American Politics

[Sanity Check]

No matter what "some" say, the fact still remains the Civil War was started by the South because they wanted to keep slavery and were scared that Lincoln would free slaves. Talking about other wars isn't going to change that fact, unfortunately. It was beyond stupid because Lincoln was never going to abolish slavery otherwise, and the North was just as racist, but at least thanks to their stupidity Black people are a bit more free.

Wish it was 100% free though.

In thousands of years of history.

There has not once been a war fought by non slaves to liberate slaves.

Except for the US Civl War apparently -- according to the "woke" crowd.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2021 ---

First of all, if you have to resort to whataboutism to make your argument seem stronger

I used to work in a grocery store in a poor area of town, with plenty of bums roaming around.

Felt sorry for those people. Every once in awhile I'll try to come up with an idea to end poverty/slavery.

I care -- so I try to be informed.

Are you suggesting we fly over to southeast asian countries and start burning down factories and overthrowing their government? Do you not see how that differs from simply fighting your own fellow Americans? You're trying to point to some sort of hypocrisy that isn't there.

The "woke" left is more angry about slavery 200 years ago.

Than they are about slavery right now.

Its kind of sketchy.

America tried to invade afghanistan after invading iraq twice. We invade people all the time.

Ending slavery would be more like attempts made to impose a 15% minimum global tax btw.

Lefties do, sure. It's why we vote for policies that try to tear down the systems that keep these crimes happening. But there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. No one's going to starve to death or go without clothing just to stand up for their values. I can't help anyone if I die from exposure during the winter.

The "woke" left usually supports trendy news headlines.

Whatever is trendy (and bad for everyone) is normally what they support.

 

[xi0]

No matter what "some" say, the fact still remains the Civil War was started by the South because they wanted to keep slavery and were scared that Lincoln would free slaves. Talking about other wars isn't going to change that fact, unfortunately. It was beyond stupid because Lincoln was never going to abolish slavery otherwise, and the North was just as racist, but at least thanks to their stupidity Black people are a bit more free.

Wish it was 100% free though.

This just isn't true. It was easier for people in the North to part with slavery because it was less essential for industry there. Much more industrialized centers and factories due to the fall line, while the south was mostly agricultural and needed the manpower. Slavery was already falling out of favor in many places in the world, it's not like Lincoln was talking about anything revolutionary. He ran on the premise of ending slavery, especially because of it's expansion into Western states after the war with Mexico. Of course the South would see that as existential threat and that's why they voted to secede.

Whenever people like to bring up how the war wasn't about slavery, it's worth reminding them that the Southern states literally tried to enshrine slavery in the Constitution in order to protect it from being made illegal in the South in the future. The war happened because that failed.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 14, 2021 ---

There has not once been a war fought by non slaves to liberate slaves.

Except for the US Civl War apparently -- according to the "woke" crowd.

Freed slaves literally fought for the North

Maybe try to familiarize yourself with the history you're claiming the "woke crowd" is trying to erase.

 

[Sanity Check]

Freed slaves literally fought for the North

Maybe try to familiarize yourself with the history you're claiming the "woke crowd" is trying to erase.

1828 tariffs forced the south to pay 75% of all taxes collected in the country.

If you declared war, would it likely be over unfair 75% taxation or a deep desire to liberate slaves.

 

[xi0]

1828 tariffs forced the south to pay 75% of all taxes collected in the country.

If you declared war, would it likely be over unfair 75% taxation or a deep desire to liberate slaves.

The tariffs were adjusted every few years for the sake of appeasement/compromise, so that number doesn't really hold up in context of what led up to the war.

What does the desire matter really? Lincoln could have done the entire thing for purely practical economic reasons and it would still be the correct thing. The South had zero ethical standing. Expecting the North to tolerate the South importing things from England for cheaper prices while getting fat off of cash crops they don't have to pay a labor force to harvest? Fuck them lol

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 14, 2021 ---

I don't know what exception you're taking with this. Yes, there was an economic component to the war... but what point does that prove? Slavery was a completely unsustainable practice.

 

[kkck]

I don't know what exception you're taking with this. Yes, there was an economic component to the war... but what point does that prove? Slavery was a completely unsustainable practice.

but dude, like, state rights.

 

[xi0]

but dude, like, state rights.

This, but unironically. States wanted their rights to OWN SLAVES protected.

I've noticed for a decade or so people trying to play revisionist history with the Civil War when it comes to slavery. Calling Lincoln a racist and ending slavery as some sort of cynical tyrant that just wanted to fuck with people. Research into the inner machinations and politics at the time gives us more information, it doesn't change why the fucking war happened.

 

[M3J]

The "woke" left usually supports trendy news headlines.

pls, learn what "woke" actually means, and learn something about the "left" other than what right wing bullshit tells you.

This just isn't true. It was easier for people in the North to part with slavery because it was less essential for industry there. Much more industrialized centers and factories due to the fall line, while the south was mostly agricultural and needed the manpower. Slavery was already falling out of favor in many places in the world, it's not like Lincoln was talking about anything revolutionary. He ran on the premise of ending slavery, especially because of it's expansion into Western states after the war with Mexico. Of course the South would see that as existential threat and that's why they voted to secede.

Whenever people like to bring up how the war wasn't about slavery, it's worth reminding them that the Southern states literally tried to enshrine slavery in the Constitution in order to protect it from being made illegal in the South in the future. The war happened because that failed.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 14, 2021 ---

Freed slaves literally fought for the North

Maybe try to familiarize yourself with the history you're claiming the "woke crowd" is trying to erase.

But would they have tried to abolish slavery? Did they even care to, even if it wasn't essential and was falling out of favor?

This, but unironically. States wanted their rights to OWN SLAVES protected.

I've noticed for a decade or so people trying to play revisionist history with the Civil War when it comes to slavery. Calling Lincoln a racist and ending slavery as some sort of cynical tyrant that just wanted to fuck with people. Research into the inner machinations and politics at the time gives us more information, it doesn't change why the fucking war happened.

They even say slavery was a choice, as if slaves weren't running away or trying to run away. Even Kanye said this... the fuck?

 

[kkck]

This, but unironically. States wanted their rights to OWN SLAVES protected.

I've noticed for a decade or so people trying to play revisionist history with the Civil War when it comes to slavery. Calling Lincoln a racist and ending slavery as some sort of cynical tyrant that just wanted to fuck with people. Research into the inner machinations and politics at the time gives us more information, it doesn't change why the fucking war happened.

Pretty much. It's plays a fairly obvious pattern for that matter. Obviously the confederacy was, well, like any other place and had millions of people and a ton of things going on simultaneously. So in practice it's easy to simply point at all the other stuff that was also going on to try and pretty much distract from how important a role slavery played into this.

That said, there is also an element of truth to framing Lincoln as racist. On one hand you have the fact that Lincoln viewed slavery as abhorrent and unsustainable (consistently at that). On the other hand he didn't think coexisting with black people as equals was possible or healthy and his intention was more or less to ship black people back to africa. In the end Lincoln was a white dude from the 1850s. I do believe it is inherently unfair to view him through modern day lenses though. Race wise he was still fairly ahead than the rest of the population (though I am sure you could nick pick at this and find even more forward thinking people if you look enough). Context wise, his adversaries straight up viewed black people as straight up subhuman...

 

[Sanity Check]

pls, learn what "woke" actually means, and learn something about the "left" other than what right wing bullshit tells you.

Stereotypes.

I have beef with the right. About as much as I do with the left.

Many on the right believe God exists so they never have to think about or know anything. They cry about being traumatized from watching pornography. They think they don't have to know 2 + 2 = 4. If they pray to God, He'll give them the answer.

Many on the right think they're super special snowflakes. Who are entitled to have freedom and rights, even if they don't fulfill their basic civic duties to defend, maintain or protect what they have.

Jimi Hendrix once said: "is life just a joke".

Today we may be one step closer to an answer.

...

Anyways, this topic could have reached its end.

Next topic plz.

 

[xi0]

Pretty much. It's plays a fairly obvious pattern for that matter. Obviously the confederacy was, well, like any other place and had millions of people and a ton of things going on simultaneously. So in practice it's easy to simply point at all the other stuff that was also going on to try and pretty much distract from how important a role slavery played into this.

That said, there is also an element of truth to framing Lincoln as racist. On one hand you have the fact that Lincoln viewed slavery as abhorrent and unsustainable (consistently at that). On the other hand he didn't think coexisting with black people as equals was possible or healthy and his intention was more or less to ship black people back to africa. In the end Lincoln was a white dude from the 1850s. I do believe it is inherently unfair to view him through modern day lenses though. Race wise he was still fairly ahead than the rest of the population (though I am sure you could nick pick at this and find even more forward thinking people if you look enough). Context wise, his adversaries straight up viewed black people as straight up subhuman...

Oh no, he most definitely was. But people want to frame it as him sticking it to the south and not really giving a shit about the practice of slavery itself, which is just nonsensical.

 

[ninjabot]

I used to work in a grocery store in a poor area of town, with plenty of bums roaming around.

Felt sorry for those people. Every once in awhile I'll try to come up with an idea to end poverty/slavery.

I care -- so I try to be informed.

Staying informed is fine; admirable even. But not if you can't keep your biases in check.

The "woke" left is more angry about slavery 200 years ago.

Than they are about slavery right now.

The left is bothered by the systemic problems that came from the slavery of 200 years ago because they're still affecting the people of today. American problems caused by Americans that affect other American problems.

And it's not like you can only acknowledge injustices in one region at a time. You don't negate our concerns about injustices here by bringing up concerns about other places.

 

[Sanity Check]

Staying informed is fine; admirable even. But not if you can't keep your biases in check.

Imagine those more upset about slavery 200 years ago, than slavery today.

Telling others to keep their "biases" in check.

The left is bothered by the systemic problems that came from the slavery of 200 years ago

Blacks are similar to asians. Imported as cheap labor to work on plantations, dig mines, build railroads.

Why are asians doing ok for themselves, while blacks on average are not?

You can't blame 200 year old slavery for it. Many asians received exactly the same treatment. And for the most part, managed to overcome it.

 

[M3J]

"Blacks"

And because society works extremely hard to oppress Black people, harder than it does Asians. Look up Tulsa, OK massacre, or the riot in NYC during the Civil War. Or how Black people weren't allowed to move to most neighborhoods. Literally, so many examples and proof of how Black people have been oppressed and unable to do well, but I guess a racist wouldn't bother to care or notice.

 

[Sanity Check]

"Blacks"

And because society works extremely hard to oppress Black people, harder than it does Asians. Look up Tulsa, OK massacre, or the riot in NYC during the Civil War. Or how Black people weren't allowed to move to most neighborhoods. Literally, so many examples and proof of how Black people have been oppressed and unable to do well, but I guess a racist wouldn't bother to care or notice.

Asians encourage their kids to study hard in school, get a good job and a career.

If black kids study hard, try to get a good job and career. Their own people put them down and accuse them of being ashamed of their race, they say they're trying to be white.

That's the most racist thing, you'll ever see oppressing black people.

Has nothing to do with slavery 200 years ago. You're welcome for me explaining it to you.

 

[ninjabot]

Imagine those more upset about slavery 200 years ago, than slavery today.

Telling others to keep their "biases" in check.

That's not bias. As an African American, I'm affected by the slavery of 200 years ago. I'm not affected by the slavery of today.

The slavery across the oceans has no affect on the systemic problems I face today personally. Why can't you understand that whataboutism doesn't address a problem? It just focuses on some other problem somewhere else so that you don't have to acknowledge the problem in front of you.

Blacks are similar to asians. Imported as cheap labor to work on plantations, dig mines, build railroads.

Why are asians doing ok for themselves, while blacks on average are not?

Black people. Not blacks. And way to generalize an entire race. Also no, asian americans haven't experienced oppression to the same degree that black people have. Asian Americans for the most part do well in America not as the descendants of slaves but as immigrants who move here willingly after they've taken the time to prepare with education and saving.

You can't blame 200 year old slavery for it. Many asians received exactly the same treatment. And for the most part, managed to overcome it.

You could've researched this.

'Model Minority' Myth Again Used As A Racial Wedge Between Asians And Blacks

The perception of universal success among Asian-Americans is being wielded to downplay racism's role in the persistent struggles of other minority groups — especially black Americans.

www.npr.org

 

[M3J]

Asians encourage their kids to study hard in school, get a good job and a career.

If black kids study hard, try to get a good job and career. Their own people put them down and accuse them of being ashamed of their race, they say they're trying to be white.

That's the most racist thing, you'll ever see oppressing black people.

Has nothing to do with slavery 200 years ago. You're welcome for me explaining it to you.

You really are a racist, aren't you? Not only that, but you seem to get almost everything wrong, constantly. It's embarrassing.

It still has plenty to do with slavery 200 years ago, and the racism that still exists to this day. Learn your history. Seriously, learn it, I'm hoping you're just trolling and pretending to be an idiot.

 

[Aeneas]

You guys are still giving attention to them? No point engaging with someone that disingenuous/ignorant.

And most of the thread seems to be replies to them, sadly.

 

[Sanity Check]

Black people. Not blacks. And way to generalize an entire race. Also no, asian americans haven't experienced oppression to the same degree that black people have. Asian Americans for the most part do well in America not as the descendants of slaves but as immigrants who move here willingly after they've taken the time to prepare with education and saving.

You really are a racist, aren't you? Not only that, but you seem to get almost everything wrong, constantly. It's embarrassing.

It still has plenty to do with slavery 200 years ago, and the racism that still exists to this day. Learn your history. Seriously, learn it, I'm hoping you're just trolling and pretending to be an idiot.

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Barack Obama is a harvard educated lawyer, who graduated with honors.

Apparently, if you're educated and have a career you can't really be black.

That's the most racist and oppressive thing you'll ever see.

 

[ninjabot]

You guys are still giving attention to them? No point engaging with someone that disingenuous/ignorant.

And most of the thread seems to be replies to them, sadly.

Actually, there is a point. I'm only speaking for myself but, here's the reason I keep responding to him:

You can't let stuff like what he says go unchecked. Debate (this isn't debate, but just roll with it) isn't intended to change the minds of your opponents, it's intended to change the minds of the audience. I know for a fact he's not the only conservative on this forum. It's certainly possible there are others here that are too ashamed to voice their beliefs, so they watch these arguments while lurking without responding, going so far as to not put likes on his posts because they don't want to be ostracized for their political ideologies on a site that isn't even meant to focus on politics.

And every time we rage against him and his political ideals, we continue to dissuade said closeted conservatives on the forum into keeping their hands off their keyboards because they don't know if they feel comfortable explaining why statues devoted to racists are okay... or that the blacks should just stop committing crimes if they don't wanna get gunned down by police... or how a woman's bodily autonomy doesn't matter if a man says it doesn't... or how vaccines totally don't work... without getting pushback.

It sounds mean, but it's politically efficacious.

 

[Aeneas]

Actually, there is a point. I'm only speaking for myself but, here's the reason I keep responding to him:

You can't let stuff like what he says go unchecked. Debate (this isn't debate, but just roll with it) isn't intended to change the minds of your opponents, it's intended to change the minds of the audience. I know for a fact he's not the only conservative on this forum. It's certainly possible there are others here that are too ashamed to voice their beliefs, so they watch these arguments while lurking without responding, going so far as to not put likes on his posts because they don't want to be ostracized for their political ideologies on a site that isn't even meant to focus on politics.

And every time we rage against him and his political ideals, we continue to dissuade said closeted conservatives on the forum into keeping their hands off their keyboards because they don't know if they feel comfortable explaining why statues devoted to racists are okay... or that the blacks should just stop committing crimes if they don't wanna get gunned down by police... or how a woman's bodily autonomy doesn't matter if a man says it doesn't... or how vaccines totally don't work... without getting pushback.

It sounds mean, but it's politically efficacious.

I’d agree more if it were multiple people.

You say that you need to push back against their posts, but replying to them causes them to spew more of this nonsense that then needs to be pushed back against. An endless feedback loop all for... a single person.

One would think the simpler solution would be just to issue a ban, but I guess some enjoy the game too much.