American Politics

[M3J]

Hamas however is treating its hostages far better with the very little resources that they have than Israel is. In the videos you see of hostages being released by Hamas, they seem to be on good terms with Hamas and refused to talk to Netanyahu until recently. Israel even forced them into staying silent. I don't know how true or accurate HuffPost is since some videos show us the hostages were treated well.

Hamas has been accused so many things that were never proven or debunked, or admitted to be lies by Israel or the White House. It's annoying having to repeat this, but Hamas is the result of Israel's actions. If Hamas goes away, Israel still will not stop committing genocide, and they'll try to create another Hamas to justify their genocide.

Given Israel has broken ceasefire over and over, even during the last ceasefire few days ago, it's safe to say that Hamas is not the problem, especially when Israel is attacking West Bank. If you care about Palestinians, your focus should be on Israel, not on Hamas. The fact you said "Islamist Jihad" and are way too focused on Hamas while ignoring Israel literally carpet bombing places and claiming Hamas is here and there and everywhere without a shred of evidence say a lot. Did you know a Palestinian isn't a religion? That they can be Christian or Jews as well.

How is being raped and beaten to near death and tortured better than a quick death? Lot of Palestinians who have lost loved ones wish they were dead because of the losses they've suffered as well as the destructions they've seen, on top of the world letting them down.

No, it's Israel that's the problem. If a country with more power, resources, and support from major nations are committing genocide and war crimes and are getting away with it, then they're definitely the problem. Thankfully the last few months their lies have been exposed, and Palestinian journalists have been exposing them at the risk of their lives and families' lives.

Biden won 2020 because of the left working hard to make sure people could vote. Without that effort and without Muslims, he's definitely going to be in trouble. And it'll just snowball from here on as long as more and more people become aware of what's really going on between Palestine and Israel and how Biden is letting the genocide happen.

What's funny though is that I never talked about my decision to vote in the 2024 election, if I remember correctly. I didn't say if I would abstain from voting or if I'd vote for Trump or Biden. Just that Biden alienated tons of people over the years, and the way he's handling Israel attempting genocide is just the final nail in the coffin.

Blaming anyone but Dems and Biden is also extremely stupid if he loses because the Dems were warned way in advance, but they still stuck with him. Clinton lost 2016 because despite her not being that popular, Dems still tried to get her in office. Biden was lucky that covid happened, and people lived through four years of Trump that they didn't want more and thought Biden would do what's best for people.

I wish Jeremy Corbyn was an American, he's an infinitely better person and politician than any politician I've seen. Including the Zionist supporter Bernie.

 

[ninjabot]

I think you're overestimating how much Americans care about dead Palestinians, honestly. I could be wrong. I'd be genuinely surprised that people will let the Israel-Palestine conflict affect their everyday life. It's the least reasonable voting decision anyone in America could make.

 

[xi0]

Hamas doesn't need to be expunged because they're doing bad things to Israelis, they need to go because they'll never let Palestinians pursue the one path to peace that doesn't lead to every Palestinian being murdered: surrender.

This would be fine logic if Israel has proven to be an honest actor themselves. Otherwise all Israel is doing is killing 20k people in the hopes of eradicating Hamas, which seems...unlikely? Or having another similar outfit just take their place. I just don't see the argument that the current path is the one that leads to the best outcome.

 

[ninjabot]

This would be fine logic if Israel has proven to be an honest actor themselves. Otherwise all Israel is doing is killing 20k people in the hopes of eradicating Hamas, which seems...unlikely? Or having another similar outfit just take their place. I just don't see the argument that the current path is the one that leads to the best outcome.

No, that's not necessary. For what's probably like the 800th time now: I'm not relying on the trustworthiness of Israel. I've always said, from pages back, that enforcing the 2 state solution would come down to the US and UN using their influence to enforce Israel's actions. Palestine can't be trusted, and neither can Israel.

You know what? I really have to know: what do YOU think is the most "likely" path to peace? Likely, not morally right, or that completely satisfies both parties?

I feel like realism and likelihood doesn't have any meaning at all in this thread because every time I bring up the 2 state solution I get a goddamn manifesto about how bad Israel is like I don't know it. It's all just moralizing and dogmatic adherence to this idea that this "river to the sea" nonsense is gonna happen because kids on twitter are posting Palestinian memes about how "this is what decolonization looks like" with their Palestinian flag pfps and fucking cosplay Hamas outfits.

 

[M3J]

Israel almost always has no evidence of anything they accuse Palestine or Hamas of. Yet Palestinians have videos of the destruction, bodies, and murders happening at the hands of Israel.

There's at least one graphic video so be careful. Putting the links in spoiler so it doesn't take up the page.

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/hausofriya/status/1732919951260893622
https://twitter.com/realnikohouse/status/1732792974633828667

 

[Newkerzy]

No, that's not necessary. For what's probably like the 800th time now: I'm not relying on the trustworthiness of Israel. I've always said, from pages back, that enforcing the 2 state solution would come down to the US and UN using their influence to enforce Israel's actions. Palestine can't be trusted, and neither can Israel.

You know what? I really have to know: what do YOU think is the most "likely" path to peace? Likely, not morally right, or that completely satisfies both parties?

I feel like realism and likelihood doesn't have any meaning at all in this thread because every time I bring up the 2 state solution I get a goddamn manifesto about how bad Israel is like I don't know it. It's all just moralizing and dogmatic adherence to this idea that this "river to the sea" nonsense is gonna happen because kids on twitter are posting Palestinian memes about how "this is what decolonization looks like" with their Palestinian flag pfps and fucking cosplay Hamas outfits.

I cannot agree with you more. Palestine cannot be trusted because of their corruption, thus weakening their credibility. Israel cannot be trusted either, as they have time and again, not held up their end of the bargain.

So, what IS the solution here? Well, there is one. Until the day both sides get it through their heads that this conflict only brings suffering for both, this vicious cycle of hatred will continue. Unfortunately, it is a long, long, long ways off until that day ever comes because both sides believe it’s their god-given holy duty to eradicate the other.

 

[ninjabot]

I cannot agree with you more. Palestine cannot be trusted because of their corruption, thus weakening their credibility. Israel cannot be trusted either, as they have time and again, not held up their end of the bargain.

Yep. And not for nothing, but every pro-Israel person I've spoken to about this makes distinctions between Israel and Hamas, and only holds ill-will for Hamas, and doesn't try to rationalize any of the bad shit Israel has done. It's very, VERY telling that it's only pro-Palestine folk that wants to justify their side's evils when Hamas does some disgusting shit. And I'm not saying they're inherently evil. I'm saying they're so emotionally invested in the plight of Palestinians, either from a need to virtue signal online about how much they love brown people and thus are intrinsically more moral than everyone else... or because they're Muslims and are emotionally invested in the murder of Muslims as well (more justifiable) that they can't just stop and ask what's better for Palestinians than a foreverwar.

Also wanna point out I've been called a Zionist and an Islamaphobe by 2 people in here, and I never accused anyone of being an anti-semite once. So much easier to ignore what someone has to say and shout down their ideas when you can put them in a box.

So, what IS the solution here? Well, there is one. Until the day both sides get it through their heads that this conflict only brings suffering for both, this vicious cycle of hatred will continue. Unfortunately, it is a long, long, long ways off until that day ever comes because both sides believe it’s their god-given holy duty to eradicate the other.

How dare you say such a thing you Zionist Pig-dog.

 

[Newkerzy]

How dare you say such a thing you Zionist Pig-dog.

Err, are you being sarcastic?

 

[ninjabot]

Israel almost always has no evidence of anything they accuse Palestine or Hamas of.

That's objectively false. I just don't post it because every time I do you pretend like the shit is fake, so I'm not wasting my time.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 9, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 9, 2023 ---

Err, are you being sarcastic?

Lmfao, I thought it was obvious! I was pointing out how there's no room for nuance in this thread because if you point out the evils of Palestine you're accused of being a Zionist lol.

 

[Newkerzy]

Lmfao, I thought it was obvious!

Haha, I just wanted to be sure that’s all

 

[M3J]

That's objectively false. I just don't post it because every time I do you pretend like the shit is fake, so I'm not wasting my time.

It's not false. I've been seeing "evidence" tweeted by Israel and Zionist supporters, and none of them had anything even remotely credible. They share pictures of "blood" splattered everywhere, and not only does the blood look so obviously fake and showing lack of medical knowledge, but there almost always is no body.

Zionists also share videos of them claiming to be under attack from Hamas, but in those same videos you can see other people in the background walking and doing stuff like it's a normal day. One of the reasons why Palestine has gotten far more support recently is because of how badly Israel has lied. I don't have to pretend it's fake when it often is, and your evidence usually is years old.

And why would you call me anti-Semitic when I've said nothing against Jews? "Islamic Jihadism" is a term often used by Islamophobes, however, at least in my experience. Plus, opposing Israel isn't anti-Semitic, otherwise all Jews would be Zionist, and IOF wouldn't be attacking Jews that support Palestine.

In any case, a two state solution is a horrible solution, especially when Palestine was getting along just fine even when Jews were sent to live there. The problem started when Zionists started taking over Palestine lands and using violence. Look at Palestine before the Nakba, and compare it to after. If you want to continue deluding yourself that both sides are the problem, or that Hamas is the reason why Israel continues committing genocide, then feel free to do so. Seems like Israel itself could confess that it's trying to commit genocide and doesn't care about Hamas, but you'd still keep blaming Hamas.

 

[ninjabot]

University of Pennsylvania president steps down amid criticism of antisemitism testimony

Scott L. Bok, chair of the Penn Board of Trustees, announced Liz Magill has voluntarily stepped down as university president. Bok also resigned, the Ivy League school said.

www.nbcnews.com

It's not false. I've been seeing "evidence" tweeted by Israel and Zionist supporters, and none of them had anything even remotely credible. They share pictures of "blood" splattered everywhere, and not only does the blood look so obviously fake and showing lack of medical knowledge, but there almost always is no body.

It's not just false, it's objectively false. In this exact thread you and xi0 both proved me right about the tunnel under the major hospital. xi0 posted links saying it was never there and they were pictures from a well, and then you posted a tweet pointing out it was there, but put there by Israel to begin with. This proved two things:

1: It's not only Israeli sources posting lies and propaganda
2: You don't give a shit about lies and propaganda as long as they're pro-Palestine

Zionists also share videos of them claiming to be under attack from Hamas, but in those same videos you can see other people in the background walking and doing stuff like it's a normal day. One of the reasons why Palestine has gotten far more support recently is because of how badly Israel has lied. I don't have to pretend it's fake when it often is, and your evidence usually is years old.

You don't get to diminish the value of evidence from every Israeli source based on the lies from other sources. You don't even give a shit about whether the source is trustworthy or not because you've posted claims from Quds, an untrustworthy source. And THERE IS NO TIME LIMIT ON TRUTH.

How about I ignore all the evidence of bad things committed to Palestinians over the entire history of the conflict since, you know, they've been happening for decades? Oh? You mean history is important? I DON'T get to pretend the shit didn't happen just because it's "years old"?

Huh.

And why would you call me anti-Semitic when I've said nothing against Jews? "Islamic Jihadism" is a term often used by Islamophobes, however, at least in my experience. Plus, opposing Israel isn't anti-Semitic, otherwise all Jews would be Zionist, and IOF wouldn't be attacking Jews that support Palestine.

I didn't call you anti-semitic. I didn't call hblock or that other poster allergic to periods that seems to have disappeared anti-semitic either. But I've been called genocide sympathizer and Zionist, and that's my fucking point.

In any case, a two state solution is a horrible solution, especially when Palestine was getting along just fine even when Jews were sent to live there. The problem started when Zionists started taking over Palestine lands and using violence. Look at Palestine before the Nakba, and compare it to after. If you want to continue deluding yourself that both sides are the problem, or that Hamas is the reason why Israel continues committing genocide, then feel free to do so. Seems like Israel itself could confess that it's trying to commit genocide and doesn't care about Hamas, but you'd still keep blaming Hamas.

It is the only solution that doesn't extend the conflict in perpetuity. Look at what you just typed: "the problem started when Zionists started taking over Palestine". Not only are Zionists not disappearing, but they're on the side with all the firepower and the global moral consideration, and the aid from the most powerful nation on the planet.

Unless you know of a realistic way to end the killing. I'd love to hear what your answer is.

 

[hblock]

Not only are Zionists not disappearing

Nazi disappeared.

 

[M3J]

Zionists aren't disappearing because USA and the West won't let them. US voted against ceasefire, actually, and as Biden said, they'll do anything to make sure Israel exists. Maybe one day we'll see more Zionists realize the truth and see Israel as an evil, violent, and unnecessary entity that should never have existed in the first place.

 

[xi0]

You know what? I really have to know: what do YOU think is the most "likely" path to peace? Likely, not morally right, or that completely satisfies both parties?

I already stated before that at face-value, the most likely path is a two-state solution. I still don't see it as all that "likely" though, adherence to previous guidelines/ideas isn't in Israel's interests and they have zero accountability asked of them. Why would they accept giving up land? They have no reason not to be fine with the current arrangement.

I feel like realism and likelihood doesn't have any meaning at all in this thread because every time I bring up the 2 state solution I get a goddamn manifesto about how bad Israel is like I don't know it. It's all just moralizing and dogmatic adherence to this idea that this "river to the sea" nonsense is gonna happen because kids on twitter are posting Palestinian memes about how "this is what decolonization looks like" with their Palestinian flag pfps and fucking cosplay Hamas outfits.

I think using Badbunny as an example of this group of people is pretty ridiculous honestly, if she isn't insane herself then she's some sort of performance artist. But idk, maybe you're more familiar with his orbiters overall.

 

[ninjabot]

I already stated before that at face-value, the most likely path is a two-state solution. I still don't see it as all that "likely" though, adherence to previous guidelines/ideas isn't in Israel's interests and they have zero accountability asked of them. Why would they accept giving up land? They have no reason not to be fine with the current arrangement.

I don't have any answer for any of that. I just know it's a lot more likely for them to be strongarmed by the US and UN into giving up some land than for Palestine to push back and take over everything "from the river to the sea".

I think using Badbunny as an example of this group of people is pretty ridiculous honestly, if she isn't insane herself then she's some sort of performance artist. But idk, maybe you're more familiar with his orbiters overall.

There are other examples (and Badbunny hasn't been an orbiter for years but whatevs)

I could link Frogan's fuckery

I could link Denims, who got banned for a week by Twitch for reading Bin Laden's letter about how shitty America is and agreeing with it on stream while repeating Hasan's "America deserved 9/11" sentiment. This was an argument in favor of not wanting to vote for Biden btw. Or I should say I WOULD link it all but it's all been removed from twitch :l

I could link ALL of Hasan's conversations with Ethan Klein, which eventually resulted in their show The Leftovers ending because of Hasan's crazy chat calling Ethan a Zionist and laughing at him when he was crying over dead Israeli children. Or how they ran with Hasan's "Settler Babies" quote (which he still stands by).



Piece of shit "hates debate". Proceeds to use rhetorical arguments to debate his emotionally distraught Jewish friend into not feeling bad for dead Jewish babies. Second tweet is the vid Hasan agrees with.

BTW, the videos in these tweets are in those youtube vids. And the vids have timestamps to see all the horribly damning things Hasan says.

I could link the fliers by the Philly Palestine Coalition asking folks to not eat at Israeli restaurants in America because they're "All virtually Zionist".
So I'd argue that Badbunny isn't the worst of this list. I know MikefromPA has said something dumb but I don't remember what. Something like there weren't actually any babies killed. I forget.

But you're right, alot of these people and sources save for SecondThought and Hakim are Destiny adjacent. He's even spoken to them at one point or another being the debatebro that he is. Vaush has been a smidge more reserved about the Israel/Palestine stuff I think. But considering how big Hasan is, and how Denims and MikefromPA and Frogan are all his orbiters well... the outreach of fuckery is pretty broad. Denims and Mike are both "Waiting rooms" for Hasan's audience. They stream early with Hasan clips airing for an hour until they get on stream, then they actually stream doing the normal twitchpol react stuff, and then hop off when Hasan gets on.

Not knocking the hustle, I'd do the same shit when Destiny streams if I was a political streamer. Just saying that they're all in the same bucket deplorables.

And it's a shame cause Denims is such a baddie

 

[M3J]

This sums up most accusations against Hamas/Palestine, especially by Israel. "No evidence but take our word for it!"

 

[xi0]

I don't have any answer for any of that. I just know it's a lot more likely for them to be strongarmed by the US and UN into giving up some land than for Palestine to push back and take over everything "from the river to the sea".

I would only say it's "more likely" because the current power structure in Israel isn't interested in being replaced by a secular implementation of government and equal rights for ALL citizens. That sort of defeats the purpose of the existence of Israel, after all. It's an ethno-state.

Not that Israel ending their blockade of Gaza, allowing free passage between it and The West Bank, the withdrawal/removal of all Israeli settlements in the West Bank, as well as ceding full administrative rights to Jerusalem to the UN is a far more practical alternative that will ever happen now. Because short of that (and maybe even with that), lasting peace is a pretty naive suggestion.

Some may use that quote as a war cry, but it's not exclusively that.

I could link ALL of Hasan's conversations with Ethan Klein, which eventually resulted in their show The Leftovers ending because of Hasan's crazy chat calling Ethan a Zionist and laughing at him when he was crying over dead Israeli children. Or how they ran with Hasan's "Settler Babies" quote (which he still stands by).

I don't really see the issue with calling Ethan a Zionist...when he is? Not that chatters aren't insufferable and not interested in honest discussions.

Can't really speak to anything else there in your post since I'm not familiar enough with their positions to advocate for much either way.

 

[ninjabot]

I would only say it's "more likely" because the current power structure in Israel isn't interested in being replaced by a secular implementation of government and equal rights for ALL citizens. That sort of defeats the purpose of the existence of Israel, after all. It's an ethno-state.

Of course.

Not that Israel ending their blockade of Gaza, allowing free passage between it and The West Bank, the withdrawal/removal of all Israeli settlements in the West Bank, as well as ceding full administrative rights to Jerusalem to the UN is a far more practical alternative that will ever happen now. Because short of that (and maybe even with that), lasting peace is a pretty naive suggestion.

Some may use that quote as a war cry, but it's not exclusively that.

Right. I'm not of any delusion that it'd be easy or fast, or even absolute. My claim is only ever that it's a better path than what we're getting from M3J, hblock, or any of these people I'm linking you. As for the "river to the sea" I know it's not exclusively that. Not exclusively. That's not my real problem though. My problem is the amount of people that think it is. The ones willing to die for it, and the ones cheering on said behavior.

I don't really see the issue with calling Ethan a Zionist...when he is?

I mean they call him what lefties believe Zionists are. Not someone who simply believes Jews deserve their own state. Zionist is used with the same vitriol and hatred as "commie" is when describing Socialists. Which is hilarious considering it's self proclaimed Socialists using the word Zionist this way.

Not that chatters aren't insufferable and not interest in honest discussions.

Can't really speak to anything else there in your post since I'm not familiar enough with their positions to advocate for much either way.

Right, right. Why would videos of people stating their positions on the Israel/Palestine conflict and the October 7th attack tell you anything about their.... positions? On Israel. Or Palestine.

Sigh.

It's fucking whatever. The only point for all of that was to prove that Badbunny isn't an outlier or even the most crazy, and to show how far the cancer has spread.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 11, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 11, 2023 ---

Lol this shit is hilarious.

 

[M3J]

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 12, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 12, 2023 ---

fact