American Politics

[M3J]

To be fair, this mess with Ukraine and Russia IS the US' business. Since it involves NATO, EU and allied countries. The US is not even threatening to invade anyone this time around (unless I am missing something). Even if you blame this mess on bad diplomacy from the US to russia... what then? Putin pretty much just said ukraine has zero right to be a country at all.

I mean, I"m silent on this because I have no idea what's going on and who to believe.

 

[xi0]

The West is absolutely propagandizing the entire situation. The media is chomping at the bit for some sort of armed conflict. Showing Ukrainian grandmothers being trained by soldiers to fire a gun. None of the mainstream outlets bothers to mention they're being trained by the Azov Battalion, Neo-nazis trained and funded by the US government though. Curious.

 

[kkck]

The West is absolutely propagandizing the entire situation. The media is chomping at the bit for some sort of armed conflict. Showing Ukrainian grandmothers being trained by soldiers to fire a gun. None of the mainstream outlets bothers to mention they're being trained by the Azov Battalion, Neo-nazis trained and funded by the US government though. Curious.

So... what's the truth here then? What difference does that specific bit make?

 

[xi0]

So... what's the truth here then? What difference does that specific bit make?

That this isn't about preserving democracy. The US has done this over and over again in multiple countries and conflicts, way too willing to fund the most reactionary groups of people imaginable only because they think it'll further their ends and it always backfires.

Putin wouldn't turn down annexing the entirety of Ukraine if he could, but the point is this is an issue due to Western involvement in the country. Removing a buffer state is bad for both sides here, but the western media apparatus is continuing to be anything but even-handed when it comes to portraying the reasons for this conflict. There is zero criticism laid at the feet of the enlargement of NATO.

Like I alluded to before - what do we think the reaction would be in the US to the idea of Russian military deployments in Mexico?

 

[ninjabot]

So, my thoughts on the situation:

I don't think Biden needed to offer Putin anything to avoid this situation. I don't agree with appeasement, especially when that appeasement goes to a monster. If we don't make him bend the knee now, Poland and Romania is next. I also see the problems with NATO expanding:

The Costs and Dangers of NATO Expansion - Institute for Policy Studies

With the end of the cold war and the demise of the Soviet threat, NATO must find new rationales for its existence.

ips-dc.org

but still agree that it's necessary, but just needs some revisions. I think the difficulties caused by it's expansion aren't NATO's fault in itself, but rather problems that exist already only because of Europe's political climate. NATO exacerbates tensions that already exists among territories as far as I can tell. It doesn't make new ones, and offers solutions to some of them.

I do wonder what the reaction to Mexico intending to sign the Warsaw Pact would be received, and whether the US' reaction to that would be considered justified or not.

The Warsaw Pact is like All Lives Matter is to Black Lives Matter. An agreeable statement that was only made to counter BLM and promote a different ideology hidden under the guise of inclusion. And the Warsaw Pact and NATO are ideologically opposed too. Hopefully the US would treat Mexico as if it just joined a group intended to protect and expand Communist ideology with an iron fist. I feel like that would be justified.

 

[Koen]

Sovereign State… and all the other arguments are totally irrelevant.

International laws/rights are more new/fresh than criminal law, civil law, contract law,…
It is a law which had its birth after WWII. What do you expect?

Russia’s actions can not be tolerated but refusing to reorganise a country also leads to these problems. Ukraine should redraw its State and its sovereignity in a way that you dismantle it like what happened to TsjechoSlowakia. Otherwise you have a former Yugoslavia scenario.

A lot of people are looking to it as one and single problem, whereas a State reform - with/without the intervention of another state - is always a nowadays phenomenom.

For me: the Donbass regio is just the same as the Catalunia regio. With only one difference: the first one has a huge country as an active supporter, the latter one has to do it by itself.

 

[ninjabot]

Not to change the subject, just wanted to bring this to attention.

 

[M3J]

Not to change the subject, just wanted to bring this to attention.

I'm still pissed about this disgusting act. Not to mention, how bigots pretend to be concerned about women being assaulted bathrooms but stay quiet when adults are actually assaulting transgender kids in bathrooms. Abbott and anyone who agrees with him are pieces of shit, they don't have children's welfare in mind, just bigotry.

 

[kkck]

That this isn't about preserving democracy. The US has done this over and over again in multiple countries and conflicts, way too willing to fund the most reactionary groups of people imaginable only because they think it'll further their ends and it always backfires.

Putin wouldn't turn down annexing the entirety of Ukraine if he could, but the point is this is an issue due to Western involvement in the country. Removing a buffer state is bad for both sides here, but the western media apparatus is continuing to be anything but even-handed when it comes to portraying the reasons for this conflict. There is zero criticism laid at the feet of the enlargement of NATO.

Like I alluded to before - what do we think the reaction would be in the US to the idea of Russian military deployments in Mexico?

I don't really know what to do with this information. I mean, how relevant is the western media apparatus to the events unfolding now? Maybe it was relevant 20 years ago when it didn't accurately on how the US and EU were doing russia dirty with the nato expansion? But what about today? As far as I can tell the issue wasn't merely nato, putin wasn't a fan of ukraine joining the EU either. I am by no means an expert here but regardless of what i read about the causes and context of this the main thing still appears to be that putin pretty much wants to get the soviet union back together (something of which he has been rather overt pretty much always).

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Mask opponents are kinda terrorists, if not bio terrorists. They're choosing their own convenience over protecting others.

While I thought this line was idiotic, even for you, I then came the realization we both agree on one thing:

I have no idea what's going on

=============================
[insert hard break]

The West is absolutely propagandizing the entire situation. The media is chomping at the bit for some sort of armed conflict. Showing Ukrainian grandmothers being trained by soldiers to fire a gun. None of the mainstream outlets bothers to mention they're being trained by the Azov Battalion, Neo-nazis trained and funded by the US government though. Curious.

Actually agreed.

So, my thoughts on the situation:

Once read were just as cringe as I imagined.

Gotta love the both sides idiots.

So, are you saying that 'both sides' (are) idiots, or that those that believe in the horseshoe political spectrum "theory" are idiots ('both sides idiots')?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 24, 2022 ---

Not to change the subject, just wanted to bring this to attention.

More idiocy and hysterics from the agenda-machine.

The memo and the tweet you reference are incongruent.

I mean, a war may have just gone kinetic, possibly leading to WWIII, but never stop never stopping.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

the main thing still appears to be that putin pretty much wants to get the soviet union back together

This line gets thrown around A LOT. What does that even mean?

Is Putin counting on the technological singularity so he can live forever in doing so?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

That this isn't about preserving democracy. The US has done this over and over again in multiple countries and conflicts, way too willing to fund the most reactionary groups of people imaginable only because they think it'll further their ends and it always backfires.

Putin wouldn't turn down annexing the entirety of Ukraine if he could, but the point is this is an issue due to Western involvement in the country. Removing a buffer state is bad for both sides here, but the western media apparatus is continuing to be anything but even-handed when it comes to portraying the reasons for this conflict. There is zero criticism laid at the feet of the enlargement of NATO.

Like I alluded to before - what do we think the reaction would be in the US to the idea of Russian military deployments in Mexico?

On point yet again.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

Report:

The artillery of the DPR hit the headquarters of the operation of the combined forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Donbass.

The headquarters, which houses the entire command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which controls the Ukrainian military, is on fire.

If losses are confirmed, we can assume that the Ukrainian General Staff has lost control of its troops.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

Unconfirmed report of Hungary sealing off Ukrainian border with its military. May see Ukrainians flee to Poland.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

Belarus is involved. Trading fire at their border.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

More video as the tactical blitzkrieg unfolds tonight:

Russian Retaliation Strike Happened (VIDEO)

After years of tolerating violence and bullying by Kiev regime, Moscow decided to retaliate vigorously. On February 24, 2022, a...

southfront.org

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

Up next: Taiwan (50/50)

 

[xi0]

The Warsaw Pact is like All Lives Matter is to Black Lives Matter. An agreeable statement that was only made to counter BLM and promote a different ideology hidden under the guise of inclusion. And the Warsaw Pact and NATO are ideologically opposed too. Hopefully the US would treat Mexico as if it just joined a group intended to protect and expand Communist ideology with an iron fist. I feel like that would be justified.

It doesn't need to be the Warsaw Pact specifically, only that it's analogous to NATO. The US would not tolerate the notion of Russian military installations being installed on their southern border. that's just a fact.

I don't really know what to do with this information. I mean, how relevant is the western media apparatus to the events unfolding now? Maybe it was relevant 20 years ago when it didn't accurately on how the US and EU were doing russia dirty with the nato expansion? But what about today? As far as I can tell the issue wasn't merely nato, putin wasn't a fan of ukraine joining the EU either. I am by no means an expert here but regardless of what i read about the causes and context of this the main thing still appears to be that putin pretty much wants to get the soviet union back together (something of which he has been rather overt pretty much always).

I think that's one way of describing it perhaps, but this aggression isn't in a vacuum. It's in response to leaving open invitations to join NATO to countries like Ukraine. We're seeing right this minute why that was never a possibility, as we'd be at the doorstep of WW3, because that is what NATO demands.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Madness. I find myself in agreement with the admin.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 24, 2022 ---

Hope everyone filled their tanks.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022 ---

"This war and suffering could have easily been avoided if Biden Admin/NATO had simply acknowledged Russia’s legitimate security concerns regarding Ukraine’s becoming a member of NATO, which would mean US/NATO forces right on Russia’s border."

Tulsi is a million percent correct.

 

[xi0]

Madness. I find myself in agreement with the admin.

Probably because you have some sort of grudge against the commie EU or hope for Biden to seem more inept than he already is.

I would just prefer there be 1 less country for NATO to sell billions of dollars worth of weapons to and for western hegemony to not get any larger than it is.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Probably because you have some sort of grudge against the commie EU or hope for Biden to seem more inept than he already is.

I would just prefer there be 1 less country for NATO to sell billions of dollars worth of weapons to and for western hegemony to not get any larger than it is.

I've been consistent in my disdain for neocons/neolibs. And I'm as much anti-war as you can get short of putting flowers in gun barrels.

I did not like Trump's arms sales. Or shit like what was allowed in Yemen, etc (so many etc's). (obviously because I absolutely hate brown people!)

So, no, I'm impartial to who is in charge and try to be objective and consistent in my opinions. Unlike the party in charge du jour and their MSM cheerleaders. You know, the guys saying that the vaccine was something to shy away from until they didn't?

As for Biden, I don't cheer his ineptitude. He's doing a GREAT job of proving that regardless of my feels one way or another about him.

I'd prefer we minded our own business. There's enough wrong here domestically. I'm not thrilled at how quickly this can escalate and what that means for people, myself included.

So I poo-poo your claim I'm politicizing this in any way. That's not MY shtick. I'll leave that for the resident clowns posting the same tired talking points.



BTW, I have a lot of family in the 'commie EU' - so I'll choose not to take offense to your jabs that I'm somehow happy in some way things are going.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 24, 2022 ---

Poland and Romania is next.

This is particularly stupid.

Will never happen for more reasons than you can begin to comprehend. It's not a goal of Russia (this is an asinine media talking point, which is no wonder you are here repeating it), and even if it were, your existence would turn upside-down before that was allowed, and you wouldn't even know why.

 

[xi0]

So I poo-poo your claim I'm politicizing this in any way.

Perhaps not here, you've mostly absolved yourself I guess. But it seemed that way to me by you bringing up Taiwan, which has been a talking point brought up by a lot of people in regards to the whole "American strength" nonsense.

BTW, I have a lot of family in the 'commie EU' - so I'll choose not to take offense to your jabs that I'm somehow happy in some way things are going.

Sorry then, I wish them well.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

But it seemed that way to me by you bringing up Taiwan, which has been a talking point brought up by a lot of people in regards to the whole "American strength" nonsense.

No, that's remorse. As in, I *fear* China will be emboldened. They are watching. They are tacitly in support. India is ironically as well, but China is the concern.

Russia can exist with 100% sanctions entirely due to China. It's no surprise the two leaders were playing grab-ass recently at the Olympics, and just inked *yet another* bilateral trade deal (this time in energy... Russia has to export it somewhere).

All this also isn't good for the USD, but that's another can of worms.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 24, 2022 ---

Taiwan is a bit more complicated though, because of our contractual obligations there are more formalized. And the trade routes in the Pacific for our allies... very complicated. I'm hardly a hawk wanting to put aircraft carrier groups there or anything, but shit isn't so black and white. I'm not sure why you picture me here chanting USA! USA! like some dumbass jingoist.

Imagine if we had just did what we said that Russia wouldn't have reacted as such. The media is reporting this like there hasn't been a civil war inside Ukraine now for the better part of a decade and Russia is just doing a land-grab. Although that's not entirely incorrect, he has just as solid reasons as we had to go into ________ (insert any country of the many we've been involved with since the fall of the SU).

The other piece is how the threat of Russia has been stoked by D's as political ammunition. Both sides are very guilty of stirring the pot and playing to certain interests that benefit: their investments/their reelection/MIC/Israel/energy dominance/etc though I repeat myself...



Don't worry, we still don't agree on anything else, so all is well. Dyed-in-the-wool, full-blown communists are still retarded in my book, comrade.

 

[Franz]

So, Biden was rigth

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

So, Biden was rigth

If that's your takeaway of importance, sure. I mean, it's not like his state department had any hand in this...

 

[shionoro]

@xi0

"Putin wouldn't turn down annexing the entirety of Ukraine if he could, but the point is this is an issue due to Western involvement in the country. Removing a buffer state is bad for both sides here, but the western media apparatus is continuing to be anything but even-handed when it comes to portraying the reasons for this conflict. There is zero criticism laid at the feet of the enlargement of NATO."

My question to you would be why it should be criticized. The point is not that the US or EU do not have interests in Ukraine. They do and that is not anything inherently bad, every country acts out of self interest.

But eastern europe wants to be in EU and Nato (at least most of it). And the reason for that is that there is russian aggression, no matter whether the country wants to be in these entities or not.
There was talk of Ukraine joining nato 2005, but it was denied. Back then, Russia had no problem with it.

The russian aggression against ukraine predated the ukraine crisis, even before it, when janukovich was rather putin friendly, russia would always threaten it via energy and economy when it didnt obey.
That was one reason why Ukraine even drifted towards the EU.

The russian military aggression, annexing parts of it, started when it was clear that ukraine decided for EU instead of eurasion union. That had nothing to do with nato, at that point in time, most ukrainians were against joining nato and had positive images of russia. That did not help Ukraine at all.
Joining the EU is hardly a hostile act against russia. Finland is in it, so are many states bordering to russia, and these states never acted aggressively against russia.

Only after Russia kept undermining ukrainian sovereignity, Ukraine started to seriously want to join Nato. And why would they not be allowed to do that? Do you honestly think Russia would not snatch them if they wouldn't want to join Nato? I find that naive.
Ukraine wants to join Nato for its own safety, and we should accept that. Granting it that safety is not something that should be criticized but applauded.

The west now has to impose serious sanctions even at its own expense to protect Ukraine and keep russia from trying the same thing with other states or using it as a threat against even eastern nato/EU states. And it should push for nato and eu membership of georgia and moldova.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

@xi0



My question to you would be why it should be criticized. The point is not that the US or EU do not have interests in Ukraine. They do and that is not anything inherently bad, every country acts out of self interest.

But eastern europe wants to be in EU and Nato (at least most of it). And the reason for that is that there is russian aggression, no matter whether the country wants to be in these entities or not.
There was talk of Ukraine joining nato 2005, but it was denied. Back then, Russia had no problem with it.

The russian aggression against ukraine predated the ukraine crisis, even before it, when janukovich was rather putin friendly, russia would always threaten it via energy and economy when it didnt obey.
That was one reason why Ukraine even drifted towards the EU.

The russian military aggression, annexing parts of it, started when it was clear that ukraine decided for EU instead of eurasion union. That had nothing to do with nato, at that point in time, most ukrainians were against joining nato and had positive images of russia. That did not help Ukraine at all.
Joining the EU is hardly a hostile act against russia. Finland is in it, so are many states bordering to russia, and these states never acted aggressively against russia.

Only after Russia kept undermining ukrainian sovereignity, Ukraine started to seriously want to join Nato. And why would they not be allowed to do that? Do you honestly think Russia would not snatch them if they wouldn't want to join Nato? I find that naive.

The west now has to impose serious sanctions even at its own expense to protect Ukraine and keep russia from trying the same thing with other states or using it as a threat against even eastern nato/EU states. And it should push for nato and eu membership of georgia and moldova.

You mentioned Russian aggression 3x. And undermining Ukrainian sovereignity.

I don't see you mentioning Ukraine undermining it's own sovereignity, or the US via NATO, doing the same. Or the bullying of the Eastern territories (by Kiev). Or the actual, literal Nazification of Ukrainian forces. Or the detaining of political rivals. Or the events in Odessa. I could go on.

Basically: Russia Russia Russia - all bad. Western interests, all good. Or good enough to gloss over rather important points for their own transgressions.

None of what you wrote has anything to do with how expanding NATO countries to include border states is breaking vow after vow, or how if the shoe was on the other foot it would in no way be tolerated. You actually suggest even more of the same. That's really working out great.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 24, 2022 ---

Oh, and our interests in Ukraine are hardly harmless.

I find it humorous that the tail wagging the dog is given as justification for the continued wagging of said dog.