Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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They definitely likely this happened prior to them becoming immortal since they guaranteed had to prove themselves worthy before becoming immortal. No way anyone like Imu would waste such a gift on a person more akin to a Spandam. But I do think they must have a weakness that can let them get hurt seriously enough that they can't instantly heal like they are doing now. In a weird way I think of them as the new "logia" where some trick will have to be learned by protagonist. I can't help but wonder what would happen if they are injured using kairoseki for example? Or can they die from drowning? What happens if someone completely vaporizes every part of them where there is nothing to regenerate from? Immortality in manga/anime is never full immunity.
There is most certainly going to be a trick to immortality. I don't know about Sea Stone being effective though. We don't know if they gained those abiltiies from DFs or through other means, so the sea may not be weakness for them.
eah sure I can elaborate on how I came to this conclusion, which at the core boils down to using similar criteria as you did and comparing it to input/output of previous major 1v1 fights Zoro was involved in (I think group ones don't help much in these cases). I also just use these as is and do not add interpretation as a reader e.g. in Zoro V Lucci the fight was long is a fact regardless of if you think its due to plot or its due to actual challenge Zoro faced. However, in return I also do weigh duration pretty low on my criteria since it is not really as easy to know the length of a fight and its not a good standard since Oda can make them be minutes, hours, or days within the story.
Low Diff - Fight was not challenging and easily won without sustaining any notable injuries and without having to use any powerful techniques.
Mid Diff- Fight was somewhat challenging and took effort, some injuries may be sustained, and fighter used some serious techniques.
High Diff- Fight was challenging and took effort, some fatigue and even serious injuries may be sustained, and fighter used the upper end of their techniques.
Extreme Diff - Fight was very challenging and took life/death effort, serious injuries sustained, and fighter used the best level of techniques they have (may even surpass prior output).
I roughly agree with this.
However, your mid diff and high diff are kinda similar.
Here is my criteria.
No diff: low effort, no injury. Example: Zoro vs Monet. Low diff: respectable effort was there, but no injury and overwhelming defeat. Example: Luffy vs Lucci, Zoro vs Pica Mid diff: respectable effort was there, minor injuries in process. Example: Kaido vs 1010 Luffy, Doflamingo vs Law. High diff: high effort, sustained significant injuries. Example: Zoro vs Kaku, Sanji vs Jyabura, Kaido vs 1026 Luffy Extreme diff: maximum effort, sustained major injuries by end of fight. Example: Akainu vs Aokiji, most Luffy arc fights.
You said Zoro vs Kaku was high diff, and I agree.
Look at what Kaku did to him. Pushed him significantly, landed many hits on him, made Zoro use his strongest ability which he has only used THRICE in the series.
Also, Zoro vs Mihawk was a neg diff in favour of Mihawk.
Zoro V LucciHigh Diff (bordering on Mid Diff)Okay Starting for Both (they had both fought Seraphim, but Lucci has also fought Luffy prior which I'd say makes him worse off to start)Medium/LongZoro used his best (used KoH) and standard 3 sword styleNo serious injuries but appears scuffed up and tired
They started at around similar level.
Let's say at 80-90% hp, had some bandages, but very pretty much fine. Yes, Lucci faced G5, but that was a day earlier, and he got up with just a bandaid in no time. Considering he's an awakened zoan and that injury was low to begin with, a day is enough to heal up the damages.
Zoro didn't use KoH, there was no smoke in the attack that landed on Lucci.
Unless you are talking about that one panel of smoke, which we can't tell with certainty that it's KoH. Because we see smoke in both advanced armament overflow, as well as KoH.
KoH is usually accompanied by tons of long lightning trails, since it is overuse of advanced armament + advanced conqueror's.
And here we obviously have to check author intent as well.
Zoro vs Lucci had also more of Zoro in nitoryuu mode.
So, is Lucci ~ green smoke santoryuu Zoro ~ base nittoryuu Zoro? No! This is simple stall piece, where Oda have characters clash around for a while, for plot to move forward. There was little thought put behind this fight other than the intent that Lucci was strong enough to stall/keep-up with a non serious Zoro.
Basically for me Zoro v Lucci is closest to fights like he had with Ohm, Kaku, and Killer where he did have to exert himself to win but walked away able to continue fighting (fight against Killer being the sole exception). I can definitely see why some say Mid Diff but for me he appeared to try more against Lucci/exert himself more in that fight than he did compared to fights like Brahm, Ryuma, and Pica. I'd say this Lucci fight is like Pica fight in that both are close to the boundary between Mid/High Diff. In the case of Pica it fell on the Mid side but was close to being High especially if Pica managed to do just a little bit more or require more out of Zoro, and Lucci for me would have been Mid Diff had we not seen KoH used and Lucci continuing to fight after.
In no way is Lucci vs Zoro even remotely comparable to Zoro vs Kaku. No offense, but this is an objectively ridiculous comparison.
Zoro vs Kaku:
- Kaku injured him a lot, landed hits on him.
- tanked named attacks from Zoro
- Zoro used bandana
- Zoro used his strongest technique till date: Asura
Zoro vs Lucci:
- stall piece with clashes
- no bandana
- zero injuries
- fight ended with a single named attack, a mid-end attack without KoH
Pica, like Lucci, was also a low-mid diff fight as well, not anywhere near a high diff.
Zoro walked over him. Zero injuries. I suppose Lucci pushed him a bit more, because Pica was just running and it just came down to isolating him from the ground. But then again, Zoro used his 2nd or 3rd strongest technique against Pica's mountain, which ups the effort.
Anyway, if these are your criteria for a high diff battle.
Let me ask you this. Was Kaido vs 1010 Luffy a high-extreme diff battle? Because based on your criteria, Luffy landed hits on him and injured him, they clashed and fought for a while, Kaido used his hybrid mode.
If you answer yes, at least you will be consistent with your takes, and we can just agree to disagree here. Cause from my perspective, Kaido vs 1010 Luffy was just a lower-end mid diff. Kaido didn't use drunken modes or FS and took him out by exerting decent amount of power.
Also, what diff was G5 Luffy vs Lucci?
Lasted had a clash with significant amount of haki used, fought for some time, tanked named attacks and only knocked down briefly, up with little injuries.
Somehow it seems like users are unanimous here that it was a low diff or maybe even lower than low-diff somehow.
People apply heavy double standards here when it comes to judging Zoro.
I am not saying you are necessarily doing it intentionally (if I thought you were being intentionally disingenuousm I wouldn't even bother with long essays lol), but many others do for agendas.
I do agree they were retconned but not as badly as some others. And yes I can believe something harder than steel could cause issues to strong fighters even today. We have seen people in cages many times unable to escape even when not DF users and the chains at times are not kairoseki. This may also just be Oda doing his usual but techniques that trap, especially DF ones are usually difficult to deal with for all levels of fighters. I explained my thoughts in this previous post I made in chapter thread:
Interesting read there.
I tend to agree. It's a mix of retcon + narrative weight.
Where do you rate Enel, with support of the narrative and context?
Oda said he would have 500 million if he was a pirate back in the days, and it was pre bounty inflation where top commanders like Ace had similar bounty as well.
IMO dude has admiral level attack power (has one of the most impressive attack power feats till date), mobility likely only 2nd to kizaru, and top tier observation haki; but his armament is non existent. Probably weaker than all 1st commanders (can make a case to be in that tier too), but stronger than every other commanders IMO.
I roughly agree with this.
However, your mid diff and high diff are kinda similar.
Here is my criteria.
No diff: low effort, no injury. Example: Zoro vs Monet. Low diff: respectable effort was there, but no injury and overwhelming defeat. Example: Luffy vs Lucci, Zoro vs Pica Mid diff: respectable effort was there, minor injuries in process. Example: Kaido vs 1010 Luffy, Doflamingo vs Law. High diff: high effort, sustained significant injuries. Example: Zoro vs Kaku, Sanji vs Jyabura, Kaido vs 1026 Luffy Extreme diff: maximum effort, sustained major injuries by end of fight. Example: Akainu vs Aokiji, most Luffy arc fights.
You said Zoro vs Kaku was high diff, and I agree.
Look at what Kaku did to him. Pushed him significantly, landed many hits on him, made Zoro use his strongest ability which he has only used THRICE in the series.
Also, Zoro vs Mihawk was a neg diff in favour of Mihawk.
I think these are good definitions and do agree with most of it. Where I think you put more weight than I do is the injuries received, whereas I put more weight on the level of effort exerted by the fighter I'm evaluating. For example you have Zoro v Kaku as high diff where Zoro clearly put effort and did get injured, but how injured was he really e.g. he went on to continue fighting relatively okay afterwards? Compare that to Zoro v Killer, where Zoro didn't put as much offensive effort (heck he only had 2 swords) but sustained a far more critical injury resulting in him passing out right after - would you consider that extreme diff?
Haha I included the Mihawk one since Zoro put in hella effort but yeah was neg diff.
Honestly this is making me realize how much of an art power scaling is in this manga.
They started at around similar level.
Let's say at 80-90% hp, had some bandages, but very pretty much fine. Yes, Lucci faced G5, but that was a day earlier, and he got up with just a bandaid in no time. Considering he's an awakened zoan and that injury was low to begin with, a day is enough to heal up the damages.
Zoro didn't use KoH, there was no smoke in the attack that landed on Lucci.
Unless you are talking about that one panel of smoke, which we can't tell with certainty that it's KoH. Because we see smoke in both advanced armament overflow, as well as KoH.
KoH is usually accompanied by tons of long lightning trails, since it is overuse of advanced armament + advanced conqueror's.
And here we obviously have to check author intent as well.
Zoro vs Lucci had also more of Zoro in nitoryuu mode.
So, is Lucci ~ green smoke santoryuu Zoro ~ base nittoryuu Zoro? No! This is simple stall piece, where Oda have characters clash around for a while, for plot to move forward. There was little thought put behind this fight other than the intent that Lucci was strong enough to stall/keep-up with a non serious Zoro.
I did interpret it as KoH mode when we saw the smoke around Zoro's swords. However, you do make a good point that it could just be regular armament since he had that same thing happen during his fight with Pica. Weird Oda puts smoke rings around the swords ever to be honest, not like people get smoke rings on their arms when using haki . I also could have sworn I saw Zoro with bandana on at some point in this fight (will have to recheck)?
If I reinterpret that as Zoro just using regular CoA haki, then that automatically would bring this fight down to Mid-Diff win for Zoro. Do agree that the time it took is exclusively plot stalling. I also don't think Zoro sustained a single injury in the fight, just seems to be fatigue from just fighting.
In no way is Lucci vs Zoro even remotely comparable to Zoro vs Kaku. No offense, but this is an objectively ridiculous comparison.
Zoro vs Kaku:
- Kaku injured him a lot, landed hits on him.
- tanked named attacks from Zoro
- Zoro used bandana
- Zoro used his strongest technique till date: Asura
Zoro vs Lucci:
- stall piece with clashes
- no bandana
- zero injuries
- fight ended with a single named attack, a mid-end attack without KoH
Pica, like Lucci, was also a low-mid diff fight as well, not anywhere near a high diff.
Zoro walked over him. Zero injuries. I suppose Lucci pushed him a bit more, because Pica was just running and it just came down to isolating him from the ground. But then again, Zoro used his 2nd or 3rd strongest technique against Pica's mountain, which ups the effort.
Since I weight effort put by the fighter more than the injuries sustained that's where I got to them both being high diff. If Zoro didn't use KoH mode in the fight than it is mid diff for me. As for the injuries I think they also are strange in that sometimes they do seem to impact the person but other times they don't, hence why I weight them less. Either way I always did consider the fight against Kaku to be a higher high-dff fight than his fight with Lucci. The hardest fight Zoro has had in Egghead to me is the Seraphim. Lucci going down to a single named attack definitely does factor (guess I'd assumed there were other named attacks used but you're right we didn't see any during any of the panels from either of them).
Anyway, if these are your criteria for a high diff battle.
Let me ask you this. Was Kaido vs 1010 Luffy a high-extreme diff battle? Because based on your criteria, Luffy landed hits on him and injured him, they clashed and fought for a while, Kaido used his hybrid mode.
If you answer yes, at least you will be consistent with your takes, and we can just agree to disagree here. Cause from my perspective, Kaido vs 1010 Luffy was just a lower-end mid diff. Kaido didn't use drunken modes or FS and took him out by exerting decent amount of power.
This one is interesting but I think of it as Low Diff (bordering on Mid) win for Kaido. The effort Kaido put was not significant enough for met - no drunk mode, not forced to use aCoO as you pointed out, and most importantly to me he didn't use his strongest attacks e.g. the higher variations of thunder bagua let alone his blazing lava thing. If Kaido had been forced to fight harder than I would have upped this more.
I also don't personally think Kaido was injured much in that fight. I think he takes lots of hits so frequently without being phased that him feeling an attack gets mistaken for getting injured. I don't think Luffy was causing any real injuries until he used G4+ aCoC attacks. Not being able to fully judge how much those attacks actually hurt Kaido is why I have this bordering on Mid diff but in the end felt Kaido took those hits similar to Luffy taking non haki hits (looks like he is hurt but is he really?).
Also, what diff was G5 Luffy vs Lucci?
Lasted had a clash with significant amount of haki used, fought for some time, tanked named attacks and only knocked down briefly, up with little injuries.
Somehow it seems like users are unanimous here that it was a low diff or maybe even lower than low-diff somehow.
That was Low Diff if I've ever seen it. G5 Luffy just played around with Lucci. The only commendable thing here is that Lucci didn't go down after the first two hits. He caused 0 damage to Luffy and was barely managing on just keeping up with the pace. Honestly I think if Luffy was serious it would have been neg diff. His more serious G5 attacks pack serious damage, just look at Kizaru.
People apply heavy double standards here when it comes to judging Zoro.
I am not saying you are necessarily doing it intentionally (if I thought you were being intentionally disingenuousm I wouldn't even bother with long essays lol), but many others do for agendas.
Unfortunately this is very common with the monster trio. They are either super loved or super hated. I think in the case of this fight the big thing for me is the KoH mode but without that it definitely is in the Mid/Low range, depending on if any other named attacks were used and if he had actually sustained damage (since most of it was off panel). If we leave Egghead without any flashbacks or comments that he was hurt in that fight then I'd be closer to Low Diff.
Interesting read there.
I tend to agree. It's a mix of retcon + narrative weight.
Where do you rate Enel, with support of the narrative and context?
Oda said he would have 500 million if he was a pirate back in the days, and it was pre bounty inflation where top commanders like Ace had similar bounty as well.
IMO dude has admiral level attack power (has one of the most impressive attack power feats till date), mobility likely only 2nd to kizaru, and top tier observation haki; but his armament is non existent. Probably weaker than all 1st commanders (can make a case to be in that tier too), but stronger than every other commanders IMO.
If Enel ever returns to the story he will get heavy retcon to make him YC1+ to Admiral level (if Oda is feeling generous). The man had insane DF power and his haki was the best of COO we saw for a super long time. I think he didn't use CoA purely due to Oda not really leveraging at the time. Otherwise its strange that a society that has knowledge of haki where it seems some priests were using it wouldn't have their strongest use it. Enel would be back in the story at a similar level to Crocodile and Hancock.
Lucci must be given credit. He faced off with G5 Luffy & got owned, but his recovery was quick.
**Not super relevant but Lucci just like Luffy, Zoro & Kaku got injured apprehending the Seraphim.
**Lucci did face off against KOH Zoro & survived…..However, The main point is ODA off screened the fight. Zoro pops back up not using KOH or 3 swords….Then he finishes the fight with what we are left to assume is an AdCoC attack, to which Lucci is barely standing.
So yes we must respect Lucci, Overall the fight is contrived and the way it ended, shows it’s contrived.
That being said Zoro stocks are down a bit & Lucci’s are up a bit more….
This leads me to my next point. Zoro has KOH but it’s not mastered or reliable enough to put him on the Admiral lv. Luffy has eaten Food when he got to egg head & after every battle before & after he’s used G5. G5 has stamina problem and Luffy needs to overcome it, & G5 definitely messes with his personality which causes him not to fight seriously or to gag around.
@grey matter went and checked Zoro's fight with Pica and in the manga there is actually no smoke around his swords in chapter 778 when he used haki. It appears the smoke around his sword in that fight is an anime only effect.
With that in mind it definitely seems in the manga, Zoro did use KoH against Lucci since the only times he has smoke around his swords in the manga is when using aCoC. Unless you see a distinction between Zoro using aCoC vs Zoro being in KoH mode the fight is at the very least a Mid Diff for me now. If it is KoH mode it is a low High Diff bordering on high Mid Diff, but if Oda goes down route of Zoro using aCoC without KoH mode then it is solidly a high Mid Diff.
Even if he didn't sustain any major injuries the portrayal Oda shows is that Zoro did have put in a decent amount of effort. And at the very least we do see that Lucci was able to directly fight against aCoC swords using nothing but haki embued hands. The way I see it I think if either of them had landed a named attack on the other, the fight would be over e.g. had madara attack landed Zoro would've been the one to lose.
well, not that i defend, zoro but, if i were to make a conclusion about zoro's performance, i would rather check if there are something behind it, and i am referring to one of the most, mysterious, panels from the wano arcs (meeting with death itself, whether hallicinating or not, i think the message is clear). not going on what could have possible happened there, but i think (just like aginst kuma in thriller bark) zoro has shown some great mindset there
@grey matter went and checked Zoro's fight with Pica and in the manga there is actually no smoke around his swords in chapter 778 when he used haki. It appears the smoke around his sword in that fight is an anime only effect.
With that in mind it definitely seems in the manga, Zoro did use KoH against Lucci since the only times he has smoke around his swords in the manga is when using aCoC. Unless you see a distinction between Zoro using aCoC vs Zoro being in KoH mode the fight is at the very least a Mid Diff for me now. If it is KoH mode it is a low High Diff bordering on high Mid Diff, but if Oda goes down route of Zoro using aCoC without KoH mode then it is solidly a high Mid Diff.
Even if he didn't sustain any major injuries the portrayal Oda shows is that Zoro did have put in a decent amount of effort. And at the very least we do see that Lucci was able to directly fight against aCoC swords using nothing but haki embued hands. The way I see it I think if either of them had landed a named attack on the other, the fight would be over e.g. had madara attack landed Zoro would've been the one to lose.
I think Lucci proved his CoA on his hands in particular is pretty powerful since he was going bare handed against Zoro aCoC+CoA swords in prior chapters. I don't think Zoro using CoA on his body would have been strong enough to block the Madara attack hence why he dodged. I doubt he would have died from the attack but he'd likely lose the fight right there and then had he taken the hit.
Of course the converse of this is true too. Lucci couldn't use CoA haki on his body to block Zoro's swords in a named attack either which is why he got severely injured and lost the fight. To me both of them fight with attacks that are typically fatal when they fully land.
Zoro isn’t stronger than Oden. So no he hasn’t mastered Enma. Nor is he a master of AdCoC in general.
Zorotards take Zoro’s hype way too far. The conundrum is that Zoro is a very hyped character in story so yes fans give him higher projection/purpose than normal.
The Whole High Diff/ Extreme Diff argument falls super flat when Zoro casually dodges Lucci & leaves him critically wounded; & He didn’t even use KOH.
Yes Lucci gave Zoro some trouble. Zoro vs any YC1 is going to give him some trouble. He’s stronger than all of them EXCEPT Ben Beckman. So yes he’ll finish them off w/o high diff with his AdCoC.
Lucci vs YC1…Marco Wins; King Wins; Katakuri Wins; Sanji Wins…
Welp, if we go by how lucci performed against G5 luffy you'd think he'd beat marco... G5 luffy should have an easy time against most YC1 with marco lasting a bit.
With zoro it's not an issue of him having a mid or high difficulty against lucci. Zoro is someone that can fight at straight up yonko level for a short amount of time. If he maxes out his haki output he can deal blows like the ones that hurt kaido... These would do to lucci what we just saw. Who can still stand but realistically speaking the fight is over. If zoro doesn't uses his more comfortable output he fights at more or less the YC1 level as we saw against king.
Welp, if we go by how lucci performed against G5 luffy you'd think he'd beat marco... G5 luffy should have an easy time against most YC1 with marco lasting a bit.
With zoro it's not an issue of him having a mid or high difficulty against lucci. Zoro is someone that can fight at straight up yonko level for a short amount of time. If he maxes out his haki output he can deal blows like the ones that hurt kaido... These would do to lucci what we just saw. Who can still stand but realistically speaking the fight is over. If zoro doesn't uses his more comfortable output he fights at more or less the YC1 level as we saw against king.
It's important because for the sake of plot zoro's strength has two settings basically and his performance depends on that. And this explains the inane bs we have seen between him and lucci. In his first strength setting he is relatively even, in the second he can end lucci in a flash.
I’ll be honest what I really don’t like about the fandom is that a lot of us act like ODA is flawless. I’m loving EggHead it’s turning out to be my fav PTS Arc so far.
But there are still some Stuff in there, that makes me side eye ODA like really bro…?!
1) Lucci clashing with G5. Doesn’t matter how Silly Nika is. That clash was unwarranted Fanservice. Even Luffy pulling out G5 for Lucci is excessive. He didn’t even do so for Kizaru…..Contrived sh^t.
2) Seriously we all know Zoro couldn’t turn a corner to find the SHP. But since when is Zoro just *%#%* Inept in realizing the exact same physical description of King & the Seraphim!! Like wtf the Gag when I read is out of character….Contrived Shit
3) Seraphim were defeated with Bubble Gun…Contrived shit not revealing their likely weakness to AdCOC.
4) Zoro vs Lucci. Offscreen fight. Again Out of character banter, & attitude about the fight. Until Sanji badmouths him, he casually ends the fight. Contrived Shit
5) Why the hell isn’t AdCoC the new offensive power that only a chosen few know how to use. Not being used! Against an Admiral!….Contrived
All that to say, I’m still enjoying egghead in its totality. But learn to peep when ODA isn’t seamlessly weaving things together.
It's important because for the sake of plot zoro's strength has two settings basically and his performance depends on that. And this explains the inane bs we have seen between him and lucci. In his first strength setting he is relatively even, in the second he can end lucci in a flash.
I have gone back and checked on Enel's performance in Skypeia arc and really hope he returns to the story. I now think he was the first awakened logia we were introduced to when he took on his Amaru form since he:
Has a full transformation which is not something we have seen a single logia due
Takes on a form that is composed fully of his element
Has a ribbon around him similar to the smoke cloud that zoan's gain when awakened
Would be interesting to see how powerful he is now, especially with a retcon. For the time he was in the story he had peak ability in every skill aside from his base body's durability. He could be the Frieza of this story where he actually trained in the last 2 years after realizing there are more powerful people in the world.
I think these are good definitions and do agree with most of it. Where I think you put more weight than I do is the injuries received, whereas I put more weight on the level of effort exerted by the fighter I'm evaluating. For example you have Zoro v Kaku as high diff where Zoro clearly put effort and did get injured, but how injured was he really e.g. he went on to continue fighting relatively okay afterwards? Compare that to Zoro v Killer, where Zoro didn't put as much offensive effort (heck he only had 2 swords) but sustained a far more critical injury resulting in him passing out right after - would you consider that extreme diff?
Haha I included the Mihawk one since Zoro put in hella effort but yeah was neg diff.
Honestly this is making me realize how much of an art power scaling is in this manga.
Don't you think both matters though?
I put weight in both injury and effort.
You can put high effort and stomp, that wouldn't make the fight a high diff, would it?
What makes Kaku a high diff fight is that Kaku fought Zoro equally until Zoro pulled out Asura, and reduced Zoro to like 30% hp. I mean as a true equal, unlike Lucci where Zoro was sandbagging for most of the fight.
Zoro didn't treat Kaku like a joke in the end, where he casually dodged his final attack and one shotted him with a mid-end move. Zoro couldn't deal with Kaku's strongest attack at all, until he pulled out Asura. Asura was needed to overpower it.
As for Killer.
Yes, he was injured, but that was a result of external intervention. What would have been a mid diff fight if pure 1v1, turned into a high-extreme diff fight due to intervention from the Fox.
I did interpret it as KoH mode when we saw the smoke around Zoro's swords. However, you do make a good point that it could just be regular armament since he had that same thing happen during his fight with Pica. Weird Oda puts smoke rings around the swords ever to be honest, not like people get smoke rings on their arms when using haki . I also could have sworn I saw Zoro with bandana on at some point in this fight (will have to recheck)?
If I reinterpret that as Zoro just using regular CoA haki, then that automatically would bring this fight down to Mid-Diff win for Zoro. Do agree that the time it took is exclusively plot stalling. I also don't think Zoro sustained a single injury in the fight, just seems to be fatigue from just fighting.
@grey matter went and checked Zoro's fight with Pica and in the manga there is actually no smoke around his swords in chapter 778 when he used haki. It appears the smoke around his sword in that fight is an anime only effect.
With that in mind it definitely seems in the manga, Zoro did use KoH against Lucci since the only times he has smoke around his swords in the manga is when using aCoC. Unless you see a distinction between Zoro using aCoC vs Zoro being in KoH mode the fight is at the very least a Mid Diff for me now. If it is KoH mode it is a low High Diff bordering on high Mid Diff, but if Oda goes down route of Zoro using aCoC without KoH mode then it is solidly a high Mid Diff.
Even if he didn't sustain any major injuries the portrayal Oda shows is that Zoro did have put in a decent amount of effort. And at the very least we do see that Lucci was able to directly fight against aCoC swords using nothing but haki embued hands. The way I see it I think if either of them had landed a named attack on the other, the fight would be over e.g. had madara attack landed Zoro would've been the one to lose.
I am not talking about Pica, moreso talking about stuff that happened in Wano itself.
Check when Zoro got Enma and cut the cliff, check when Zoro was using attacks against Kaido and as well as against King (pre KoH)
You could see the smoke there too.
Smoke can be advanced armament overflow, or KoH. Rooftop Zoro used advanced armament only and was having smoke anyway.
And lastly, my main point here is the author intent:
And here we obviously have to check author intent as well.
Zoro vs Lucci had also more of Zoro in nitoryuu mode.
So, is Lucci ~ green smoke santoryuu Zoro ~ base nittoryuu Zoro? No! This is simple stall piece, where Oda have characters clash around for a while, for plot to move forward. There was little thought put behind this fight other than the intent that Lucci was strong enough to stall/keep-up with a non serious Zoro.
Repeating myself:
is Lucci ~ smoke santoryuu Zoro ~ base nittoryuu Zoro?
How can this be the case, when the attack that took Lucci from almost full hp to like < 20% hp was a mid-end attack WITHOUT KoH ?
This means, Lucci cannot handle Zoro's attack power in base advanced conqueror's even.
How could he handle Zoro's attack power in KoH then, which it's OVERUSE of advanced conqueror's + advanced armament? Make it make sense.
Since I weight effort put by the fighter more than the injuries sustained that's where I got to them both being high diff. If Zoro didn't use KoH mode in the fight than it is mid diff for me. As for the injuries I think they also are strange in that sometimes they do seem to impact the person but other times they don't, hence why I weight them less. Either way I always did consider the fight against Kaku to be a higher high-dff fight than his fight with Lucci. The hardest fight Zoro has had in Egghead to me is the Seraphim. Lucci going down to a single named attack definitely does factor (guess I'd assumed there were other named attacks used but you're right we didn't see any during any of the panels from either of them).
Even if you are just weighing effort, Zoro put a LOT more effort into Kaku than to Lucci
Zoro went all out, used many named attacks (that Kaku tanked), and pulled out his strongest ability till date to finally put down Kaku.
Compare that to Lucci, who damn near got one shotted with the first instance of a mid-end named attack
Comparing effort:
- Zoro used 100% of his ability against Kaku. Kaku forced Zoro to evolve himself and awaken his Asura for the first time.
- Zoro used like 50% of his ability at max against Lucci, no bandana
Comparing injury:
- Kaku took like 70% hp from Zoro
- Lucci took 10% hp from Zoro at best, even that is giving Lucci benefit of the doubt cause we didn't see Lucci land any hit on Zoro.
I will disagree about Seraphim pushing Zoro more than Lucci though.
Lucci could actually hold his own in CQC. While, Seraphim are bums with poor combat skills and no haki. They are just damage sponges who probably got ping ponged by Luffy/Zoro/Lucci, who are likely alive only cause Oda made Zoro retarded and made him forget King (a skilled adult lunarian with strong armament haki) was afraid of getting hit by Zoro once he got advanced conqueror's haki.
This one is interesting but I think of it as Low Diff (bordering on Mid) win for Kaido. The effort Kaido put was not significant enough for met - no drunk mode, not forced to use aCoO as you pointed out, and most importantly to me he didn't use his strongest attacks e.g. the higher variations of thunder bagua let alone his blazing lava thing. If Kaido had been forced to fight harder than I would have upped this more.
I also don't personally think Kaido was injured much in that fight. I think he takes lots of hits so frequently without being phased that him feeling an attack gets mistaken for getting injured. I don't think Luffy was causing any real injuries until he used G4+ aCoC attacks. Not being able to fully judge how much those attacks actually hurt Kaido is why I have this bordering on Mid diff but in the end felt Kaido took those hits similar to Luffy taking non haki hits (looks like he is hurt but is he really?).
That was Low Diff if I've ever seen it. G5 Luffy just played around with Lucci. The only commendable thing here is that Lucci didn't go down after the first two hits. He caused 0 damage to Luffy and was barely managing on just keeping up with the pace. Honestly I think if Luffy was serious it would have been neg diff. His more serious G5 attacks pack serious damage, just look at Kizaru.
But Luffy used his strongest mode that severely exhausted him, and had clashes with Lucci?
Wouldn't that push it to a minimum mid diff, due to the effort Luffy used?
Pulling out G5 automatically prevents it from being a neg diff, because at that point the only thing he's holding back is advanced conqueror's and gigantification in G5.
To put down Lucci, he would even need far more effort than he used there, because Lucci tanked 3 named attacks with only llike 20% reduction in hp. Up with just a bandaid, showing no signs of lasting damage or exhausting.
You say Lucci didn't damage Luffy, but Lucci caused zero damage to Zoro as well by the way.
This is the double standard I am talking about.
Look at how Zoro treated Lucci when he got serious. Casually dodged Lucci's barrage of named attacks, exposing beyond any doubt that Lucci holding his own earlier was just Zoro sandbagging for the sake of plot. Damn near one shotted Lucci with a mid-end move without KoH, without bandana.
Unfortunately this is very common with the monster trio. They are either super loved or super hated. I think in the case of this fight the big thing for me is the KoH mode but without that it definitely is in the Mid/Low range, depending on if any other named attacks were used and if he had actually sustained damage (since most of it was off panel). If we leave Egghead without any flashbacks or comments that he was hurt in that fight then I'd be closer to Low Diff.
Lucci must be given credit. He faced off with G5 Luffy & got owned, but his recovery was quick.
**Not super relevant but Lucci just like Luffy, Zoro & Kaku got injured apprehending the Seraphim.
**Lucci did face off against KOH Zoro & survived…..However, The main point is ODA off screened the fight. Zoro pops back up not using KOH or 3 swords….Then he finishes the fight with what we are left to assume is an AdCoC attack, to which Lucci is barely standing.
So yes we must respect Lucci, Overall the fight is contrived and the way it ended, shows it’s contrived.
That being said Zoro stocks are down a bit & Lucci’s are up a bit more….
This leads me to my next point. Zoro has KOH but it’s not mastered or reliable enough to put him on the Admiral lv. Luffy has eaten Food when he got to egg head & after every battle before & after he’s used G5. G5 has stamina problem and Luffy needs to overcome it, & G5 definitely messes with his personality which causes him not to fight seriously or to gag around.
I’ll be honest what I really don’t like about the fandom is that a lot of us act like ODA is flawless. I’m loving EggHead it’s turning out to be my fav PTS Arc so far.
But there are still some Stuff in there, that makes me side eye ODA like really bro…?!
1) Lucci clashing with G5. Doesn’t matter how Silly Nika is. That clash was unwarranted Fanservice. Even Luffy pulling out G5 for Lucci is excessive. He didn’t even do so for Kizaru…..Contrived sh^t.
2) Seriously we all know Zoro couldn’t turn a corner to find the SHP. But since when is Zoro just *%#%* Inept in realizing the exact same physical description of King & the Seraphim!! Like wtf the Gag when I read is out of character….Contrived Shit
3) Seraphim were defeated with Bubble Gun…Contrived shit not revealing their likely weakness to AdCOC.
4) Zoro vs Lucci. Offscreen fight. Again Out of character banter, & attitude about the fight. Until Sanji badmouths him, he casually ends the fight. Contrived Shit
5) Why the hell isn’t AdCoC the new offensive power that only a chosen few know how to use. Not being used! Against an Admiral!….Contrived
All that to say, I’m still enjoying egghead in its totality. But learn to peep when ODA isn’t seamlessly weaving things together.
These posts does say a lot. Contrived shenanigans.........is the best way to describe Oda' egghead writing.
The issue is that Oda is having characters sandbagging for the sake of stalling for plot.
A lot of the nonsense that has happened in this arc can be explained by just two words - "stall piece"
Another MAJOR issue is the visual ambiguity when characters are using haki.
- basic armament, advanced armament and advanced conqueror's all produce lightning. So now it's impossible to say with certainty what's being used here.
- smoke comes out when Zoro overuses advanced armament haki, as well as in KoH (which is overuse of advanced armament and advanced conqueror's). Which makes it impossible to say with certainty what is being used here.
At this point, we have to use context to deduce what's being used here:
- G5 Luffy likely didn't used advanced conqueror's on Lucci, because that is drunken hybrid Kaido level power. It makes sense from context that G5 Luffy used advanced armament, cause Lucci himself uses it and Luffy likely used his own to counter that from Lucci.
- Zoro likely didn't use KoH, because we saw more of Lucci vs base nitoryuu Zoro. Plus, a mid-end advanced conqueror's attack without KoH critically wounded Lucci, meaning KoH is far beyond his paygrade to fight equally. It also makes sense from context that Zoro was likely using advanced armament haki the entire fight, since Lucci also uses it and Zoro likely used his own to counter that.
My opinion on Lucci's power level:
Lucci has top tier armament haki, strong CQC and mobility. He belongs in the same broad tier/spectrum as King, Marco, Katakuri, rooftop Zoro and current Sanji. Weaker than King/Marco for sure. Likely weaker than rooftop Zoro/current Sanji. While maybe stronger than Katakuri.
My opinion on Zoro's power level:
We are at least ready to have a conversation about Zoro vs new admirals and old legends, maybe weaker but probably can give them a run for their money. Should be weaker than OG admirals for sure, and definitely Yonkos and Oden, until he masters KoH.
I have gone back and checked on Enel's performance in Skypeia arc and really hope he returns to the story. I now think he was the first awakened logia we were introduced to when he took on his Amaru form since he:
Has a full transformation which is not something we have seen a single logia due
Takes on a form that is composed fully of his element
Has a ribbon around him similar to the smoke cloud that zoan's gain when awakened
Would be interesting to see how powerful he is now, especially with a retcon. For the time he was in the story he had peak ability in every skill aside from his base body's durability. He could be the Frieza of this story where he actually trained in the last 2 years after realizing there are more powerful people in the world.
The "ribbon" was a nice catch, never noticed it.
Dude seems like he was like just 1 step away from awakening, if not awakened already.
His DF mastery was INSANE.
He's definitely the Frieza of the verse. One of the best observation haki in the verse till date, natural genius creating space ships, mastered DF to an insane degree. All the while there was ZERO challenges to push him to grow stronger.
Oda can retcon him to admiral level and I wouldn't complain lol.
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. I also could have sworn I saw Zoro with bandana on at some point in this fight (will have to recheck)?
