American Politics

[xi0]

Nah, I just feel too strongly about wanting to see Black people finally thrive instead of having to deal with racism every single day. the more I learn about the actual history, the more disturbed I get at knowing how non-white people have been treated.

Fair enough, but some people might get the wrong idea if you use that kind of phrasing, so I'd avoid it

 

[M3J]

I understand, I wasn't really thinking when I said that. Indigenous people deserve the same reparation too, they've lost too much as well.

 

[kkck]

The way you worded it made it sound like you included yourself among Black people, and we both know you aren't lol

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 28, 2023 ---

The money doesn't undo the history of violent racism in this country. How recipients would feel about it is up to them. The money would be paid out because this is how damages are settled in any other matter. I guess to put it another way - reparations don't and shouldn't exist to address those questions really. This country was built upon labor that black people were not fairly compensated for. Like Hitchens said, there's bricks in DC buildings laid there by slaves.

It's an interesting question, but I would say reparations are still deserved, yeah. The US having proper social safety nets for all citizens doesn't undo slavery. But from a pragmatic standpoint, it probably wouldn't be thought about in the same way if the material conditions of the average black person were better.

Feelings are up to recipients but I don't think this works like a conventional case in regards to those. In a normal case you put a money value on damages and once that value is paid for in full the matter is settled and finalized. End of story, feelings be dammed. But.... in this case no one currently alive was a slave. It already takes somewhat exceptional circumstances for someone's grandfather today to have been a slave. No one can actually put a money value on this. And as mentioned before to begin with this is symbolic. There's clearly an economic component here, that's unarguable, but as important, if not more, is the feeling component. You can't really separate the two. So, um, what's the point of reparations if it doesn't help the wounds at play heal? My point is not "don't do reparations" but rather, "how do you make them work/be meaningful?". Without that it's just people with a guilty conscience (but not really, I am pretty sure for most Caucasian people this is history book stuff) trying to feel better about themselves.

 

[ninjabot]

As Mangahelpers HNIC I can't let the reparations talk pass without throwing my two cents in. Shocker: I'm pro-reparation. I don't know what the best way to do it is. What I DO know though, is that there are answers to a lot of the anti-reparation side that seem to be legitimate to me.

1: "How do we tell which Black people we should cut a check? Not every black is a child of slavery!"

True, but reparations aren't intended to be payback to the people that were enslaved. It's to repay the victims of wrongdoing (in this case, slavery). The victims are everyone suffering the effects of that wrongdoing today. And that's all black Americans.

Naruto, Karin, and Nagato are all affected by the Uzumaki genocide despite their kin being annihilated long before either of these 3 were born, so they are victims of the Uzumaki genocide, despite their own parents not being assassinated during the event directly, because they still live under the global scrutiny that lead to the wrongdoing in the first place as well as the stigma and institutions born of it because of it. If the Uzumaki were granted reparations, Naruto shouldn't miss out because his mother was the strongest woman in Konoha before she passed, or because he's the Hokage and thus is not lacking in power and influence... because ALL of the non-Uzumaki of the ninja world still enjoy the benefits of an Uzumakiless society (they were killed off because their Fuuinjutsu were feared), while Uzumaki live knowing their kind are dwindling out of existence and will soon be extinct, without anyone around them caring.

And you can't with a straight face tell a black person in America that their lot in life isn't somehow affected by what blackness has been defined as by everyone other than black people. Not just in America, but globally. Even rich black people face stigma about us born during our ancestor's enslavement. Even rich black people deal with persecution daily. Black immigrants from other countries come to America and see how black people are treated and oftentimes, are treated the same for simply looking the part. So a rich black man getting paid for a problem that hasn't hit him as hard, or at all (yet) is a non-problem.

2:"Y'all just want free money!"

Kill yourself.

3: "Don't you think it's unfair to white people that didn't own slaves to have to pay penance to black people they haven't slighted? Maybe if you could prove their ancestors owned your ancestors at some point..."

The government uses our tax money unfairly all the time. How many little brown kids vaporized by drone fire are you directly responsible (and sorry) for since your tax money was spent toward it? How often do you even think about the places glassed by bombings that you footed the bill for? If you're not missing that money you won't miss the dollar and a few cents removed from your paycheck under some kinda reparations plan.

Also: http://www.wipsociology.org/2019/10...t-how-slavery-still-benefits-white-americans/

You enjoy the benefits that slavery brought your country every day, even if your family didn't contribute to slavery, by way of being white. I endure the aftereffects of a history of slavery everyday, even if none of my family were slaves in the past (they were), by way of being black. If you can still benefit off of the work of slaves in perpetuity and be okay with it, then fairness isn't a big concern for you.

4: "1350."

Kill yourself.

5: "Giving black people money won't fix the problem. Look at all the programs and aid we already have, and look at the state of black society in spite of them."

You're right, we need more than money. I'm not saying drop all of the programs and assistance we already have and give us all Bugattis and PS5s. I'm saying reparations wouldn't be "too much" help cause we're obviously still in need of some. Because you can't erase centuries of being held back, you shouldn't expect black folk to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps in a generation or two.

It also, hasn't been that long since the final survivors of slavery have passed away. I think the last ones died in the 60s or 70s? Meaning there are grandchildren and children of these people living today.

So yeah. White America, you aren't badguys because of the actions of your ancestors. You're only badguys if you don't run your fuckin' pockets.

:3

 

[xi0]

I understand, I wasn't really thinking when I said that. Indigenous people deserve the same reparation too, they've lost too much as well.

They've received it, in a sense. Reservations are income tax-free and they have a degree of autonomy. Also they've had land returned to them etc. None of it is really adequate obviously, and neither were the reparations for the internment camps either probably. The difference in those situations compared to slavery is at least SOMETHING has existed to try to address it in a compensatory way.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 29, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 29, 2023 ---

Feelings are up to recipients but I don't think this works like a conventional case in regards to those. In a normal case you put a money value on damages and once that value is paid for in full the matter is settled and finalized. End of story, feelings be dammed. But.... in this case no one currently alive was a slave. It already takes somewhat exceptional circumstances for someone's grandfather today to have been a slave. No one can actually put a money value on this. And as mentioned before to begin with this is symbolic. There's clearly an economic component here, that's unarguable, but as important, if not more, is the feeling component. You can't really separate the two. So, um, what's the point of reparations if it doesn't help the wounds at play heal? My point is not "don't do reparations" but rather, "how do you make them work/be meaningful?". Without that it's just people with a guilty conscience (but not really, I am pretty sure for most Caucasian people this is history book stuff) trying to feel better about themselves.

Money. If you help improve the material conditions of the ancestor of a slave via paying them for said ancestors unpaid labor and suffering, then it would do a lot IMO.

The government sanctioned this atrocity for centuries, and the Emancipation Proclamation didn't "fix" it, it only gave freed men the freedom to starve. The fact of the matter is this country is not what it is/was without slavery.

 

[M3J]

I don't see that as reparation because aren't indigenous people living in poverty, in general? The genocides alone should make people want to fight for indigenous people getting money from the govt or at least, be able to have their needs met, and that's not counting other atrocities committed against them. How much land was returned to them?

 

[kkck]

IIRC indigenous groups in US have reservations, casinos (I am not clear on what the laws around this are), federal funding for a bunch of stuff (no idea if it's enough, fair or adequate, I remember vaguely reading about this 15 years ago). Beyond reservations I don't know how they could go about returning land to them as that's where everyone else in the US lives.

 

[xi0]

I don't see that as reparation because aren't indigenous people living in poverty, in general? The genocides alone should make people want to fight for indigenous people getting money from the govt or at least, be able to have their needs met, and that's not counting other atrocities committed against them. How much land was returned to them?

It doesn't matter whether you see it as reparations or not, it's literally the definition of it. I'm not arguing whether it was adequate or not, because it probably wasn't. Bringing it up was simply me saying that there is precedent for reparations being given by the government.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2023, Original Post Date: May 1, 2023 ---

IIRC indigenous groups in US have reservations, casinos (I am not clear on what the laws around this are), federal funding for a bunch of stuff (no idea if it's enough, fair or adequate, I remember vaguely reading about this 15 years ago). Beyond reservations I don't know how they could go about returning land to them as that's where everyone else in the US lives.

The perfect example of this is Mount Rushmore. It was made in the Black Hills on stolen land, and the Sioux Nation sued the government in the 1980s and won. But they continue to refuse monetary compensation even today and still want the land itself.

We're talking about a monument here, not where people live. A fugly defacing of a mountain the indigenous tribes there used to worship.

 

[M3J]

It doesn't matter whether you see it as reparations or not, it's literally the definition of it. I'm not arguing whether it was adequate or not, because it probably wasn't. Bringing it up was simply me saying that there is precedent for reparations being given by the government.

Okay, fair enough. From what it seems, the reparations are not even remotely adequate when indigenous people are struggling to survive, despite the government's attempt to "help" them.

 

[kkck]

The perfect example of this is Mount Rushmore. It was made in the Black Hills on stolen land, and the Sioux Nation sued the government in the 1980s and won. But they continue to refuse monetary compensation even today and still want the land itself.

We're talking about a monument here, not where people live. A fugly defacing of a mountain the indigenous tribes there used to worship.

But... isn't literally everything stolen land? Or is there stolen land that they can claim and other stolen land they can't? Or do tribes want specific bits of land?

 

[catagon87]

But... isn't literally everything stolen land? Or is there stolen land that they can claim and other stolen land they can't? Or do tribes want specific bits of land?

I think the wants depends on the specific tribe. Tribes vary heavily. I believe tribes that maintain their customs, and remain relatively indigenous are more likely to have those motivations. I think displacement over the long term has eroded that for other tribes.

 

[ninjabot]

Shoulda finished watching this before linking it. It's fucking nothing, lol.

 

[xi0]

But... isn't literally everything stolen land? Or is there stolen land that they can claim and other stolen land they can't? Or do tribes want specific bits of land?

Pretty much what catagon said. At a certain point there's no one to return land to...

And there's also the notion of what are considered practical demands and what isn't. You can't really undo the USA existing... obviously

--- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2023, Original Post Date: May 2, 2023 ---

Shoulda finished watching this before linking it. It's fucking nothing, lol.

Tucker Carlson Derangement Syndrome man....

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2023 ---

Someone like Gaetz is apparently sponsoring this one.... and yet it has next to no chance of being passed. Love it.

 

[ninjabot]

 

[xi0]

Gotta love all of the conservatives pearl-clutching at the "divisiveness" of reports of the shooter being a white supremacist, only for them to try to take a victory lap when his name was revealed as if it disproves anything about his motives.



Awww.... wow that's awkward

 

[kkck]

I've always wondered what goes on in the mind of a brown person who ideologically is a nazi.

 

[xi0]

I've always wondered what goes on in the mind of a brown person who ideologically is a nazi.

It's honestly not much different from Slavs being nazis either. Just downright bizarre.

--- Double Post Merged, May 9, 2023, Original Post Date: May 9, 2023 ---

The sheer amount of willful ideological cherrypicking that goes on there boggles the mind.

 

[kkck]

can't help but laugh at the comments claiming nazism is a left wing thing..

 

[xi0]

can't help but laugh at the comments claiming nazism is a left wing thing..

Yeah, this got brought up in this very thread in the past. I wonder what excuse they'd have if National Socialism wasn't the original name,

 

[Franckie]

I've always wondered what goes on in the mind of a brown person who ideologically is a nazi.

This might help: https://www.politicalorphans.com/becoming-white-the-weakness-in-democrats-people-of-color-coalition/

As bizarre as it sounds, consider the fact you may have misunderstood their interests to begin with when people appear to be acting against their interests.