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catagon87

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But what does having a deeper historical perspective actually change about the current circumstances? I mean, sure there are people supporting Hamas' rhetoric full-throatily but "siding" with the plight of the average Palestinian is not an endorsement of killing civilians. It's not out of a lack of sympathy for Jewish people either. It's because the Palestinian people are victims of the Israeli government. It's not to excuse the violence perpetrated by Hamas, it's to put it at the doorstep it belongs on.
Did you read the posts I replied to before you? The idea that nobody in Israel is innocent and that killing civilians is fully justified is absurd. An understanding of the history might not change the current plight of the region, but it’s relevant when discussing the politics of it and the main claim is that Israel had this coming, or something. Palestine’s own government failed them many times more than Israel has.


I'll decry religious extremism as much as most people. Both sides are guilty of it though. So I guess I don't see the point in picking which one is more tolerable to my tastes when the situation is so lopsided. Regardless of their stances, that doesn't excuse the material conditions of the average Palestinian. Innocent women and children don't deserve to have 90% of their water sources be toxic because Israel blockades Gaza and doesn't allow materials required to build/maintain/repair water treatment plants. They don't deserve to have 2/3rds of their electricity turned off by the IDF because they only have a single power plant. How are hospitals supposed to treat victims of the war?
In general war crimes are bad.
 
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Newkerzy

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Did you read the posts I replied to before you? The idea that nobody in Israel is innocent and that killing civilians is fully justified is absurd. An understanding of the history might not change the current plight of the region, but it’s relevant when discussing the politics of it and the main claim is that Israel had this coming, or something. Palestine’s own government failed them many times more than Israel has.
I think you and I can agree that both sides of the conflict are just in general, idiots. Neither of them have the moral high ground, and neither deserve to be pitied.
 

catagon87

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im just so concerned why american constantly wants to support israel, i guess i have never been understood for why the country 100% stands behind them in everything, usually.
Historically this was part of a strategic initiative of the USA to stop the spread of Soviet Influence. There wasn't much of an American influence in the region, or in world politics for that matter, back in the late 40's. The USA has, agree or not, the USA's interests in mind and not the specific regions they are leaving an impact on. Post WW2 was a crazy time where a lot of nations other than the USA were all but destroyed and had to rebuild from ground zero. Post WW2 Britain was also in the business of pulling out of the many countries they occupied and Palestine was a disorganized mess. The USA took the opportunity to carve out a long term ally in the region (of the Middle East) by recognizing them (Israel) as a nation, and building them up from zero. Israel is to the Middle East what Korea and Japan are to Asia for the USA.

The TL;DR version of the answer to your question is that Israel offers us a type of ally in the region that is otherwise unavailable.

Oh, and a lot of evangelicals think that Israel is important for their religion so they support it on that metric.
 
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Franckie

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im just so concerned why american constantly wants to support israel, i guess i have never been understood for why the country 100% stands behind them in everything, usually.
US helps Israel via military aid primarily because Israel is the best positioned to keep America's enemies in the Middle East contained. And Israel has fervor support among groups like US evangelicals because they believe that the creation of Israel in 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy that would bring about Christ’s return.
 

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I think you and I can agree that both sides of the conflict are just in general, idiots. Neither of them have the moral high ground, and neither deserve to be pitied.
Yeah, a small difference would be that I wouldn't use the word idiot for Israel. I try to make a strong point that not everyone I disagree with is an idiot. Some are absolutely brilliant and I mostly disagree with their methods which is the case for Israel. I'd say Palestine has been managed worse than your average Walmart by their own government and their ruling parties have constantly been riddled with incompetence that has provided Israel with nothing but opportunities to double down on their aggressive policies toward them. OTOH Israel has spent a good amount of time building up defenses against the methods which Palestine attacks and they know how to strategize (coming out of the holocaust probably has something to do with their level of practicality). They are extremely competent at indulging in self interest. Everyone is talking about how it's "crazy" Israel didn't anticipate his. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Israel knew about, and let the attacks happen, as a way of being able to declare an actual war on Palestine. Love or hate the Israeli Government, it's not incompetence that plagues them. I mean, shit, they very likely wrote stuxnet.
 

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im just so concerned why american constantly wants to support israel, i guess i have never been understood for why the country 100% stands behind them in everything, usually.
Birds of feather flock together i guess but it goes beyond that, I don't really buy the prophecy wack theories, Zionists control USA is the only plausible reason in my eyes, You can see all USA presidents being pro Zionists, You can see how people lose their jobs for sticking to the truth and criticizing the root of all violence in this war ( Israel ). It just proves that Israel has total control over the US.
 

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Did you read the posts I replied to before you? The idea that nobody in Israel is innocent and that killing civilians is fully justified is absurd. An understanding of the history might not change the current plight of the region, but it’s relevant when discussing the politics of it and the main claim is that Israel had this coming, or something. Palestine’s own government failed them many times more than Israel has.
Palestine's own government is in the shape it is in part due to Israel's policies. The government there barely has any control over anything anyway and zero sovereignty. Plus, fucking Netanyahu is on record saying he wants Hamas in control of Gaza, and the precise reason is because Fatah is in control of the West Bank. As long as the people are divided, it's easier for them to remain conquered.

Palestine's own government failing their people is by design and is helped along because they have zero international support and are afforded next to nothing.

In general war crimes are bad.
Correct. But one side gets all the coverage of said war crimes and the others nothing. Or even worse, they're somehow justified.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I think you and I can agree that both sides of the conflict are just in general, idiots. Neither of them have the moral high ground, and neither deserve to be pitied.
How exactly can you say something like this after seeing how Palestinians live on a daily basis? The disproportionate violence? The seizing of land for the sake of "military exercises"?
--- Double Post Merged, ---

Israel's policy towards the Palestinians is collective punishment. Collective punishment is a war crime.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

I mean, I don't say this to put any words in people's mouths here, but the discourse surrounding this really amounts to some version of "terrorism is bad, and Palestinian geopolitics are a mess" as some sort of method to handwave Israel's actions. I just don't get what point is being made that actually addresses a resolution of the conflict at all.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

Birds of feather flock together i guess but it goes beyond that, I don't really buy the prophecy wack theories, Zionists control USA is the only plausible reason in my eyes, You can see all USA presidents being pro Zionists, You can see how people lose their jobs for sticking to the truth and criticizing the root of all violence in this war ( Israel ). It just proves that Israel has total control over the US.
It has very little to do with Zionism and everything to do with Israel's location and their ability to be a destabilizing force in the region when it's needed.

Peace in that area and any sort of broader coalition of MENA or Arabic countries doesn't really serve American interests, so Israel is the perfect obstacle to that.
 

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How exactly can you say something like this after seeing how Palestinians live on a daily basis? The disproportionate violence? The seizing of land for the sake of "military exercises"?
Let me just say that I have absolutely no faith in any sort of peace process in the Middle East, and that I see nothing but a vicious cycle of hate that both sides have no intention of getting out of, and that to me, makes both of them as nothing less than animals.
 

xi0

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So you have the leader of the free world running this kind of interference....
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Let me just say that I have absolutely no faith in any sort of peace process in the Middle East, and that I see nothing but a vicious cycle of hate that both sides have no intention of getting out of, and that to me, makes both of them as nothing less than animals.
I think that's some pretty loaded language you're using there. There's people living there that are no different than people living in other parts of the world. They just had the misfortune of being born into a place that has centuries of history in conflict from religious and geopolitical turmoil.

It's not really a matter of having confidence in the parties to get something done or not, it's that one side holds the vast majority of the cards and faces zero actual pressure to relent.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

@ninjabot wth is your boy doing?

 

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It's not really a matter of having confidence in the parties to get something done or not, it's that one side holds the vast majority of the cards and faces zero actual pressure to relent.
I think this has been kind of the point of the ongoing debate regarding Palestine’s policies. They haven’t been very smart about using the cards THEY have, and squandered them multiple times. Does Israel have an unfairly loaded deck of cards? Yes. But smart diplomacy/politics is all about using whatever resources you have wisely to achieve your objective. It might be easy to say, but it’s true.

Let me say this as someone who was born into a diplomat’s family that supports the Palestinians: Even we’re sick of the incompetence shown by the Palestinian politicians and their inability to get their shit straight.
 

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I’m not an Israel supporter though. Israelis are hardly even supporters of their own government. I’m a “hey, killing innocent people is fucked up” supporter. As for it being a made up accusation, you can think what you want. I don’t really care.

Hamas is fucking stupid. Israel’s government is abhorrent. Keyboard warriors who call what happened over the weekend “resistance fighting” should go touch grass.
If you say so. More often than not, I've seen Israel supporters be totally wrong and easily believe bullshit from that side, like Hamas beheading babies and whantot when that's one of the many lies to make Hamas and Palestine look bad.

Nothing about Israel supporters in NYC chanting death to Palestine or Israeli figureheads basically calling for another Nakba? Promising violence against Palestine?

im just so concerned why american constantly wants to support israel, i guess i have never been understood for why the country 100% stands behind them in everything, usually.
America supports Israel out of their own self-interest. There's no other reason why, and that's why it turns a blind eye towards Israel doing horrible things and being the actual terrorists. They claim speaking against Israel is anti-Semitic, but majority of these right wingers are the same ones that support or are okay with anything anti-Semitic happening on their own land. Synagogues that have been attacked in the USA were mostly, if not solely, by white right. And not surprisingly, I've seen Palestinians jump in to help the Jewish communities affected by the violence.
 

xi0

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....lol
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I think this has been kind of the point of the ongoing debate regarding Palestine’s policies. They haven’t been very smart about using the cards THEY have, and squandered them multiple times. Does Israel have an unfairly loaded deck of cards? Yes. But smart diplomacy/politics is all about using whatever resources you have wisely to achieve your objective. It might be easy to say, but it’s true.

Let me say this as someone who was born into a diplomat’s family that supports the Palestinians: Even we’re sick of the incompetence shown by the Palestinian politicians and their inability to get their shit straight.
What cards do they have though?
 

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@xi0: Okayokayokayokay.

Okay.

In his defense.

Destiny has always jumped at a chance to call out Leftists for making the left look bad. And that's what Hamasanabi has been doing in his recent streams. And Hasan has gradually started to sound more Tankie-esque if you've been watching his streams with Ethan Klein where he was doing really bad trying to explain how Socialism would work in America. You know the meme about reeducation camps? Hasan was super close to outright saying it. Instead, he evaded answering directly. It was like he had Sage Mode, Ultra Instinct, and Kamui all at once. Couldn't pin him down.

It ain't just him either. Lots of people on the left have been supporting Hamas online on some "colonizers bring this on themselves" or "This is what revolution looks like" type beat. You don't want kids that think a socialist revolution is the way to save the country to get the idea that this is how it's supposed to go down. I know it's not as simple as one side is the badguy and one is the goodguy. But I'm very decidedly, in this instance, on the side of Israel thanks to the little bit I know about the recent events.

You could say it's a pretty spicy photoshop, and I agree. There's a less inflammatory way of telling him to "do better".
 

catagon87

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If you say so. More often than not, I've seen Israel supporters be totally wrong and easily believe bullshit from that side, like Hamas beheading babies and whantot when that's one of the many lies to make Hamas and Palestine look bad.

Nothing about Israel supporters in NYC chanting death to Palestine or Israeli figureheads basically calling for another Nakba? Promising violence against Palestine?
I call it like I see it. I've also said it's incredibly fucked up for Israel to blockade that area, and that I wouldn't be surprised if Israel knew about the attack and let it happen to have a reason to go to war with Hamas. The interesting thing about life is that two sides of an issue can both be wrong. It's not really hard to believe Hamas would behead babies. There's plenty of videos online of them doing horrible things and beheadings are kind of the Shariah go-to for dealing with a lot of problems.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Palestine's own government is in the shape it is in part due to Israel's policies. The government there barely has any control over anything anyway and zero sovereignty. Plus, fucking Netanyahu is on record saying he wants Hamas in control of Gaza, and the precise reason is because Fatah is in control of the West Bank. As long as the people are divided, it's easier for them to remain conquered.

Palestine's own government failing their people is by design and is helped along because they have zero international support and are afforded next to nothing.
Netanyahu is many things but he's not an idiot (not really implying you said he was or wasn't, just speaking). He's just a first-world dictator and he comes from a military background. He's essentially Jewish Putin. He's basically just playing chicken with them to get the authorizations and backings he needs to permanently "solve the problem." We're not in any form of disagreement over Palestine's situation or Israel's government. I am not in agreement that Palestine is somehow completely innocent in everything and hasn't had opportunities to avoid their situation. Most of Palestine's issues from my perspective are rooted in their dealings with the British a century ago. They got a shit deal and trusted a nation that was known to be unworthy of trust and as a result were handed off to the UN (who were extremely sympathetic to the plight of the Jews at the time) to figure things out. It was all downhill from the moment they divided up the land.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

Correct. But one side gets all the coverage of said war crimes and the others nothing. Or even worse, they're somehow justified.
This is something I disagree with. Everyone acts like it's been unilateral in representation but honestly before last weekend if I were to say I'm pro-Israel (not saying I am, just an example) I'd probably get my ass fired at work and ostracized on social media. The crimes are well documented on both sides including massacres of various Palestinian villages, which have had documentaries made about them. It probably somewhat depends on where you live, but I've typically lived in liberal cities (Boston, Austin, Denver) where the loudest voice has always been for Palestine. I mean, to me, a lot of the opinions here read exactly like the low-depth redditor opinion on the issue. Part of the issue is Israel is a recognized as a full member of the UN with a history there so I would say sure, on a UN level, that Israel gets a lot of bias, but that's not what I see in the day to day. Purely anecdotal so take it for what you will. I think it's similar to the overt ignorance to the plight of the Uyghurs who also have nobody to really represent them at the upper levels of the world. Everyone knows shit sucks for them, and most are sympathetic and think China is horribly fucked up for their treatment of the Uyghurs, but it gets ignored at the level where it really matters.
 

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It has very little to do with Zionism and everything to do with Israel's location and their ability to be a destabilizing force in the region when it's needed.

Peace in that area and any sort of broader coalition of MENA or Arabic countries doesn't really serve American interests, so Israel is the perfect obstacle to that.
Beside the weaponry showcase market against the victims of all Middle east. I don't see how it has anything to benefit America, The heavy influence of Zionism in the US amongst the people, the measures they take to protect Israel and justify war crimes and silence criticism and call everything anti semitic, the propaganda they do to spin the narrative, the call for genocides, etc. Its like dealing with two Israels. Do not you think its a bit too much?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I also want to say this, I always had sympathy towards the rightwings in the US, I actually had many friends who are conservatives and i found them supporting a genocide and cheering for it too. You have no idea how i see them differently now. Just another terrorist group. Liberals allowed them to attack Palestinians because it benefits Israel and they are going full racism mode. I never saw that coming. Really fucked up people, I don't know from where they get this hate from. I'm not saying all of them are bad but its hard to look at them the sameway like before.
 
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M3J

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I call it like I see it. I've also said it's incredibly fucked up for Israel to blockade that area, and that I wouldn't be surprised if Israel knew about the attack and let it happen to have a reason to go to war with Hamas. The interesting thing about life is that two sides of an issue can both be wrong. It's not really hard to believe Hamas would behead babies. There's plenty of videos online of them doing horrible things and beheadings are kind of the Shariah go-to for dealing with a lot of problems.
Kinda doubt that, but anyways.


Israel has continuously been lying about Hamas's actions, and xi0 posted a tweet where the White House admitted Biden did not see any video, but he took Netanyahu's word. Or his spokesman if you wanna nitpick.

I mean, there's no reason to believe Hamas would behead babies, that seems to be more of propaganda from Israel to make you think that. Israel however seems to be just as violent, if not more. Plenty of videos of them shooting innocent people and committing war crimes, but that gets swept under the rug.
 

xi0

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@xi0: Okayokayokayokay.

Okay.

In his defense.

Destiny has always jumped at a chance to call out Leftists for making the left look bad. And that's what Hamasanabi has been doing in his recent streams. And Hasan has gradually started to sound more Tankie-esque if you've been watching his streams with Ethan Klein where he was doing really bad trying to explain how Socialism would work in America. You know the meme about reeducation camps? Hasan was super close to outright saying it. Instead, he evaded answering directly. It was like he had Sage Mode, Ultra Instinct, and Kamui all at once. Couldn't pin him down.

It ain't just him either. Lots of people on the left have been supporting Hamas online on some "colonizers bring this on themselves" or "This is what revolution looks like" type beat. You don't want kids that think a socialist revolution is the way to save the country to get the idea that this is how it's supposed to go down. I know it's not as simple as one side is the badguy and one is the goodguy. But I'm very decidedly, in this instance, on the side of Israel thanks to the little bit I know about the recent events.

You could say it's a pretty spicy photoshop, and I agree. There's a less inflammatory way of telling him to "do better".
I haven't watched much of him since the attack happened but I haven't seen anything remotely pro-Hamas honestly. Just more about the conditions Gazans live in...

I saw that tweet and it reminded me of him and his fan's BS crybullying over the cuban thing. How exactly is that more racist than something like that? lol idk
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

This is something I disagree with. Everyone acts like it's been unilateral in representation but honestly before last weekend if I were to say I'm pro-Israel (not saying I am, just an example) I'd probably get my ass fired at work and ostracized on social media. The crimes are well documented on both sides including massacres of various Palestinian villages, which have had documentaries made about them. It probably somewhat depends on where you live, but I've typically lived in liberal cities (Boston, Austin, Denver) where the loudest voice has always been for Palestine. I mean, to me, a lot of the opinions here read exactly like the low-depth redditor opinion on the issue. Part of the issue is Israel is a recognized as a full member of the UN with a history there so I would say sure, on a UN level, that Israel gets a lot of bias, but that's not what I see in the day to day. Purely anecdotal so take it for what you will. I think it's similar to the overt ignorance to the plight of the Uyghurs who also have nobody to really represent them at the upper levels of the world. Everyone knows shit sucks for them, and most are sympathetic and think China is horribly fucked up for their treatment of the Uyghurs, but it gets ignored at the level where it really matters.
I'm not necessarily talking about your daily life, like you said, it depends on where you live. But the general media portrayal is insanely slanted towards Israel. Some outlets will cover the Palestinian plight but they do zero examination of the Israeli government's role in it. Honestly, I've watched a few places that do dare to talk about it and the difference in coverage between Gaza and something like a natural disaster is extremely minute IMO.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

Beside the weaponry showcase market against the victims of all Middle east. I don't see how it has anything to benefit America, The heavy influence of Zionism in the US amongst the people, the measures they take to protect Israel and justify war crimes and silence criticism and call everything anti semitic, the propaganda they do to spin the narrative, the call for genocides, etc. Its like dealing with two Israels. Do not you think its a bit too much?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I also want to say this, I always had sympathy towards the rightwings in the US, I actually had many friends who are conservatives and i found them supporting a genocide and cheering for it too. You have no idea how i see them differently now. Just another terrorist group. Liberals allowed them to attack Palestinians because it benefits Israel and they are going full racism mode. I never saw that coming. Really fucked up people, I don't know from where they get this hate from. I'm not saying all of them are bad but its hard to look at them the sameway like before.
Religious fundamentalists are really the only ones that believe in Zionism as a doctrine (and mostly for eschatological reasons). The rest (and the majority) support Israel because it's mostly beneficial to US interests. There really is no reason to look beyond surface level there IMO.

Why exactly did you have sympathy for rightwingers here? They've always held the same position when it comes to Israel, unless we're talking about less mainstream and further right groups.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

I know it's not as simple as one side is the badguy and one is the goodguy. But I'm very decidedly, in this instance, on the side of Israel thanks to the little bit I know about the recent events.
Do you care to expand why that is btw? You usually have good takes so I'm curious
--- Double Post Merged, ---



Totally just and proportionate response...
 

xi0

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Seems the pictures were a thing after all.
Not quite. It's splitting hairs but the implication wasn't that there was no evidence of slain children, just the claims about them being decapitated.

Not that I understand the distinction ultimately...
 

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@xi0: I'll give a better explanation when I get off of work. Can't really explain it well when I should be having my lunch break. I will say it basically boils down to with the little understanding I have of Palestine/Israel relations (as in like most Americans nothing that happens outside of America really hits my radar unless it's especially heinous) I am relegated to reacting to the media takes I have on hand and you know very well everything out there is biased in Israel's favor, so for better or worse that's coloring my perspective. I admit that.

That said I've been viewing it as Hamas vs Israel, not Palestine vs Israel which makes it a no brainer choice for me. I can't abide terrorism... and it seems upon a Google check about half the folks in Gaza support Hamas and 42 percent in the West Bank support them.

I doubt it's as simple as "they're evil, that's why". I'm sure they're supporting impoverished Palestinian people in some way and so they don't view then as terrorists, but freedom fighters. But their actions don't reflect that, and there's no media coverage to correct my interpretation. Just the shittiest people on my own political side cheering on the murder of people. It makes me sad.

It probably would've been smarter to say "I haven't chosen a side yet but everything I've seen has lead me to be pro Israel and anti Hamas" instead of saying decidedly pro Israel.

Or at least it was decided until the recent 24 hr Trail of Tears they announced recently.

Well, I guess I explained myself more clearly than I thought I could with a short amount of time.
 
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