I don't think Haki literally hardens the body of the user. If that was the case, the user wouldn't be able to move. The manga has shown a few times that Haki can extend beyond a person's body, implying it's more like a force field.
Well, yeah, his fist is a fist. But it is also smoke. I don't see how that contradicts what I am saying. It is the same thing as when akainu uses a gigantic lava fist. Logia users don't stop being their element just because they look solid, that is not how it works. Logia users are their element at all times. Even when they do not look like that. And with that in mind, just because something looks like an element does not mean it is not a logia's body. Take the time smoker fought vergo. Vergo made the point that when smoker used his ability he was giving vergo more places to hit him. Or the time ceasar was gas and luffy used haki to grab him. Luffy grabbed what seemed to be gas but it was ceasar's torso or something.
I did not suggest haki was what gave fruit users to shape their abilities. Of course they can do that. You completely missed my point My point specifically requires that logia are able to do that if anything. Which is why akainu has hill sized lava fists for instance. It is a liquid but it is also a thing he can control and do as he pleases. More so, that fist is certainly an part of his actual body. Which is why there is no reason he can't imbue it with haki as any other part of his body.
You say I am not using evidence but you are not even the definitions given in the manga... Armament haki being like an armor is a fact at this point. It is the literal description it has been given.
You're saying they don't, yet Smoker fist was no longer smoke when he had Armament Haki on.
And just because it's called Armour doesn't stop it being hard, you can't provide 1 panel or example, where Armament Haki hasn't been shown to be hard.
It also does contradict what you're saying, you tried to make a point that the ability to retain form means they're solid, it clearly doesn't if Luffy's fist simply went through his face/body reacting like Smoke, a gaseous compound should.
To make a claim with conviction, you need evidence, and you're still yet to provide any.
Boa Hancock is clearly a Haki user, if her sisters can use it, she herself surely can. Thankfully, we've seen her kick Smoker which proves beyond a doubt that she's an Armament Haki user too. With that said, why didn't her Mero mero beam affect Luffy if Armament Haki can be infused into any ability?
I don't think Haki literally hardens the body of the user. If that was the case, the user wouldn't be able to move. The manga has shown a few times that Haki can extend beyond a person's body, implying it's more like a force field.
Actually, it does literally harden. There's no such thing as "metaphorically" hardening something, it's either hard or not hard.
If it didn't harden, why's the Elephant's leg aching? and why is it in tears? because when it hit Rayleigh's hands which were clade in Armament Haki, it was extremely hard.
Also, that effect is not a force field, it's actually just their hands doing the work, that's just the impact of the force we're seeing.
The very effect you're referring to as "force field" is seen here, it's not a force field, it's merely the impact of Luffy's foot against her Palms, just like the force of the impact made my the elephant against Rayleigh.
And to drive the point that Armament Haki is simply hardness, what happens when Luffy uses Gear 2nd? His attacks become faster and more powerful, that is fact surely. We also evidently see what a stronger attack does against Marigold's Haki which previously rebounded Luffy's attack... that didn't occur this time.
The very same attack that rebounded, actually didn't rebound, why? because it was stronger being that it was a G2 based attack. It also proves a strong attack can penetrate past Armament Haki because the only thing Luffy can do is increase his attack power, but not utilize Armament Haki. Armament Haki only makes things harder.
You're saying they don't, yet Smoker fist was no longer smoke when he had Armament Haki on.
And just because it's called Armour doesn't stop it being hard, you can't provide 1 panel or example, where Armament Haki hasn't been shown to be hard.
It also does contradict what you're saying, you tried to make a point that the ability to retain form means they're solid, it clearly doesn't if Luffy's fist simply went through his face/body reacting like Smoke, a gaseous compound should.
To make a claim with conviction, you need evidence, and you're still yet to provide any.
Boa Hancock is clearly a Haki user, if her sisters can use it, she herself surely can. Thankfully, we've seen her kick Smoker which proves beyond a doubt that she's an Armament Haki user too. With that said, why didn't her Mero mero beam affect Luffy if Armament Haki can be infused into any ability?
What are you even talking about? The way haki has been explained in the manga so far is more or less like this (for the basic invisible form of haki). Take the bamboo stick covered in regular haki. Using haki is the equivalent to taking that bamboo stick and placing it inside an steel pipe. Is it harder? Of course it is, it is a bamboo stick inside an steel pipe. However is the bamboo itself any different from what it was? Of course not, it is just a bamboo stick inside a steel pipe.
I don't need to provide evidence.. The issue here is purely conceptual, you are blatantly ignoring concepts as presented in the manga to make your own points. No evidence ca work here if you blatantly ignore the basic form of haki working like an armor.
What are you even talking about? The way haki has been explained in the manga so far is more or less like this (for the basic invisible form of haki). Take the bamboo stick covered in regular haki. Using haki is the equivalent to taking that bamboo stick and placing it inside an steel pipe. Is it harder? Of course it is, it is a bamboo stick inside an steel pipe. However is the bamboo itself any different from what it was? Of course not, it is just a bamboo stick inside a steel pipe.
I don't need to provide evidence.. The issue here is purely conceptual, you are blatantly ignoring concepts as presented in the manga to make your own points. No evidence ca work here if you blatantly ignore the basic form of haki working like an armor.
What basic form? Even the Invisible Armament is represented as Hard.
You do need to provide evidence, but can't, so you're making intuitive speculation, not educated or evidence based speculation.
Blatantly ignoring concepts when I provide actual evidence showing Armament Haki in both forms are simply hard?
And, no, it's not a Bamboo stick inside a steel pipe, it's a hardened Bamboo stick. Your conceptualization of Haki is a far cry from how it's been represented, I can assure you.
Luffy's body isn't his body inside a steel armour coating, it's blended, or else, his body wouldn't push in-wards, it'd be rigid and stiff. So, the Armament Haki, blends with the the solid thing is clade over.
As you would describe it, a face inside a steel helmet? Nope. We see his face contort, it mean his Skin has blended with the Armament coating.
Armament Haki would blend with the bamboo stick, and make it harder.
Logias are not solid, therefore, they can't blend with Armament Haki. Nor is there such a thing as "Hard" fire, or "Hard" magma, it's a viscous substance.
What basic form? Even the Invisible Armament is represented as Hard.
You do need to provide evidence, but can't, so you're making intuitive speculation, not educated or evidence based speculation.
Blatantly ignoring concepts when I provide actual evidence showing Armament Haki in both forms are simply hard?
And, no, it's not a Bamboo stick inside a steel pipe, it's a hardened Bamboo stick. Your conceptualization of Haki is a far cry from how it's been represented, I can assure you.
Luffy's body isn't his body inside a steel armour coating, it's blended, or else, his body wouldn't push in-wards, it'd be rigid and stiff. So, the Armament Haki, blends with the the solid thing is clade over.
As you would describe it, a face inside a steel helmet? Nope. We see his face contort, it mean his Skin has blended with the Armament coating.
Armament Haki would blend with the bamboo stick, and make it harder.
Logias are not solid, therefore, they can't blend with Armament Haki. Nor is there such a thing as "Hard" fire, or "Hard" magma, it's a viscous substance.
What I am saying it literally the definition of haki in the exact way it has been explained to us. And the literal definition given by Rayleigh has never been discredited by anything we have seen.
You are speaking of haki as if it was supposed to be an impenetrable force field or something. The invisible form of haki is merely an extra layer of protection, enough force can cause damage. But do go on pretending invisible haki works differently from what Rayleigh explicitly said. I do agree in that hardening does result in well, hardening, but that is because it is literally in the name. Heck, the fact that there is a need for the black form of haki to even have a different name suggests that it is different from the invisible form.
Next, we have "Armament Haki". This shade...
Luffy: Aahh...!
Rayleigh: ...is something like wearing an invisible suit of armour...
What I am saying it literally the definition of haki in the exact way it has been explained to us. And the literal definition given by Rayleigh has never been discredited by anything we have seen.
You are speaking of haki as if it was supposed to be an impenetrable force field or something. The invisible form of haki is merely an extra layer of protection, enough force can cause damage. But do go on pretending invisible haki works differently from what Rayleigh explicitly said. I do agree in that hardening does result in well, hardening, but that is because it is literally in the name. Heck, the fact that there is a need for the black form of haki to even have a different name suggests that it is different from the invisible form.
Of course it is terrifying weapon. Anything covered in haki becomes a better weapon. That does not mean Rayleigh's explanation is wrong. It is 100% consistent.
My words were "You are speaking of haki as if it was supposed to be an impenetrable force field or something.". That does not mean I literally said that you said haki works as a force field... You made the point that because doflamingo's face contorted from the kick then haki does not work in the way which Rayleigh says. Which makes absolutely no sense. It is not an impenetrable force field, it is an extra layer of defense. Doflamingo's face contorting to due to the kick in no form or context means haki does not work as Rayleigh says. A defense can yield after all.
It is most definitely not interchangeable used. We have never seen the invisible form of haki being referred to as "hardening". It has been said things imbued with haki are harder but it is straight up wrong to suggest that the effect of normal haki coating and hardening is exactly the same.
Well, imbuing your body with haki does add an extra layer of defense which is pretty sturdy. Of course hardness is a thing but not in the same context as with hardening. At least as the manga has said.
Of course it is terrifying weapon. Anything covered in haki becomes a better weapon. That does not mean Rayleigh's explanation is wrong. It is 100% consistent.
My words were "You are speaking of haki as if it was supposed to be an impenetrable force field or something.". That does not mean I literally said that you said haki works as a force field... You made the point that because doflamingo's face contorted from the kick then haki does not work in the way which Rayleigh says. Which makes absolutely no sense. It is not an impenetrable force field, it is an extra layer of defense. Doflamingo's face contorting to due to the kick in no form or context means haki does not work as Rayleigh says. A defense can yield after all.
It is most definitely not interchangeable used. We have never seen the invisible form of haki being referred to as "hardening". It has been said things imbued with haki are harder but it is straight up wrong to suggest that the effect of normal haki coating and hardening is exactly the same.
Well, imbuing your body with haki does add an extra layer of defense which is pretty sturdy. Of course hardness is a thing but not in the same context as with hardening. At least as the manga has said.
Armour is simply referring to Hardness, doesn't contradict anything Rayleigh has said, pretty sure you misconstrued what I said, or mistook what someone else said and assumed it was me.
Even Rayleigh show it is to do with Hardness, you're yet to show evidence of even the Invisible Haki not being hard.
Even the Elephant's feet is aching, because Rayleigh palms became hard on impact. Luffy finds a "nose flick" painful, because Haki makes things harder.
It seems you're reluctant or in denial, to accept this fact. Where is a form of Invisible Haki ever not been made out to be Hard when it's clearly the case here?
This is a VIZ translation. Does it say Haki is AN invisible suit of armour? No, he said, "It is LIKE an invisible suit of armour", keyword being "LIKE" meaning it's a Simile.
A simile isn't literal; If Rayleigh said Luffy is like a Lion, does that mean Luffy is a Lion? No.
More so, looking at Joker's face, he's using Armament Haki which is like a suit of armour, clearly referring to it's ability to provide protection due to it's ability to augment whatever it's clade over.
Even look at Joker's face, only HALF of his face is covered in Haki, if it were literally ARMOUR, his whole face should be covered, what sort of helmet only covers half a face? you're taking a simile to literally, similes aren't literal.
More importantly, even if Joker didn't cover half his face in Haki, his face would still contort on contact. Therefore, for his face to contort while Armament Haki is activated over a patch, it clearly indicates that Armament Haki assimilates with whatever it's clade on.
If it were just a protective layer, then his face shouldn't be able to squeeze and contort, it should remain steely and rigid. If it were literal armour, it should mean Joker's "Armour" just broke, and it should be rendered useless, however, it's clearly not the case.
If it didn't harden, why's the Elephant's leg aching? and why is it in tears? because when it hit Rayleigh's hands which were clade in Armament Haki, it was extremely hard.
How did the Admirals prevented the platform from being affected by Whitebeard's Devil Fruit ability? How can Shanks block Akainu's melted rock with his sword?
The very same attack that rebounded, actually didn't rebound, why? because it was stronger being that it was a G2 based attack. It also proves a strong attack can penetrate past Armament Haki because the only thing Luffy can do is increase his attack power, but not utilize Armament Haki. Armament Haki only makes things harder.
How did the Admirals prevented the platform from being affected by Whitebeard's Devil Fruit ability? How can Shanks block Akainu's melted rock with his sword?
With their palms clade in Haki, they mitigated the force, not aura. That's why all 3 of them are standing in a row to stop the attack from breaching past.
It's not a force field, it's contact with the palm.
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Whenever a weak attack hits a Haki protected object, it rebounds.
We see this when Luffy attacks Marigold without Gears.
We see this when Luffy attacks Sentomaru.
We see this rebound effect when the Elephant attacks Rayleigh's palm.
I'll go in depth, and try to point something out that seems easily missed.
Do you realise that when Rayleigh was explaining Haki in general, he simply used Haki against an opponent vastly weaker than himself in order to really show how exactly it worked? So, the results as seen in Rayleigh's demonstration was exaggerated.
When Luffy fought the Gorgon sisters, Sandersonia initially was dodging every one of Luffy's moves.
As soon as Luffy moved on to Gear 2nd, his moves were still being read, but she couldn't dodge them because they were too fast. Does that mean It's valid to disregard it as Observation Haki doesn't predict attacks? No.
Rayleigh used Observation Haki against the Elepahant and dodged every move with ease; against Kizaru, it's a totally contrasting situation because he's clearly having a difficult time, you wouldn't be able to tell he was using Observation haki at all.
As opposed to...
Against the Elephant, Rayleigh's Armament Haki deflected the Elephant's attack just like the Luffy's attacks against the Gorgon sisters.
In contrast, when Armament Haki is used against stronger enemies, this rebound effect is non-existent, why? Clearly, it's because the Elephant is simply very weak physically in comparison to Rayleigh, and Luffy's attacks are much more powerful against the Gorgon sisters despite Armament Haki.
It's very clear that Rayleigh's demonstration was exaggerated due to being against significantly weak opponents.
So:
When CoC knocks an Elephant out and doesn't do so in other scenarios, it's merely showing the degrees at which it has its effects.
When Armament haki deflects an attack, it's simply against a vastly inferior opponent.
When Observation haki allows one to dodge easily, it's simply against a vastly slower opponent.
There's no such thing as a new application of Haki, it all does the same thing.
Fromt my point of view you guys are debating semantics; Because I've read both of ya'll post & can't find where ya differ lol...
Akinu can use Haki...It's stated that VC & higher know Haki...Now there are 2 forms of Haki Armanent; The basic version & the advance version....At 1st I thought Oda simply retcon Haki to being shown as their skin or weapon becoming black; But no there is basic Armanent Haki & then there is advance hardening Armanent Haki.
Basic Armanet Haki allows you harm those with special DF powers...logia's & paramecia with superhuman weird durability ex.Luffy, Mr.1......
Then we have the advance form of Haki the much more popular form which is hardening your body. This gives you the same basic effect plus it strengthens/hardens your body or object you are holding..making you more durable & higher offensive.
Now as for logia's using Haki in conjunction with their logia powers is not possible...Not the same way Luffy uses Haki in gear 4....They can punch & kick with Haki like anyone else but that punch or kick isn't going to carry the effect of their logia...meaning Kuzen can't freeze, Akinu can't burn & enel can't electrify you with a Haki punch...it doesn't work that way
Fromt my point of view you guys are debating semantics; Because I've read both of ya'll post & can't find where ya differ lol...
Akinu can use Haki...It's stated that VC & higher know Haki...Now there are 2 forms of Haki Armanent; The basic version & the advance version....At 1st I thought Oda simply retcon Haki to being shown as their skin or weapon becoming black; But no there is basic Armanent Haki & then there is advance hardening Armanent Haki.
Basic Armanet Haki allows you harm those with special DF powers...logia's & paramecia with superhuman weird durability ex.Luffy, Mr.1......
Then we have the advance form of Haki the much more popular form which is hardening your body. This gives you the same basic effect plus it strengthens/hardens your body or object you are holding..making you more durable & higher offensive.
Now as for logia's using Haki in conjunction with their logia powers is not possible...Not the same way Luffy uses Haki in gear 4....They can punch & kick with Haki like anyone else but that punch or kick isn't going to carry the effect of their logia...meaning Kuzen can't freeze, Akinu can't burn & enel can't electrify you with a Haki punch...it doesn't work that way
It's clear all top-tier character can use Armament Haki. The ability to be able to use Haki, is not the same as being limited from using Haki. Example, Fujitora can use Observation Haki, but can his DF be amplified or work in tandem with Observation Haki like is the case for Enel? No. The same is with Armament, it works to harden solids, and not liquids/gasses.
It's also clear whether basic or advance, they're the same, albeit, one being stronger than the other; the hardness of Haki is no different to, the difference in hardness between Iron and Steel (or Titanium).
In fact, the attributing or referring to one as "basic" and "advanced" may suggest one is completely different, but it's really just bad naming or a misnomer, they're really just the same, it's a relationship of superiority so to speak.
Finally, the insinuating that a Logia which is something that lacks tangibility can employ Haki, it's a paradox, how can fire be hard? or air? or smoke? I'm saying otherwise.
It's not so much semantics, but 2 completely different views; one can be referenced with explicit evidence from the Manga, the other is simply an assumption that's based on intuition and requires a point of view that suggests no illustrations or explanation that hints at us, the properties of Haki, has been delivered by the author, and I don't believe that. There's a copious amount of
For example, Rayleigh didn't tell us that Armament Haki has a weakness, and therefore could be depleted, but we're shown this during Luffy's battle with Joker, so we believe it. In order to believe that Haki has any other properties besides touching people with DF powers and Hardness, there needs to be evidence suggesting so even if not explicit, and that is non-existent in every example pertaining to Armament Haki in the Manga.
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Latest chapter confirms even the invisible Armament Haki is hard. Luffy is punching a shield that isn't black, and claims it's the hardest his felt.
