically stronger than the current era. People did question the Yonko it is still debated today the Yonko vs Admiral.

The bolded part has nothing to do with the Hakiman argument, I pointed out strength not Haki. Swordsman skill is different than somebody wielding a sword.
I presented very well laid out facts and timeline, yet people choose to ignore that. Mihawk stopped dueling a weaker than now Shanks, 12 years later Shanks got stronger. How do we know if current Mihawk is actually stronger than current Shanks? We don't, but Im betting that he aint. Mihawk automatically assumed Shanks was weaker due to his one-arm, but Oda stated that Shanks did not get weaker. Oda didn't announce that Shanks got stronger after 12 years but we can safely assume he did, because 1. he had a bounty increase of $1b to $4b and 2. He became a Yonko.
Meanwhile Mihawk was still looking for a swordsman to rival him, but he didn't go fight Vista all those 10 years.... but wait he did go after Don Krieg because he was bored all the way to the EB.....

@Nie Li you're really bringing in Morgan slashing Garp..lol that was for comedic purposes. Garp managed to make Marco in Phoenix Form bleed, something Kizaru and Akainu were not able to. Garp ultimately allowed himself to get punched by Pre TS G2 Luffy, you can see it in his eyes, even Sengoku mentioned it. Garp comedically punched Luffy but with no intent to knock out or kill him.

 

[Pirate Queen]

There is what appears to be an active choice of understanding one but not the other.

Like how some refuse to acknowledge Vista's swordsmanship is nearly equal to Mihawks allowing them to fight as equals when Mihawk is a clear Yonko class while Vista is most certainly not even a YC1+?

Swordsmanship has them fighting equally because they fought using swordskills. Mihawk respected Vista so any claims that Mihawk was intentionally using shoddy swordsmanship is just damage control.

Any other Yonko class fighter would make little work of a YC even without going all out, yet Marco sent out Vista to deal with Mihawk which is the equivalent of Katakuri sending out Cracker to deal with Shanks.

It seems there is selective listening on both sides of the arguements

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 4, 2023 ---

Imagine if Shanks was held back by someone like Queen or Smoothie. Mihawk stans would NEVER let the Fandom live it down

 

[grey matter]

I will add something to what I already said.

Big Mom and Doflamingo aren't the only examples of people having bad on-screen feats prior to their moment.

Garp's on screen feats:
- Punching Marco in the face without a KO (and Marco is a character that doesn't dodge any hit).
- Getting punched by G2 pre-TS Luffy into the ground.
- Punching pre-TS Luffy in the head again without a KO.
- Strawhats dodging and blocking his cannonball throws before running away.
- Getting slashed in the chest by Axe-Hand Morgan.

Nobody's doubting Garp really is equal to Roger based on past rivalry and fights between them that we never saw, right? Everybody understands the context of those scenes. And Garp doesn't even have the extra commentary and implications Mihawk does. There is what appears to be an active choice of understanding one but not the other.

Man, there are people who do consider Garp a "fraud" based on his feats too lol.

I mean, if people want to ignore context and use something against a character, they will. Nothing you can do to stop that.

It's just that there are less people with incentive to discredit Garp, compared to Mihawk. So you don't see Garp slander as often.

People did question the Yonko it is still debated today the Yonko vs Admiral.

Why shouldn't it be? Even in the old era, Sengoku and Garp were considered legitimate threats by Roger. Sengoku was an admiral and Garp an "admiral" who refused the position.

Just as how admirals of the old gen were legitimate threats to top tier pirates of the old gen, the same is true for mid gen also.

I think it's more of a debate of what's the gap. For the longest time, admirals being a tier below Yonko was a relatively common take. Even I used to do that, if you've seen my lists of an year+ ago. But at this point it's pretty clear that they're same tier, even tho Yonko "on average" are stronger. I mean it would at least be a high diff fight. One could reasonably argue the OG admiral trio could very well be stronger than BM at this point.

 

[albertwv]

Mihawk fans refuse to acknowledge that Mihawk took Vista seriously. When Mihawk himself acknowledged Vista as being worthy and that only a simpleton would not know of Vista.
Now I'm not bashing Mihawk vs Vista, it clearly shows that Vista is not someone to be underestimated but it also shows that Mihawk isn't on Yonko level as people may believe he is.
Shanks clashed with Vista's captain Whitebeard, while Mihawk clashed with Vista.
That is a feat and the win goes to Shanks.
Also Mihawk's attack was blocked Jozu. While Shanks blocked Akainu's attack.

From what I've seen display of strengths from Mihawk is that he is around the Yonko commander level, but Shanks on the other (only) hand, is comparable to Yonko/Admiral level.
We've seen how Yonko/Admirals dealt with Yonko Commanders. A few examples: Queen vs BM, Kaido vs Luffy, Akainu vs Marco/Vista, etc.

Not saying Mihawk is YC level but im saying is he is not stronger than Shanks, from what the manga tells me.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Mihawk fans refuse to acknowledge that Mihawk took Vista seriously. When Mihawk himself acknowledged Vista as being worthy and that only a simpleton would not know of Vista.
Now I'm not bashing Mihawk vs Vista, it clearly shows that Vista is not someone to be underestimated but it also shows that Mihawk isn't on Yonko level as people may believe he is.
Shanks clashed with Vista's captain Whitebeard, while Mihawk clashed with Vista.
That is a feat and the win goes to Shanks.
Also Mihawk's attack was blocked Jozu. While Shanks blocked Akainu's attack.

From what I've seen display of strengths from Mihawk is that he is around the Yonko commander level, but Shanks on the other (only) hand, is comparable to Yonko/Admiral level.
We've seen how Yonko/Admirals dealt with Yonko Commanders. A few examples: Queen vs BM, Kaido vs Luffy, Akainu vs Marco/Vista, etc.

Not saying Mihawk is YC level but im saying is he is not stronger than Shanks, from what the manga tells me.

Mihawk is definitely Yonko Level

 

[baditz]

In my book, Mihawkare Yonko level, but he just cannot defeat any original Yonko
Just like admiral level.

 

[Rein Avara]

Mihawk fans refuse to acknowledge that Mihawk took Vista seriously. When Mihawk himself acknowledged Vista as being worthy and that only a simpleton would not know of Vista.
Now I'm not bashing Mihawk vs Vista, it clearly shows that Vista is not someone to be underestimated but it also shows that Mihawk isn't on Yonko level as people may believe he is.
Shanks clashed with Vista's captain Whitebeard, while Mihawk clashed with Vista.
That is a feat and the win goes to Shanks.
Also Mihawk's attack was blocked Jozu. While Shanks blocked Akainu's attack.

From what I've seen display of strengths from Mihawk is that he is around the Yonko commander level, but Shanks on the other (only) hand, is comparable to Yonko/Admiral level.
We've seen how Yonko/Admirals dealt with Yonko Commanders. A few examples: Queen vs BM, Kaido vs Luffy, Akainu vs Marco/Vista, etc.

Not saying Mihawk is YC level but im saying is he is not stronger than Shanks, from what the manga tells me.

Yeah it'd be weird if Mihawk wasn't at least Yonko level.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 4, 2023 ---

For some reason we love to get into this way too deeply. I for one am very unlikely to change my thoughts until the manga shows me otherwise, which btw I don't think we'll ever get.
Yes I am biased towards shanks but so are the rest of you towards your preferred characters, no point in denying it.

You have people being pedantic over Mihawk not wanting to fight Shanks with one arm as if to say he's now weaker because he's lost an arm, an interaction which I just took as two rivals teasing each other (which we have seen cases in various different mangas).

This is random: Would Zoro, someone whom we know is skilled with the blade be able to defeat Kaido if he was also wielding a blade? I still believe Kaido would come out the winner just because of his Mastery and proficiency in All forms of haki, now does this then mean that Zoro is any less of a superior Swordsman to Kaido? Because he still is the superior swordsman he just lacks in the haki department even though his haki is by all means fantastic.

The Above can also be applied to Mihawk vs Shanks although in this case I'd say they're a lot closer and the fight could go either way, we're not sure of the circumstances in which Mihawk got to be the WSS perhaps he did defeat shanks in which case y'all were right and we who were defending shanks were wrong, or perhaps Shanks was never interested in the title and just duelled to gain strength/Notoriety or what have you and in his absence Mihawk got the title.

I had to stop midway through writing to see if this topic was still prohibited (seems to be the case still) but let's just finish saying what we have to say in regards to this topic. and move on to something else.

Also, I want to add that I understand that Mihawk needs to be strong is order for Zoro's dream to make sense, but that's really got nothing to do with Shanks otherwise he'd be out here challenging Mihawk every other Sunday.

Maybe we get something regarding the whole Mihawk vs Shanks once the strawhats meet with Red Hair Pirates. That's all I have to say in regards to this please provide your closing statements so we can move on from this

Will we get Luffy vs Shanks before we get Zoro vs Mihawk? What are people's thoughts?

 

[grey matter]

For some reason we love to get into this way too deeply. I for one am very unlikely to change my thoughts until the manga shows me otherwise, which btw I don't think we'll ever get.
Yes I am biased towards shanks but so are the rest of you towards your preferred characters, no point in denying it.

Let's take bias out of the way here.

Oda keeps reiterating that Mihawk is the WSS.
And official materials keep pointing out that he is WSS in both title and actuality (probably cause dudes keep calling him a fraud)

Clearly, the unbiased way is to accept that Mihawk is really WSS until proven otherwise in manga, rather than assuming Oda and official materials are lying by calling him WSS. Because if someone else is, then Zoro is chasing a fraud and should be chasing after someone else.
And then look at things is to come to the obvious conclusion of what WSS means. It simply means Mihawk would beat anyone else in a swordsfight, haki, physical stats etc all included.


Now coming to biases, my bias is that Shanks is a swordsman.
Maybe he isn't, but everything so far points towards him being one. If you think Shanks isn't a swordsman, give me anything in the manga that suggest otherwise.

You have people being pedantic over Mihawk not wanting to fight Shanks with one arm as if to say he's now weaker because he's lost an arm, an interaction which I just took as two rivals teasing each other (which we have seen cases in various different mangas).

This is a reach IMO, but I can see where you're coming from.

But regardless, there is a reason why Mihawk stopped fighting Shanks once he lost his arm. It certainly isn't because Mihawk considers the possibility of losing, if that was the case he wouldn't have fought Shanks several times when Shanks had both arms and there wasn't a clear winner.
I don't understand ignoring the obvious implication here.

This is random: Would Zoro, someone whom we know is skilled with the blade be able to defeat Kaido if he was also wielding a blade? I still believe Kaido would come out the winner just because of his Mastery and proficiency in All forms of haki, now does this then mean that Zoro is any less of a superior Swordsman to Kaido? Because he still is the superior swordsman he just lacks in the haki department even though his haki is by all means fantastic.

The Above can also be applied to Mihawk vs Shanks although in this case I'd say they're a lot closer and the fight could go either way, we're not sure of the circumstances in which Mihawk got to be the WSS perhaps he did defeat shanks in which case y'all were right and we who were defending shanks were wrong, or perhaps Shanks was never interested in the title and just duelled to gain strength/Notoriety or what have you and in his absence Mihawk got the title.

Yes, I think Kaido wielding a sword would defeat current zoro.
And yes, this would mean that Kaido is a stronger swordsman than Zoro. Zoro is more skilled as a swordsman, but Kaido is the stronger swordsman. I don't understand why there would be any confusion regarding this.
Zoro, over the course of post TS, didn't become a stronger swordsman by improving his sword skill, how he grew stronger was with upgrades to his haki and physical stats. And I can guarantee you that upgrades to haki and physical stats would be the primary factor in him eventually surpassing Mihawk too.


What is however also true is that Kaido fighting as a swordsman, would also undoubtedly lose to Mihawk or Shanks. Thus, a hypothetical Kaido wielding a sword wouldn't be WSS.

Also on the last point. Who did Whitebeard defeat to become WSM? Who did Kaido defeat to become WSC? These are simply narrative tools by Oda to state they are the strongest.
I don't think Mihawk defeated Shanks, what likely happened was that they were dead equal until Shanks lost his arm, and after that Mihawk simply lost interest.

I had to stop midway through writing to see if this topic was still prohibited (seems to be the case still) but let's just finish saying what we have to say in regards to this topic. and move on to something else.

I believe this was prohibited 1+ years ago, when there was no material to argue.

Since then:
- 1058 happened, where Mihawk's swordsmanship was directly compared to Shanks. And was reiterated that he is WSS
- 1079, when the first actual feat Shanks did in the manga, was a named sword attack.

Also, I want to add that I understand that Mihawk needs to be strong is order for Zoro's dream to make sense, but that's really got nothing to do with Shanks otherwise he'd be out here challenging Mihawk every other Sunday.

It is simply related in the following way.
If Shanks is a swordsman and is stronger than Mihawk, then Zoro should be fighting Shanks instead of Mihawk

Or else, there will still be a ? after Zoro beats Mihawk.

Maybe we get something regarding the whole Mihawk vs Shanks once the strawhats meet with Red Hair Pirates. That's all I have to say in regards to this please provide your closing statements so we can move on from this

My closing statements are the following:
- Mihawk is the WSS, or else Mihawk is a dogshit character and Oda is shitting on the dreams of his 2nd Strawhat
- Shanks could be stronger than Mihawk, but then he shouldn't be a swordsman. The answer to this could come from us seeing an actual fight from Shanks, rather than a one shot that we saw against Kid. If all he does is fight with his sword, then he's a swordsman.


I would just put this link out there, for the Shanks fans:



Morj is a Shanks fan and believes Shanks is stronger (he doesn't think Shanks is a swordsman).
But he was still very fair in the video, lays down the rules in an unbiased way and makes the case for Mihawk as well. He can articulate stuff better than I can writing a damn essay. He concludes that the only way Shanks being stronger can even be entertained is if Shanks is NOT a swordsman.

 

[HereNThere]

I had to stop midway through writing to see if this topic was still prohibited (seems to be the case still) but let's just finish saying what we have to say in regards to this topic. and move on to something else.

I've been giving it some leeway since we've recently got more context regarding their abilities and whatnot. The initial reason it was a banned topic was that the two hadn't done much of anything still at that point in time. As the pinned post states, they are only shelved until the manga provides more material to warrant discussion.

Will we get Luffy vs Shanks before we get Zoro vs Mihawk? What are people's thoughts?

Honestly not sure. Narratively speaking, it makes sense for Shanks to fight Luffy first and then Mihawk to fight Zoro afterward. Luffy beating Shanks doesn't mean he's Pirate King yet, so there's still some story to squeeze out, but Zoro beating Mihawk would be the end of his arc technically. Doesn't mean Zoro wouldn't get any other fights, but that would be his goal done and dusted.

 

[Nie Li]

I had to stop midway through writing to see if this topic was still prohibited (seems to be the case still) but let's just finish saying what we have to say in regards to this topic. and move on to something else.

The power to edit that prohibition list is in your hands.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Let's take bias out of the way here.

Oda keeps reiterating that Mihawk is the WSS.
And official materials keep pointing out that he is WSS in both title and actuality (probably cause dudes keep calling him a fraud)

Clearly, the unbiased way is to accept that Mihawk is really WSS until proven otherwise in manga, rather than assuming Oda and official materials are lying by calling him WSS. Because if someone else is, then Zoro is chasing a fraud and should be chasing after someone else.
And then look at things is to come to the obvious conclusion of what WSS means. It simply means Mihawk would beat anyone else in a swordsfight, haki, physical stats etc all included.

I'll preface this with - I know he will be one of the strongest in verse characters we will ever see. What we don't know is how he compares to some of the other strongest fighters in the verse.

The issue I personally have with all the "Worlds" titles is they give you indication of credible narrative hype but if you remove bias they do give you a litmus test on individuals e.g. A is stronger than B. The moment the Title is used in a debate of A vs B, the Title definitions starts to lose their meaning in a literal sense. This applies to Whitebeard and Kaido too but I will focus on Mihawk for this post.

The argument for Mihawk being stronger than Shanks is currently founded on the WSS title instead of actual feats we can point to since Mihawk hasn't gotten much fighting done yet. However, when using a somewhat semantic argument based on title you don't really get far.

The reason being the core of the argument is (1) Mihawk is WSS, (2) Character A uses a sword to fight (3) Therefore Mihawk is stronger than Character A. If one is willing to make this argument then you must also accept the corollary argument (1) Character X does not use a sword to fight, (2) Mihawk is WSS, (3) Therefore I cannot conclude that Mihawk is stronger than Character X.

Depending on what Character you use for X it can start sounding ridiculous:

• Yamato is a strong fighter with advanced CoC. Yamato uses a club to fight. Hence I cannot conclude that Mihawk is stronger than Yamato. Does this make sense?
• Post TS we have seen Kaku fight in Egghead. Kaku is not using a sword. Hence I cannot conclude that Mihawk is stronger than PS Kaku. Does this make sense?
• Coby is a strong fighter that has haki. Coby uses his fists to fight. Hence I cannot conclude that Mihawk is stronger than Coby. Does this make sense?

I can put in progressively weaker and weaker characters that know how to use haki but don't fight with a sword and come to the same conclusion (that I can't conclude Mihawk is stronger than them). The argument has been so fixated on the WSS title to draw conclusion that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks that we forget it really tells us very little.

Now none of this is to say that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk. I personally expect Mihawk to end up being either the same strength as Shanks or maybe even stronger. However, at this point in time we have nothing to back up either claim in a serious enough capacity. That's why we keep falling back on the title. We should wait to have this debate once we have more current Mihawk feats so we can have a debate with substance.

 

[grey matter]

The issue I personally have with all the "Worlds" titles is they give you indication of credible narrative hype but if you remove bias they do give you a litmus test on individuals e.g. A is stronger than B. The moment the Title is used in a debate of A vs B, the Title definitions starts to lose their meaning in a literal sense. This applies to Whitebeard and Kaido too but I will focus on Mihawk for this post.

How would that lose any meaning? Give me an example.

The reason being the core of the argument is (1) Mihawk is WSS, (2) Character A uses a sword to fight (3) Therefore Mihawk is stronger than Character A. If one is willing to make this argument then you must also accept the corollary argument (1) Character X does not use a sword to fight, (2) Mihawk is WSS, (3) Therefore I cannot conclude that Mihawk is stronger than Character X.

100% agree
This is logical and the unbiased way to reason.

If character X isn't a swordsman, then Mihawk vs character X needs more info to proceed.

Depending on what Character you use for X it can start sounding ridiculous:

• Yamato is a strong fighter with advanced CoC. Yamato uses a club to fight. Hence I cannot conclude that Mihawk is stronger than Yamato. Does this make sense?
• Post TS we have seen Kaku fight in Egghead. Kaku is not using a sword. Hence I cannot conclude that Mihawk is stronger than PS Kaku. Does this make sense?
• Coby is a strong fighter that has haki. Coby uses his fists to fight. Hence I cannot conclude that Mihawk is stronger than Coby. Does this make sense?

1. Yamato isn't a top tier. Mihawk is one. So Mihawk > Yamato. Like I said, we need to use additional information if character X isn't a swordsman. A more reasonable comparison would be Mihawk vs Kaido, both are top tiers and Mihawk's title of WSS isn't a factor here since Kaido also isn't a swordsman

2. Kaku is a swordsman. He uses his limbs as a sword. Kaku has been officially called a swordsman too, put in the cover page with the swordsmen of OP.
Anyway, Kaku isn't a top tier either, in fact he's weaker than Zoro, who we know is weaker than Mihawk

3. Coby isn't top tier, case closed again.


I don't understand the point of any of these examples.
Yamato and Coby aren't swordsmen, so you're right in that the title of WSS isn't by default putting Mihawk above Yamato and Coby without context. But we have enough context/information apart from that, to conclude that Mihawk is stronger than them

I can put in progressively weaker and weaker characters that know how to use haki but don't fight with a sword and come to the same conclusion (that I can't conclude Mihawk is stronger than them). The argument has been so fixated on the WSS title to draw conclusion that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks that we forget it really tells us very little.

^^ same reasoning as above.

You're right that WSS by default wouldn't put Mihawk above them, without context.
The important context here is that WSS also means Mihawk is a top tier, will be amongst the strongest even amongst top tiers. Simply because we have seen the heights of swordsmen in one piece with - Roger, Rayleigh, Shanks, Oden. Yes, 3 of them didn't belong in the same era and can't be compared, but Shanks still exist and is in his prime (albeit without an arm).

Now none of this is to say that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk. I personally expect Mihawk to end up being either the same strength as Shanks or maybe even stronger. However, at this point in time we have nothing to back up either claim in a serious enough capacity. That's why we keep falling back on the title. We should wait to have this debate once we have more current Mihawk feats so we can have a debate with substance.

I mean, we've had people here claiming Mihawk is some commander tier or YC1+ an year or so ago.
But 1058 shut down most of them, but we still got Albert arguing he's one I guess.


Ultimately it depends on what you value.
If you care only about feats, and not narrative/portrayal/manga statements. Then yeah, this would be the way to go. But then, there is no reason to assume Rocks was amongst the top even amongst top tiers, Garp was relative Roger/WB, Dragon is a top tier, etc.
But those who have a sense of narrative/author-intent will know all these are true, without even needing to wait for feats.


The unbiased take is that, it should be Shanks fans who need to wait for feats.
Because until an anti-feat exists from Mihawk, or until there is something showing Shanks isn't a swordsman.......... the default should be to go by the title/portrayal.

I will anyway agree that Mihawk would need some solid feats before fighting Zoro, or else it would diminish the value/achievement of Zoro taking down Mihawk

 

[Pirate Queen]

My closing argument is this I guess.

The same material used to tell us Mihawk is the WSS and has sword skills that surpass Shanks is the same material that tells us that Vista is a swordsman nearly equal to Mihawk. The fear of debating this point simply proves my point because it simply cannot be disproven. Mihawk respected Vista of all the other combatants in the Marineford War because he was a world class swordsman and the duel was equal. Oda also gave us distinction between people that wield swords(technically swordsmen like King/Big Mom) as opposed to "true swordsmen" (like Zoro/Ryuma/Mihawk)

Mihawk>Shanks in sword skills
Shanks>Mihawk in overall combat ability

Shanks has hype/portrayal/feats over Mihawk and its obvious why.

It's gotten sad to the point where Mihawk fans motto is now "Shanks feats are actually Mihawk feats but worse" that's an incredibly pathetic stand point to have and no other character benefits from the feats of another besides Mihawk.

The amount of Mihawk fans who got excited to see Shanks one shot Kidd because it means Mihawk could better is simply ridiculous.

That's my stance and if this truly is our closing arguments I'll be done for now but any mod has the ability to open up this discussion because we now have on panel feats and many sources of materials to pull from to make a more valid discussion.

Overall this discussion patch has been more tame than past discussion and I think we are at a point where this forum can freely discussion Mihawk vs Shanks without it devolving into pages of nonsense. Everyone seems to be on point here

 

[DeadlyBeast]

How would that lose any meaning? Give me an example.

To me the Titles help hype the characters and makes it clear we can expect a lot out of them. Where they start to lose literal meaning is when using the Title as a feat since they are relatively vague. For example would you say that Luffy is now the World's Strongest Creature? Technically he is a Creature of some sort and is the closest individual to have beaten the previous WSC title holder in a fight. Or do you think the title WSC is now gone? Same with WB. Technically from MF War, Akainu delivered the fatal injury to WB (despite what BB & crew did WB was a dead man walking after his last bout with Akainu). Would you argue Akainu should have title of Worlds Strongest Man?

If in order to arrive at a conclusion for the above questions you need to use feats from the actual characters, put context into fights they have been in, etc then the argument is no longer based on Titles. It is back to normal power scaling question of is A stronger than B using the feats we have seen or expect based on narrative. The titles are cool and all but we actually don't have our debates using them since they aren't real substance in of themselves.

100% agree
This is logical and the unbiased way to reason.

If character X isn't a swordsman, then Mihawk vs character X needs more info to proceed.

The bolded part is my point in a nutshell. The title is not very useful in power scaling individuals if we take it literally. I'll clarify what I mean by this in below area with the examples you responded to.

1. Yamato isn't a top tier. Mihawk is one. So Mihawk > Yamato. Like I said, we need to use additional information if character X isn't a swordsman. A more reasonable comparison would be Mihawk vs Kaido, both are top tiers and Mihawk's title of WSS isn't a factor here since Kaido also isn't a swordsman

2. Kaku is a swordsman. He uses his limbs as a sword. Kaku has been officially called a swordsman too, put in the cover page with the swordsmen of OP.
Anyway, Kaku isn't a top tier either, in fact he's weaker than Zoro, who we know is weaker than Mihawk

3. Coby isn't top tier, case closed again.


I don't understand the point of any of these examples.
Yamato and Coby aren't swordsmen, so you're right in that the title of WSS isn't by default putting Mihawk above Yamato and Coby without context. But we have enough context/information apart from that, to conclude that Mihawk is stronger than them

The point of the above examples is that it forced you to do standard power scaling assessment of comparing A to B. You could not use the title WSS as a blanket win. And without the blanket win of WSS you have to rely solely on narrative expectation of Mihawk is top tier to make your case against Yamato. So when dealing with characters that are for sure not "swordsman" all you've done is subsituted WSS with Top Tier title. You said Mihawk is Top Tier, Yamato is not Top Tier so Mihawk > Yamato.

But what feats have we seen from Mihawk that are more impressive than Yamato? At this point in the story there are none.

As for Coby again you make the same type of argument. Top Tier vs not Top Tier, where you define what Top Tier is. This is not a feat vs feat power scaling argument anymore and just new semantics of fan based titles.

With Kaku that is interesting can of worms. You argue that Kaku is a swordsman PS because he uses his limbs as a sword even if he doesn't carry one. So now the definition of swordsman to you means anyone who uses anything as a blade even if they don't technically have a sword? If that is the case why is WB not considered WSS? He technically uses a bladed weapon that can cut. He has used it to cut "Top Tier" characters. Is Kaido a swordsman because he has used his body like a blade like Kaku? Are all CP agents that can use Rankakyu swordsmen to?

To me relying on titles, regardless of what they are, as the core of a power scaling argument makes the whole argument weaker. It forces you into a game of semantics and moves you away from an argument based on feats which is what matters most. Instead of just saying I don't know, I can't place Mihawks power level relative to other Yonko level fighters, you end up making a poor argument that is not backed by feats.

^^ same reasoning as above.

You're right that WSS by default wouldn't put Mihawk above them, without context.
The important context here is that WSS also means Mihawk is a top tier, will be amongst the strongest even amongst top tiers. Simply because we have seen the heights of swordsmen in one piece with - Roger, Rayleigh, Shanks, Oden. Yes, 3 of them didn't belong in the same era and can't be compared, but Shanks still exist and is in his prime (albeit without an arm).

I completely agree with this. My point was it sounds ridiculous to argue that one can't conclude that Mihawk is stronger than someone like Coby. This to me seems like a no brainer. But technically if going by WSS title, since Coby is not a swordsman the corollary must be true. And when using feats to make your case for Mihawk being stronger than Coby all you are left with his hype since 0 feats have been shown for Mihawk since Marineford!

I mean, we've had people here claiming Mihawk is some commander tier or YC1+ an year or so ago.
But 1058 shut down most of them, but we still got Albert arguing he's one I guess.

I completely on same page as you. To me it is ridiculous to claim Mihawk will be anything less than Yonko level fighter. Those people were making the reverse type of argument you are making which is to use nothing but feats to downplay a character who hasn't gotten a proper fight. That too is a bad argument in my books.

Ultimately it depends on what you value.
If you care only about feats, and not narrative/portrayal/manga statements. Then yeah, this would be the way to go. But then, there is no reason to assume Rocks was amongst the top even amongst top tiers, Garp was relative Roger/WB, Dragon is a top tier, etc.
But those who have a sense of narrative/author-intent will know all these are true, without even needing to wait for feats.

This is the correct view to have. If one uses all the aspects you mentioned above there is only one logical conclusion you can make - Mihawk is going to be one of the strongest characters in OP and is definitely in the same ball park as those other amazing characters. That is it. You can't make any good conclusions among those top tiers on how they stack against each other without getting into actual feats, which we don't have for a lot of them.

The unbiased take is that, it should be Shanks fans who need to wait for feats.
Because until an anti-feat exists from Mihawk, or until there is something showing Shanks isn't a swordsman.......... the default should be to go by the title/portrayal.

I will anyway agree that Mihawk would need some solid feats before fighting Zoro, or else it would diminish the value/achievement of Zoro taking down Mihawk

This is the part I only semi agree with. The unbiased view is that Shanks fans need to wait and cannot conclude how Shanks stacks against Mihawk. The unbiased view is that Mihawk fans need to wait and cannot conclude how Mihawk stacks against Shanks. The title/portrayal places Mihawk in this top tier but without feats cannot be used to conclude much else.