Discussion Best Offense - Results

[Kurumi Tokisaki]

Jacob ain't no joke chief

Until he came across Lucy the GREAT TANK.

 

[Axiomus]

If Jacob makes top 10, Imma rage

 

[Kiki]

If Jacob makes top 10, Imma rage

I wonder how Axi rages pupupu

 

[Jko]

Jacob got @Kiki's endorsement and @Axiomus' rage. I must fix up some of my listing now...

 

[Ramen]

Jacob ain't no joke chief

those country level punches puts him above most characters

Multiversal+ punches. He taught Broly everything he knows.

 

[Kurumi Tokisaki]

those country level punches puts him above most characters

Don't why August bothered to stop him from fighting Acno.

 

[Biri Biri]

Jacob Lessio.

The one and only FT character who achieved significant mainstream success.

Here's the cheap Jacob knockoff in Hollywood, who was inspired by Jacob.

Such offensive strength. Much wow.

 

[Ebony Maw]

I'm not going to mention or address the points you made about Mira that much in this since I don't have an issue with Mira damaging Skullion. Its a tad weird given she couldn't hit him earlier in the fight, but she's got the hype to back it up (though I may consider this fight an outlier in retrospect if her hype doesn't check out). Its Elfman that I really have a bone to pick with.

Elfman suddenly having punches that are better than FDK Demo Fists is ridiculous considering that attack is still Natsu's standard finisher. Also sorry but this is going to be my last post on the matter, with the rankings soon to start it doesn't make much sense to continue since I'm definitely not going to budge on this and I don't think you will either. Its been fun!

They were even and then started getting their butts beats by Sting alone in DF. We didn't know the held back until they get up for R2.

That's was later tho. We didn't know they were holding back until they showed that they were.

This doesn't really matter but Sting and Rogue weren't even at all with Gajeel and Natsu, they got pressed back hard when they tried to take them in Base and had to enter DF after their Drives failed to change the course.

What does matter, and what my point was in the first place, is that we know Natsu and Gajeel were holding back in the first place. This doesn't change anything for Mira because we know she has better Souls anyway, but for Elfman? We don't have any reason to believe he's holding back drastically enough to justify the difference in damage output. I could buy it if him or Mira made any comments or he started fighting in a different Soul, but he just entered it again. Its not the sort of difference in damage output that I'd expect from Natsu fighting casually in base to getting serious, its the sort of difference between fighting casually in base to fighting in FDKM.

Elf never fought Madmole before so how would he know he needed to bring an attack that's stronger than a Demo-fist? They just met these guys so they weren't going to go all out from the jump. He hit Madmole and gets shocked out of his takeover. We then see him later attacking Madmole with multiple attacks without going out of takeover. He just wasn't expecting Madmole to be tough as he was and got his own attack reflected back at him. After that first punch he just took his punches up to another level.

Like I said above (and will say throughout my response) my issue is the severe difference in attack power.

Them holding back initially is believable, since literally no one in FT goes all out from the start, but jumping from not scratching Madmole to surpassing a Demo Fist? I don't buy it.

Even if he countered Ajeel's magic he had no feats on Ajeel's physicality. He was capable of one handing a jupiter shot and tanking Erza's sword strikes. Seeing that Elf's offense is actually high just goes to show that he had the power to actually beat Ajeel and it also reinforces that this guy did go heads with Erza and only lost due to getting side cocked.

This is probably where our main disagreement stems from - I don't rate Ajeel high in durability at all. Tanking Jupiter was something that Phantom arc Erza was able to do in her tank armour and Makarov tanked it in Titan. From what I remember Ajeel didn't tank Jupiter the first time anyway, he just deflected it.

Its also possible that Ajeel just suffered from how shitty the power scaling was in Alvarez. Another Spriggan that suffered similarly was Neinhart, he went from getting KO'd by a GC from bloodlusted Jellal to being KO'd by two hits from base Natsu. Likewise Jacob went from tanking a bunch of attacks from NaLu + an FDK Demo Fist to getting one-hit from a nameless punch by Mira. That's nowhere near the disgraces Ajeel and Neinhart were dealt, but it makes me think that the Spriggans were clearly jobbing towards the end of Alvarez (just like Zeref and Acno).

Honestly though my biggest problem with using Elfman beating Ajeel to justify Elfman now potentially having FDK Demo Fist punches is that your using another off-screen fight to hype a character. We have no idea how Elfman beat Ajeel, he could have got a million hits in and just worn him down or he could have two-shotted. As it stands, it wouldn't be enough to justify saying that his feats against Ajeel means that Elfman has punches that are >= FDK Demo Fist.

I'd be tempted to say his feats against Ajeel don't really matter anyway, he had numerable advantages against him and the characters have clearly improved after Alvarez.

We have to remember that Mira is modest of her own power and Eflman's with her so she is not going to go all out as she only fights at full power when she by herself.

Spoiler

Like I said, I'm not debating Mira here, its Elfman I have an issue with.

Mira has the ability to use gale force waves.

Spoiler

We also know that since both hurt Madmole they are hitting harder than a Demo-fist and that means their physical power can scale to Natsu physical strength. And Natsu created a huge gale force against Bakel with his punch.

Spoiler

Not to mention that Bakel could create a gale force to blow back Natsu's fire.

Spoiler

We all know both are better than Bakel by a lot lol. She must have started must have been punching or kicking so hard that she was bringing them up which we know wind is a direct counter to his logia. Mira and Elf just weren't fighting at their best in their forms at the beginning since this a new enemy and they just kicked it up once they saw they were actually tough.

Agreed that both are better than Bakel by a lot, but this part about gale forces is a slippery slope and a massive assumption. For one it took Wendy creating an actual tornado to stop Skullion's intangibility, so there's no reason to assume a gale wind would do it. Secondly, this is also assuming that Mira and Elfman are somehow coordinating this when Elfman would have had his hands full with Madmole. Thirdly, if every attack that can create a gale force leaves Skullion vulnerable than his intangibility sucks since the likes of Natsu, Erza, Laxus and Gildarts should be generating them constantly.

Unless Skullion is being assaulted by winds on the level of Wendy's Wind Storm then he should be fine. That said I'm not nearly as bothered by this compared to Elfman suddenly having offence that surpasses FDK Demo Fist.

As for the part I bolded:

1) Saying we know hurting Madmole means they are hitting harder than Demo Fist is pointless since I'm saying the feat itself is a massive outlier, thus their offence can't be at that level

2) It wouldn't just scale their Physical Power to Natsu's, since FDK Demo Fist involves a massive use of Magic

And before you point out that maintaining the Souls is the Magical part of that, that would actually make this more absurd because in that case both Mira and Elfman are easily maintaining Souls that offensively outclass FDK Demo Fist just with basic punches. Even for Mira I'd be sceptical of this, but Elfman? No way.

Why does it not make sense? Elfman was one of the people who was stated to train heavily. He just didn't get the actual screen time to show it so when he beat Ajeel it seem like bs, but this is just showing Elfman is actually powerful.

But this is another off screen fight though? Yes he trained but feats towards the end of Alvarez started getting strange, and us not even seeing the fight makes it a hard result to believe. Just like how you firmly believe Acno was jobbing against Jellal, I firmly believe Ajeel wasn't as strong as his fight with Erza indicated. Against her he had the advantage of Erza not being able to access her Water + Wind swords straight away plus the advantage of intangibility. Against Elfman he didn't have the advantage of intangibility since Elfman's Beast Soul could suck him up (it cleaned up Sand World which was massive, Ajeel likely would have been absorbed). For that reason he couldn't coast by on his intangibility like he did against Erza, and he couldn't slink around in Sand World. Ajeel was facing someone who was his perfect counter, and the one attack that would have worked was shown to fail because of Lisanna. Since Ajeel couldn't use his intangibility he could only try and take Elfman in CQC, which is gonna go badly since aside from physical strikes he can't affect him with anything.

Are these assumptions? Yes, but reasonable ones given the information we have.

Against Skullion and Madmole he has none of these advantages. As it is, if you're having to refer back to another off-screen fight to try and justify the result of an off-screen fight, then I think its fair to be sceptical about the result.

Why is hard to believe he held back? It's not like he was throwing his full arsenal at Madmole with just his first punch lol. We see them in a stalemate and see Elf still in his lion transformation which means he was getting shocked out of it when he was hitting Madmole.

You think it's unbelievable that Elf held back with the first punch? How would he know that Madmole had OP defense? I'm not saying Elf held back the entire fight, I'm just saying he stopped holding back after that first punch. He got surprised by his toughness and then we see him damaging which means he must have been holding back with the first punch and kicked it up to the next level. It's also not like Elf wasn't ready to fight some more either which just really reinforces that he was able to hurt Madmole.

The Strauss siblings held back in the first part and then kicked it up. Mira's resourceful so her finding a way to hit Skullion is not out of the world.

As I said earlier, its the extent to which he would have had to hold back to go from being hurt by striking Madmole to scratching him, when FDK Demo Fist couldn't leave a mark. I just don't see how you can believe Elfman suddenly has attacks that equal or surpass FDK Demo Fist when he's never shown anything near that level.

Hell, Natsu didn't even attempt to use another Demo Fist on him and tried to put him down by overpowering his heat resistance via FDK Purgatory, so it would seem Madmole's defence is too much for a non-DF Natsu to beat through. I don't see Elfman having the offence to damage Madmole.

They do, but they still give us info and feats from them. The fans who can't believe Elf is that strong are basically Gray and co while Mashima is Lucy trying tell us that Elf ain't a joke and he is not to be underestimated as he is strong lol.

Hey, if Elfman ends up being all that I'm ok with being wrong, I'm just saying that currently we have no reason to see Elfman having attacks that surpass FDK Demo Fist as legit. It could also easily be that Lucy is overestimating Elfman too since her nuke only KO'd Lisanna. Personally I'm not sure, but Elfman having the level of offence that you're saying he has doesn't make any sense to me given his previous feats.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

I never said you said they were immune to damage lol.

I struggle to grasp that when your whole post was about how they took damage before and you reiterate how they aren't immune to damage. For reference:

We saw Gray hit Skullion with a long sword. We saw Natsu damage Madmole they second time they fought and he even damaged Skullion. They’re not immune to damage so it makes sense that after fighting for a while Mira and Elfman would be able to damage them also. I repeat, they’re not immune to damage.

You just seemed confused because some characters got some scratches.

I'm confused because Madmole shrugged off an FDK Demo Fist and then got scratched by Elfman, a character that has never shown off offence comparable to Natsu's finishers.

Elfman and Mira were more damaged than Skullion and Madmole. When were the parties equally injured? That sounds like something you made up because Mira and Elfman were literally covered in more injuries since they couldn’t bypass the defenses and intangibility till later.

Except they already had scratches on them before Madmole and Skullion turned up thanks to Lucy's new nuke:

Spoiler

Going off that, either both parties did around an equal amount of damage or Skullion/Madmole did slightly better. Regardless, my issue is Madmole being marked at all.

Elfman casually hit Madmole at first then he bounced out of his soul. There’s nothing to suggest he didn’t just punch him harder afterwards,

Considering that Madmole was unmarked by an FDK Demo Fist, Natsu didn't attempt to use it again and instead chose to try and down him with sheer heat, I find it hard to believe Elfman scratched him at all.

he’s always been a powerhouse e.g he tanked his own attack thrown at him at twice the power

Which has nothing to do with offence, since that's a durability/endurance feat.

 

[grey matter]

If Jacob makes top 10, Imma rage

Imma edit my list now, lul

 

[Axiomus]

Jacob does not even deserve top 30 in terms of attack power. There are 11 Spriggans with better attack power than him lol.

 

[Jko]

Don't why August bothered to stop him from fighting Acno.

He didn't want the arc to end right there. Why do you think he sent Jacob to fight Alvarez Natsu, the God tier slayer?

 

[Axiomus]

STOP.

Jacob's attacks are so weak that Mirajane actually ended up in a better condition by the time the fight ended than when it started merely by recovering MP over time.

 

[grey matter]

He didn't want the arc to end right there. Why do you think he sent Jacob to fight Alvarez Natsu, the God tier slayer?

Jacob would've one shotted Acnologia with his clap hax lul. August saved Acnologia's ass

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2020 ---

Jacob does not even deserve top 30 in terms of attack power. There are 11 Spriggans with better attack power than him lol.

^^

 

[Jko]

Jacob does not even deserve top 30 in terms of attack power. There are 11 Spriggans with better attack power than him lol.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Made Base Natsu sweat the guy who could go one punch FH Zeref.

STOP.

Jacob's attacks are so weak that Mirajane actually ended up in a better condition by the time the fight ended than when it started merely by recovering MP over time.

People get stronger while they are in Base just ask Natsu

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2020 ---

Or Erza lmfao.

 

[Axiomus]

Made Base Natsu sweat the guy who could go one punch FH Zeref.

People get stronger while they are in Base just ask Natsu

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2020 ---

Or Erza lmfao.

PAH! Natsu had a goofy grin fighting Jacob half the time. He was sweating more when he saw Lucy in her underwear than the actual fight.

Also he finished Zeref with FDK

Also, Erza is at her strongest with the dragon slaying seal.

Also, Neinhart did more damage to Natsu and Brandish just flexing his wind magic than Jacob did to Lucy doing actual attacks.

 

[Jko]

PAH! Natsu had a goofy grin fighting Jacob half the time. He was sweating more when he saw Lucy in her underwear than the actual fight.

Also he finished Zeref with FDK

Also, Erza is at her strongest with the dragon slaying seal.

Also, Neinhart did more damage to Natsu and Brandish just flexing his wind magic than Jacob did to Lucy doing actual attacks.

Spoiler

We all know Natsu gets power ups from just seeing Lucy

He finished Jacob with FDK

She does so armor-less which supposed to weaken her stats, but somehow armor-less > anything she has. DSeal don't buff stats either

Neinheart couldn't even make Natsu grunt in pain and Lucy and Happy no sold those Neinheart attacks as well. Jacob didn't need no enhancements from Irene to fight God tier slayer Alvarez Natsu either

 

[Kiki]

Reception closed! Results soon!​

Thanks to all participants!
@Kouichi
@August_Lightning
@IamtherealMirajane
@Seven777
@grey matter
@Vis
@Tirl
@Jean Grey
@Takuan
@Axiomus
@Jko
@ald7mi_99
@Belserion
@Sevently
@Brandish
@lakhan220
@Kurumi Tokisaki
@Ebony Maw
@LighteningLord
@Biri Biri
@Zelefomavis
@atlantisreturns

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2020 ---

The ranking is done, but I am still waiting for certain someone. Maybe he forgot that dead chars are not eligible. Hopefully he replies my pm soon..

 

[grey matter]

Reception closed! Results soon!​

Thanks to all participants!
@Kouichi
@August_Lightning
@IamtherealMirajane
@Seven777
@grey matter
@Vis
@Tirl
@Jean Grey
@Takuan
@Axiomus
@Jko
@ald7mi_99
@Belserion
@Sevently
@Brandish
@lakhan220
@Kurumi Tokisaki
@Ebony Maw
@LighteningLord
@Biri Biri
@Zelefomavis
@atlantisreturns

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2020 ---

The ranking is done, but I am still waiting for certain someone. Maybe he forgot that dead chars are not eligible. Hopefully he replies my pm soon..

Shit, I was gonna edit my list with Jacob THE GOAT

Smh, closed

 

[Kiki]

Shit, I was gonna edit my list with Jacob THE GOAT

Smh, closed

lol you still can edit yours. go go go

 

[grey matter]

lol you still can edit yours. go go go

DONE!