American Politics

[Raven]

Amusing how people care about unconfirmed claims of 40 dead babies and actually want it to be true to justify the killings of Palestinians meanwhile they don’t give a fuck about 400+ babies killed in Gaza by very recent Israeli bombings

Also you see how easily Palestinians can prove the death of their babies in real time footage while israelis struggle to get an absolute evidence of their claims, They shared yesterday an iffy weird picture and i fail to see how that prove anything really yet people running wild with it already

Why exactly did you have sympathy for rightwingers here? They've always held the same position when it comes to Israel, unless we're talking about less mainstream and further right groups.

Because they have many insecurities and I don’t want to emphasize on that now because it can be way off topic.

Im talking about average people without strong political involvements, it turn out that they can be as radical as the mainstream or even worse

 

[shionoro]

Amusing how people care about unconfirmed claims of 40 dead babies and actually want it to be true to justify the killings of Palestinians meanwhile they don’t give a fuck about 400+ babies killed in Gaza by very recent Israeli bombings

Also you see how easily Palestinians can prove the death of their babies in real time footage while israelis struggle to get an absolute evidence of their claims, They shared yesterday an iffy weird picture and i fail to see how that prove anything really yet people running wild with it already



Because they have many insecurities and I don’t want to emphasize on that now because it can be way off topic.

Im talking about average people without strong political involvements, it turn out that they can be as radical as the mainstream or even worse

But it is true that the Hamas indiscriminately attacked people including infants and killed them. They went from house to house and murdered people.

Israel releases images of slain children to rally support after Hamas attack | Reuters

The video shown to NATO, apparently taken from a mix of social media published by Hamas and unidentified phone videos, showed the bodies of scores of dead civilians, as well as the body of an Israeli soldier in uniform with his head missing.

There were no images to suggest militants had beheaded babies -- a particularly explosive accusation that first emerged in Israel's media and initially confirmed by Israeli officials.

U.S. President Joseph Biden had suggested on Wednesday that he had seen images of children beheaded by militants. The White House later clarified that U.S. officials had not seen any evidence of this.

Netanyahu has not repeated a claim by his office earlier this week that Hamas had indeed cut off the heads of children, nor did Gallant repeat that accusation to NATO ministers.

But medics, international human rights organisations and journalists have documented that militants killed women, children and the elderly as well as young men and soldiers in their rampage.

That is not a lie. And whether these infants were beheaded or not, there are more than enough videos of insane levels of indiscriminate aggression. That does not mean that Israel is right to blockade Gaza and it does not wash away any crimes the Israelis have committed, but not admitting the Hamas are fascist murderers who went on a killing spree that has no justification is morally reprehensible.

Trying to downplay that attack is just as vile as claiming that all dead Palestinians are terrorists.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2023, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2023 ---

I merely pointed out that American/western foreign policy had a role in the 9/11 attacks and I drew a parallel between that and the rise of extremist groups in Israel as a result of Israel's policy towards non-Jews. I find it a bit puzzling why someone would evoke a historical basis for this discussion and but seemingly not understand that.

Tho one has to be really careful here. Certainly US policy had a role in making the US a target for terrorists. However, said terrorists can hardly be seen as fighting against imperialism. They are opressors themselves and use the US to make their reign more legitimate.

In this current conflict, Hamas are not fighting for the cause of a free Palestine. Hamas oppress Palestinians, Hamas kill Palestinians are are a fascist government in that region. Their aim is not a peace process and they chose to attack in the most brutal way they could imagine to topple the peace process between israel and other middle eastern states.
Israel is at fault for its crimes (especially in the west bank) and the Gaza blockade is a crime, however, that current Hamas attack is an act of terrorism, just like 9/11, that has no basis in a freedom fight and its aim is not furthering the cause of a free Palestine. Just like 9/11's aim was certainly not to lead to a more peaceful middle east. The aim was murdering innocentsto further the terrorist group's own power.

 

[xi0]

Tho one has to be really careful here. Certainly US policy had a role in making the US a target for terrorists. However, said terrorists can hardly be seen as fighting against imperialism. They are opressors themselves and use the US to make their reign more legitimate.

They certainly are though? Their motivations and what they do with any sort of gained power or influence doesn't completely change what their aims are.

In this current conflict, Hamas are not fighting for the cause of a free Palestine. Hamas oppress Palestinians, Hamas kill Palestinians are are a fascist government in that region. Their aim is not a peace process and they chose to attack in the most brutal way they could imagine to topple the peace process between israel and other middle eastern states.
Israel is at fault for its crimes (especially in the west bank) and the Gaza blockade is a crime, however, that current Hamas attack is an act of terrorism, just like 9/11, that has no basis in a freedom fight and its aim is not furthering the cause of a free Palestine. Just like 9/11's aim was certainly not to lead to a more peaceful middle east. The aim was murdering innocentsto further the terrorist group's own power.

The argument in this thread (at least on my end) isn't about the legitimacy of Hamas and it's actions. It's about the legitimacy of Palestine. Conflation of the two is convenient and also somewhat understandable if your media literacy is kneecapped by depending on sources in the west. It's used as an excuse for what the IDF has done and is doing this very moment. Israel has visited incredible and disproportionate cruelty upon Palestinians. Hamas could cease to exist tomorrow and that would continue to be true.

Admittedly, it doesn't feel great to invoke whataboutisms when it comes to Hamas' attack but this topic is only ever in the forefront of people's minds when things like this happen.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2023, Original Post Date: Oct 14, 2023 ---

Spoiler: Violent Content

This is the kind of thing Israeli citizens are conscripted into the military to watch over. The settlers in the West Bank and anyone who permits this is are criminals, and deserve far worse than they get. This is what US tax dollars and donations goes towards funding, it's not just useful systems like Iron Dome and similar countermeasures to protect citizens. It funds the perpetuation of decades of violence and illegal dispossession in the West Bank.

 

[shionoro]

They certainly are though? Their motivations and what they do with any sort of gained power or influence doesn't completely change what their aims are.

It does influence that. The goal of Al Quaida was never to stop US imperialism. Al Quaida profits from that, so why would they? They are a crime organization masquerading as an anti imperialist group. They are no more anti imperialist than Iran or Northkorea are just because it makes sense for them to paint america as the big devil in their propaganda.

The argument in this thread (at least on my end) isn't about the legitimacy of Hamas and it's actions. It's about the legitimacy of Palestine. Conflation of the two is convenient and also somewhat understandable if your media literacy is kneecapped by depending on sources in the west. It's used as an excuse for what the IDF has done and is doing this very moment. Israel has visited incredible and disproportionate cruelty upon Palestinians. Hamas could cease to exist tomorrow and that would continue to be true.

Admittedly, it doesn't feel great to invoke whataboutisms when it comes to Hamas' attack but this topic is only ever in the forefront of people's minds when things like this happen.

That is exactly my point. The legitimacy of palestine is true. The legitimacy of the palestinian freedom movement is also true. Opression of Israel against Palestine is true.
However, that Hamas attack had nothing to do with that freedom movement and thus the idea that Israel created that attack does not really ring true here. Israel created support for the Hamas by its actions of opression, I think that can be said.
But the Hamas attack happened because Israel was about to negotiate peace with saudi arabia and other arab states, not because israeli aggression against the gaza strip has got significantly worse or because people in palestine called for these kinds of attacks.

And that is important to keep note of. This terror attack should not be seen as part of the legitimate palestinian freedom movement. The reason for that attack was not because Hamas thought this might ease oppression against Palestinians.

 

[ninjabot]

The argument in this thread (at least on my end) isn't about the legitimacy of Hamas and it's actions. It's about the legitimacy of Palestine. Conflation of the two is convenient and also somewhat understandable if your media literacy is kneecapped by depending on sources in the west

Yeah, this is what I meant with my reply. Suppose you're not educated on the history of Israel or Palestine and the conflict in general. In that case, you're stuck relying on the deluge of outpouring support for Israel, the disavowal of Hamas, and the opinions of politicians.

From what I've seen recently though it's relieving me of my naivete. I guess I could've waited a bit longer before sharing my opinion because all of the things needed to give me pause about my support of Israel appeared on the news the following day.



See? This is the stuff I've got to work with when it comes to how the events taking place are being talked about. It's like no one has an incentive to check their biases at the door.

Also apparently a tweet was out about 3 convoys fleeing to southern Gaza being bombed by Israel and resulting in the death of 70 people just got deleted. So... I'm just gonna stop picking any side at all because it's reached a point of absurdity. Lies and embellishments galore. Rationalizing of heinous acts on both sides. Hidden agendas on both sides. And me without the info to really speak with any authority whatsoever outside of "wow, this is bad. They're both doing bad."

So, I won't. I'm just gonna stop saying anything at all.

 

[xi0]

However, that Hamas attack had nothing to do with that freedom movement and thus the idea that Israel created that attack does not really ring true here. Israel created support for the Hamas by its actions of opression, I think that can be said.
But the Hamas attack happened because Israel was about to negotiate peace with saudi arabia and other arab states, not because israeli aggression against the gaza strip has got significantly worse or because people in palestine called for these kinds of attacks.

And that is important to keep note of. This terror attack should not be seen as part of the legitimate palestinian freedom movement. The reason for that attack was not because Hamas thought this might ease oppression against Palestinians.

It does have something to do with that freedom movement whether anyone wants it or not, because it's being used as an excuse to delegitimize it and kill more Palestinians. And the leader of the free world has been caught lying on video talking about it. Hamas is practically endorsed by Netanyahu and the far-right, and judging by these latest actions it's obvious to see why. It has never been more clear what they desire, and yet the vast majority of nations are still too silent about it and the majority of media still prefer to drown the coverage in false equivalencies. It's sickening.

So, I won't. I'm just gonna stop saying anything at all.

Don't take this the wrong way and I'm not going to grandstand and say how you should think, but isn't this kind of lazy? I guess I get it given the nature of this kind of thing, but damn, it's just too disheartening to see the insane rhetoric that gets spewed and accepted in many circles.

 

[ninjabot]

Don't take this the wrong way and I'm not going to grandstand and say how you should think, but isn't this kind of lazy? I guess I get it given the nature of this kind of thing, but damn, it's just too disheartening to see the insane rhetoric that gets spewed and accepted in many circles.

Don't get me wrong, I won't stop looking for answers and making my opinion based on what the facts represent. I'm saying I'm gonna stop speaking on things I'm not equipped to speak on when I can't even attest to what the facts are. You mentioned I have good takes usually. It's cause I try to only make positive assertions about things I think I can back up. And if not back up, at least make a strong argument for what leads me to believe whatever it is I'm arguing for.

In this scenario, I can't speak any further than "both sides are doing bad things." Doesn't sound super productive, does it?

 

[xi0]

I wonder how many headlines a report like this will get?

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Oct 15, 2023 ---

Don't get me wrong, I won't stop looking for answers and making my opinion based on what the facts represent. I'm saying I'm gonna stop speaking on things I'm not equipped to speak on when I can't even attest to what the facts are. You mentioned I have good takes usually. It's cause I try to only make positive assertions about things I think I can back up. And if not back up, at least make a strong argument for what leads me to believe whatever it is I'm arguing for.

In this scenario, I can't speak any further than "both sides are doing bad things." Doesn't sound super productive, does it?

Yeah, fair enough. Guess it was more surprising to me that you were less informed than you are on other things idk. Not sure what my point is really.

The "both sides" part of it is damaging to me IMO, idk.... but we're just two jackoffs online so I won't pretend it matters much lol

 

[shionoro]

It does have something to do with that freedom movement whether anyone wants it or not, because it's being used as an excuse to delegitimize it and kill more Palestinians. And the leader of the free world has been caught lying on video talking about it. Hamas is practically endorsed by Netanyahu and the far-right, and judging by these latest actions it's obvious to see why. It has never been more clear what they desire, and yet the vast majority of nations are still too silent about it and the majority of media still prefer to drown the coverage in false equivalencies. It's sickening.

But you also have to see that this is exactly what Hamas wants. Hamas wants Israel to go in and kill Paelstinians. That is why Hamas tellds Palestinians not to flee.

Two things can be true at the same time. Hamas is a fascist terrororganization that opresses Palestine and also the Israeli government has little regard for Palestinian lives and would really like if a lot of the people who flee would not return.

But the issue we talked about was whether Israel's settling policy is to blame for this particular attack. And I think that is a very flawed and dangerous point. Israel is responsible for opressing Palestinians and using violence against them and that is part of the reason (tho not the only part) why Hamas reigns Gaza.
However, the latest attack did not happen for some Israeli action against Palestine in particular, it is not fit to further the freedom of Palestine and thus it should not be framed as some kind of retaliation.
It can be retaliation if Israeli soldiers get attacked. Certainly, it can hardly be seen as retaliation to attack a random rave or kibbuz places in which fairly liberal people (including muslims in case of the rave) hang out that have no connection to settlement policy or the military.

Israel is solely responsible for its settlement policy or its current blockade of gaza.
Hamas is solely reponsible for these terrorist attacks and for its oppression of the palestinians.

Both are true at the same time and effect and cause should not be used to create misleading framings.

 

[ninjabot]

Yeah, fair enough. Guess it was more surprising to me that you were less informed than you are on other things idk. Not sure what my point is really.

I get it. As I look back at my replies it doesn't look like it's someone who hadn't thought his positions through. It looks like someone who got caught choosing the wrong side and is using his lack of education as a scapegoat so he doesn't lose all the brownie points he gained up to this point. But trust me when I say it's not that. It was literally just me seeing how twitchpol/youtubepol/twitter/celebs were reacting to what started as an attack by a terrorist group and making a snap judgement afterwards.

The "both sides" part of it is damaging to me IMO, idk.... but we're just two jackoffs online so I won't pretend it matters much lol

Because it's reductive as fuck, I know. It implies both Palestine and Israel are on equal footing in capabilities and thus, equal footing in moral judgment. It ignores that one side did this one thing before the other side did their thing. And when the other side retaliated, they retaliated with far, far, far too much effort to consider it justified. And that one side gets much more moral consideration thanks to them being lighter skinned, a victim of a holocaust and thus seen as the underdog globally surprisingly, being a much larger 1st world country pretty much, having the religious right on their side in America due to what the bible says about Israel and what have you... so they look like the objective bad guys because their opponents are a bunch of poor, uneducated brown kids throwing rocks at tanks (hyperbole).

 

[Newkerzy]

Because it's reductive as fuck, I know. It implies both Palestine and Israel are on equal footing in capabilities and thus, equal footing in moral judgment. It ignores that one side did this one thing before the other side did their thing. And when the other side retaliated, they retaliated with far, far, far too much effort to consider it justified. And that one side gets much more moral consideration thanks to them being lighter skinned, a victim of a holocaust and thus seen as the underdog globally surprisingly, being a much larger 1st world country pretty much, having the religious right on their side in America due to what the bible says about Israel and what have you... so they look like the objective bad guys because their opponents are a bunch of poor, uneducated brown kids throwing rocks at tanks (hyperbole).

I don’t think saying ”both sides are bad” are reductive at all when that’s actually a fact. Here’s why I see it that way: Do you really wanna know why even Palestine’s supporters are lukewarm towards them? It’s because they’re just as fucking corrupt as any other middle east countries. No one wants to support a decrepit government riddled with corrupt officials like Afghanistan pre-Taliban takeover. This isn’t a well-known fact, but it’s something that people in diplomatic circles know fully well than anybody else. And we know that Israel is also corrupt as hell as long as Netanyahu’s in charge.

Palestine has the added pressure of their relationship with Israel, so yeah, I can see why they haven’t made inroads towards peace. If the Palestinians want peace, their first step is establishing a credible and competent government, build trust with established connections, then keep building off of that from there.

 

[xi0]

But you also have to see that this is exactly what Hamas wants. Hamas wants Israel to go in and kill Paelstinians. That is why Hamas tellds Palestinians not to flee.

Two things can be true at the same time. Hamas is a fascist terrororganization that opresses Palestine and also the Israeli government has little regard for Palestinian lives and would really like if a lot of the people who flee would not return.

But the issue we talked about was whether Israel's settling policy is to blame for this particular attack. And I think that is a very flawed and dangerous point. Israel is responsible for opressing Palestinians and using violence against them and that is part of the reason (tho not the only part) why Hamas reigns Gaza.
However, the latest attack did not happen for some Israeli action against Palestine in particular, it is not fit to further the freedom of Palestine and thus it should not be framed as some kind of retaliation.
It can be retaliation if Israeli soldiers get attacked. Certainly, it can hardly be seen as retaliation to attack a random rave or kibbuz places in which fairly liberal people (including muslims in case of the rave) hang out that have no connection to settlement policy or the military.

Israel is solely responsible for its settlement policy or its current blockade of gaza.
Hamas is solely reponsible for these terrorist attacks and for its oppression of the palestinians.

Both are true at the same time and effect and cause should not be used to create misleading framings.

Flee what? There's nowhere to flee to. I don't think Palestinians want to flee anything in the first place, as long as they're not living in a warzone.

I'm really not understanding what point you think you're making regarding Hamas and whether the attack can be seen as retaliatory or not. Israel is persistently involved in collective punishment by bombing Gaza, does it matter to most of the world whether that should be described as retaliatory?

I'm also not understanding the point of bringing up groups oppressing Palestinians from within. How is that relevant to what Israel is doing to them? There is no universe in which they are on equal footing.

I'll repeat it again - Hamas could cease to exist tomorrow and it would change nothing about this situation.

What misleading framings are being done here? A handful of tankies making excuses for Hamas, or the entirety of the western world thinking Israel is justified in killing thousands of people and displacing a million more?

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Oct 15, 2023 ---

If the Palestinians want peace, their first step is establishing a credible and competent government, build trust with established connections, then keep building off of that from there.

I just don't see why anyone can examine this situation and think the Palestinians have anything close to this level of self-determination, I'm sorry...

 

[Newkerzy]

I just don't see why anyone can examine this situation and think the Palestinians have anything close to this level of self-determination, I'm sorry...

Well, therein lies the problem. It’s the fact that nobody there, neither Israel nor the Palestinians care about peace at all at this point. All they care about is eradicating the other off this godforsaken Earth.

 

[xi0]

Well, therein lies the problem. It’s the fact that nobody there, neither Israel nor the Palestinians care about peace at all at this point. All they care about is eradicating the other off this godforsaken Earth.

One side has the means to do this and has been slowly inching closer to achieving this. One side has the support of the majority of powerful nations.

You only ever make peace with your enemies. Israel hasn't held up their end of the bargain given the position they've been afforded.

 

[Newkerzy]

One side has the means to do this and has been slowly inching closer to achieving this. One side has the support of the majority of powerful nations.

You only ever make peace with your enemies. Israel hasn't held up their end of the bargain given the position they've been afforded.

Pretty much. All the Palestine government have ever done is shoot themselves in the foot. And that just makes Israel’s already strong position even stronger. And that just gives Israel carte blanche to do whatever they want.

 

[Sanity Check]

Afghanistan Is Building Asia's Largest Artificial River In The Desert


This is really cool

 

[ninjabot]

I don’t think saying ”both sides are bad” are reductive at all when that’s actually a fact. Here’s why I see it that way: Do you really wanna know why even Palestine’s supporters are lukewarm towards them? It’s because they’re just as fucking corrupt as any other middle east countries. No one wants to support a decrepit government riddled with corrupt officials like Afghanistan pre-Taliban takeover. This isn’t a well-known fact, but it’s something that people in diplomatic circles know fully well than anybody else. And we know that Israel is also corrupt as hell as long as Netanyahu’s in charge.

Then I'll correct my statement with "ONLY saying both sides are bad is reductive", because people can rationalize bad things happening to bad people to a staggering degree (just look at what people are saying about the current events) without offering any productive criticism.

It's like when we bring up police brutality and Republicans say "Yeah, well maybe you blacks should just stop committing crime? You ever think about THAT!?"

Isn't that right @Sanity Check?

This response implies that police brutality is justified because the black men they're brutalizing are criminals, and if they don't want to be murdered by cops then they should just stop committing crimes. As if petty crime is worthy of execution.

Palestine has the added pressure of their relationship with Israel, so yeah, I can see why they haven’t made inroads towards peace. If the Palestinians want peace, their first step is establishing a credible and competent government, build trust with established connections, then keep building off of that from there.

"I don't think black people are inherently bad. I think it's the culture. I think if black people want to put an end to police brutality what they should first do is fix their culture, then we can talk about police reform from there."

Ugh. I don't even disagree with you, I'm just saying when someone's looking for an answer to how we stop what's happening right now and you give an answer that requires you to reverse time so that it doesn't get to this point yet because of preparation to avoid it, it's an unsatisfying answer.

 

[Newkerzy]

Then I'll correct my statement with "ONLY saying both sides are bad is reductive", because people can rationalize bad things happening to bad people to a staggering degree (just look at what people are saying about the current events) without offering any productive criticism.

It's like when we bring up police brutality and Republicans say "Yeah, well maybe you blacks should just stop committing crime? You ever think about THAT!?"

Isn't that right @Sanity Check?

This response implies that police brutality is justified because the black men they're brutalizing are criminals, and if they don't want to be murdered by cops then they should just stop committing crimes. As if petty crime is worthy of execution.



"I don't think black people are inherently bad. I think it's the culture. I think if black people want to put an end to police brutality what they should first do is fix their culture, then we can talk about police reform from there."

Ugh. I don't even disagree with you, I'm just saying when someone's looking for an answer to how we stop what's happening right now and you give an answer that requires you to reverse time so that it doesn't get to this point yet because of preparation to avoid it, it's an unsatisfying answer.

Yeah, I’m not disagreeing with you either. It’s just that both governments are complete shit that any chance of peace is a pipe dream at this point. I’m just saying the Palestine government is shit, because of how they’ve bungled in so many ways in achieving their objectives. Heck, do they even have a clear objective at all at this point?

 

[ninjabot]

I don't know what the objective is. I know what will be claimed as objectives for both sides, but behaviors for both makes it seem like they are more concerned with the killing leading up to those objectives.

 

[xi0]

I pretty much reject the notion that what's happening on the ground right now is because Palestinians have never been able to elect a functioning government that has people's best interests in mind. These airstrikes.... no, it doesn't matter to me whether Hamas uses civilians or civilian dwellings as cover or not. It's simply not a good enough reason to blow up one of the few hospitals in a warzone just because of a hunch. In fact, the suggestion that Hamas does this really only exists as justification ex post facto for Israel killing Palestinians indiscriminately. The same with giving a million+ people in North Gaza less than a day to move south and then bombing escape routes anyway.