Shounen Bakuman by Ohba Tsugumi and Obata Takeshi

[shinigamikender]

Re: Baku-man by Ohba x Obata (Death Note creators)

The translation on Jumpland uses 'storyboard' for 'name', which makes it a little clearer.

 

[AfterMath]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

this weeks chapter is really interesting, too bad they didn't get past the final 8 after their editor praise them so much.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I think it's kept the series on a level though.

and i hate to say it but Komi Naoshi pops into my head looking at the rival mangakas tezuka winning work :O

 

[sabret00the]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

It's going to be interesting to see how the coming chapters deal with things. i find it interesting that we need an improvement on the artwork based on style and yet WSJ's #1 is drawn more like disney than anything eastern. i also don't like the fact that shujin's grades are slipping.

 

[fizban]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Shujin is throwin' down and rollin' in the bitches. Word. His story idea this time was much more interesting to me than the Two Earths story.

Saiko has it pretty tough. While there could be many different stories that fit within the guideline of a "masculine" manga, there aren't as many options for the artwork. I always let out a little laugh when reading Hajime no Ippo because of how buff the guys are for people who are supposed to be featherweights, but they have to still keep those things within a realistic level.

It cracked me up when that shitty artist guy held up his own artwork. Shujin had said that all the guy ever draws are crappy headshots, which is exactly what we saw.

 

[alexlw92]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I think it's kept the series on a level though.

and i hate to say it but Komi Naoshi pops into my head looking at the rival mangakas tezuka winning work :O

T-T i miss double arts...

whats with how fast time goes by in this series? like, every chapter has a month or so timeskip...



oh, and...
i think a point of this series is that working together is better. like, their first manuscript was so-so, then shujin helped takagi with his story, and the story became awesome, so now takagis gonna help shujin with art?...

 

[Destin82]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Anybody sort of wish there was a manga about a super computer with a ranking system that could poison people on a whim. I was reading Bakukan thinking 'damn, give me about 300 chapters of that.' That being said, love Bakuman so far. Really hope it's not canceled as it's generally a complete change from most of the stuff in SJ.

 

[magicbulletgirl]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

As this, and Bleach, are really the only two Jump manga's I read, I figured I might as well get involved writing something. Especially when I just finished going through this thread after I read the latest chapter.

Now, I don't want to beat a dead horse (though I don't think it is one) but I really do feel that Sugumi and Takeshi purposely put women on a second tier thought-wise and everything.

Let's just take Iwase for one. In the earlier chapters we hear how and see that she's "arrogant" (never mind the fact the manga-ka draws her this way) about how smart she is and "shows off". And yes, I completely recognize that this opinion are from two 14 year old boys but if Iwase is indeed so much different from the other girls in towards the way people perceive her, she wouldn't have gone over to Takagi's house. She'd be a modern girl for one thing and she wouldn't care to have a boyfriend or feel the need to have a staring contest (seeing who would stay the longest) with the other girl over Takagi. She'd know that she doesn't a guy for anything, she can support herself, get a job, etc.

So I'm very mad actually that we take this "smart girl" who's misunderstood and distorted by these stupid guys be put as "just another stupid girl" trying to get a boyfriend. It half reminds me of Takky and Misa fighting over Light.

And the worst part is that Sugumi and Takeshi have a history of knocking over women. They did it to Naomi, who so could have totally gotten Light, and now they're going to do it to Iwase who could be a so much deeper character.

Then there is Azuki. Why would she want to get married after she does the voice for Mashiro and Takagi's anime? Is that going to be the high point of her life? After she gets married, is she not work anymore and have her kids be her medal like Japanese society expects of married women instead of giving women more flexible daycare so they can have a real career?

The worst part is that through Takagi's story, they've already acknowledged that it's wrong that women place their hopes and dreams on their kids. The problem is they don't mention a solution to it at all like the one above. If women are expected to stay at home and take care of the kids then they're essentially nonpersons.

Cause I read through the comments, especially those of "women" who didn't feel there was anything sexist in this manga, and I've just got to ask, did you seriously not think so, or are you letting it slide because this is Japanese?

(In before "you're just not getting the culture" - yeah I am and it's bad for women. Why do you think women aren't having kids right now in Japan when the single life ensures them a happier lifestyle?)

 

[eni]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Cause I read through the comments, especially those of "women" who didn't feel there was anything sexist in this manga, and I've just got to ask, did you seriously not think so, or are you letting it slide because this is Japanese?

(In before "you're just not getting the culture" - yeah I am and it's bad for women. Why do you think women aren't having kids right now in Japan when the single life ensures them a happier lifestyle?)

I seriously don't feel that this manga is any more "sexists" as other stories about/for teenage boys. That doesn't even need to be manga. On the opposite, literature for girls has it's stereotypical view on boys too.

As for the "Japanese single women", that's an effect you can see allover the world atm. It's just piercing the eyes especially when it's about Asia countries as those have a "speed development" on modern society. You feel like it's "more extreme" but it's the very same development as Western countries have since a long time, we just have it stretched while they catch up in a nutshell.

 

[magicbulletgirl]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I seriously don't feel that this manga is any more "sexists" as other stories about/for teenage boys. That doesn't even need to be manga. On the opposite, literature for girls has it's stereotypical view on boys too.

As for the "Japanese single women", that's an effect you can see allover the world atm. It's just piercing the eyes especially when it's about Asia countries as those have a "speed development" on modern society. You feel like it's "more extreme" but it's the very same development as Western countries have since a long time, we just have it stretched while they catch up in a nutshell.

I never proposed that some shojo mangas were sexist against boys in their own right, but how is it that the author of Fruits Basket can paint a very even picture of relationships, without bashing any sex, while these two seem to feel they do?
And the argument of letting this slide just because the other "side" does it too doesn't work. It doesn't change anything.
I read a lot of shonen manga, and I never feel half as offended as I do when I read this sometimes. Mainly because sure they can push forward those qualities of what a guy is/should be without bashing women in the process.

Also, a BIG difference in the way those qualities are presented is that in mangas like Detective Conan, and Bleach - the author makes it clear that any negative qualities attributed are only about the character and not the whole spectrum of the gender, as where we have Takagi saying "women are" and "girls do this". (though I am sure some of these lines exist in Bleach, I have yet to come across them).

As for the "Japanese single woman" effect, yes that is something going around a lot and it is a made a big deal of in Japan and other non-western countries because there is still isn't that change of thought and the manga reflects this.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

actually as a dude who loves shojo, i found something really plain and overly safe in fruits basket, an indication that some level of segregation can make a better series. and bakuman.... well it's stepped away from all the sexism issue to me, and is more about the dudes doing their manga. though time will tell with the last developments as to whether it's escaped such bondage

 

[eni]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I never proposed that some shojo mangas were sexist against boys in their own right, but how is it that the author of Fruits Basket can paint a very even picture of relationships, without bashing any sex, while these two seem to feel they do?

The author of Fruit Basket may do (I haven't read that one) but several others don't. There are plenty of very stereotypical views on boys in shoujo manga as well. Most them aren't really offending but that's part of shoujo's nature which usually isn't aggressive in it's wordings as much as literature aimed towards male readers.

And the argument of letting this slide just because the other "side" does it too doesn't work. It doesn't change anything.

Why shouldn't it work? That's simply how gender interact among themselves and with each other. Guys joke about girls and girls joke about guys, a very normal routine. I've seen worse things in seinen manga were the mangaka just focused on the breast not the brain >.>;

I read a lot of shonen manga, and I never feel half as offended as I do when I read this sometimes. Mainly because sure they can push forward those qualities of what a guy is/should be without bashing women in the process.

Also, a BIG difference in the way those qualities are presented is that in mangas like Detective Conan, and Bleach - the author makes it clear that any negative qualities attributed are only about the character and not the whole spectrum of the gender, as where we have Takagi saying "women are" and "girls do this". (though I am sure some of these lines exist in Bleach, I have yet to come across them).

Hm, just because other shounen don't say it directly doesn't mean that they don't show it. But you can see a clear role allocation in most of them. The guy is the worker, the strong one coming to the rescue - which is normal for teenage stories, be it for guys or girls. Books with a dominating heroine are still special promoted as "literature for strong girls" as they don't even sell when targeting boys. This is not bad, it's normal. Gender is different, it will never be equal. Children are naturally aware of that and differ greatly on the gender when playing in a group.

Directly bashing... I don't see it at that. The comments in Bakuman about women make me chuckle. They mirror very well casual comments I hear from the men around me and I would never feel offended by them, unless I get directly attacked (as in: person).

As for the "Japanese single woman" effect, yes that is something going around a lot and it is a made a big deal of in Japan and other non-western countries because there is still isn't that change of thought and the manga reflects this.

Which is just right. Forcing an development won't work, it will come with time

I had the nice experience being the first kid in my school with a single parent though divorce. That was kinda hardcore just 15 years ago while it's very normal nowadays.

 

[magicbulletgirl]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Pulling it back to the series itself, though I have opinions like "stereotyping breeds more stereotyping" and we can strive for equality but when I read this:

Directly bashing... I don't see it at that. The comments in Bakuman about women make me chuckle. They mirror very well casual comments I hear from the men around me and I would never feel offended by them, unless I get directly attacked (as in: person).

That pin-points the problem about why we think differently. When I hear or read guys saying this I am just as offended as if it were told directly to me because I think of the way I think of myself. If I heard some guys talking about women like that I'd tell them to shut up because it's not true.
It's even worse in this case because it's from a team of manga-ka that I know have a history of knocking over their female characters, I mentioned it above.
I very much love the idea of the story but it's not necessary to portray women like this. By portraying women like this they're just raising another generation of men who have no problem thinking these things and perpetuating the stereotypes of what makes a woman happy. That change we're thinking will come in time won't happen.

Were you not a little offended when Takagi said about Azuki "Well like she's naturally absorbed the idea that it's feminine to be graceful and well mannered and that girls should be serious and not too smart. She was born with the ability to sense that being too smart isn't cute."...? He saw her first as a girl than a person.
Azuki and every girl in Sugumi's and Takeshi's mangas should be treated as people and they're not. They did it to Naomi when Penbar told her "you're just my wife" not an FBI agent [anymore].
And then back on Iwase, answer me honestly, if Iwase was a guy and proud of "his" high grades, would anyone think he was stupid?
I don't see how adding in these sexist details help the story at all.

 

[eni]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Pulling it back to the series itself, though I have opinions like "stereotyping breeds more stereotyping" and we can strive for equality [ ... ].
[ ... ]
I very much love the idea of the story but it's not necessary to portray women like this. By portraying women like this they're just raising another generation of men who have no problem thinking these things and perpetuating the stereotypes of what makes a woman happy. That change we're thinking will come in time won't happen.

I think that a comedy/parody comic is not really a place for feminist screams. They portrait pretty much every topic in an overdramatized way, so why should they stop on this single one? Describing stereotypes in a humorously way is very normal and has a long tradition particularly is comics. It shouldn't be confused with serious statements.

That pin-points the problem about why we think differently. When I hear or read guys saying this I am just as offended as if it were told directly to me because I think of the way I think of myself. If I heard some guys talking about women like that I'd tell them to shut up because it's not true.

As I said, I joke about guys as well and that's all I see in this: It's a joke. A comedy or even a parody.

Gender are different. They aren't equal by nature and they never will be unless we create genderless clones one day. A certain among of competition will always be between the genders and that's also just natural. Carrying this to the level of humorous literature is just the better way to express this situation unlike reallife situations were the one or the others gets treated miserably because of the gender. Bakuman as a manga for teenage boys, only expresses the thoughts of teenage boys of that age in a comedy way very well so far. And those thoughts are naturally still very distanced from the female gender as something to compete with, yet very interesting and appealing. The beginning of puberty is a difficult time.

Were you not a little offended when Takagi said about Azuki "Well like she's naturally absorbed the idea that it's feminine to be graceful and well mannered and that girls should be serious and not too smart. She was born with the ability to sense that being too smart isn't cute."...? He saw her first as a girl than a person.

Well, she is a girl in the first place. Before you can get to know the personality, you only see the appearance. And no, why should I feel offended? He pretty much hits the nail on the head as women indeed have an excellent understanding on how important a good show is. It's genetic and simply part of our inner program to "appeal" in looks and behavior which feeds the classic joke that women only need to look good but don't need to have anything in the head. That works the other way round too, saying that strong guys only have muscles and no brain. My mother was an amateur bodybuilder which was quite a fun time back then as the training buddies tend to play ping pong with these kinds of jokes

Azuki and every girl in Sugumi's and Takeshi's mangas should be treated as people and they're not. They did it to Naomi when Penbar told her "you're just my wife" not an FBI agent [anymore].

Hm, I think you missed the point there. He was very worried as Kira was an extremely dangerous opponent. Everyone would want to keep their beloved one out of that and he choosed a very simple, yet a little harsh method. Aside from that, she retired. You often need to force dedicated people out of their work and that sadly needs some strong words here and there. It's a first for me to search for sexist traces in this sentence, honestly.

And then back on Iwase, answer me honestly, if Iwase was a guy and proud of "his" high grades, would anyone think he was stupid?

Nope, she would probably be seen as a nerd

 

[magicbulletgirl]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

This isn't about the sexes being physically the same, it's about they way they are perceived.
Iwase wouldn't be considered a nerd, but as an ambitious smart young man. Why shouldn't the female Iwase be considered the same way?
Are you going to say a girl being too smart IS NOT cute at all and a turn off to men and be okay with it? Are you seriously saying it's okay that young men and boys think like this and that maybe they'll grow out of it?

Manga should be socially proactive and not be dragging impressionable young minds backwards. I know exactly who are the protagonists, but like I said, there isn't a reason to knock over women in the process. They don't see women at all as something to compete with but as THE PRIZE. THAT IS SEXIST.

And with that I am done.

(Sorry for the caps but they were necessary).

 

[PlayerKill]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I don't see why you'd be so serious about this sexism issue...

Let me ask you something, do most guys prefer girls who are smartasses or would they prefer the cute and dumb type? Most people I know prefer the latter.

The mangaka isn't exactly saying that women shouldn't be smart and should only be housewives. He's saying that making yourself look like a smartass would make you very unattractive to guys. If you want a boyfriend, which is really part of teenagers' life, then you shouldn't try to repel them by being all cocky and stuff. I am a teenage guy and I totally know what Shujin is talking about. No, it's not sexism... I don't think that is a sexist remark at all. Also, there is nothing stupid about wanting a boyfriend instead of remaining single like you've mentioned. This isn't "women should stay at home and don't go to work" kind of thing, but more like "guys don't like cocky girls" which is really true, at least in an asian country like where I'm from.

If Shujin said something like "girls shouldn't be smart and stop getting educated", that'd be a different story. He simply said "Iwase isn't so smart by acting smart and arrogant because that'd repel all the guys.". In a typical highschool life, everyone is always talking about getting a bf/gf and making yourself attractive to the opposite sex etc.

Get over it.

 

[magicbulletgirl]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I'll answer your question. Most guys prefer the cute and dumb type, and they are stupid, just as stupid as the women who behave that way.
And you ignored the fact that yes it is sexist that Azuki is portrayed as a prize.
Also, if Iwase was so repulsive to him (and other guys) why the heck would he let her in to his house? What a hypocritical stupid guy.

So why don't you analyze the things as they really are instead or restating everything more or less already said.

 

[kewl0210]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I still say that sexism thing is more so in Japanese culture than around the US and... stuff. It's more in that culture to "not look too smart" or "look cute" than it is in this one, where if you assumed that then it would be really sexist, there it's more reality.
As for "Azuki being portrayed as a prize" she chose that herself, as a test for him. We don't completely know why, she might've had motivation from knowing her mother's past. But it would seem she has some deep reason for it, since she startede crying when Saiko asked her why.

Was that Imase in his house? I guess you're right...

Next week has a color page, by the way.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

well to stick my oar in with the 'plot developments of obviousness' they seem to lining iwase up to reveal she's not as arrogant as she tries to be or make her an interest, and probably create a romantic dilemma for shujin.

the series has had it's sexist moments, but aside from an early massive fuck up in chapter 2 it's all felt like stuff that has it's place in the plot, so even my occasional scepticism is quelled

 

[PlayerKill]

Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I'll answer your question. Most guys prefer the cute and dumb type, and they are stupid, just as stupid as the women who behave that way.
And you ignored the fact that yes it is sexist that Azuki is portrayed as a prize.
Also, if Iwase was so repulsive to him (and other guys) why the heck would he let her in to his house? What a hypocritical stupid guy.

So why don't you analyze the things as they really are instead or restating everything more or less already said.

It's not really a stupid thing to prefer the cute and stupid type. What does preference have to deal with stupidity? There is nothing wrong with guys who like short girls, would you agree? Then, what's wrong with liking stupid girls?

There's a reason why there are guys who don't like smart girls, especially since they tend to look arrogant like Iwase. (I also think the reason guys don't like Iwase is more because of her arrogance rather than her intelligence) What's wrong with not liking someone who looks arrogant? If there's a guy who's the top of the year and seems to be very arrogant and proud of himself, I don't think girls would like that guy much too. That's why Shujin said Iwase is stupid by portreying herself that way.

Do you think Shujin really welcome Iwase into his house??? Have you read his response when he talked to Saiko? Would you say "go away, I don't welcome you into my house" to a classmate?

As for portreyal of Azuki as a prize... If there's a really sexually attractive guy, wouldn't girls view that guy as some kind of "prize" to win as well? Look at all those american chick flicks... It's just typical fiction kind of thing where guys/girls talk about wanting the most attractive person of the opposite gender in school. To me, it sounds more like a biased remark from a girl who's reading a manga intended for guys to read, while it's not much different for girls either. Sorry, no offense intended, but I really think so. Also, I get the feeling that it's more like "when I'm good enough to match you and become successful, would you marry me?" like how his uncle view it, not as if she's a trophy like you imply. It's not a war fighting for the most beautiful woman or anything... but more like Saiko's trying hard to be good enough for the girl he likes. I really don't like this "prize" topic and don't wanna be part of it. It just sounds ridiculous to me.