American Politics

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
Well, let's say it like this: If you actually care about people, you are very likely to become a left radical at some point.
that's not even a left radical or radical left thing, that should be a common thing amongst people with conscience and humanity. From my limited knowledge, the only politician I've seen that has consistently shown concern for people is Jeremy Corbyn, even the American liberals have been such disappointments.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
@M3J

What I was playing at is that in a world as violent as ours, if you actually accept the thought of all the people who get the short end of the stick not deserving it and being beings with feelings and needs, you are bound to become very frustrated and angry.

It is one thing to think of the world's battlefields as a geopolitical game in which one hopes the "right people" win. It is another thing entirely to let the deaths get to your heart as tragic incidents, one extermination of life at a time. The same goes for not seeing homeless people as a problem to be resolved, but every single one of them as a suffering human who will be mostly ignored even if they die on street in plain sight.

When you really care about the people that nobody forces you to care about, as in, if you really think that you have no more right to have a flat than the person who sits on street, I think you start looking at systemic issues and want more justice and compassion in that world. And then you are at least half the way down to become a left radical person in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
"radical left" is a fearmongering term made up by republicans to get their supporters to vote. now Democrats are using that term because they don't like being held accountable or doing work, they'd rather stay shitty and blame others for losing. If anything, radical left may be the ones that want to see USA ended due to its history of violence and committing violence towards others
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
There is definitely a divide between people who want to reform the world into utopia and the people who want to tear down the current system with all its injustices.
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
I find that wild because liberals for a while did seem to care about people in general. I'm not a fan of ending countries like USA solely because of the way it'd affect innocent people who haven't done anything wrong. Could cause anarchy and hurt those people who just want to make a living.

But yeah, it was disheartening to see a lot of liberals oppose student loan forgiveness because "what about me when I already paid off my loans!" I was able to do that thanks to the $600 weekly covid relief under Trump, and that relief I felt after paying off all my loans made me want others to experience the same and not ever have to stress about it again. I could not understand why there were people who were opposed to that.
 

ninjabot

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
8,247
Reaction score
3,239
Age
41
Gender
Male
Country
United States
My take on that might be a little hard to convey, but i will try.

I think that men drifting to the right is a reaction to the world becoming increasingly crazy (like many other problems). In a world in which young men are more and more unlikely to get respect, fame or other sources of selfworth both for social an economical reasons, it makes a lot of sense for them to value the things they are good at: Physical things and other forms of power-projection.

As a young man with nothing, something like the military or police force is appealing, because you look at a world that is breaking apart but at least you are strong and can do something about it (subsequently raising your selfworth and giving you a feeling of control). Republicans defend someone like Kyle Rittenhouse, Democrats attack him. I am definitely not a fan of Rittenhouse, but for people who take crime very seriously, they feel like democrats ask them to just accept crime or even violence. That is something hard to accept for many young men especially.

Someone like Trump has a promise in him, which is that you are allowed to use your physical abilities and other power sources to defend yourself, your loved ones and your country. Of course, Trump does not have the best interests of the people who vote for him in mind. But he does give the people who tend to be worried about physical assaults the freedom to use their destructive powers the way they see fit and gives them respect. That is very valuable when you are afraid and everything that democrats or other leftists would give you respect for is outside of your comfort zone.

In my opinion, to convince a young man of not joining a force that I find destructive, it is obvious that there needs to be an alternative healthy way for them to get that sense of control and to be able to contribute in ways that are inside his comfort zone. And there need to be ways to get respect as a man and not just for rejecting your masculinity.

The truth is that leftwing spaces often make men very uncomfortable (nonleft women too, but to a lesser degree). When I think of a young, marginalized man from the hood, even if he would be open for many leftwing causes, I do not see him handwaving instead of clapping with a group of funny-haired people who check-in about their feelings every time they meet up. Even if there is nothing inherently wrong with that, it is too cringe. And if he gets heated in a discussion, which is something men often do with each other without it being an issue, he will get told that there are speaking rules. There are good arguments for these speaking rules (exactly BECAUSE men often try to argue by raising their voice), but that is just not a setting that an actual marginalized man with masculine traits would ever feel comfortable in. And leftwing politics is led by people who DO feel comfortable in these spaces and who often thus have very little idea about how to properly communicate with these men or what to really offer them.

So my takeaway here is: you have two groups here that create spaces that they claim are for everyone, but which really are not. To get young men into a democratic (not democrat) kind of mindset, the basis of democracy would be to create a discussion space in which leftists do not start out by trying to call all shots about who may say what, but instead accept that they need to persuade, not shame or force young men to join a common cause. That is the first step to mutual respect.
Well you're reiterating things I've mentioned in this thread so there's nothing to disagree with here. I guess what I was really wanting to know is how you make Leftists accept these realizations and work towards them.

As for the argument about the radical left, I think people need to clarify definitions, because most people colloquially consider radical to mean extreme. And I don't believe that people naturally jump to extremes when they feel emotionally driven to help marginalized groups: they jump to extremes when they're TOO emotionally driven to help marginalized groups to consider the consequences of their actions, or when there is an intense danger of something exponentially worse happening if they don't act.

A Leftist shaming a Liberal for not doing enough to help homeless people by saying "You don't really care if you're not resorting to extreme actions to enact change" doesn't work to shame Liberals because you can't tell a person what they feel. You don't get to decide what feelings are in their heart. You can attack our actions (or lack thereof), but you don't get to tell us what we care about. It just comes off as virtue signaling from people that don't really care about the things they're advocating for, but really want people online to THINK that they do.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
@ninjabot

My view is that you cannot and should not "make" anyone accept anything. It doesnt work and just ends in fights. If the world is supposed to take a more peaceful path, then it can only do so by people finding common ground. And that can only work if everyones' needs are seriously listened to.

The point of view of "I know better" because "I follow the facts" leads down an authoritarian path, because the most likely reaction of the people who you want to either force or sweet-talk with that mindset is to distrust you and fight you on the long term.

That is a thought that not only leftists, but everyone should give more attention to in my opinion. The organization I am in currently tries its best to take that into account and to be less judgemental towards towards working class people, so we can better meet on even ground instead of "us educating them".

Consequently, the way I answer the question of "how should the left correct men from drifting further to the right" is that it shouldnt and it cant. Correction implies that we know better and just need the power or rhetorics to make them listen. And that will lock us into a powerstruggle or a web of lies rather than yield a longterm healthier relationship. What the left possibly can and in my opinion should do is to learn and accept the views of men that behave in a way that the left does not like and then find common ground on equal footing with them. That is not going to happen by just having this or that policy that trends with young men, this is a deep social systemic issue that takes serious time, effort and especially willingness to undertake.
 
Last edited:

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki

Man, Biden's really trying to fuck everything up before he leaves when he should be fucking things up for Trump and republicans
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
Mostly, it seems liek Biden pardoned people for drug offenses tho. The presidential pardon itself is a crazy concept, anyway, but "power to the people" seems like an account I wouldnt trust, they seem like a bought mouthpiece.
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki

Point taken. That source says he reduced her sentence
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Wild that cops and politicians are treating Luigi like a terrorist but Dylann Roof and murderers like Kyle Rittenhouse are not considered terrorists and in some cases get away with their crimes. Crazy how killing a CEO that's responsible for so many deaths is somehow worse than killing Black people inside a church or going to another state with a gun and killing two protesters.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
It also seems unwise, it make him even more of a likable martyr.

The only good reason to do this i can come up with is to reassure the CEOs and the people who condemn this act. But with Gaza and this, they are going to alienate and possibly radicalize (in a neutral sense of the word) a lot of young voters, which might have lets of effects down the road.

This is just a crackpot theory, but I think this is going to positively influence the strike movement. People are fed up and that is the easiest way to channel that.
 

kkck

Waifu Slayer
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
46,294
Reaction score
24,926
Gender
Hidden
Country
Fire Nation
With the way things are looking like right now... It doesn't even look like biden has a chance to leave the white house on a high note. Trump's not even in office yet and he already looks like he is calling the shots and setting policy. The guy is not even in office and might already have a hand in causing a government shutdown. I suppose this is not something which democrats can stop but how is this OK? The only upside of this is that the humiliation for democrats and the potato at the white house will continue to pile which hopefully triggers some change in the party.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
It seems like Elon Musk is trying to make a move for world leadership. I mean that.

He just got power over the presidency and is already trying to influence the next election in Germany. And he has successes. Pathetically, there are some German high profile politicians that actually go on twitter and kindly ask Elon for help.

I think what we are looking at is billionaires coming out of the woodworks because they are done influencing things behind the scenes. They want to have hard power now and feel bold enough to show it.
 

ninjabot

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
8,247
Reaction score
3,239
Age
41
Gender
Male
Country
United States
My view is that you cannot and should not "make" anyone accept anything. It doesnt work and just ends in fights. If the world is supposed to take a more peaceful path, then it can only do so by people finding common ground. And that can only work if everyones' needs are seriously listened to.
This is so incredibly disheartening to me. To claim that you can't convince someone that something is true is just objectively wrong. You might not be able to convince everyone, but you can convince some people. That's why I'm such a violently unapologetic Destiny glazer: he's the best political figure on the Left when it comes to deradicalizing people. Because he does it regularly. By the hundreds. And he's only able to because he talks to anyone and everyone with the intent of correcting misinformation.

I guess that explains why you can't see his value, because you don't think it's possible that he can do the thing that he's been doing for like, 14 years now.

The point of view of "I know better" because "I follow the facts" leads down an authoritarian path, because the most likely reaction of the people who you want to either force or sweet-talk with that mindset is to distrust you and fight you on the long term.
Well, that's only if you present your argument as that. You wouldn't say "I know better because I know the facts." You'd ask them how they know THEY have the facts, and then you'd present your counter-argument. If you've ever heard of street epistemology, that helps with that. It's basically a tool made by Peter Boghosian that lets you ask anyone any question in the least defensive way possible to pursue their true understanding of whatever they're talking about.

This is the "gamefied" version of it, but there are conversational ways to do it. It's what Anthony Magnobosco does to talk theists into defending their faith.

That is a thought that not only leftists, but everyone should give more attention to in my opinion. The organization I am in currently tries its best to take that into account and to be less judgemental towards towards working class people, so we can better meet on even ground instead of "us educating them".
I wish this organization had an American sect to teach these weird-ass Leftists how not to scare away normal people.

Consequently, the way I answer the question of "how should the left correct men from drifting further to the right" is that it shouldnt and it cant. Correction implies that we know better and just need the power or rhetorics to make them listen. And that will lock us into a powerstruggle or a web of lies rather than yield a longterm healthier relationship. What the left possibly can and in my opinion should do is to learn and accept the views of men that behave in a way that the left does not like and then find common ground on equal footing with them. That is not going to happen by just having this or that policy that trends with young men, this is a deep social systemic issue that takes serious time, effort and especially willingness to undertake.
I think we should and we can. The only reason I asked you is because you're further Left than me and I wanted your perspective on how a Leftist would do it. I already know what Liberals should do about it: direct confrontation with people where they're at. Don't try to make someone Left-leaning, make them enjoy being around Left-leaning people. Apolitical people already lean Left if you just ask them the most basic of political positions. The things that they're right-leaning about are all aesthetic.

With the way things are looking like right now... It doesn't even look like biden has a chance to leave the white house on a high note.
At the risk of sounding glib and confrontational... who the fuck cares about Joe Biden? I feel like the rest of America stopped caring about him the second he got dog-walked in that debate. Likewise, with Republicans having absolute power now, what are we gaining from attacking Democrats when they don't have the means to enact any change from this back foot?

Is this what the next 4 years is gonna be? Complaining about Democrats while they're failing to get anything done without the power to get anything done? If so, why? Who are you helping? Besides Republicans?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

 

kkck

Waifu Slayer
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
46,294
Reaction score
24,926
Gender
Hidden
Country
Fire Nation
At the risk of sounding glib and confrontational... who the fuck cares about Joe Biden? I feel like the rest of America stopped caring about him the second he got dog-walked in that debate. Likewise, with Republicans having absolute power now, what are we gaining from attacking Democrats when they don't have the means to enact any change from this back foot?

Is this what the next 4 years is gonna be? Complaining about Democrats while they're failing to get anything done without the power to get anything done? If so, why? Who are you helping? Besides Republicans?
That's kinda my point, no one gives a shit about him. He is still president ffs. Meanwhile by all appearances the one making all the calls is trump. Democrats still have some power, they should 100% be using it until their last day in office. Trump or musk ( an unelected pretend bureaucrat) shouldn't be treated as if it was already January 2025.
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
I think we should and we can. The only reason I asked you is because you're further Left than me and I wanted your perspective on how a Leftist would do it. I already know what Liberals should do about it: direct confrontation with people where they're at. Don't try to make someone Left-leaning, make them enjoy being around Left-leaning people. Apolitical people already lean Left if you just ask them the most basic of political positions. The things that they're right-leaning about are all aesthetic.
I agree that the key is community and trust. As you outlined above in the video, one useful thing to do is to focus on understanding rather than winning in a discussion. That is what I mean when I say that we should not "correct" people. We should listen to each other and find common ground. And I also agree that most people are leftleaning, as in, they mostly want to live in a society based on values like sharing.

To me, the absolute foundation of mutual understanding is that I do not seek to mislead them, no matter how nicely I do it. And to me, misleading starts when I talk to them tactically to make them vote democrats (for example). I can explain to them why I think what I think in a certain way to find common understanding, but the basis has to be that I am in upholding their freedom of choice and their best interest. And that I accept that I am not entitled to judge their choices if they decide against my point of view.

If I do not respect that, there is no power behind what I do, as there is no real understanding or lasting solidarity.
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
It also seems unwise, it make him even more of a likable martyr.

The only good reason to do this i can come up with is to reassure the CEOs and the people who condemn this act. But with Gaza and this, they are going to alienate and possibly radicalize (in a neutral sense of the word) a lot of young voters, which might have lets of effects down the road.

This is just a crackpot theory, but I think this is going to positively influence the strike movement. People are fed up and that is the easiest way to channel that.
Another crackpot theory is that Luigi might not be the actual killer, and all of this is to make us think that he is. People seeing the murderer of a CEO get caught and likely executed would deter them from doing the same, or so the authorities hope.

It seems like Elon Musk is trying to make a move for world leadership. I mean that.

He just got power over the presidency and is already trying to influence the next election in Germany. And he has successes. Pathetically, there are some German high profile politicians that actually go on twitter and kindly ask Elon for help.

I think what we are looking at is billionaires coming out of the woodworks because they are done influencing things behind the scenes. They want to have hard power now and feel bold enough to show it.
I think it's just mostly Elon, and because he's an egomaniacal fucktard who also has a fanbase. Or he likely knows the cat is out of the bag.

Interestingly, Dems claim that Trump will oust Elon for ego reasons if people keep acting as if Elon is the actual president. I don't get the logic but hey, Dem logic helped them win 2016 and 2024, didn't it?
 

shionoro

Mangahelper
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
3,750
Reaction score
1,477
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
I think it is more than just Musk. It seems clear to me that the Zuckerbergs, the Bezos, the Thiels, they are all making a move now. They are less afraid to get bad PR and they openly meddle.

And it makes a lot of sense, too. Both when it comes to Digitalization and Climate Change, we are nearing a time where they can rightfully assume that the world will be shaken. They are at the forefront of companies that are responsible for it, so they want power to retain control.
 

kkck

Waifu Slayer
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
46,294
Reaction score
24,926
Gender
Hidden
Country
Fire Nation
trump had a council of CEOs back in 2016 and trump ended up disbanding it before they got a chance to quit over trump being impossible to work with. Let alone that people who work with trump in general had a tendency to quit (and then call some variety of awful human being). I guess we will see how things go with musks pretend government agency.
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
I think it is more than just Musk. It seems clear to me that the Zuckerbergs, the Bezos, the Thiels, they are all making a move now. They are less afraid to get bad PR and they openly meddle.

And it makes a lot of sense, too. Both when it comes to Digitalization and Climate Change, we are nearing a time where they can rightfully assume that the world will be shaken. They are at the forefront of companies that are responsible for it, so they want power to retain control.
I think they're betting everything on Trump in his final term
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

 
Top