American Politics

[ninjabot]

I suppose agree to disagree? I could understand the birthing person thing as a joke or something to that effect but as a way actual people refer to one another?

I'm sure no one's just referring to one another that way. It's usually a way to be inclusive in a specific situation. Better safe than sorry.

I find the cis thing to be mostly... alien? Being a man or male works just fine. As far as I am concerned people are free to assume my gender and choosing my pronouns sounds crazy.

Yep. Alien. And that's it. No malicious intent behind it. Just "new". No offense intended: only inclusion. They don't want to make assumptions about you in case it's something that DOES affect you. They're being considerate to YOU.

Because they want you to be considerate to everyone else. Paying it forward.

I find the african american thing strange to be honest (i am not black or from the US). I didn't some ten years back because that's what black people usually refer themselves as but then at some point it kinda hit me that black british people don't call themselves african-british but just british (at least as far as I know). Which sort of makes way more sense.

Yeah I'm not even that worried about being called AA over being called Black. I just don't like the idea of being told they're not gonna call me what I've identified as my whole life because of their own personal view of me and my place in the world. The point of bringing up my own anecdotal experience is that, if someone had told Ana Kasparian they're not going to call her a woman because having a uterus doesn't necessarily mean she's a woman and they want to be biologically accurate, I'd be totally fine with her popping off.

But that shit ain't happening everywhere she goes. Just like how after switching therapists I don't have to deal with that ignorant woman either.

 

[xi0]

Like unintentionally humorous? As an erection-capable person I find this whole thing deeply off-putting and creepy.

It's clinical language almost certainly used in a medical discussion. It's inclusive to people who don't identify as women who are still capable of birthing a child. It could also draw a distinction between women who can give birth and those that can't. It serves a very real purpose.

Now, on the off chance that someone came up to her in California and called her a "birthing person" to her directly and refused to refer to her as a woman, then that's fucked up and she's valid for being upset by it.

Is that sort of thing representative of what most people experience, Californian or not?

Does it warrant crybullying about it on Twitter when she is on record having a full and cogent understanding of the language involved here and the negative consequences of being unmalleable?

Does it warrant doubling down on it unprompted two weeks later, shitting on her peers, and getting her boss to join in on it?

All of this is either a moronic die-on-this-hill moment that contradicts even her own past understanding of this topic, or its attention-seeking garbage.

 

[kkck]

But if the issue is clinical... why not just go with female? The term literally encompasses the entirety of the population capable of birth. It's an actual clinical/biological term. Even outside of her case specifically, I can't fathom the majority of the population taking too kindly to being called that way in a medical setting (or other settings). Birthing person sounds like something an old timey person who doesn't believe women have a place in the labor force would call a woman (at least in my head).

 

[catagon87]

In other news..


Dude is so fucking fucked. Imagine throwing your entire life away at age 21 for some Minecraft clout.

I'll be surprised if he ever sees the outside of a prison cell. His reason for leaking these docs is completely unsympathetic, too, where at least with Chelsea Manning you could argue she did it somewhat out of good consciousness and not necessarily to fuck the USA. Use to work in the DOD, and I couldn't even list what tech I used on my resume. I couldn't even have my cell phone with me at work. We couldn't connect to the internet at work, either (except a kiosk-style computer). This dude is sooooo fucked.

 

[kkck]

Jailtime? Wouldn't this qualify as treason and get him the death penalty? This at least seems pretty damn different from the chelsey manning stuff.

 

[catagon87]

Jailtime? Wouldn't this qualify as treason and get him the death penalty? This at least seems pretty damn different from the chelsey manning stuff.

Highly doubt it. There hasn't been a treason conviction in over half a century. Usually that requires some level of consciously aiding a known enemy. I don't think showing off on Minecraft for clout fits the bill on that one. IMO he will be charged with a wide array of things but I doubt treason will be one of them.

 

[kkck]

Highly doubt it. There hasn't been a treason conviction in over half a century. Usually that requires some level of consciously aiding a known enemy. I don't think showing off on Minecraft for clout fits the bill on that one. IMO he will be charged with a wide array of things but I doubt treason will be one of them.

Wait, this whole thing was.... a stupid accident, sort of?

 

[catagon87]

Wait, this whole thing was.... a stupid accident, sort of?

Not an accident, but not like he's a Russia sympathizer (from what I can tell) leaking info on the Ukraine War. Sounds like it's somewhere between trying to use classified documents to win an argument about what's going on over there, and trying to show off access of said documents.

Basically a 21 year old posted pictures of highly classified documents and intel, that only a small number of people have access to, to a private discord server full of teenagers who play Minecraft, talk about guns, and white supremacy together. He's not a Chelsea Manning or an Edward Snowden. He's just a moron.

 

[xi0]

But if the issue is clinical... why not just go with female? The term literally encompasses the entirety of the population capable of birth. It's an actual clinical/biological term. Even outside of her case specifically, I can't fathom the majority of the population taking too kindly to being called that way in a medical setting (or other settings). Birthing person sounds like something an old timey person who doesn't believe women have a place in the labor force would call a woman (at least in my head).

Because it includes female too? There's enough people who would take exception to being referred to as a female? I'm not entirely sure how trans men or non-binary people feel about being referred to that way even if you're only talking biologically. I guess the issue for me isn't whether this kind of thing can't go overboard (it probably can, but not really to me in this case?), but people who react to it as if it exists to undermine women. That's the crux of the TERF's agenda.

Well, it's an interesting take perhaps but I think most people complaining about it would just blame it on gender politics gone amok rather than it being intended as a demeaning thing. Like Ana Kasparian.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2023 ---

Basically a 21 year old posted pictures of highly classified documents and intel, that only a small number of people have access to, to a private discord server full of teenagers who play Minecraft, talk about guns, and white supremacy together. He's not a Chelsea Manning or an Edward Snowden. He's just a moron.

At first I was confused how a 21 year old national guardsmen could have access to something of this high a priority but I guess he's being arrested for spreading it on Discord and not being the source.... insane

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023 ---

If this is true, then I would have to question the apparatus that'd allow for someone like him to even have the opportunity to obtain it lol

 

[kkck]

Because it includes female too? There's enough people who would take exception to being referred to as a female? I'm not entirely sure how trans men or non-binary people feel about being referred to that way even if you're only talking biologically. I guess the issue for me isn't whether this kind of thing can't go overboard (it probably can, but not really to me in this case?), but people who react to it as if it exists to undermine women. That's the crux of the TERF's agenda.

Well, it's an interesting take perhaps but I think most people complaining about it would just blame it on gender politics gone amok rather than it being intended as a demeaning thing. Like Ana Kasparian.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2023 ---

At first I was confused how a 21 year old national guardsmen could have access to something of this high a priority but I guess he's being arrested for spreading it on Discord and not being the source.... insane

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023 ---

If this is true, then I would have to question the apparatus that'd allow for someone like him to even have the opportunity to obtain it lol

And... there's easily far more people that take exception to being referred to as something different as female? As in the actual vast majority of women, by far. I don't really see why this has to be accommodated in favor of a literally minuscule amount of the female population rather than the majority. It's not like "birthing person" can be understood as anything other than an off-putting synonym of "female".

 

[xi0]

And... there's easily far more people that take exception to being referred to as something different as female? As in the actual vast majority of women, by far. I don't really see why this has to be accommodated in favor of a literally minuscule amount of the female population rather than the majority. It's not like "birthing person" can be understood as anything other than an off-putting synonym of "female".

Why would they take exception though? Take exception because they don't understand the reason for the term existing? Or because they do and don't care?

Inclusive language is about accommodation though, that's kind of the entire point. That's why there's allergy warnings on things we buy, regardless of how minuscule the population affected by it is.

I don't see how someone can see that term as being off-putting unless someone is being referred to that way in conversation or something. The people chastising Ana for her tweets aren't going around insisting that we retire "woman" and only use "birthing person" from now on.

 

[kkck]

Why would they take exception though? Take exception because they don't understand the reason for the term existing? Or because they do and don't care?

Inclusive language is about accommodation though, that's kind of the entire point. That's why there's allergy warnings on things we buy, regardless of how minuscule the population affected by it is.

I don't see how someone can see that term as being off-putting unless someone is being referred to that way in conversation or something. The people chastising Ana for her tweets aren't going around insisting that we retire "woman" and only use "birthing person" from now on.

Because.... it's dehumanizing? Even calling someone male/female is at least a tad dehumanizing to begin with as that's how you refer to animals (even in a medical setting). but since the definition of man/woman is more inclusive nowadays then being called male/female in a medical setting should already be the compromise for inclusion. Birthing person sort of narrowing down the biological functions at play here at least sounds like a doubling down on the dehumanizing aspects of being called male/female even in a medical setting.

 

[xi0]

Because.... it's dehumanizing? Even calling someone male/female is at least a tad dehumanizing to begin with as that's how you refer to animals (even in a medical setting). but since the definition of man/woman is more inclusive nowadays then being called male/female in a medical setting should already be the compromise for inclusion. Birthing person sort of narrowing down the biological functions at play here at least sounds like a doubling down on the dehumanizing aspects of being called male/female even in a medical setting.

Okay, so, if it is dehumanizing, do you think that's intentional or something? I'm not arguing that better alternatives can't exist or anything. The issue is most of the rhetoric going against inclusive language when it comes to trans or non-binary people is that it's being done to undermine women.... or "traditional family values".... or to make way for a secret demonic plot introduced by a jewish cabal to extract adrenochrome from juvenile spinal fluid.

Narrowing down things to biological functions is something that happens all of the time in a medical setting.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-baby-hospital-missed-labor-signs/3692201002/

This is just an example where these kinds of labels can matter, regardless of the LA socialite pearl-clutching involved. None of this happens with the intent to harm anyone ever.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2023 ---

And where we stand on this topic aside, this TYT shit is yet another example of libs thinking that "no one cares" about this topic or that it's "unpopular politically" so let's just act like it doesn't matter. It's a symptom of them being so willing to be accepted that they forego their own positions in an attempt to appeal to conservatives. It's pathetic IMO.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023 ---

Or Ana and Cenk always felt this way and they were full of shit before. Grifters will grift, idk

 

[M3J]

Because.... it's dehumanizing? Even calling someone male/female is at least a tad dehumanizing to begin with as that's how you refer to animals (even in a medical setting). but since the definition of man/woman is more inclusive nowadays then being called male/female in a medical setting should already be the compromise for inclusion. Birthing person sort of narrowing down the biological functions at play here at least sounds like a doubling down on the dehumanizing aspects of being called male/female even in a medical setting.

Eh, deadnaming or misgendering transgender people or mistreating them is far more dehumanizing, but certain groups of people don't seem to care, usually for bigoted reasons. These inclusive words and phrases are nowhere near as bad, and it's honestly weird that there's more objection to inclusivity than there is to being bigoted/disrespectful.

 

[kkck]

Okay, so, if it is dehumanizing, do you think that's intentional or something? I'm not arguing that better alternatives can't exist or anything. The issue is most of the rhetoric going against inclusive language when it comes to trans or non-binary people is that it's being done to undermine women.... or "traditional family values".... or to make way for a secret demonic plot introduced by a jewish cabal to extract adrenochrome from juvenile spinal fluid.

Narrowing down things to biological functions is something that happens all of the time in a medical setting.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-baby-hospital-missed-labor-signs/3692201002/

This is just an example where these kinds of labels can matter, regardless of the LA socialite pearl-clutching involved. None of this happens with the intent to harm anyone ever.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2023 ---

And where we stand on this topic aside, this TYT shit is yet another example of libs thinking that "no one cares" about this topic or that it's "unpopular politically" so let's just act like it doesn't matter. It's a symptom of them being so willing to be accepted that they forego their own positions in an attempt to appeal to conservatives. It's pathetic IMO.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023 ---

Or Ana and Cenk always felt this way and they were full of shit before. Grifters will grift, idk

I don't think it's intentional, I definitely haven't said that. But these folk definitely at least appear to want to outrun their sex which is absurdly impossible. And also seemingly expect the rest of society join in on this in medical settings or otherwise. Um, thanks but no thanks?

I am not objecting to narrowing down things to biological function itself. Male/female does that anyways and it's literally the point and a necessity (specially on account of the modern enhanced definitions of woman/man). I am objecting to a weird synonym that manages to quadruple down on the slightly dehumanizing aspects of male/female in order to.... say the same thing but somehow worst? I keep imagining myself going to a hospital and being asked if I am a non-birthing person (or ballsacking person) and my response being some variety of "WTF PLEASE HELP ME".

Ok, read the article though I fundamentally disagree with the label issue. The article says "He was rightly classified as a man" . Um, no, he was incorrectly classified as male (at least at first). And then the medical team there wasn't really trained to deal with a female that may or may not have altered his body with surgery and hormones. It's more than a label issue.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023 ---

Eh, deadnaming or misgendering transgender people or mistreating them is far more dehumanizing, but certain groups of people don't seem to care, usually for bigoted reasons. These inclusive words and phrases are nowhere near as bad, and it's honestly weird that there's more objection to inclusivity than there is to being bigoted/disrespectful.

None of that has anything to do with anything that has been said.

 

[catagon87]

At first I was confused how a 21 year old national guardsmen could have access to something of this high a priority but I guess he's being arrested for spreading it on Discord and not being the source.... insane

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2023 ---

If this is true, then I would have to question the apparatus that'd allow for someone like him to even have the opportunity to obtain it lol

I'm not surprised by it at all. Most intelligence personnel in the military are enlisted, and many enlist at ages 18 to 22. It's more surprising that he was willing to leak it. Even for a 21 year old it should be fairly obvious how stupid that is. I got my clearance at age 23 and had to go through a polygraph test, and have just about everyone I knew interviewed by an investigator (who was an ex-FBI agent). To legitimately have access to what he had he'd of had to go through similar.

 

[Newkerzy]

I'm not surprised by it at all. Most intelligence personnel in the military are enlisted, and many enlist at ages 18 to 22. It's more surprising that he was willing to leak it. Even for a 21 year old it should be fairly obvious how stupid that is. I got my clearance at age 23 and had to go through a polygraph test, and have just about everyone I knew interviewed by an investigator (who was an ex-FBI agent). To legitimately have access to what he had he'd of had to go through similar.

So would you consider putting the onus on the Pentagon for this, or the perpetrator himself?

 

[catagon87]

So would you consider putting the onus on the Pentagon for this, or the perpetrator himself?

Both.

The guy is 21. As a 35 year old I can look back and of course think "Wow, I was a big idiot back then!"
OTOH we're old enough to drink, go die in a war, and people at that age could potentially be starting medical or dental school. He should have enough training to know better. Even at companies that aren't involved with the government there are rules for what's confidential, restricted and what's public, and you can still get into trouble releasing stuff you aren't suppose to. He knows damned well what the consequences of his actions could be and is an adult who should be charged as such. When I worked in the DOD we had to check out cell phones in before entering the skiff. We couldn't use the internet even inside. There were no 2-way communication devices allowed. If I accidentally walked in with my cell phone in my pocket I had to report that incident to security.

That said, it's probably time for the Pentagon to rethink how they secure highly classified information. This has happened more than once and under many different pretenses. Not recognizing that the materials were taken is on the Pentagon. This stuff shouldn't be showing up on the news before they know they have a breach.

 

[M3J]

None of that has anything to do with anything that has been said.

It does. You were complaining about the term being dehumanizing even though it's not.

 

[ninjabot]