American Politics

[M3J]

Why would I try to prove that when that's never been my claim? I never said Israel is "the victim". Israeli innocents were the victims on October 7th, sure. But that doesn't make Israel itself a victim. Palestine is CLEARLY being victimized by Israel with constant bombings.

As I've said. Over and over. Ad nauseum. I don't even think you know what my contention is anymore.



Yes you have. I just posted a video of Hamas supporters carrying signs that said things like death to Israel, death to America, and death to the Jews.

As for your link, why in the BLUE FUCK would they think that they could negotiate TWO DAYS AFTER MURDERING 1200 PEOPLE!? There's no negotiation immediately after a terrorist attack. Later maybe, but how naive could they have been? This is even more proof that Hamas as the governmental establishment is a horrible idea.

You made some similar claim months ago and then refused to post any evidence as I've dismissed it for various different reasons. However, Israel is committing a GENOCIDE against Palestine, not "victimizing it with constant bombings." Their intent is to wipe out Palestinians, which they and every single supporter made clear. The fact that Biden continues to help Israel commit genocide while scapegoating Hamas is another nail in the coffin.

True. I thought your argument was that Hamas is evil? I remember condemning Hamas and being disgusted with them when I first learned about Oct 7, but the further I read about Israel and Palestine, the less I could blame Hamas. And then when I saw that Israeli "innocents" blamed IOF for the excessive violence, I realized that Hamas are now likely scapegoated. And then then it didn't help that Israeli hostages and their families were mad at Israel for refusing to negotiate with Hamas to get the hostages back, even when their demands weren't bad.

Looks like that's a video of a group of students against genocide saying that, not Palestinians or Palestinian Americans. In any case, why would anyone opposing the genocide say "death to the Jews" when they literally have Jewish supporters? Most of the supporters will reject right wingers who claim to support Palestine mainly because they're either anti-Semitic or white supremacist or give off that energy, and even Shaun King has been criticized by Palestinian supporters. I've been telling Palestinian supporters to block accounts like Censored men and Jackson Hinkle because they're bigots and pieces of shit.

lol no one who actually and genuinely believes in ending the genocide and giving Palestinians their land back would say "death to the Jews." Death to America and death to Israel? Definitely, given those two countries' histories and their love of genocide. If Israel did not push Palestinians off their lands and committed genocide in its few decades of history, no one would say "Death to Israel," and there'd be no Hamas.

Because they thought Israel cared about its citizens? What I do know is that Israel rejected tons of deals and negotiations from Hamas, even months after the fact, and even after the hostages' families got mad at Israel. Knowing that Hamas have Israeli hostages did not stop Israel from indiscriminately bombing Gaza and taking out their own people, they clearly did not and do not care about them.

Israel wants Hamas to exist because Hamas are the perfect scapegoat. In the first few months, they used Hamas as an excuse to bomb and attack hospitals and residential dwellings because they know people are too dumb and ignorant to take a moment to think.

All I saw is that in March you said Ukraine has some Nazis and seem to imply that Russia isn’t actually bad. That’s not really a reason. It’s just you saying stuff. I guess the point is that you think because your very extreme opinion is not being catered to by the POTUS that enough must feel that way that the election could be tilted out of Biden’s favor. I also don’t get why “Ukraine has some Nazis” is a reason not to help defend them from a literal invasion.

You sound kinda ridiculous. It’s like you think the US government should cut a ton of actually mutually beneficial alliances and allow its enemies to grow significantly more powerful to cater to a region with less population than NYC that would have no qualms with you being stoned to death if you were gay.

Maybe come to terms with that fact that the majority of people (including voters) aren’t nearly as extreme as you are.

I thought Russia was bad back when I was a liberal because of what Dems and Reps said, but now I'm not sure and really have no idea if they are. I'm ignorant in this. I just saw Ukrainian soldiers act like Nazis, and Ukrainian refugees say racist and horrible stuff. I don't think I've said we shouldn't help them at all from being invaded, but when Americans are seeing higher levels of poverty, prices going up, and bad infrastructure, do you think that money should be going to foreign countries? When the government keeps insisting there's not enough money to get rid of student loans, improve healthcare, and etc, it makes them look bad when they send foreign countries billions of dollars.

"stoned to death if you were gay" doesn't work when LGBT+ people are literally being murdered in western countries. USA has seen a high rate of transgender women being murdered, Americans definitely don't have any right to call out another country's stance on LGBT+, especially when Israel is homophobic as well.

What's very extreme about saying Biden should try to stop the genocide? Or that he should help Americans out before helping out other countries? Or that he should cancel student loans like he promised to? Or that he shouldn't have rolled back covid protection? You sound more ridiculous claiming this is extreme. Also, I don't think I've really presented my actual views on this, maybe once or twice since October if that.

Biden supporters are definitely extreme considering they're okay with genocide and bullying.

Welp, my point was more about people who don't vote. These folk are probably not going to move politicians or elections. And anyone who thinks trump is going to be more sympathetic towards palestinians than biden are idiots.

Thankfully, no one has thought that, but they do think Trump can't get worse than Biden as Biden is making Islamophobia worse. And on top of that, protesters are being beaten up, arrested, expelled, and kicked out of their housings, while Biden doesn't seem to be stepping in or saying anything about that, despite "free speech" and "First Amendment."

I mean, it is possible that if people thought their votes counted, then Clinton might have won 2016 instead of Trump. That attitude doesn't make sense, especially amongst the left, when electoral votes swung towards Trump's favor against Clinton or Biden's favor because of those few voters.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2024, Original Post Date: May 1, 2024 ---

 

[ninjabot]

You made some similar claim months ago and then refused to post any evidence as I've dismissed it for various different reasons.

Prove it. If I typed it here, then you can find it and quote it. Right now.

True. I thought your argument was that Hamas is evil? I remember condemning Hamas and being disgusted with them when I first learned about Oct 7, but the further I read about Israel and Palestine, the less I could blame Hamas. And then when I saw that Israeli "innocents" blamed IOF for the excessive violence, I realized that Hamas are now likely scapegoated. And then then it didn't help that Israeli hostages and their families were mad at Israel for refusing to negotiate with Hamas to get the hostages back, even when their demands weren't bad.

I don't know if I've ever called them evil. I just remember calling them terrorists. And you never denounced Hamas openly and even made fun of the normal people who want Palestinian supporters to denounce Hamas so if you DID denounce Hamas openly it wasn't here in this forum. In fact, it wasn't until after I posted a video of released hostages claiming that Israeli hostages were raped in captivity that you denounced "the rapists", and not Hamas as an organization.

If I get bored enough I'll scrub your posts over the months and put together a manifesto of just how dismissive you are of the evils committed by Hamas. Maybe.

Looks like that's a video of a group of students against genocide saying that, not Palestinians or Palestinian Americans. In any case, why would anyone opposing the genocide say "death to the Jews" when they literally have Jewish supporters? Most of the supporters will reject right wingers who claim to support Palestine mainly because they're either anti-Semitic or white supremacist or give off that energy, and even Shaun King has been criticized by Palestinian supporters. I've been telling Palestinian supporters to block accounts like Censored men and Jackson Hinkle because they're bigots and pieces of shit.

First off, wrong video. I'm not talking about the American ones, I'm talking about the one with all the Houthis in it. Not Palestinian, sure. But pro-Palestinian. As for the bolded? For the same reason that conservatives still have anti-black/anti-immigrant policies despite there being black and immigrant conservatives in America: because only a FEW of their purposes align. Not all of them. And not the major ones. The protestors in that video I posted with the hate speech signs want the people perpetrating the genocide to DIE. And those people are Jewish people. Zionists sure, but Jewish Zionists. Israeli Zionists. This "Zionists and Jews aren't the same thing" argument fails when you consider that we're talking about Israel specifically, where the vast majority of Jews are Zionists. Calling for the deaths of Zionists means calling for the deaths of almost an entire nation. They're just being honest.

"stoned to death if you were gay" doesn't work when LGBT+ people are literally being murdered in western countries. USA has seen a high rate of transgender women being murdered, Americans definitely don't have any right to call out another country's stance on LGBT+, especially when Israel is homophobic as well.

Yes, it does! When LGBT+ folk are killed in the west it's DESPITE majority opinion and is punished. When they're killed in Middle Eastern nations it's BECAUSE of it and encouraged.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2024, Original Post Date: May 1, 2024 ---

Also, for the record, I don't condone this^

Attacking these protesters make people sympathetic to their cause. It'll backfire.

 

[catagon87]

I thought Russia was bad back when I was a liberal because of what Dems and Reps said, but now I'm not sure and really have no idea if they are. I'm ignorant in this. I just saw Ukrainian soldiers act like Nazis, and Ukrainian refugees say racist and horrible stuff. I don't think I've said we shouldn't help them at all from being invaded, but when Americans are seeing higher levels of poverty, prices going up, and bad infrastructure, do you think that money should be going to foreign countries? When the government keeps insisting there's not enough money to get rid of student loans, improve healthcare, and etc, it makes them look bad when they send foreign countries billions of dollars.

For one, you can cherry-pick soldiers from any army in the entire world saying racist / horrible stuff. The fact of the matter is that Ukraine is being invaded by a hostile nation, and that is a threat to the overall balance of the world and especially the EU, which is one of the USA's allies. Nobody wants Russia to take Ukraine other than Russia, China, North Korea, and probably Iran. Ukraine does not have the resources to battle Russia indefinitely, and most of what we've sent Ukraine has been munitions (not cash). Very few countries have the ability to manufacture munitions like the USA, so we are likely the only country in the world that actually can "save" Ukraine from invasion. This is also aside from the fact that Ukraine is a huge agricultural producer in Europe.

So yes, I do think that money we should be aiding Ukraine, as munitions aren't going to improve healthcare or pay peoples' loans. I don't think it makes the USA look bad to for once help a country that actually needs it.

"stoned to death if you were gay" doesn't work when LGBT+ people are literally being murdered in western countries. USA has seen a high rate of transgender women being murdered, Americans definitely don't have any right to call out another country's stance on LGBT+, especially when Israel is homophobic as well.

The difference is that if you kill an LGBT+ person in the USA you will be charged with murder. That is not the case in Gaza. Crimes against LGBT+ are overlooked there. You're arguing that because our country has some close-minded people (bearing in mind humans have free will) that it's the same as a country essentially turning a blind eye to crimes against LGBT+ and in many cases even criminalizing their behavior.

What's very extreme about saying Biden should try to stop the genocide? Or that he should help Americans out before helping out other countries? Or that he should cancel student loans like he promised to? Or that he shouldn't have rolled back covid protection? You sound more ridiculous claiming this is extreme. Also, I don't think I've really presented my actual views on this, maybe once or twice since October if that.

Biden supporters are definitely extreme considering they're okay with genocide and bullying.

You're building a straw-man here by implying that helping another country means he's not helping his own, and that by not stopping a sovereign nation from doing what they want to do he's endorsing a genocide, and you're making a lot of assumptions about how much power he actually has. Also, student loans should not be cancelled across the board. That's not how economics works. That would instantly add $2T to the deficit. Student loan borrowers should just gain the ability to declare bankruptcy to discharge said loans and shift some actual risk to the lenders for these loans like with literally any other loan.

COVID protections were in place for when COVID was at its height. COVID has leveled off and is not nearly as dangerous as it was two years ago.

The implication that supporting Biden means you're OK with genocide is crazy. I could easily just spin that that by not supporting Biden you clearly support Trump who would be happy to see your beloved Palestinians reduced to nuclear dust. Not to mention there are several active genocides in the world at the moment that have nothing to do with Israel that you don't seem to care about at all.

 

[M3J]

These 70 House Democrats and 21 Republicans voted against a bill to crack down on antisemitism on college campuses

Progressives opposed the bill because it would require the government to use a definition of antisemitism that includes criticism of Israel.

www.businessinsider.com

This is embarrassing, and coming from the party that loves to tout free speech and First Amendment rights incorrectly. What are they going to do to the Jews that criticize Israel? And the fact that this is bipartisan is even worse even if more Dems voted against the bill. All this, and protesters being brutalized, arrested, and having their lives/future ruined, just because they all oppose genocide.

 

[ninjabot]

 

[xi0]

Appropriate way to summarize this entire campus protest topic

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2024, Original Post Date: May 3, 2024 ---

oh except the whole part where Skinner labels the children as terrorists and thereby emboldens people to confront them with violence. Forgot that part.

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2024 ---

I feel like once you get to the point where you're unwilling to talk about why you believe what you believe, then you've already accepted that you don't have good enough justification for said belief.

Or it's more about not giving free content to people who want to "debate" or those who are "just asking questions". Right wing types have done this type of content for years now and we always ridicule it, but when Destiny does it all of a sudden it's valid? Please.

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2024 ---

Does Destiny want to be associated with buffoons like this? Idk maybe he does

 

[ninjabot]

Or it's more about not giving free content to people who want to "debate" or those who are "just asking questions". Right wing types have done this type of content for years now and we always ridicule it, but when Destiny does it all of a sudden it's valid? Please.

Unironically YES. I've watched every one of Destiny's "Change My Mind" style college campus student conversations and not a single one was something Crowder-esque, where he farmed dunks on unwitting children to make their worldview seem ridiculous. We ridicule conservative grifters for doing this because it's always inherently dishonest, with the intention of straw-manning our positions. Not because they're conservative.

I love debate, and it's important. You HAVE to have your ideas challenged to make sure you have them for the right reasons.

Does Destiny want to be associated with buffoons like this? Idk maybe he does

It's not about association, it's about dialogue. And fighting bad ideas with good ones. Not everyone will turn their nose up and snobbishly dismiss what their "opponents" have to say. Some people will take these conversations to heart, and then introspect, and then deconstruct, and then... change.

But it can't happen if no one's willing to talk. Destiny is. And asshole though he may be, we need more people willing to talk. To everyone.[/quote]

EDIT: Oh, I thought you were talking about the kids being buffoons not the grifter chick. But I'd argue he's built up enough of a renown for his political advocacy and debates that no one would mistake him for her ilk. For fuck's sake he's debated Norman Finkelstein and Omar Bhaddar.

 

[M3J]

x.com

twitter.com

Biden is endorsing fascism, and his dumbass supporters are allowing him to get away with it. He's acting as if protesters were the rowdy ones when they were mostly peaceful, while it was the police and the Zionists that got violent. Even staff got attacked trying to protect their students. It's like the man wants to lose without saying he wants to lose!

 

[xi0]

Unironically YES. I've watched every one of Destiny's "Change My Mind" style college campus student conversations and not a single one was something Crowder-esque, where he farmed dunks on unwitting children to make their worldview seem ridiculous. We ridicule conservative grifters for doing this because it's always inherently dishonest, with the intention of straw-manning our positions. Not because they're conservative.

I love debate, and it's important. You HAVE to have your ideas challenged to make sure you have them for the right reasons.

What is there to debate with this topic? What is gained from it? He is a content creator, not an advocate. He's doing what he's doing for clicks. He's 100% doing what he's doing to dunk on kids, and that's 1000% what his audience tunes into see. Just because he canvasses for Dems and some of what he says isn't demonstrably awful doesn't make this something unique and beneficial to anyone but himself and his profile.

It's not about association, it's about dialogue. And fighting bad ideas with good ones. Not everyone will turn their nose up and snobbishly dismiss what their "opponents" have to say. Some people will take these conversations to heart, and then introspect, and then deconstruct, and then... change.

But it can't happen if no one's willing to talk. Destiny is. And asshole though he may be, we need more people willing to talk. To everyone.

Does "fighting bad ideas with good ones" require zionist and genocide apologia?

The people on college campuses engaging in these protests are already radicalized and putting very real things on the line to do what they're doing. There's zero benefit for them to humor him or anyone else looking to farm content over it. Them not talking to him is not them avoiding challenges to their ideas...

EDIT: Oh, I thought you were talking about the kids being buffoons not the grifter chick. But I'd argue he's built up enough of a renown for his political advocacy and debates that no one would mistake him for her ilk. For fuck's sake he's debated Norman Finkelstein and Omar Bhaddar.

Yeah and he embarrassed himself both times. You're placing far too much importance on what he does and why he does it IMO.

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2024, Original Post Date: May 3, 2024 ---

Welp, guess there's no point then... right?

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2024 ---

Funny how that works

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2024 ---

 

[ninjabot]

What is there to debate with this topic? What is gained from it? He is a content creator, not an advocate. He's doing what he's doing for clicks. He's 100% doing what he's doing to dunk on kids, and that's 1000% what his audience tunes into see. Just because he canvasses for Dems and some of what he says isn't demonstrably awful doesn't make this something unique and beneficial to anyone but himself and his profile.

You're just demonstrably wrong (about him doing the same thing that they do). Whether it's because you haven't seen a Ben Shapiro or Matt Walsh vid lately, or because you refuse to watch any of Destiny's conversations with college students. You're just wrong if you think he's doing the same thing.

EDIT: Forgot to explain what there is to debate. Several political debates about Israel/Palestine are about whether Biden should be supported or not and if it'll actually help Palestine to try to strongarm Biden into providing more support. Some are about what news sources are trustworthy to learn about the conflict. Some are about whether anti-Zionism is tantamount to anti-Semitism (technically no, but the line is getting more and more blurry). Some are whether or not it's an actual genocide or not, which I'm willing to bite the bullet and claim it is even though I'm not convinced, just to skip past the moralizing.

Does "fighting bad ideas with good ones" require zionist and genocide apologia?

Yes, unfortunately. Truth matters, even if it falls on the side of your political opponents. For fuck's sake, you could argue I'm a genocide apologist for all the pushback I'm giving to M3J. Doesn't make the things I'm saying any less true.

The people on college campuses engaging in these protests are already radicalized and putting very real things on the line to do what they're doing. There's zero benefit for them to humor him or anyone else looking to farm content over it.e Them not talking to him is not them avoiding challenges to their idas...

Why can't it be both? And as for the benefit for them to humor him, they get the same benefit he does sans ad revenue from youtube, provided they know their shit: they get to test their ideas in real time and see if they hold them for the correct reasons while also, potentially, engendering respect from Steven's own community, causing the lefties that watch his content (of which there's a considerable amount) to mobilize as well. It's a tug of war for resources: the resource being political support.

Yeah and he embarrassed himself both times. You're placing far too much importance on what he does and why he does it IMO.

That's... what?

First off, the Omar Baddar debate wasn't out in full yet when I posted what I posted: Breaking Points just showed a preview of it so they could poison the well before people could watch Steven go to work. It was literally them pulling out all the things that they assumed would make Steven look bad. It's why I didn't link it here, because I want people to see the full context, so if that's what you're going off of, their ploy worked.

Unless you meant their first conversation... in which:


Londerbox also went over this debate in a video of his own and showed everywhere Steven was factual, and also nonfactual. So while it wasn't his best showing, he's been making progress evidenced in his later debates.

Secondly, do you HONESTLY think Steven did worse than Finkelstein did in that debate!?

 

[M3J]

What is there to debate with this topic? What is gained from it? He is a content creator, not an advocate. He's doing what he's doing for clicks. He's 100% doing what he's doing to dunk on kids, and that's 1000% what his audience tunes into see. Just because he canvasses for Dems and some of what he says isn't demonstrably awful doesn't make this something unique and beneficial to anyone but himself and his profile.



Does "fighting bad ideas with good ones" require zionist and genocide apologia?

The people on college campuses engaging in these protests are already radicalized and putting very real things on the line to do what they're doing. There's zero benefit for them to humor him or anyone else looking to farm content over it. Them not talking to him is not them avoiding challenges to their ideas...



Yeah and he embarrassed himself both times. You're placing far too much importance on what he does and why he does it IMO.

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2024, Original Post Date: May 3, 2024 ---

Welp, guess there's no point then... right?

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2024 ---

Funny how that works

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2024 ---

but Biden is still better than Trump! We don't know how but he just is!!

 

[ninjabot]

but Biden is still better than Trump! We don't know how but he just is!!

We do know how.

3 people have explained to you how over the past week.

xi0 has explained to you how previously as well.

What are you doing?

 

[M3J]

We do know how.

3 people have explained to you how over the past week.

xi0 has explained to you how previously as well.

What are you doing?

Beginning to question my stance in the past week or so after seeing how Biden has responded to the protests. Instead of calling out the cops for causing violence, he's blaming it on protesters. Literally the main reason why I have not talked about Biden still being a better option amongst the Palestine supporters is because of the genocide, as annoyed as I got at people preferring Trump over Biden.

Like, how do you tell people to vote for someone who's allowing a genocide to happen, while they're losing their own family members? This is one hill I will not get on without a good reason, especially given the other domestic issues that have happened under Biden that I mentioned.

 

[ninjabot]

Beginning to question my stance in the past week or so after seeing how Biden has responded to the protests. Instead of calling out the cops for causing violence, he's blaming it on protesters. Literally the main reason why I have not talked about Biden still being a better option amongst the Palestine supporters is because of the genocide, as annoyed as I got at people preferring Trump over Biden.

I know why. What I don't know is why you're willing to make it worse.

Like, how do you tell people to vote for someone who's allowing a genocide to happen, while they're losing their own family members? This is one hill I will not get on without a good reason, especially given the other domestic issues that have happened under Biden that I mentioned.

By proving to them that the opponent won't stop the genocide either, but will also make things worse for the people being genocided, AND for the people in America.

All insults and posturing aside: I'm asking you this as someone who can't understand you no matter how hard I try. Because I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

What do you think Trump will do to help Palestinian people?

--- Double Post Merged, May 4, 2024, Original Post Date: May 4, 2024 ---

Let's try it this way:

Biden and Trump are both Zionists. That's a given. So let's assume they both start at a Zionism power level of 5 out of 10. So what else do we know about these two people that would let us know whether or not they would try to stop the Palestinian genocide?

Trump, early in his presidency, did a Muslim ban. I won't say he hates Muslims.... but I will say he's willing to throw Muslims under the bus in order to appease the conservative voter base. And American conservatives hate Muslims. Not generally, let's say... Evangelicals hate Muslims. Or at the very least, Islam.

Trump needs to appeal to his voter base to get into the white house. To do that he needs to lean into xenophobia like he did the first time. Build That Wall, and the like. But now we have this huge issue that would get him votes from American Muslims and young college-age Lefties. He could say "I'm gonna stop the Palestinian genocide so vote for me!"

But he hasn't. He's continued to be in lock-step with Biden on Zionism, and has consistently spoken about how crazy the protestors are. Biden has however, at least taken steps to aid the people in Gaza. I'll say that at least prevents him from gaining an extra point. But Trump should gain an extra one.

Trump 6
Biden 5

So let's say the protests work and you all throw away democracy. Say you let Trump win the election to spite Democrats that don't give a shit about the genocide. And then... in order to appease the Republicans that voted for Trump (the evangelical Zionists that hate Muslims and love Israel), Trump decides to not only stop whatever aid Biden has sanctioned... but decides to not push back against Netanyahu on anything. And even encourages him to be more brave with the IDF raids and bombings.

What do you do now? Are you proud of yourself for causing more Palestinian children to die? Was spiting Democrats worth the blood that's now on your hands?

--- Double Post Merged, May 4, 2024 ---

 

[wojak]

By proving to them that the opponent won't stop the genocide either, but will also make things worse for the people being genocided, AND for the people in America.

Not from US, but I am sure this logic won’t work for a significant number of people who takes the issue seriously. It’s easier to just not vote for them than to vote for someone who in principal is supporting Israel while lying nominal lip service to the other side to get some votes.

If dems do lose their votes, dem officials mostly have themselves to blame. For taking their vote for granted while only standing by the only defence that the other side would do worse. This stance does not inspire people to go out and vote.

Let’s say, trumps stance “we will build a wall to keep Mexicans out”, this may not be a stance supported by majority but for the people who supports this stance, it actually motivates them to go out and vote.

Dems defence for most cases are fear mongering about a republican presidency. And for the people whose life were mostly unaffected by Trump presidency, are less likely to give in to the fear compared to last election unless their life dramatically improved under Biden admin. Or the significant policies they support has been implemented by Biden. Which so far may not have been the case for many, I guess.

 

[ninjabot]

It might not work, sure. But it won't be because it's not true. It'll be because people aren't willing to accept it.

Which... I can understand being too emotional to be reasonable. It's just unbelievably frustrating to see someone break their nose to spite their face.

 

[wojak]

Well, it seems democrat party won’t change their stance on the Israel-Palestine issue unless significant number of their electorate takes this issue seriously enough to affect elections outcome. So it’s not the people to blame. They are basically exercising the only bit of power they have to make a bit of change.

 

[catagon87]

Not from US, but I am sure this logic won’t work for a significant number of people who takes the issue seriously. It’s easier to just not vote for them than to vote for someone who in principal is supporting Israel while lying nominal lip service to the other side to get some votes.

If dems do lose their votes, dem officials mostly have themselves to blame. For taking their vote for granted while only standing by the only defence that the other side would do worse. This stance does not inspire people to go out and vote.

Let’s say, trumps stance “we will build a wall to keep Mexicans out”, this may not be a stance supported by majority but for the people who supports this stance, it actually motivates them to go out and vote.

Dems defence for most cases are fear mongering about a republican presidency. And for the people whose life were mostly unaffected by Trump presidency, are less likely to give in to the fear compared to last election unless their life dramatically improved under Biden admin. Or the significant policies they support has been implemented by Biden. Which so far may not have been the case for many, I guess.

The problem is that the Israel/Gaza conflict is not nearly as important to voters as this thread would have you believe. It takes up a ton of this thread because it’s an important issue to the very few who frequent it. I can tell you that most people here care about inflation, housing affordability, health care, having a job, student loan reform, etc.. much more than they care about Palestine/Israel. People care about it, sure, but it’s not really the average voter’s problem to sort out. The biggest threat to Biden is RFK, not the conflict across the world.

That said, Democrats have always been poor strategists when compared to Republicans. So you can usually count on them to lose an election they should be able to win.

 

[ninjabot]

The problem is that the importance of the Israel/Gaza conflict is not nearly as important to voters as this thread would have you believe.

One and done. Using the word "genocide" doesn't evoke the emotional response that M3J thinks it does either so saying it over and over again isn't moving the needle any.

It's why I used the comparison like a month back about how when you're watching tv, and a commercial comes on about children starving in African nations (with swollen bellies and everything)... you'll get sad for a moment, and you'll wonder why nothing is being done about the starving children... but then that's the full extent of your concern. You wait through the rest of the commercial and then just finish watching your tv show.

That's what the Israel/Palestine conflict is to Americans. It's starving children in Africa. No one cares. It's sad to say, but moralizing won't help the situation. We need people to be realistic. Because real solutions are at the end of that path.

I am curious though: has there ever been a presidential candidate that lost the presidency because they ignored the protests of like... anti-war hippies?

 

[M3J]

I know why. What I don't know is why you're willing to make it worse.



By proving to them that the opponent won't stop the genocide either, but will also make things worse for the people being genocided, AND for the people in America.

All insults and posturing aside: I'm asking you this as someone who can't understand you no matter how hard I try. Because I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

What do you think Trump will do to help Palestinian people?

How is it going to get any worse than Biden allowing the genocide to happen? How is it worse than Israel literally saying "fuck you" to the international court and continuing to hurt, torture, and kill Palestinians and even go after other countries? I mean, I realize you don't know or talk to any pro-Palestine people or know much about this subject, but Palestinian Americans themselves acknowledged this long ago and have said it can't get any worse.

Palestinian Americans and Muslims know Trump won't help them. I'd say more, but I don't want to speak on their behalf, especially when I'm pretty sure my memory's not accurate.

But I do know years ago I thought the same as you - candidates can't be 100% perfect, and it shouldn't matter as much what their views on Israel v Palestine were. Then not only did I see the pictures, watch the videos, and hear horror stories of what Israel was and is doing, but how it also affects USA, and now I realize my mistake.

Let's try it this way:

Biden and Trump are both Zionists. That's a given. So let's assume they both start at a Zionism power level of 5 out of 10. So what else do we know about these two people that would let us know whether or not they would try to stop the Palestinian genocide?

Trump, early in his presidency, did a Muslim ban. I won't say he hates Muslims.... but I will say he's willing to throw Muslims under the bus in order to appease the conservative voter base. And American conservatives hate Muslims. Not generally, let's say... Evangelicals hate Muslims. Or at the very least, Islam.

You and I both know that he'll do what his voter base says, and they hate Muslims.

Reason #1 why I was Biden for 2024 until last month, I believe.

However, Biden keeps throwing Muslims under the bus. He keeps bringing up Hamas and ignores photos and videos of Zionists' violence in Gaza and in USA. Do you know how bad Biden looked when he brought up seeing pictures of beheaded babies, ONLY for the White House to walk that back and say it never happened? He's even calling protesters violent, but he's ignoring the violence actually started or committed by Zionists.

Trump needs to appeal to his voter base to get into the white house. To do that he needs to lean into xenophobia like he did the first time. Build That Wall, and the like. But now we have this huge issue that would get him votes from American Muslims and young college-age Lefties. He could say "I'm gonna stop the Palestinian genocide so vote for me!"

But he hasn't. He's continued to be in lock-step with Biden on Zionism, and has consistently spoken about how crazy the protestors are. Biden has however, at least taken steps to aid the people in Gaza. I'll say that at least prevents him from gaining an extra point. But Trump should gain an extra one.

Trump 6
Biden 5

Biden has barely done anything to help people. He's continuing to help Israel commit genocide and giving them billions of dollars while Palestinians get so little, like expired food. That's a huge part of the problem, Biden isn't doing what anyone with compassion should, for Palestinians.

Trump knows he'd lose tons of support from his voter base with that risk, because the left and the Muslims won't vote for him. There are a minority that'd be dumb enough to, but overall they know he's a horrible president. However, Trump has carried out or tried to carry out his campaign promises, so I dunno here.

So let's say the protests work and you all throw away democracy. Say you let Trump win the election to spite Democrats that don't give a shit about the genocide. And then... in order to appease the Republicans that voted for Trump (the evangelical Zionists that hate Muslims and love Israel), Trump decides to not only stop whatever aid Biden has sanctioned... but decides to not push back against Netanyahu on anything. And even encourages him to be more brave with the IDF raids and bombings.

What do you do now? Are you proud of yourself for causing more Palestinian children to die? Was spiting Democrats worth the blood that's now on your hands?

--- Double Post Merged, May 4, 2024 ---

Protests are part of democracy. Protests causing universities to divest from Israel (few already did) is democracy. Protests resulting in more attention to what's going on in Israel and resulting in more support to Palestine is democracy (even the other way around).

But it'd be Democrats letting Trump win if they continue to stay with Biden. By forcing people to vote for Biden or shaming people into voting for Biden, you're the ones actually throwing away democracy. The refusal to vote for him isn't just to spite him or Dems, but it's because those that don't want to vote for him don't believe in him.

As I said multiple times, Biden promised to save Roe v Wade, cancel student loans, do more against covid, and take down the wall, for starters, but he did not uphold those promises, regardless of fault. It did not make sense for Biden to try and get people back in office when working remotely was a much better option, and he also stopped covid support like free tests or sending test kits or something, which I forgot. Covid's still out there even if the media doesn't cover it as much.

Biden isn't pushing back against Netanyahu, he's just doing that publicly for image.

PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ARE ALREADY DYING!! That's the problem! No one is going to see Trump doing any worse than Biden, except the only difference might be Trump actually doing more to stop the genocide for whatever self-serving reason!

Gaza: Number of children killed higher than from four years of world conflict

Amid reports of fresh Israeli airstrikes in Gaza overnight into Wednesday, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) said that more children have been killed there in recent months than in four years of conflict worldwide. “This war is a war on children. It is a war on their childhood and...

turkiye.un.org

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But um, Destiny just admitted to spending limited time to doing research. Debating isn't enough. Funnily, people that did actually do the research, like Hozier or Macklemore, support Palestine.

Not from US, but I am sure this logic won’t work for a significant number of people who takes the issue seriously. It’s easier to just not vote for them than to vote for someone who in principal is supporting Israel while lying nominal lip service to the other side to get some votes.

If dems do lose their votes, dem officials mostly have themselves to blame. For taking their vote for granted while only standing by the only defence that the other side would do worse. This stance does not inspire people to go out and vote.

Let’s say, trumps stance “we will build a wall to keep Mexicans out”, this may not be a stance supported by majority but for the people who supports this stance, it actually motivates them to go out and vote.

Dems defence for most cases are fear mongering about a republican presidency. And for the people whose life were mostly unaffected by Trump presidency, are less likely to give in to the fear compared to last election unless their life dramatically improved under Biden admin. Or the significant policies they support has been implemented by Biden. Which so far may not have been the case for many, I guess.

Exactly! Especially when rights have been lost and promises broken.

But also, for the left that know Biden continued Trump's wall project, it's even less reason to vote Biden. And aren't immigrants in custody still being separated and all that stuff that happened under Trump? Fear mongering against Trump doesn't work when those same fears are happening under Biden.

The problem is that the Israel/Gaza conflict is not nearly as important to voters as this thread would have you believe. It takes up a ton of this thread because it’s an important issue to the very few who frequent it. I can tell you that most people here care about inflation, housing affordability, health care, having a job, student loan reform, etc.. much more than they care about Palestine/Israel. People care about it, sure, but it’s not really the average voter’s problem to sort out. The biggest threat to Biden is RFK, not the conflict across the world.

I have also mentioned other issues like student loans, inflation, and more hurting/killing Biden's chance. Saying it's not the average voter's problem is wild when our tax money is literally being used to fund genocide instead of programs that can help us.