American Politics

Brandish μ

Taking notes
伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member
Global Moderator
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
10,243
Reaction score
33,627
Gender
Male
Country
Kingdom of Fiore
As i said, the numbers back it up. This link says (at the lower half) that especially the number of people who said they were unlikely or very unlikely to take part in climate action diminished after the april JSO protests. Survey | Social Change Lab

This protest is effective all over the board. If you are actually a potential climate activist, that means you are already convinced of climate change. If you are not convinced of climate change by now, there are countless of scientists and more moderate forms of activism that try to get through to you.
There is really no excuse for those who still deny climate change. The people who do need to be disregarded, we cannot wait for them.
No denying the data.

It'll be interesting. If 1.7 million people stop using oil, it could catch on. Sometimes it takes one person to do the right thing for others to follow.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

The comment^ is somewhat tongue in cheek, but if the protest has efficacy I stand corrected, would not have thought it possible.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
THe activist herself explains the protest like this:

 

kkck

Waifu Slayer
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
46,245
Reaction score
24,896
Gender
Hidden
Country
Fire Nation
1.- The most important thing is that there's no damage to the painting.
2.- If there's a fraction of a smudge on the painting then the kids should be trialed as adults, if only to make an example out of them. There's perfectly ok ways to get in on people's faces regarding however many causes that don't involve a non zero change of damage to priceless cultural treasures.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
1.- The most important thing is that there's no damage to the painting.
2.- If there's a fraction of a smudge on the painting then the kids should be trialed as adults, if only to make an example out of them. There's perfectly ok ways to get in on people's faces regarding however many causes that don't involve a non zero change of damage to priceless cultural treasures.
I really don't get that. Why should they be punished severely just for vandalizing an expensive option? Art can be bought, no matter how expensive or valuable or good. In a world in which art can be bought and freely destroyed, making a fuzz about this lacks integrity.
Why won't the same outrage happen about the invaluable and unique natural treasures that are destroyed everyday and why wont the people responsible for that be trialed?

Why will this guy not be trialed? An Alleged $10 Million Frida Kahlo Drawing Was Destroyed to Sell a Collection of NFTs | Observer


"Martin Mobarak, a Mexican-American tech entrepreneur, claims he burned an original Frida Kahlo drawing at a Miami party in July in an attempt to bring attention to his launch of 10,000 NFTs depicting Kahlo’s artwork.

In a video detailing the event, Mobarak sets the drawing ablaze in an oversized martini glass, surrounded by party-goers, flamethrowers and a mariachi band."

Lets not act like art suddenly becomes invaluable when it is in a museum funded by BP but is irrelevant and can be bought and sold in any other context.
Even if they had destroyed that painting (which i would have found wrong), a severe punishment would be absurd.
 

kkck

Waifu Slayer
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
46,245
Reaction score
24,896
Gender
Hidden
Country
Fire Nation
I really don't get that. Why should they be punished severely just for vandalizing an expensive option? Art can be bought, no matter how expensive or valuable or good. In a world in which art can be bought and freely destroyed, making a fuzz about this lacks integrity.
Why won't the same outrage happen about the invaluable and unique natural treasures that are destroyed everyday and why wont the people responsible for that be trialed?

Why will this guy not be trialed? An Alleged $10 Million Frida Kahlo Drawing Was Destroyed to Sell a Collection of NFTs | Observer


"Martin Mobarak, a Mexican-American tech entrepreneur, claims he burned an original Frida Kahlo drawing at a Miami party in July in an attempt to bring attention to his launch of 10,000 NFTs depicting Kahlo’s artwork.

In a video detailing the event, Mobarak sets the drawing ablaze in an oversized martini glass, surrounded by party-goers, flamethrowers and a mariachi band."

Lets not act like art suddenly becomes invaluable when it is in a museum funded by BP but is irrelevant and can be bought and sold in any other context.
Even if they had destroyed that painting (which i would have found wrong), a severe punishment would be absurd.
What are you even talking about? This reads like absurd nonsense.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
What are you even talking about? This reads like absurd nonsense.
I am saying that the notion that you should make an example out of people for accidently putting a little smudge on a painting is absurd for many different reasons that i have outlined.
 

kkck

Waifu Slayer
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
46,245
Reaction score
24,896
Gender
Hidden
Country
Fire Nation
I am saying that the notion that you should make an example out of people for accidently putting a little smudge on a painting is absurd for many different reasons that i have outlined.
I will stress that your post is mostly nonsensical self serving gibberish. Art being publicly or private owned has exactly zero relevance to the issue at hand. If it belonged to a rich asshole and it got ruined then they should be treated as people who caused extensive damage to private property. Because, you know, common sense. This painting however was in the UK's national gallery. Whose collection they hold for the British government, as in, it's public. It' belongs to taxpayers (except the parts of their collection which was stolen of course). These kids had zero right to put any amount of risk to these and the only silver lining here is that they didn't cause damage to the painting.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
I will stress that your post is mostly nonsensical self serving gibberish. Art being publicly or private owned has exactly zero relevance to the issue at hand. If it belonged to a rich asshole and it got ruined then they should be treated as people who caused extensive damage to private property. Because, you know, common sense. This painting however was in the UK's national gallery. Whose collection they hold for the British government, as in, it's public. It' belongs to taxpayers (except the parts of their collection which was stolen of course). These kids had zero right to put any amount of risk to these and the only silver lining here is that they didn't cause damage to the painting.
FIrst of all, there was zero risk for the painting. They knew it was behind glas, lets not act like it was any other way.

Secondly: It has a lot of relevance how we treat art in general. If you make an issue out them POSSIBLY accidentally hurting a painting, you need a proper reason why. Just because the national gallery owns it? Why? If it is just about property damage, you dont need to "make an example" out of someone. If you claim art or public owned property has inherently more value, then you need a reason.

If they had accidently hurt that painting without intending to, jailtime would be way over the line.
 

kkck

Waifu Slayer
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
46,245
Reaction score
24,896
Gender
Hidden
Country
Fire Nation
FIrst of all, there was zero risk for the painting. They knew it was behind glas, lets not act like it was any other way.

Secondly: It has a lot of relevance how we treat art in general. If you make an issue out them POSSIBLY accidentally hurting a painting, you need a proper reason why. Just because the national gallery owns it? Why? If it is just about property damage, you dont need to "make an example" out of someone. If you claim art or public owned property has inherently more value, then you need a reason.

If they had accidently hurt that painting without intending to, jailtime would be way over the line.
There's literally no situation where throwing anything at the art in museums, protected or otherwise, is acceptable. Stupid kids doing this over climate change has exactly zero relevance to that.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
There's literally no situation where throwing anything at the art in museums, protected or otherwise, is acceptable. Stupid kids doing this over climate change has exactly zero relevance to that.
But what is the reasoning behind that claim? I find throwing tomato sauce at plexiglas to get media attention with the aim of fighting climate change very acceptable and I did back up that protest forms like that are useful and working.
My source is from april, but back then they already destroyed property.

And their art protests have been the most successful ones so far (both the "gluing to painting" and this protest). Civil Disobedience works and is useful. And using an art museum for it is just another stage.
Using Van Goghs art to fight climate change is probably a lot closer to what van gogh would think is right most other uses, including just letting it hang for tourists.
 

xi0

あの術
最終形態 / Saishuu Keitai / Final Form
Administrator
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
65,177
Reaction score
30,212
Gender
Male
Country
Pyke
THe activist herself explains the protest like this:

How many people read about the incident or watched the video compared to those who watched this video?

I'm not necessarily against protests or even vandalism if the cause is justified. The target being what it was here is silly though and undermines the point of what they're doing.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
How many people read about the incident or watched the video compared to those who watched this video?

I'm not necessarily against protests or even vandalism if the cause is justified. The target being what it was here is silly though and undermines the point of what they're doing.
People keep repeating that, but i doubt that is true. What they did is not any more or less justified than blocking general traffic (which seemed to be effective).

I think the mechanism of this is a lot like advertizement. You do not need to think that you liked an ad. You do not need to even notice that it influenced you, but ads are still very effective, especially when they are deemed as stupid.

I think the climate movement does well to think about what is practical here. And this kind of protest, while not necessarily beautiful, is practical. It is fit to fire up the base (make more people go protest) and keep the general public from ignoring the topic, because they are confronted with it time after time (even if the protest form is in the foreground, whenever just stop oil marches, their talking points are still repeated).

Saying that this form of protest does not work is like saying covid denialism does not work. It seems crazy many people (because in that case, it absolutely is) when people claim to inject bleach or that the vaccine will make you gay, but even the noncrazy public is influenced by talking points like "the vaccine is not safe" being repeated again and again and by lots and lots of loonies marching around and screaming. Its not that their arguments were sound, but the panic they raised were fit to influence the emotional state of the public to one of more doubt.

This form of protest works in tandem with the other forms of climate activism (for example politicians but also lawful climate movements). These movements provide the proper arguments and lobbyist work, but just stop oil creates a continuous situation in which people are confronted by the topic and cannot really escape it.
 

xi0

あの術
最終形態 / Saishuu Keitai / Final Form
Administrator
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
65,177
Reaction score
30,212
Gender
Male
Country
Pyke
People keep repeating that, but i doubt that is true. What they did is not any more or less justified than blocking general traffic (which seemed to be effective).
Traffic exists because of fossil fuels, so yeah you can very easily say demonstrations involving that are more justified, more pointed, and would probably be more effective.

Now, it's obviously not safer and that's why a target like a painting is being used instead because it's just that fucking stupid.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---





But it's okay guys, Republicans "lower taxes"...
--- Double Post Merged, ---

AKA they let you keep more money so you can pay more for gas
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
Corporate always cause inflation and scapegoat workers for it. Easier to justify raising prices to increase profit by blaming wage increase/more benefits, so that way people aren't as likely to refuse to buy from you, I guess.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
Traffic exists because of fossil fuels, so yeah you can very easily say demonstrations involving that are more justified, more pointed, and would probably be more effective.

Now, it's obviously not safer and that's why a target like a painting is being used instead because it's just that fucking stupid.
But is that connection, when it comes to just the general traffic, really bigger than the thematic connection to "we lose something unique and precious every day" and setting that protest in a museum? Just because traffic uses fossil fuels does not mean that blocking traffic has a very direct connection to the cause of the activists. A direct connection would be if they occupy a ministry or at least a company building to push through their demands. Their demand is not "traffic needs to stop" or that people instantly stop using cars. JSO has no problem with people, in the current time, driving to work. They demand that politicians take action for a green turn and for that demand, they want the general public to feel a bigger sense of urgency, which is why they want to use disruptions of public life of all kinds to instill that sense of urgency. Their actions are always indirect.

I do not think it is justified to block random cars that are driving to work in itself. it only becomes justified because it points to actually rational demands. if that would not be the case, blocking cars would, in itself, be just as absurd as symbolically attacking a painting.
 

ninjabot

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
8,247
Reaction score
3,239
Age
41
Gender
Male
Country
United States
I remember that one protest from like a year ago that stopped traffic, and a guy was on parole... and one of the rules of his parole was that he had to maintain a job. And if he didn't make it to his job he'd be fired. And a violation of his parole meant going back to prison. He was screaming at the protestors to stop blocking the road, but they wouldn't move.

I definitely felt sorry for the dude.
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
I remember that one protest from like a year ago that stopped traffic, and a guy was on parole... and one of the rules of his parole was that he had to maintain a job. And if he didn't make it to his job he'd be fired. And a violation of his parole meant going back to prison. He was screaming at the protestors to stop blocking the road, but they wouldn't move.

I definitely felt sorry for the dude.
I hope he didn't lose his job or go back to prison
 

McNuss

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
2,436
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
THe activist herself explains the protest like this:

Aww come on.

These people, first and foremost are grabbing for attention. Attention for themselves.

There are a hundred thousand more efficient ways to spent your time if you want to fight climate change, including those that can seriously grab attention, just maybe not for yourself personally.

I can understand, that as a young person you want to be the change. But that's megalomania.
Did this form of protest ever lead anywhere? We arguably have a very huge green movement in Germany that has frequently pulled of similar actions, often a lot more dangerous (like on the autobahn).

Where does the Green Party, as powerful as never before stand now? It is a neoconservative pro-business lobby, full of shite, traitors to their own agenda.
But this has a lot to do with their left wing "Fundis" absolutely wasting their time with this for, I don't know how long it's been, four decades? Paving the way for the right-wing "Realos" to completely take over the party?

I feel very sorry for the people in Lützerath (a village that is to be resettled for coal mining). But maybe activists, instead of damaging RWE property, should have prevented freaking Mona Neubaur from taking power within the Greens, then forming a coalition with the CDU? Which also kept the evil Minister of Inner Security Herbert Reul in office, who brutally used the police against peaceful climate activists in the Hambacher Forest?

These kind of activisms lead nowhere. Just half-baked and stupid. At least they could have thrown the soup at actual Tories...
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
Did this form of protest ever lead anywhere?
Yes, in recent times, we saw that a lot from the right.
Covid deniers were usually a minority, especially in germany, but them being angry on street nonstop and taking over social media led to political action to appease the situation (same in other countries).
The same goes for opponents of refugees or right extremist. When they start marching, even if they are a stark minority and everybody hates them, usually the government relents. Because actions like these inevitably lead confusion and anger in society and politic does not like that.

No matter what you think of these two (or many more) movements that used radical action, they often got shit done. That can hardly be denied.
Destroying RWE property and freaking out certainly has an effect. Without that, I doubt the coal exit would come as quickly as it does.

I feel very sorry for the people in Lützerath (a village that is to be resettled for coal mining). But maybe activists, instead of damaging RWE property, should have prevented freaking Mona Neubaur from taking power within the Greens, then forming a coalition with the CDU? Which also kept the evil Minister of Inner Security Herbert Reul in office, who brutally used the police against peaceful climate activists in the Hambacher Forest?
Oh, prevent how? And with which aim? You are contradicting yourself here. On the one hand, you (falsely) claim the Greens are a neonconservative party, on the other, you say actual radical action is wrong. That only leaves doing nothing and ranting about everybody else as the one true activism.
The greens do what the greens are supposed to do, and part of it is governing, even if it is a coalition they do not like.
The activists do what the activists are supposed to do, in all different factions. FFF does, Ende Gelände does, Last generation/Just stop Oil does.

The big question is, do you?
 
Top